Wack jobs & their 911 Conspiracy theory !

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center] [/center]




[size=3][u][quote]Subject: 911 Conspiracy theory Wack job belief!!!!!
by Gerard Holmgren
Jan 2003[/u][/size]


Body: Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one , often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. "The CIA killed Hendrix" " The Pope had John Lennon murdered ", "Hitler was half Werewolf", "Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone" etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it. So its hardly surprising that the events of Sept 11 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is - sadly - a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

[b][u]One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11[/u], and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs[/b] is that it was [b]carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers,[/b] [b]masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden[/b], [b]with no apparent motivation other than that they "hate our freedoms." [/b]

[b]Never a group of people to be bothered by facts[/b], the [b]perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media[/b] to the extent that [b]a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell. [/b]

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

[b]These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. [/b]

Blindly ignoring the stand down of the US air-force, the insider trading on airline stocks - linked to the CIA, the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, [b]the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours , crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.[/b]

[b]The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposturous stories to distract from its core silliness,[/b] and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it, and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog , they then re-invent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as "the fruit loop" and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical conclusions.

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the 4 planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

[b]The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist.[/b] For a start, [b]they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.[/b] If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist. With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID ( but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched ? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.

[b]"Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?" [/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

[b]"A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get." [/b]

[b]"Very strange", thinks the security officer. "That's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess..." [/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane? But by this time , the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis.They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the crash scenes. "So there!" they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just a revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? [b]So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them?[/b] However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated, and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, "Who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!" And so the whole loop starts again. "Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?"

"You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!" And so on...

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion , the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

[b]"Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers? "[/b] The answer of course is that its just one of those strange co-incidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen...

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The "improbability drive" , in which [b]they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to support it[/b], shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world). [b]There is a principle called "Occam's razor" which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.[/b] Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.

[b]Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with with the silly story of the 19 invisible Arabs,[/b] we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.

[b]Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is near impossible.[/b] [b]The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking.[/b] Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that Sept 11, [b]the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives,[/b] and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously), but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. [b]Not just on one plane, but on all four.[/b] At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breath taking skill and certainty to their fiery end, all four pilots unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah. Apart from their psychotic hatred of "our freedoms" , [b]it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this.[/b] [b]Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar -really impeccable Islamic behavior[/b] - and then got up at 5am the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history. This also requires us to believe that they were even [b]clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport.[/b] [b]We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find. [/b]

It gets better. [b]Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators,[/b] but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom. If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear [b]why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to US intelligence services by doing the training in Florida,[/b] [b]rather than somewhere in the Middle East,[/b] [b]but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist [/b] , too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable.

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and mange to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane? This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.

[b]There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable![/b] Sluggishly combustible jet fuel which is basically kerosine, and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 C has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourizing 65 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of kerosine - let alone the boiling point - which is what would be required to vapourize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminium to be accounted for. In excess of 15lbs of metal for each gallon of kerosine.

[b]For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as "mumbo jumbo".[/b] This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of kerosine, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, this very minute. [b]Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourized into nothing from an exploding fuel load,[/b] the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.

[b]"Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact." they state with pompous certainty. "Watch any Bruce Willis movie." [/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

"Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation - other than Bruce Willis movies ?"

At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.

"Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling." they counter with a sly grin.

Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before and since, and not vapourized into nothing.

"But not big planes, with that much fuel ", they shriek in hysterical denial.

Or that much metal to vapourize.

"Yes but not hijacked planes!"

"Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?"

"Now you're just being silly".

[b]Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vapourize into nothing.[/b] What's so special about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. "Its a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact."

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a "well known fact" and that "its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to", the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves ( if not too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourization of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit. loop...

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosine. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant veritcal collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosine.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosine which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. [b]You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vapourizing a 65 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.[/b] [b]When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once[/b] , something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosine is enough to

:completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft

:have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel ( melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel )

:still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building.

This kerosine really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those kerosine heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourized. And never again will I take kerosine lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vapourized into nothing along with with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosine melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire -therefore, not particularly hot, they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.

