Homer_Rice Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='Sep 14 2005, 09:57 PM']Homer you killin me with this "Captin Caveman" routine, at least old homer I could read his posts and they would make me think, even if I had to get a dictionary from time to time. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] [right][post="149121"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Don't worry, Jamie. Serious posts for serious people. Ridicule for the ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Dan_Bengals_FL- Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Lucid' date='Sep 14 2005, 07:33 PM']I love how antytime someone points out the mistakes this administration has made has a "Hate for Bush" that "Blinds them to the truth" Sorry guys.. It's not hate. It's not personal... It's simply having the ability to see when someone is doing a lousy job... It is FAR more likely.. that other peoples "LOVE" for Bush is what is causing blindness here... After all, it's not like things have been going really well, and some people refuse to admit it.. Things have been going poorly, why is it "blindness" to point out that the people making the decisions might be the ones to blame? [right][post="149019"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:53 PM']Lucid; This admin makes Macbeth seem positively wholesome. "Out, damned spot!" <translation for old and br> me hatum bush admin big time. me know me wrong becuz me hate. me can't help it. me bad. [right][post="149118"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] You sir are an Intercourse cranium. Translate that... And I`m ridiculous ? Yeah ...ridiculous of me to use FACTS to support my way of thinking... Bush haters just jump on whatever their favorite Anti-Bush News reports and start slamming. I tend to let FACTS cloud my judgement. Anyway consume more feces....you haven`t perished yet you Intercourse cranium madre sexual relationer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 there are many things that i don't agree w/ our president: 1. obviously his response to katrina, that i have mentioned numerous times on here 2. hiring brown as the fema director, even though alberto gonzalez (a hell of an A.G) got a thousand times more scrutinity than brown ever did in the conformation hearings... not sure why i never heard browns name before this disaster, considering the senate voted his unqualified ass into his postition... why didn't democrats raise a huge stink and make sure an unqualified man was put in such an important decision? either way, big red X by this decision, b/c brown was useless 3. not getting osama bin laden at tora bora 4. we should have brought more troops into iraq, once the the country was supposedly ours, to make sure we cut off insurgants from other countries to come in... if we'd done that, the insurgancy wouldn't be half as bad... i'm not saying that iraqis are all for what we are doing and none of them are fighting back, but i am saying that i'd be willing to bet big money that a higher percentage of saudis, egyptions, syrians, and other neighboring countries make up most of what we're fighting against now 5. we should be tougher on those neighboring countries now, but that is kind of hard b/c they know that bush already used his "political capital" and it got flushed down the toliet b/c all we can talk about now is whether or not we should be in iraq... i'm sure there are many other smaller issues that i don't agree w/ bush, but i do agree w/ the tax cuts, war in afghanistan, war in iraq, most of his administration selections, john roberts, his response after the miserable start (katrina), and his leadership after 9/11... and i'm sure there are many other things that i also agree w/ that aren't coming to mind right now... my point is that i'm not "blinded" by my "love" for the president... i don't hate our government... maybe that will come in time... i know that is corrupt, but it has been for over a century... all government is corrupt... we should strive to take as much corruption out of it, but that doesn't mean i should fight against our government, unless i think its out of hand.... and at this point, its not... so you guys can ridicule me all you want, and say i'm blinded, but I AGREE WITH MUCH OF WHAT WE'RE DOING!!! it has nothing to do w/ me loving bush to a point i'm blinded... so i turn to homer at this point... so if he doesn't hate bush, then its our system in general... ok, but how can i even listen to someone that has this hatred built up inside of them... he is extremely biased (against our system i guess), so its hard to take all of what he says as true and correct criticism... he mentions all the time, that our problem is infrastructure and after seeing what a shitty levee did for NO, he probably has a point.... but i saw on david letterman a week or two ago, and some woman made a great point (paraphrasing) "one person spending money on infrastructure in california, is pork belly spending for someone in kentucky"... we always here people saying "thats a pork belly deal" and they are somewhat right, but how the hell are they supposed to get the money to rebuild bridges, dams, and other very important infrastructure projects... if that isn't what you mean by infrastructure homer, then you need to be more specific... i believe what i believe b/c it makes more sense to me than the alternatives... you guys can ridicule me if you feel it is warranted, but that is on you... i don't ridicule you for your thoughts, even when i think they are so flawed and off line... i try to talk to you (unsuccessfully i may add) to understand my point of view... i'm