States Omit Minorities Test Scores To Keep “No Child Left Behind” Funding ...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="green"][b]all part of the illusion of progress that Bush loves so much [/b][/color]



[quote][u][size=3][img]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/no-child-left-behine.jpg[/img]
AP: States Omit Minorities' School Scores
By NICOLE ZIEGLER DIZON, BEN FELLER and FRANK BASS
Associated Press
Apr 18, 2006[/u][/size]



Laquanya Agnew and Victoria Duncan share a desk, a love of reading and a passion for learning. But because of a loophole in the No Child Left Behind Act, one second-grader's score in Tennessee counts more than the other's. That is because Laquanya is black, and Victoria is white.

An Associated Press computer analysis has found Laquanya is among [b]nearly 2 million children whose scores aren't counted[/b] when it comes to meeting the law's requirement that schools track how students of different races perform on standardized tests.

The AP found that states are helping public schools escape potential penalties by skirting that requirement. And [b]minorities — who historically haven't fared as well as whites in testing — make up the vast majority of students whose scores are excluded.[/b]

The Education Department said that while it is pleased that nearly 25 million students nationwide are now being tested regularly under the law, it is concerned that the AP found so many students aren't being counted by schools in the required racial categories.

"Is it too many? You bet," Education Secretary Margaret Spellings said in an interview. "Are there things we need to do to look at that, batten down the hatches, make sure those kids are part of the system? You bet."

The plight of the two second-graders shows how a loophole in the law is allowing schools to count fewer minorities in required racial categories.

There are about 220 students at West View Elementary School in Knoxville, Tenn., where President Bush marked the second anniversary of the law's enactment in 2004. Tennessee schools have federal permission to exclude students' scores in required racial categories if there are fewer than 45 students in a group.

There are more than 45 white students. Victoria counts.

There are fewer than 45 black students. Laquanya does not.

One of the [b]consequences is that educators are creating a false picture of academic progress.[/b]

"We're forcing districts and states to play games because the system is so broken, and that's not going to help at all," said Kathy Escamilla, a University of Colorado education professor. "Those are [b]little games to prevent showing what's going on."[/b]

Under the law signed by Bush in 2002, all public school students must be proficient in reading and math by 2014, although only children above second grade are required to be tested.

Schools receiving federal poverty aid also must demonstrate annually that students in all racial categories are progressing or risk penalties that include extending the school year, changing curriculum or firing administrators and teachers.

The law requires public schools to test more than 25 million students periodically in reading and math. No scores can be excluded from a school's overall measure.

But the schools also must report scores by categories, such as race, poverty, migrant status, English proficiency and special education. Failure in any category means the whole school fails.

States are helping schools get around that second requirement by using a loophole in the law that allows them to ignore scores of racial groups that are too small to be statistically significant.

Suppose, for example, that a school has 2,000 white students and nine Hispanics. In nearly every state, the Hispanic scores wouldn't be counted because there aren't enough to provide meaningful information and because officials want to protect students' privacy.

State educators decide when a group is too small to count. And they've been asking the government for exemptions to exclude larger numbers of students in racial categories. Nearly two dozen states have successfully petitioned the government for such changes in the past two years. As a result, schools can now ignore racial breakdowns even when they have 30, 40 or even 50 students of a given race in the testing population.

Students must be tested annually in grades 3 through 8 and at least once in high school, usually in 10th grade. This is the first school year that students in all those grades must be tested, though schools have been reporting scores by race for the tests they have been administering since the law was approved.

To calculate a nationwide estimate, the AP analyzed the 2003-04 enrollment figures the government collected — the latest on record — and applied the current racial category exemptions the states use.

Overall, the AP found that about 1.9 million students — or about 1 in every 14 test scores — aren't being counted under the law's racial categories. Minorities are seven times as likely to have their scores excluded as whites, the analysis showed.

Less than 2 percent of white children's scores aren't being counted as a separate category. In contrast, Hispanics and blacks have roughly 10 percent of their scores excluded. More than one-third of Asian scores and nearly half of American Indian scores aren't broken out, AP found.

[b]Bush's home state of Texas — once cited as a model for the federal law — excludes scores for two entire groups. No test scores from Texas' 65,000 Asian students or from several thousand American Indian students are broken out by race.[/b] The same is true in Arkansas.

