Guest ONYX Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 [quote]What is usually called "The Confederate Flag" or "The Confederate Battle Flag" (actually the Navy Jack as explained above) is still a widely recognized symbol. The display of the flag is a controversial and very emotional issue, generally because of disagreement over exactly what it symbolizes. To many in the US South it is a symbol of their heritage and pride in their ancestors who held out during years of war under terrible odds and sacrifice. Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery, or of the Jim Crow laws established by the many Southern states enforcing racial segregation within their borders for almost a century later, or even as a symbol of rebellion against the United States government. As a result, there have been numerous political fights over the use of the Confederate battle flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the south's resistance to northern political dominance generally; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement, when protecting segregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance. Over time the flag has acquired a wide range of meanings, some apparently contradicting one another. Since the CSA was fighting for independence during the Civil War, much as the United States did during the Revolutionary War, the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty. Since the issues of slavery and, later, segregation, are deeply intertwined with the CSA and the Civil Rights Movement, the Confederate Flag has connotations of racism and slavery. On April 12, 2000, the South Carolina state senate passed a bill to remove the flag of the former Confederate States of America from on top of the statehouse dome by a majority vote of 36 to 7. Placed there in 1962, according to one local news report, "the new bill specified that a more traditional version of the battle flag would be flown in front of the Capitol next to a monument honoring fallen Confederate soldiers." The bill then went to the House, where it encountered some difficulty. But on May 18, 2000, after the bill was modified to ensure that the height of the flag's new pole would be 30 feet, it was passed by a majority of 66 to 43, and Governor Jim Hodges signed the bill five days later. On July 1, the flag was removed from the South Carolina statehouse. Current state law prohibits the flag's removal from the statehouse grounds without additional legislation. Police were placed to guard this flag after several attempts by individuals to remove it. Some regard the flag as easier to see in that location than when it was atop the State House Dome. More recent studies, however, show changing attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag, particularly among blacks—perhaps due to media reports of the issue stemming from legislative battles regarding the flag's official use in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina. In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans polled favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol. Cooper & Knotts, 2005 As battle lines over the use of the flag have (again) hardened, the NAACP and many civil rights groups have attacked the flag. Other groups such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans have actively protested the use of any Confederate flags by the Ku Klux Klan and other hate groups, stating that the hate groups are blemishing the memory of the ancestors of the SCV. Some members of the SCV have even faced down Klansmen at their rallies and marches, to protest the inappropriate usage of these flags.[3]The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued use of the battle flag on its Statehouse grounds. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Controversy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Controversy[/url][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 [center][img]http://www.radicalruss.net/blog/images/black-confederates.jpg[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img] [/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ONYX Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='426504' date='Jan 13 2007, 02:07 PM'][center][img]http://www.radicalruss.net/blog/images/black-confederates.jpg[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//13.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//13.gif[/img] [/center][/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]Those are just pictures from Clarence Thomas' family reunion. [/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 There is no argument that anyone can make for the existence of that flag. If people say that it's hurtful because of the past, then it's hurtful. Get rid of them, Billy-Bob. Although you could reasonably make the same argument against the American flag being racist, hurtful, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi32 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 well heres my 2 cents I was a history major in college, specialized in ww2 and civil war, (my areas of study) I live in kentucky, Ky was a border state and where the true brother against brother was. On my fathers side of the family, they were in the union army based out of cincinnati. my mothers side was confederate based out of richmond ky and ten. so,.. a few facts, cause this is the one thing i know about 1) only 2% of the southern people owned slaves. slaves were too exspensive. most people were poor farmers who could barly make it. 2) goes alone with #1, 30-40% of confederate soldiers didnt have shoes,..mo $ 3) the civil war was NOT about slavery. I hate to burst your bubble. The civil war was about ... 