Since they're already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and re-defined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

[b]The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that its physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors.[/b] [b]But according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11.[/b] It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why.

"Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir"

"No miss, the kerosine heater blew up and vapourized everything in the street, except for my passport."

[b]"You see sir, the schoolbus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms." [/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term "creative science" and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly kerosine was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat. (Although 2000 C isn't really required, 100C will generally do the job.) This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

[b]That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. [/b] [b]But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust[/b] that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vapourized by the fuel tank explosion maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time.

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of 5 rings of building, each with a space inbetween. Each ring of building is about 30 to 35 ft deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring. The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat circular hole of about a 12 ft diameter through three rings ( six walls).A little later a section of wall about 65 ft wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact had a wing span of 125 ft and a length of 155 ft, and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly physically impossible.

But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell - why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well ? [b]I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science.[/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] But to the conspiracy theorist, this is "mumbo jumbo". It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it "must be wrong" although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned.They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourized by it's exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior. (That's a wonderful fruit loop.) Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 ft deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage). [b]As for what happened to the wings - here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.[/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

[b]When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly, [/b] [b](ignoring the undamaged lawn)[/b] while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an "irrecoverable angle." How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in stupidity.

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. [b]Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall,[/b] just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

[b]At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on Sept 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in "retaliation" are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged. [/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [b]Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia. [/b]


[b][u]It's time to stop loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11. [/u] [/b]


[i]This work may be freely copied and distributed without permission as long as it not for commercial use. Please include the author's name.[/quote][/i]



[url="http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm"]http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm[/url]

[|Bengal Migration|]

Nothing short of fantastic.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='291878' date='Jul 10 2006, 03:17 AM']Nothing short of [s]fantastic[/s] insane.[/quote]

[Honkey]

Great article.. Really makes you wonder about all the Bushback Mountain followers

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]Nothing short of [s]fantastic[/s] insane.[/quote]


[b]thanks for proving the articles point .... have fun with your whacky theory ... just don't expect the rest of us to believe it with you [/b]

[Abu-Zayd]

I am surprised Bunghole didn't say it was "mumbo jumbo".

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='292011' date='Jul 10 2006, 02:53 PM']I am surprised Bunghole didn't say it was "mumbo jumbo".[/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='292011' date='Jul 10 2006, 12:53 PM']I am surprised Bunghole didn't say it was "mumbo jumbo".[/quote]
Mumbo Jumbo just like the "wacky conspiracy theory" that radical Islamists blew up the subway in London, right?
Or the trains in Madrid?
Al-Quadea affiliated groups claimed responsibility, and there is evidence to support that....just like 9/11!
Believe whatever you want, I really don't care anymore.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292017' date='Jul 10 2006, 03:04 PM']Believe whatever you want, I really don't care anymore..... these facts are all mumbo jumbo[/quote]


[center] [/center]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='292026' date='Jul 10 2006, 01:11 PM'][center] [/center][/quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the whole 9/11 thing.
If our government really had direct involvement, wouldn't that have come out somehow by now....other than by speculative op-ed pieces by shady news sources?

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292042' date='Jul 10 2006, 04:01 PM']
We'll have to agree to disagree on the whole 9/11 thing.
If our government really had direct involvement, wouldn't that have come out somehow by now....other than by speculative op-ed pieces by shady news sources?[/quote]


Are you really that naive about how much the government controls? Besides that, are you really that naive about who controls the government? And besides that, are you really that naive about who controls the media?

There are official portions of the government that control what is transmitted via the media. There have been programs conducted by the government to infiltrate and control news rooms for since before there was television - Operation Mockingbird, etc.

Talking about how the system transcends even the government would take too long, so let's just keep it to the government itself - or elements thereof, which we'll call "the government" - for now. Does it make any sense that "the government" would commit a crime of this magnitude without using it's control over the media to ensure that disclosure is limited to news sources that the average yokel considers too shady to listen too? Are you really going to argue that the government doing the job of covering its ass that anybody in their right mind would do if the stakes were this high is proof that it didn't happen?