about facing problems head on and not masking them... if that makes me a bad or scary person, then whatever... i have never solved a problem by masking it in my life, so i don't see how it would work in the grand scheme of things... to lucid, who says we're doing a lousy job, this is war... this isn't pretty and we have to have a strong backbone, through thick and thin, good and bad... there have been many ups and downs during this war, but i can't help but look at the overall picture... the bad is that the security still blows there and that is a huge... no HUGE problem... but look where these people came from... but we are doing great things at the same time... i understand things aren't going exactly how you or i would like them too, but there have been some pleasant surprises too.. the elections for one... another is the will and determination of the iraqi people to stand up for themselves, when they have car bombs going off every day... i sit here and think, would americans act so calmly and collectively if this were happing in boston, new york, LA, or whereever? i highly doubt it... shit, some are scared shitless b/c it is happening a thousand miles away from us... their will is the maker or breaker in this war... its not how well we fight (which would be nice, considering we haven't lost a battle yet) but how their country looks in 10 years... we have to finish what was started, and i appreciate a moderate voice expressing concern about this war... your words ring more in my head, than homer or bj, who i percieve as being against bush or government or religion or what ever they are biased against.... i am biased also... i love my country... but we are winning this war, b/c iraq continues to progress... the war on terror will still be being fought when i die i assume... that sucks, but its the truth... there is no way to kill every person that joins a terrorist organization, but the alternative is what we did in the 90's, when al qaeda became more powerful than it ever had been... and we thought we were doing pretty good on terrorism then... be strong everyone and look at the future and present, not the past... i know its hard and i'll be glad when bush is out of office, b/c i swear i think he is the major stepping stone... not b/c he isn't doing a decent job imo, but b/c people just hate him on the other side and that does nobody any good... he literally can't do anything right in their eyes... but if kerry were president, who the fuck knows what would have happened, so i don't feel bad for not voting for him... i just can't wait to push for a president in the future, that can somewhat unite both sides... john mccain is seeming like our only hope at this point... is it 2008 yet?? 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Homer_Rice Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Blah ditty blah, blah; Blah Blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 15 2005, 08:39 AM']there are many things that i don't agree w/ our president: 1. obviously his response to katrina, that i have mentioned numerous times on here 2. hiring brown as the fema director, even though alberto gonzalez (a hell of an A.G) got a thousand times more scrutinity than brown ever did in the conformation hearings... not sure why i never heard browns name before this disaster, considering the senate voted his unqualified ass into his postition... why didn't democrats raise a huge stink and make sure an unqualified man was put in such an important decision? either way, big red X by this decision, b/c brown was useless 3. not getting osama bin laden at tora bora 4. we should have brought more troops into iraq, once the the country was supposedly ours, to make sure we cut off insurgants from other countries to come in... if we'd done that, the insurgancy wouldn't be half as bad... i'm not saying that iraqis are all for what we are doing and none of them are fighting back, but i am saying that i'd be willing to bet big money that a higher percentage of saudis, egyptions, syrians, and other neighboring countries make up most of what we're fighting against now 5. we should be tougher on those neighboring countries now, but that is kind of hard b/c they know that bush already used his "political capital" and it got flushed down the toliet b/c all we can talk about now is whether or not we should be in iraq... i'm sure there are many other smaller issues that i don't agree w/ bush, but i do agree w/ the tax cuts, war in afghanistan, war in iraq, most of his administration selections, john roberts, his response after the miserable start (katrina), and his leadership after 9/11... and i'm sure there are many other things that i also agree w/ that aren't coming to mind right now... my point is that i'm not "blinded" by my "love" for the president... i don't hate our government... maybe that will come in time... i know that is corrupt, but it has been for over a century... all government is corrupt... we should strive to take as much corruption out of it, but that doesn't mean i should fight against our government, unless i think its out of hand.... and at this point, its not... so you guys can ridicule me all you want, and say i'm blinded, but I AGREE WITH MUCH OF WHAT WE'RE DOING!!! it has nothing to do w/ me loving bush to a point i'm blinded... so i turn to homer at this point... so if he doesn't hate bush, then its our system in general... ok, but how can i even listen to someone that has this hatred built up inside of them... he is extremely biased (against our system i guess), so its hard to take all of what he says as true and correct criticism... he mentions all the