Students whose tests aren't being counted in required categories also include Hispanics in California who don't speak English well, blacks in the Chicago suburbs, American Indians in the Northwest and special education students in Virginia.

State educators defend the exemptions, saying minority students' performance is still being included in their schools' overall statistics even when they aren't being counted in racial categories. Excluded minority students' scores may be counted at the district or state level.

Spellings said she believes educators are making a good-faith effort. "Are there people out there who will find ways to game the system?" she asked. "Of course. But on the whole ... I fully believe in my heart, mind and soul that educators are people of good will who care about kids and want them to find opportunity in schools."

Bush has hailed the separate accounting of minority students as a vital feature of the law. "It's really essential we do that. It's really important," Bush said in a May 2004 speech. "If you don't do that, you're likely to leave people behind. And that's not right."


[b]Nonetheless, Bush's Education Department continues to give widely varying exemptions to states: [/b]


_Oklahoma lets schools exclude the test scores from any racial category with 52 or fewer members in the testing population, one of the largest across-the-board exemptions. That means 1 in 5 children in the state don't have scores broken out by race.

_Maryland, which tests about 150,000 students more than Oklahoma, has an exempt group size of just five. That means fewer than 1 in 100 don't have scores counted.

_Washington state has made 18 changes to its testing plan, according to a February report by the Harvard Civil Rights Project. Vermont has made none. On average, states have made eight changes at either the state or federal level to their plans in the past five years, usually changing the size or accountability of subgroups whose scores were supposed to be counted.

Toia Jones, a black teacher whose daughters attend school in a mostly white Chicago suburb, said the loophole is enabling states and schools to avoid taking concrete measures to eliminate an "achievement gap" between white and minority students.

"With this loophole, it's almost like giving someone a trick bag to get out of a hole," she said. "Now people, instead of figuring out how do we really solve it, some districts, in order to save face or in order to not be faced with the sanctions, they're doing what they can to manipulate the data."


Some students feel left behind, too.

"It's terrible," said Michael Oshinaya, a senior at Eleanor Roosevelt High School in New York City who was among a group of black students whose scores weren't broken out as a racial category. "We're part of America. We make up America, too. We should be counted as part of America."

Spellings' department is caught between two forces. Schools and states are eager to avoid the stigma of failure under the law, especially as the 2014 deadline draws closer. But Congress has shown little political will to modify the law to address their concerns. That leaves the racial category exemptions as a stopgap solution.

"She's inherited a disaster," said David Shreve, an education policy analyst for the National Conference of State Legislatures. "The 'Let's Make a Deal' policy is to save the law from fundamental changes, with Margaret Spellings as Monty Hall."

The solution may be to set a single federal standard for when minority students' scores don't have to be counted separately, said Ross Wiener, policy director for the Washington-based Education Trust.

While the exemptions were created for good reasons, there's little doubt now that group sizes have become political, said Wiener, whose group supports the law.

"They're asking the question, not how do we generate statistically reliable results, but how do we generate politically palatable results," he said.[/quote]


[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_go_ot/no_child_loophole"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_..._child_loophole[/url]

[Guest bengalrick]

our schools suck... at least we can all agree about that... now to figure out how to fix it.... you know what i'm for (vouchers)....

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='251323' date='Apr 18 2006, 10:55 AM']our schools suck... at least we can all agree about that... now to figure out how to fix it.... you know what i'm for (vouchers)....[/quote]

[b]the formula for fixing our schools is a very complex one and involves a majority of things "outside of the classroom " in my opinion.

Our schools are just a reflection of our faulty culture, economic system, and our faulty parenting.

This 3 pronged monster to me of: An economic system that ensnares many in poverty, then a culture that promotes irresponsibility and selfishness which leads to a breakdown in parenting or even staying around to father the child, and then it is topped off with that single mom forced to work mutliple jobs because she can't get a livable wage at one of them ... and thus her children are raised by their friends "on the block" instead of their working mother, or missing father.