The idea that the government was not somehow complicit depends for support on the lack of evidence that it was complicit, not on notions that such acts are beyond the moral universe of "the government" or that surely it couldn't be kept a secret. There is no such lack, and it hasn't been kept a secret.

Just remember a few elementary things about media people: 1) they don't want to lose access to their sources 2) they don't want to get black-balled by ownership and management 3) they tend not to get hired if they have to be told what not to do and say to maintain access to their sources and avoid being black-balled by ownership and management. If it's a really big caper with really big stakes that will unravel the whole system if it's disclosed, and the corporate-beholden government is behind it, you can pretty well bet your ass that the corporate media is going to do its part to squelch disclosure and discovery as much as it can.

This is pretty elementary stuff here. Occam's Razor falls on the side of at least suspicion of some level of government complicity. Nutso conspiracy theories hold the government completely and unquestionably innocent.

[|Bunghole|]

Isn't it entirely possible that the elected officials in government occasionally get something right? Or tell the (mostly) truth about something of this magnitude?
You guys on here seem to simply oppose anything the government says or does just on principle without even giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.
Everything and anything is fair game to the likes of you all in terms of viewing it as a conspiracy if it doesn't mesh with your outlook. Get a grip!
Many things have happened in the name of 9/11 that I don't agree with....it doesn't mean that we weren't attacked by someone OUTSIDE of our government.
There are plenty of folks that we have given ample reason to attack us, and I believe that they have done so, and will again.
I hope we endeavor to kill them all before they can do so, regardless of whom they are.

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292127' date='Jul 10 2006, 09:00 PM']Isn't it entirely possible that the elected officials in government occasionally get something right? Or tell the (mostly) truth about something of this magnitude?
You guys on here seem to simply oppose anything the government says or does just on principle without even giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.
Everything and anything is fair game to the likes of you all in terms of viewing it as a conspiracy if it doesn't mesh with your outlook. Get a grip!
Many things have happened in the name of 9/11 that I don't agree with....it doesn't mean that we weren't attacked by someone OUTSIDE of our government.
There are plenty of folks that we have given ample reason to attack us, and I believe that they have done so, and will again.
I hope we endeavor to kill them all before they can do so, regardless of whom they are.[/quote]


It's entirely possible that elected officials in government occasionally get something right or tell (mostly) the truth about something -- probably not something of this magnitude though. And just because it's possible doesn't mean it's probable. What you seem to miss is how early the process of corruption and occupation of the US government began and how it has progressed. It was always flawed - perhaps fatally so, but particularly since the early 20th Century, the robber barons and their cohorts have redoubled their efforts to bend the Republic to their will. The process is so advanced now that everything and anything has to be fair game in terms of viewing it as at least a potential conspiracy - or more importantly a potential PART of the standing conspiracy to essentially destroy the Republic - fatally flawed as it always was - from within.

Sure there are plenty of people that you have insisted on giving ample reason to attack you (Why in the fuck don't you insist that something be done about all the ill will that's generated in your name? Duh!) , but there are also plenty enough people that have their own reasons for attacking you from WITHIN your government. I believe that they have done so, and will again. Those are the most dangerous attackers - especially now. Denial will be your undoing, and unfortunately, you'll drag the rest of us down with you.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='292140' date='Jul 10 2006, 07:38 PM']It's entirely possible that elected officials in government occasionally get something right or tell (mostly) the truth about something -- probably not something of this magnitude though. And just because it's possible doesn't mean it's probable. What you seem to miss is how early the process of corruption and occupation of the US government began and how it has progressed. It was always flawed - perhaps fatally so, but particularly since the early 20th Century, the robber barons and their cohorts have redoubled their efforts to bend the Republic to their will. The process is so advanced now that everything and anything has to be fair game in terms of viewing it as at least a potential conspiracy - or more importantly a potential PART of the standing conspiracy to essentially destroy the Republic - fatally flawed as it always was - from within.