time, that our problem is infrastructure and after seeing what a shitty levee did for NO, he probably has a point.... but i saw on david letterman a week or two ago, and some woman made a great point (paraphrasing) "one person spending money on infrastructure in california, is pork belly spending for someone in kentucky"... we always here people saying "thats a pork belly deal" and they are somewhat right, but how the hell are they supposed to get the money to rebuild bridges, dams, and other very important infrastructure projects... if that isn't what you mean by infrastructure homer, then you need to be more specific... i believe what i believe b/c it makes more sense to me than the alternatives... you guys can ridicule me if you feel it is warranted, but that is on you... i don't ridicule you for your thoughts, even when i think they are so flawed and off line... i try to talk to you (unsuccessfully i may add) to understand my point of view... i'm about facing problems head on and not masking them... if that makes me a bad or scary person, then whatever... i have never solved a problem by masking it in my life, so i don't see how it would work in the grand scheme of things... to lucid, who says we're doing a lousy job, this is war... this isn't pretty and we have to have a strong backbone, through thick and thin, good and bad... there have been many ups and downs during this war, but i can't help but look at the overall picture... the bad is that the security still blows there and that is a huge... no HUGE problem... but look where these people came from... but we are doing great things at the same time... i understand things aren't going exactly how you or i would like them too, but there have been some pleasant surprises too.. the elections for one... another is the will and determination of the iraqi people to stand up for themselves, when they have car bombs going off every day... i sit here and think, would americans act so calmly and collectively if this were happing in boston, new york, LA, or whereever? i highly doubt it... shit, some are scared shitless b/c it is happening a thousand miles away from us... their will is the maker or breaker in this war... its not how well we fight (which would be nice, considering we haven't lost a battle yet) but how their country looks in 10 years... we have to finish what was started, and i appreciate a moderate voice expressing concern about this war... your words ring more in my head, than homer or bj, who i percieve as being against bush or government or religion or what ever they are biased against.... i am biased also... i love my country... but we are winning this war, b/c iraq continues to progress... the war on terror will still be being fought when i die i assume... that sucks, but its the truth... there is no way to kill every person that joins a terrorist organization, but the alternative is what we did in the 90's, when al qaeda became more powerful than it ever had been... and we thought we were doing pretty good on terrorism then... be strong everyone and look at the future and present, not the past... i know its hard and i'll be glad when bush is out of office, b/c i swear i think he is the major stepping stone... not b/c he isn't doing a decent job imo, but b/c people just hate him on the other side and that does nobody any good... he literally can't do anything right in their eyes... but if kerry were president, who the fuck knows what would have happened, so i don't feel bad for not voting for him... i just can't wait to push for a president in the future, that can somewhat unite both sides... john mccain is seeming like our only hope at this point... is it 2008 yet?? [right][post="149261"][/post][/right][/quote] You're a good kid, Rick, but incredibly naive. Claiming to love your country is not a necessary nor sufficient condition for the development of good policy. Here's hoping you don't end up a stormtrooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 15 2005, 08:53 AM']You're a good kid, Rick, but incredibly naive. Claiming to love your country is not a necessary nor sufficient condition for the development of good policy. Here's hoping you don't end up a stormtrooper. [right][post="149266"][/post][/right][/quote] what is homer? hating my country? lets just face the facts... i'm an optimist by heart, and i look at things through this prism: you figure the worst and hope for the best... in this light, the worst is civil war and a total and utter failure in iraq... the best would be a prosperious, free iraq that is a major ally in the near future... you seem to be a pessimist, which in my eyes means, you only figure the worst... and don't get me wrong, it could be bad, but we are already at war, and the that worst case scenario WOULD happen if we give up now... we getting closer to victory in iraq every day... like i said, we'll never win the "war on terror"... but we must cripple it, to save ourselves... leaving it alone wasn't the option either imo... my question to you in all seriousness is this: what should we have done in iraq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 15 2005, 09:13 AM']my question to you in all seriousness is this: what should we have done in iraq? [right][post="149273"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] We've been down this road before so reviewing some of my older posts will provide the direct answer. Let me take a different tack. My questions in all seriousness are these: What does the invasion of Iraq say about the conduct of foreign policy in this nation? What is the strategic context vis-a-vis the orientation of US policy since