4)The north wanted to PRESERVE THE UNION. not end slavery. 5)The south wanted to make its own country. It wanted States rights vrs federal rights. that was the 2 different point of views. 6)A quote from Lincohn, "If I could preserve the union and keep slavery, i would" 1863. Lincohn cared little about slavery. 7)there were more black soldiers that fought for the south than black soldiers that fought for the north. 8) if you asked any confederate soldier in 1862 why they were fighting, they would say to defend there home, or for states rights...not slavery. Luckily both of my ancestors survived the war (im here), and it worked out. But slavery was not the cause of the war of northern aggression. Slavery had a part of the war, of course, but people do not study history tend to believe that it was the good northerners trying to free the slaves. thats wrong. there were anti slavery movements, of course and the north was anti slavery, but the war was over keeping the union together. that was the #1 reason for the war, ending slavery was a positive, and a close #2 or 3 reason the north went to war. but not the main reason. I am for states rights, over the fed govt.... that would have been one good thing to come out of the war if the south won. the sad thing is,..slavery would have continued. now back to 2007 I hate seeing confederate flags on pick ups and in front of trailers. 99% of these people didnt graduate HS and are racist. They give the confederate flag a bad image. The 1950 killings with whitey and the flag just made it worse. what I am saying is, I understand the flag gets peole upset, but to me its a historical thing. I had family fight for both sides of the flag years ago. Also being a history nut, I get into these things. The flag doesn't bother me, but sadly the ones flying it are usually flying it because they are racist, when originally the flag stood for a small group of states that wanted to make their own country.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ONYX Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='rudi32' post='428997' date='Jan 18 2007, 03:36 AM']well heres my 2 cents I was a history major in college, specialized in ww2 and civil war, (my areas of study) I live in kentucky, Ky was a border state and where the true brother against brother was. On my fathers side of the family, they were in the union army based out of cincinnati. my mothers side was confederate based out of richmond ky and ten. so,.. a few facts, cause this is the one thing i know about 1) only 2% of the southern people owned slaves. slaves were too exspensive. most people were poor farmers who could barly make it.[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]This is bogus, the numbers wouldn't even add up to support that.[/b][/color] [quote]2) goes alone with #1, 30-40% of confederate soldiers didnt have shoes,..mo $[/quote][color="#FF0000"][b]Yes many southerners were poor but #1 is still bogus.[/b][/color] [quote]3) the civil war was NOT about slavery. I hate to burst your bubble. The civil war was about ... 4)The north wanted to PRESERVE THE UNION. not end slavery. 5)The south wanted to make its own country. It wanted States rights vrs federal rights. that was the 2 different point of views. 6)A quote from Lincohn, "If I could preserve the union and keep slavery, i would" 1863. Lincohn cared little about slavery.[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]In essence, I agree for the most part but there were even more factors at play.[/b][/color] [quote]7)there were more black soldiers that fought for the south than black soldiers that fought for the north.[/quote][color="#FF0000"][b]I'm calling bullshit on this one.[/b][/color] [quote]8) if you asked any confederate soldier in 1862 why they were fighting, they would say to defend there home, or for states rights...not slavery.[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]Lets not pretend that slavery was not an issue for them and that they didn't care one way or the other.[/b][/color] [quote]Luckily both of my ancestors survived the war (im here), and it worked out. But slavery was not the cause of the war of northern aggression. Slavery had a part of the war, of course, but people do not study history tend to believe that it was the good northerners trying to free the slaves. thats wrong. there were anti slavery movements, of course and the north was anti slavery, but the war was over keeping the union together. that was the #1 reason for the war, ending slavery was a positive, and a close #2 or 3 reason the north went to war. but not the main reason.[/quote][color="#FF0000"][b]Agreed.[/b][/color] [quote]hate seeing confederate flags on pick ups and in front of trailers. 99% of these people didnt graduate HS and are racist. They give the confederate flag a bad image.[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]And what would be an example of a good image of the confederate flag?