Sure there are plenty of people that you have insisted on giving ample reason to attack you (Why in the fuck don't you insist that something be done about all the ill will that's generated in your name? Duh!) , but there are also plenty enough people that have their own reasons for attacking you from WITHIN your government. I believe that they have done so, and will again. Those are the most dangerous attackers - especially now. Denial will be your undoing, and unfortunately, you'll drag the rest of us down with you.[/quote]
But why? Are profiteers so shortsighted that they only care about the now and don't even foresee a future for their own wicked children?
If it is indeed a house of cards, and has been since the early 20th century, then how long can it possibly be propped up without some kind of oversight from those "few" non-corrupted government employees (recall: the govt employs millions of people, they all certainly aren't part of some vast far-reaching conspiracy and honestly work for lower than civilian wages for the sake of the common good, or because they are inept.... )
But....what long term interest is served by those that seek to exploit our country from within, and why would the government, with it's many sage and wise advisors (like, on the Supreme Court, and long-standing Senators) stand for it?
If it is as obvious as you and others proclaim, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone else? Or are you privy to a way of thinking or information that the rest of us "sheep" are not?
I still have faith that there are those in our government that represent their constituents, and will continue to do so.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292144' date='Jul 10 2006, 09:47 PM']I still have faith that there are those in our government that represent their constituents, and will continue to do so.[/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]


[b]wow this is becoming a fucking comedy hour in here [/b]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='292148' date='Jul 10 2006, 07:49 PM'][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]
[b]wow this is becoming a fucking comedy hour in here [/b][/quote]
You said it first!
If John Edwards were President....you'd still be bitching about Israel because guess what....in addition to the fact that your "boy" was an ambulance chaser, the policy towards Israel would be the same...
I'm not talking Presidents here, asshole....I'm speaking towards the likes of Congressmen and women whom aren't as tainted by the big money that can actually make a difference...if only they were as "informed" as you.....where's your Obama now? Speaking out against the US-led Mossad atrocity that was 9/11? (And I like Barak Obama, actually....)
Didn't think so......

[Abu-Zayd]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292127' date='Jul 10 2006, 09:00 PM'][b]Isn't it entirely possible that the elected officials in government occasionally get something right? Or tell the (mostly) truth[/b] about something of this magnitude?

There are plenty of folks that we have given ample reason to attack us, and I believe that they have done so, and will again.
I hope [b]we endeavor [/b] to kill them all before they can do so, regardless of whom they are.[/quote]


A rational study of history is needed not just for you, Bung, but for the majority of the world, much less the 'education-ized' americans. A rational study means an analysis ignoring the 'officially sanctioned' version of history, ignoring the dialectic of fear and guilt, without fear of being branded something, and only armed with common sense and a sincere search for **what actually happened to get us to where we are**.

How many are willing to undertake such a stance? Some, but most follow the herd.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='292162' date='Jul 10 2006, 08:09 PM']A rational study of history is needed not just for you, Bung, but for the majority of the world, much less the 'education-ized' americans. A rational study means an analysis ignoring the 'officially sanctioned' version of history, ignoring the dialectic of fear and guilt, without fear of being branded something, and only armed with common sense and a sincere search for **what actually happened to get us to where we are**.

How many are willing to undertake such a stance? Some, but most follow the herd.[/quote]
But what about the same logic being applied to nations of Islamic origin? Are you trying to insinuate that America made all this up and that there aren't people all over the globe, most notably radical Islamists, that are happy to oblige our deaths?
Ignoring the "sanctioned" version of history doesn't mean ignoring the atrocities that are, were and will be perpetratd by those that exist in a religious vacuum.
So do you support the Taliban and their pursuit of the subjugation of women, or, as an American, do you think that women should be allowed to be their own persons?