WWII? Since Vietnam (both the beginning and end)? Since the end of the Cold War? Each of the aforementioned are inflection points in our recent history and each of them were contentious periods of debate regarding foreign policy. It helps to have a fair grasp (at least) of the threads of continuity throughout these debates since approx 1944. For now, just take the end of the Cold War. What were the proposals being bandied about with respect to how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world? What were various factions promoting? What would international relations be like, based on the conceptions of these factions? Among those factions, which is in a dominant position now? Now that that dominant faction has had an opportunity to put some of its ideas into practice, how well do the results jibe with their intent? What kind of world do we have as a result of those policies being put into practice? Lastly, and importantly, the economic context over the same time period is crucially important to understanding how we act in the world. I'll not list some of those questions here, but I just wanted to note their importance. This doesn't answer your question directly, but it does provide some approaches to the necessary contextual "backfill" in order to seriously address the question of Iraq and its place within our overall foriegn policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Oh, and on a personal note. It's okay if you think I hate this country. I mean, if that is your judgement of the matter, given the evidence available to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 BR... We don't have a King here in America, we have a man elected by the people to serve them.. The man and the country are not one.. Disliking the man will not bring the wrath of god.. there is no divine mandate for presidents. There is absolutely nothing wrong with deciding that an elected leader is doing a bad job and criticising it. It angers me to hear people talk like disliking the job the president is doing, or the policies of his administration are somehow linked to hating your country... Or abandoning ship... "Don't change horses in mid stream" (wag the dog anyone?) King George W. Bush...? Nah I prefer President... I can fire one of those. It's called democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Lucid' date='Sep 15 2005, 05:46 PM']BR... We don't have a King here in America, we have a man elected by the people to serve them.. The man and the country are not one.. Disliking the man will not bring the wrath of god.. there is no divine mandate for presidents. There is absolutely nothing wrong with deciding that an elected leader is doing a bad job and criticising it. It angers me to hear people talk like disliking the job the president is doing, or the policies of his administration are somehow linked to hating your country... Or abandoning ship... "Don't change horses in mid stream" (wag the dog anyone?) King George W. Bush...? Nah I prefer President... I can fire one of those. It's called democracy [right][post="149537"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] i think you misunderstood me... i was talking about the support for the war in iraq for hte most part... of course you can give out criticism of our president and even about the war... but if the public polls turn to something like 30% for the war, then i'm afraid of a repeat of vietnam, where congress stops funding the war, we bring our troops home, and all hell breaks loose in iraq... all i'm really saying is we all have to stand strong, b/c there will be ups and downs in the war, and we happen to be in a down period... imo, we are winning the war and reason being is this... the last raid in tel afar is somewhat proof to me... we took that city back after the some of the residents there actually asked us to help... there are reports that the people were actually cheering when the troops got there to help... it was relatively easy to take the city, though many of the insurgants did get away... this was an extremely important strong hold for the terrorists, b/c they were supposidly using this area to bring in their fighters from syria... yes, many did get away which sucks, but the alternative would have included many more bombings and innocent people dieing... and we did take the city back... many are saying that the reason we took it so easy, was b/c these fighters were so inexperienced... most of the trained fighters are either caught, dead, or raised for far in rank up, that they aren't in everyday fighting... these fighters are also giving more information than the previous terrorists we have been taking prisoner... i just have hope that this is a turning point, like falluja was for a minute... more proof it will be something, is the response from al qaeda since then, when they have noted this offensive a few times, and vowed to get revenge... to me, that sounds like he is he is more desperate... couple this w/ the fact that sunnis are seeming to come on board w/ the elections, even if it is to vote down the constitution... that is democracy for them... the more i read about the consitution, the more i think it will get voted down, and that might not be a bad thing... better for it to take longer and be much better, than to be ratified and be a useless waste of time... not to say that is what this constitution is, but it certainly less than most of us would like... but the democratic process is taking place in iraq, and the war has seemed to have an effect on the middle east... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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