[/b][/color] [quote]The 1950 killings with whitey and the flag just made it worse.[/quote][color="#FF0000"][b]And all the killings in the 1900's, 1910's, 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, and 1960's didn't help either.[/b][/color] [quote]what I am saying is, I understand the flag gets peole upset, but to me its a historical thing. I had family fight for both sides of the flag years ago. Also being a history nut, I get into these things. The flag doesn't bother me, but sadly the ones flying it are usually flying it because they are racist, when originally the flag stood for a small group of states that wanted to make their own country..[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]A very respectable opinion.[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi32 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 good response sneaky lets see if i can give u some help. The 1-2 % that owned slves is correct. give me some time and i will pull up some info to support it. I may be off a little but it is below 5%.see slaves cost a lot of money and in 19th century south, most were very poor. most people lived in small farms, that were just enough to support the family. a slave would be a year or 2 earnings for the avg southerner. most of the slaves were owned and worked on plantations. they were the rich ...like todays society, they were the minority in numbers. sadly, the rich plantation owners had the poor southern farmers fighting for them. the poor farmers wanted to fight for their home and family, the real evil people were the southern slave owners who wanted the war to keep their way of life. the flag should not be flown on a state capital...enough said but I have no problem it being flown at a confederat cemetery or memorial. thats where it belongs, not in the state capital. I appologixe when i said the killings of 1950. i did not mean to trivialize teh racial hatred and mistreatment that occurred from 1865 on through to the 1960s. it was terrible and ugly. The fact about blacks in the south may not be 100% accurate. I know there were confederate divisons with blacks, but most were designated to cleaning and other labor activities, none fought. so I am sorry if I mislead with that one. they were in the army, but not fighting. I hope that answers a few of ur questions. thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ONYX Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='rudi32' post='429140' date='Jan 18 2007, 03:57 PM']good response sneaky lets see if i can give u some help. The 1-2 % that owned slves is correct. give me some time and i will pull up some info to support it. I may be off a little but it is below 5%.see slaves cost a lot of money and in 19th century south, most were very poor. most people lived in small farms, that were just enough to support the family. a slave would be a year or 2 earnings for the avg southerner. most of the slaves were owned and worked on plantations. they were the rich ...like todays society, they were the minority in numbers. sadly, the rich plantation owners had the poor southern farmers fighting for them. the poor farmers wanted to fight for their home and family, the real evil people were the southern slave owners who wanted the war to keep their way of life. the flag should not be flown on a state capital...enough said but I have no problem it being flown at a confederat cemetery or memorial. thats where it belongs, not in the state capital. I appologixe when i said the killings of 1950. i did not mean to trivialize teh racial hatred and mistreatment that occurred from 1865 on through to the 1960s. it was terrible and ugly. The fact about blacks in the south may not be 100% accurate. I know there were confederate divisons with blacks, but most were designated to cleaning and other labor activities, none fought. so I am sorry if I mislead with that one. they were in the army, but not fighting. I hope that answers a few of ur questions. thx[/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]There are two main reasons why I find it hard to believe that under 5% of the south owned slaves. The first is, as I stated before, the numbers just dont add up. There had to be millions of slaves in the South so they're is no way such a small percentage of slave owners could have accounted for all of them. Secondly, I dont buy the fact that slaves were as expensive as you are implying. I'm not saying they were cheap but remember, they were bred like animals and were inherited like possessions. The old, the young, women, men and children were sold, so there had to be some variations of prices for them. Yes, the wealthiest land owners had the most slaves but they weren't the only ones who had them.[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='sneaky' post='429181' date='Jan 18 2007, 04:25 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]There are two main reasons why I find it hard to believe that under 5% of the south owned slaves. The first is, as I stated before, the numbers just dont add up. [color="#000000"]There had to be [u]millions[/u] of slaves in the South[/color] so they're is no way such a small percentage of slave owners could have accounted for all of them. Secondly, I dont buy the fact that slaves were as expensive as you are implying. I'm not saying they were cheap but remember, they were bred like animals and were inherited like possessions. The old, the young, women, men and children were sold, so there had to be some variations of prices for them. Yes, the wealthiest land owners had the most slaves but they weren't the only ones who had them.