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292144' date='Jul 10 2006, 09:47 PM']But why? Are profiteers so shortsighted that they only care about the now and don't even foresee a future for their own wicked children?
If it is indeed a house of cards, and has been since the early 20th century, then how long can it possibly be propped up without some kind of oversight from those "few" non-corrupted government employees (recall: the govt employs millions of people, they all certainly aren't part of some vast far-reaching conspiracy and honestly work for lower than civilian wages for the sake of the common good, or because they are inept.... )
But....what long term interest is served by those that seek to exploit our country from within, and why would the government, with it's many sage and wise advisors (like, on the Supreme Court, and long-standing Senators) stand for it?
If it is as obvious as you and others proclaim, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone else? Or are you privy to a way of thinking or information that the rest of us "sheep" are not?
I still have faith that there are those in our government that represent their constituents, and will continue to do so.[/quote]


It's actually fairly obvious to quite a few people. Most of them are preoccupied with their daily existence and only think about it in bits and pieces, but if you don't surround yourself with people that parrot the party line, you'll find skeptics in all walks of life. If you know just a little about how conspiracies work, and I only profess to know just a little, you'll know that the scope and impact of a conspiracy is not necessarilly dependent upon a whole lot of people knowing the aims of the conspiracy in order to further them. A "hub and spoke" conspiracy involves a small core of people actually directing the conspiracy. These people channel their orders and influence through a limited set of operators throughout what may be a huge set of institutions.

It doesn't matter if there are those in your government that represent their constituents if they're not the ones in control. There have been long-standing (and not-so-long-standing) Senators, Congressmen and other officials that from time to time have attempted to stand against these predations with varying degrees of awareness of an overarching conspiracy being behind them. Sen. Byrd doesn't deal with the overarching conspiratorial aspect, but he has enough sense to recognize that there's a rat in the cheesebox. Congressman Larry P. McDonald started speaking out about the overarching conspiracy, and he found himself on KAL007. Congressman Louis T. McFadden attempted early on to oppose this conspiracy - particularly the role of the Federal Reserve in it, and after several attempts on his life, he succombed to a sudden heart attack. Charles Lindberg even attempted to oppose it as a congressman. The nation's first 3rd party originated due to recognition of the seeds of conspiracy. Lincoln, before his death recognized the direction of the conspiracy, lamenting that corporations would arise and manipulate the fears and prejudices of the public and destroy the Union that so much blood had been shed to preserve. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et al recognized the seeds of conspiracy and the general motivations and tactics that could and would be used to destroy the nation from within if the public failed to be vigilant.

The Council on Foreign Relations was formed in the mid 1920's precisely becaus Congressional resistance to the conspiracy was so strong. The strength of resistance is obscurred by the fact that, then as now, people in the position to actually make a difference didn't always dare talk about it publicly - but they fought the policies that furthered the ends of the conspiracy. Congressmen fought central banking schemes for over a century, knowing how they actually worked in Europe. Congressmen fought entanglement in foreign wars as they had been instructed by Washington. They rejected the League of Nations. They didn't do these things willy-nilly. There was more awareness of the dangers, ulterior motives and centers of power that lurked behind some of these policies than there is now.

But people wittingly and often unwittingly loyal to the aims of the conspirators already had considerable power, and this was the case really from the beginning of the Republic. That's why things like the struggle over a national bank and resultant control of currency went back so far. The conspirators eventually involved the wealth and influence of the robber barrons, which was really a function of European capital expanding its own revolutionary sense of organizing global society, global governance and the global economy. The power elite organized itself and educated its members around a set of ideas - ideas that run counter to the lovely-sounding stuff that Americans cleave to. Why would people that are not just rich, not just REAL rich, but filthy, stinking rich, be content to have the unwashed masses perpetually striving to politically wrest control of resources away from them so that they could be more democratically allocated according to merit and other such rot?

Notwithstanding that many of the great fortunes were the result of drug smuggling, slaving, counterfeiting and loan-sharking, robbery and fraud, and whatnot, the moneyed elite saw itself as prudent, responsible and worthy, and the masses as a bunch of "useless eaters." And that's what they taught their children and their children's children and so forth. And by this time, even the old bloodline nobility had to at the very least tolerate their clout on an operational level. These poeple may not all agree with each other, but they agree that people like you and me aren't shit, so when you talk about "we" as you discuss what the government's doing, you'd do well to rethink just what part of that might be considered "us" and what part might be considered "them." Because there are people that call the shots that are loathe to consider themselves "us;" they want to be "them" - and sometimes they are - like ol' Mr.-related-to-the-Queen Bush himself.

Anyway, it's not that there has been no resistance from within the government itself, it's that the propagandizing, bribing, threatening, discrediting, killing and so forth has caused meaningful resistance to wane over time as the conspiracy itself has grown, spread, more deeply embedded itself. All of that is narrative rather than analysis, but you get the idea.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='292170' date='Jul 10 2006, 10:32 PM']It's actually fairly obvious to quite a few people. Most of them are preoccupied with their daily existence and only think about it in bits and pieces, but if you don't surround yourself with people that parrot the party line, you'll find skeptics in all walks of life. If you know just a little about how conspiracies work, and I only profess to know just a little, you'll know that the scope and impact of a conspiracy is not necessarilly dependent upon a whole lot of people knowing the aims of the conspiracy in order to further them. A "hub and spoke" conspiracy involves a small core of people actually directing the conspiracy. These people channel their orders and influence through a limited set of operators throughout what may be a huge set of institutions.

It doesn't matter if there are those in your government that represent their constituents if they're not the ones in control. There have been long-standing (and not-so-long-standing) Senators, Congressmen and other officials that from time to time have attempted to stand against these predations with varying degrees of awareness of an overarching conspiracy being behind them. Sen. Byrd doesn't deal with the overarching conspiratorial aspect, but he has enough sense to recognize that there's a rat in the cheesebox. Congressman Larry P. McDonald started speaking out about the overarching conspiracy, and he found himself on KAL007. Congressman Louis T. McFadden attempted early on to oppose this conspiracy - particularly the role of the Federal Reserve in it, and after several attempts on his life, he succombed to a sudden heart attack. Charles Lindberg even attempted to oppose it as a congressman. The nation's first 3rd party originated due to recognition of the seeds of conspiracy. Lincoln, before his death recognized the direction of the conspiracy, lamenting that corporations would arise and manipulate the fears and prejudices of the public and destroy the Union that so much blood had been shed to preserve. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et al recognized the seeds of conspiracy and the general motivations and tactics that could and would be used to destroy the nation from within if the public failed to be vigilant.

The Council on Foreign Relations was formed in the mid 1920's precisely becaus Congressional resistance to the conspiracy was so strong. The strength of resistance is obscurred by the fact that, then as now, people in the position to actually make a difference didn't always dare talk about it publicly - but they fought the policies that furthered the ends of the conspiracy. Congressmen fought central banking schemes for over a century, knowing how they actually worked in Europe. Congressmen fought entanglement in foreign wars as they had been instructed by Washington. They rejected the League of Nations. They didn't do these things willy-nilly. There was more awareness of the dangers, ulterior motives and centers of power that lurked behind some of these policies than there is now.

But people wittingly and often unwittingly loyal to the aims of the conspirators already had considerable power, and this was the case really from the beginning of the Republic. That's why things like the struggle over a national bank and resultant control of currency went back so far. The conspirators eventually involved the wealth and influence of the robber barrons, which was really a function of European capital expanding its own revolutionary sense of organizing global society, global governance and the global economy. The power elite organized itself and educated its members around a set of ideas - ideas that run counter to the lovely-sounding stuff that Americans cleave to. Why would people that are not just rich, not just REAL rich, but filthy, stinking rich, be content to have the unwashed masses perpetually striving to politically wrest control of resources away from them so that they could be more democratically allocated according to merit and other such rot?

Notwithstanding that many of the great fortunes were the result of drug smuggling, slaving, counterfeiting and loan-sharking, robbery and fraud, and whatnot, the moneyed elite saw itself as prudent, responsible and worthy, and the masses as a bunch of "useless eaters." And that's what they taught their children and their children's children and so forth. And by this time, even the old bloodline nobility had to at the very least tolerate their clout on an operational level. These poeple may not all agree with each other, but they agree that people like you and me aren't shit, so when you talk about "we" as you discuss what the government's doing, you'd do well to rethink just what part of that might be considered "us" and what part might be considered "them." Because there are people that call the shots that are loathe to consider themselves "us;" they want to be "them" - and sometimes they are - like ol' Mr.-related-to-the-Queen Bush himself.