[/b][/color][/quote] There "had to be millions"? Why? The entire US population in 1870 was only 38.6 million (not counting slaves, of course). rudi32 was right, owning a slave was an expensive proposition, and most of the south were poor farmers. I don't know if it is as low as 5%, but I would imagine it was well under 10%. [url="http://www.censusresearch.com/1870map.htm"]http://www.censusresearch.com/1870map.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 i first figured rudi was right, but after doing some research, i doubt he is... [url="http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/stat.html"]click here[/url] [i]Selected Statistics on Slavery in the United States (unless otherwise noted, all data is as of the 1860 census) Total number of slaves in the Lower South : 2,312,352 (47% of total population). Total number of slaves in the Upper South: 1,208758 (29% of total population). Total number of slaves in the Border States: 432,586 (13% of total population). [b]Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves.[/b] In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and [b]nearly 50% held fewer than five. [/b](A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.) For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America. On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements. Confederate enlistment data is incomplete because many records were lost when the South collapsed, but it is possible to estimate, very loosely, the number of men in the Confederate army who came from slave-holding families. For this discussion, click here. Slavery was profitable, although a large part of the profit was in the increased value of the slaves themselves. With only 30% of the nation's (free) population, the South had 60% of the "wealthiest men." The 1860 per capita income in the South was $3,978; in the North it was $2,040. Census data can be appealed to in order to determine the extent of slave ownership in each of the states that allowed it in 1860. The figures given here are the percentage of slave-owning families as a fraction of total free households in the state. The data was taken from a census archive site at the University of Virginia. Mississippi: 49% South Carolina: 46% Georgia: 37% Alabama: 35% Florida: 34% Louisiana: 29% Texas: 28% North Carolina: 28% Virginia: 26% Tennessee: 25% Kentucky: 23% Arkansas: 20% Missouri: 13% Maryland: 12% Delaware: 3% In the Lower South (SC, GA, AL, MS, LA, TX, FL -- those states that seceded first), about 36.7% of the white families owned slaves. In the Middle South (VA, NC, TN, AR -- those states that seceded only after Fort Sumter was fired on) the percentage is around 25.3%, and the total for the two combined regions -- which is what most folks think of as the Confederacy -- is 30.8%. In the Border States (DE, MD, KY, MO -- those slave states that did not secede) the percentage of slave-ownership was 15.9%, and the total throughout the slave states was almost exactly 26%.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ONYX Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='Jason' post='429194' date='Jan 18 2007, 04:32 PM']There "had to be millions"? Why? The entire US population in 1870 was only 38.6 million [b](not counting slaves, of course)[/b]. rudi32 was right, owning a slave was an expensive proposition, and most of the south were poor farmers. I don't know if it is as low as 5%, but I would imagine it was well under 10%. [url="http://www.censusresearch.com/1870map.htm"]http://www.censusresearch.com/1870map.htm[/url][/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]Uhmmm, dont you think that is a key factor to count in making your argument? Come on lets be real here, before 1870 it wasn't like the Census Bureau was keeping tabs on how many slaves were bred and how many were dead.[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='sneaky' post='429223' date='Jan 18 2007, 05:04 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]Uhmmm, dont you think that is a key factor to count in making your argument? Come on lets be real here, before 1870 it wasn't like the Census Bureau was keeping tabs on how many slaves were bred and how many were dead.[/b][/color][/quote] that is where the facts i presented came from... and they agree w/ you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ONYX Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='bengalrick' post='429232' date='Jan 18 2007, 05:20 PM']that is where the facts i presented came from... [b]and they agree w/ you...[/b][/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]It's not easy having a beautiful mind, sometimes I think it's a curse. [/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 [quote name='sneaky' post='429236' date='Jan 18 2007, 05:24 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]It's not easy having a beautiful mind, sometimes I think it's a curse. [/b][/color][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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