Anyway, it's not that there has been no resistance from within the government itself, it's that the propagandizing, bribing, threatening, discrediting, killing and so forth has caused meaningful resistance to wane over time as the conspiracy itself has grown, spread, more deeply embedded itself. All of that is narrative rather than analysis, but you get the idea.[/quote]



[center][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]

[b]people should print this off and learn something [/center] [/b]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='292173' date='Jul 10 2006, 08:35 PM'][center][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]

[b]people should print this off and learn something [/center] [/b][/quote]
You should think for yourself.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='292170' date='Jul 10 2006, 08:32 PM']It's actually fairly obvious to quite a few people. Most of them are preoccupied with their daily existence and only think about it in bits and pieces, but if you don't surround yourself with people that parrot the party line, you'll find skeptics in all walks of life. If you know just a little about how conspiracies work, and I only profess to know just a little, you'll know that the scope and impact of a conspiracy is not necessarilly dependent upon a whole lot of people knowing the aims of the conspiracy in order to further them. A "hub and spoke" conspiracy involves a small core of people actually directing the conspiracy. These people channel their orders and influence through a limited set of operators throughout what may be a huge set of institutions.

It doesn't matter if there are those in your government that represent their constituents if they're not the ones in control. There have been long-standing (and not-so-long-standing) Senators, Congressmen and other officials that from time to time have attempted to stand against these predations with varying degrees of awareness of an overarching conspiracy being behind them. Sen. Byrd doesn't deal with the overarching conspiratorial aspect, but he has enough sense to recognize that there's a rat in the cheesebox. Congressman Larry P. McDonald started speaking out about the overarching conspiracy, and he found himself on KAL007. Congressman Louis T. McFadden attempted early on to oppose this conspiracy - particularly the role of the Federal Reserve in it, and after several attempts on his life, he succombed to a sudden heart attack. Charles Lindberg even attempted to oppose it as a congressman. The nation's first 3rd party originated due to recognition of the seeds of conspiracy. Lincoln, before his death recognized the direction of the conspiracy, lamenting that corporations would arise and manipulate the fears and prejudices of the public and destroy the Union that so much blood had been shed to preserve. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et al recognized the seeds of conspiracy and the general motivations and tactics that could and would be used to destroy the nation from within if the public failed to be vigilant.

The Council on Foreign Relations was formed in the mid 1920's precisely becaus Congressional resistance to the conspiracy was so strong. The strength of resistance is obscurred by the fact that, then as now, people in the position to actually make a difference didn't always dare talk about it publicly - but they fought the policies that furthered the ends of the conspiracy. Congressmen fought central banking schemes for over a century, knowing how they actually worked in Europe. Congressmen fought entanglement in foreign wars as they had been instructed by Washington. They rejected the League of Nations. They didn't do these things willy-nilly. There was more awareness of the dangers, ulterior motives and centers of power that lurked behind some of these policies than there is now.

But people wittingly and often unwittingly loyal to the aims of the conspirators already had considerable power, and this was the case really from the beginning of the Republic. That's why things like the struggle over a national bank and resultant control of currency went back so far. The conspirators eventually involved the wealth and influence of the robber barrons, which was really a function of European capital expanding its own revolutionary sense of organizing global society, global governance and the global economy. The power elite organized itself and educated its members around a set of ideas - ideas that run counter to the lovely-sounding stuff that Americans cleave to. Why would people that are not just rich, not just REAL rich, but filthy, stinking rich, be content to have the unwashed masses perpetually striving to politically wrest control of resources away from them so that they could be more democratically allocated according to merit and other such rot?

Notwithstanding that many of the great fortunes were the result of drug smuggling, slaving, counterfeiting and loan-sharking, robbery and fraud, and whatnot, the moneyed elite saw itself as prudent, responsible and worthy, and the masses as a bunch of "useless eaters." And that's what they taught their children and their children's children and so forth. And by this time, even the old bloodline nobility had to at the very least tolerate their clout on an operational level. These poeple may not all agree with each other, but they agree that people like you and me aren't shit, so when you talk about "we" as you discuss what the government's doing, you'd do well to rethink just what part of that might be considered "us" and what part might be considered "them." Because there are people that call the shots that are loathe to consider themselves "us;" they want to be "them" - and sometimes they are - like ol' Mr.-related-to-the-Queen Bush himself.

Anyway, it's not that there has been no resistance from within the government itself, it's that the propagandizing, bribing, threatening, discrediting, killing and so forth has caused meaningful resistance to wane over time as the conspiracy itself has grown, spread, more deeply embedded itself. All of that is narrative rather than analysis, but you get the idea.[/quote]
I have to get up to serve my corporate master soon, so I will reply when and if my master allows it....

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='292176' date='Jul 10 2006, 10:42 PM']You should think for yourself.[/quote]


[b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]


Notice the author of this statement .....


this from the guy who has shown the complete inability to think for himself lately. What happened to the critically thinking Bung that asked your Dad a good question recently ? Where the hell did that Bung go ? Just because your dad gave a bad answer doesn't mean that you should have just tucked your tail between your legs and towed the line again. You were making strides it seemed ... now who the hell knows where your mind is.

I applauded his statement ... because I was aware of most of it already .... and thus I am always happy to see others validate the true version of history. It is very rare in todays world ... and thus guys like me and Coy are suprised when we run across eachother ... it is kind of like seeing the Yeti amongst the proverbial American Idol audience. [/b]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='292180' date='Jul 10 2006, 08:46 PM'][b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]
Notice the author of this statement .....
this from the guy who has shown the complete inability to think for himself lately. What happened to the critically thinking Bung that asked your Dad a good question recently ? Where the hell did that Bung go ? Just because your dad gave a bad answer doesn't mean that you should have just tucked your tail between your legs and towed the line again. You were making strides it seemed ... now who the hell knows where your mind is.

I applauded his statement ... because I was aware of most of it already .... and thus I am always happy to see others validate the true version of history. It is very rare in todays world ... and thus guys like me and Coy are suprised when we run across eachother ... it is kind of like seeing the Yeti amongst the proverbial American Idol audience. [/b][/quote]
It is amusing how you liken yourself to some mythical beast.
However, I AM STILL a critical thinker, I have NEVER toed ANYONE'S party line and I certainly don't need to be lectured on it by a tattooed pipsqueak in college like yourself.
I have an open mind, if I didn't, I wouldn't have posed the why's and heretofore's to Coy.
I liked Coy's response, and intend to respond to it in kind when I have more time.
My Dad didn't necessarily give me a bad answer...it was HIS answer, and I didn't necessarily agree with it, but he's entitled to his (very well educated by war, college, life experience, political experience) opinion as are you and I.
He and I have been arguing the point ever since.

[Guest bengalrick]

why do you guys sound like enemies of america? seriously, this conspiracy shit is getting old w/ no fucking evidence... this zionist talk is seriously mind numbing... if your goals were to "enlighten" us about how bad jews are, i want to enlighten you brainwashed muthafuckers that EVERY RACE, RELIGION, AND COUNTRY has bad apples in it, has made mistakes, and probably every one of them deserve to be destroyed under the same pretext as you guys use for israel losing their land...

using race and religion as "guidelines" of how moral someone is, is also being extremely biased and i will personally fight against that sort of discrimination... whether it be from crazy ass leftists how think the zionists are trying to take over the world by brainwashing us through our media and pulling the 9.11 attacks and managing to pin the whole thing an 19 innocent passengers, or the crazy ass rightists who think that the muslim religion is trying to take over the world and instill universal islamic law forcefully on us... both are fucking wack jobs, and are extremely dangerous... you guys are equally fucked up...