Vouchers to me is the shadow cure that really wouldn't do shit. The issue to me is much deeper and more engrained, and in my mind exists on purpose and does exactly what it is designed to do. Our existing system shoots out uneducated materialistic consumers who don't care about their civil duty of voting or holding their govt responsible. They could care less about foreign affairs, or the function of government and that is the way Washington likes it. They are also pasified with their desires for stupid shit they don't need which keeps them from getting to unruly. Then to top it off the government is more than happy to pay the bottom of the group a little cash to keep them in check and to prevent the poverty from spilling out into the open where others will see it. Also fathers are too blame ... and what is needed is a very strict program of mandating child support and incarcerating men who don't pay into labor camps to make their ass earn money for their children.

Also I believe that schools should have mandated uniforms for all students, but this is never supported by clothe retailers who fight hard against it, or suprisingly by parents who because of our dumb culture have been made to believe that it destroys indviduality. Also in my mind Schools should be separated by Gender. Rich people do this all the time, and it works better. Males and females learn better in classes with their own gender, and the horn ball teenagers are not busy checking out eachothers asses all day. Uniforms also helps from keeping these little sluts from dressing like they are going to the night club.

[/b]

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='251334' date='Apr 18 2006, 11:22 AM'][b]the formula for fixing our schools is a very complex one and involves a majority of things "outside of the classroom " in my opinion.

Our schools are just a reflection of our faulty culture, economic system, and our faulty parenting.

This 3 pronged monster to me of: An economic system that ensnares many in poverty, then a culture that promotes irresponsibility and selfishness which leads to a breakdown in parenting or even staying around to father the child, and then it is topped off with that single mom forced to work mutliple jobs because she can't get a livable wage at one of them ... and thus her children are raised by their friends "on the block" instead of their working mother, or missing father.

Vouchers to me is the shadow cure that really wouldn't do shit. The issue to me is much deeper and more engrained, and in my mind exists on purpose and does exactly what it is designed to do. Our existing system shoots out uneducated materialistic consumers who don't care about their civil duty of voting or holding their govt responsible. They could care less about foreign affairs, or the function of government and that is the way Washington likes it. They are also pasified with their desires for stupid shit they don't need which keeps them from getting to unruly. Then to top it off the government is more than happy to pay the bottom of the group a little cash to keep them in check and to prevent the poverty from spilling out into the open where others will see it. Also fathers are too blame ... and what is needed is a very strict program of mandating child support and incarcerating men who don't pay into labor camps to make their ass earn money for their children.

Also I believe that schools should have mandated uniforms for all students, but this is never supported by clothe retailers who fight hard against it, or suprisingly by parents who because of our dumb culture have been made to believe that it destroys indviduality. Also in my mind Schools should be separated by Gender. Rich people do this all the time, and it works better. Males and females learn better in classes with their own gender, and the horn ball teenagers are not busy checking out eachothers asses all day. Uniforms also helps from keeping these little sluts from dressing like they are going to the night club.

[/b][/quote]




Excellent idea, but may I suggest that we also destroy BET's satelite and ban all non-positive hip
hop on radio and television until after midnight and make it illegal for minors to buy it until they
are 18.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="blue"][b]Other problems that I believe add to poor school performance: (I have done a lot of work in Schools in the last few years, many of them the so called "worst of the worst" Highschools)



- Nutrition: Anyone who understands human anatomy will tell you that certain foods are more useful to being productive throughout the day. American kids often don't eat breakfast .... and then when they do get to School .... Our schools are often so underfunded that they rent out hall space to Coca Cola or Pepsi to sell soft drinks and junk food. Thus the kids are hyped on sugary foods and snacks all day, which creates an up and down cycle of attentiveness, and harms already short attention spans .... in our ADD culture of soundbites and video games. Schools need to get these candy machines and soft drink machines out of schools in my opinion.

- Timing of the day: I believe that the school day should emulate the work day. Thus School should be from 9 to 5. This shift would make it easier for parents who work to provide supervision to kids. The reason this is not done is sports practice. But guess what ? Sports are secondary in importance. In the schools I have been associated a good number of kids come in late at like 9 o clock anyway. This way the parents can drop them off on the way to work if needed, and the kids aren't home alone as much without supervision.

- Allowing drop outs: Kids can legally not go to school anymore at 16... Why? Mandate to that little fucker that he has to stay in school until 18 years old or until he gets a diploma. None of this GED at 16 or 17 bullshit. Also scratch the GED all together .... Get the diploma the real way ... or you are out of luck. This would make kids more apt to stay. And if they don't want to learn, then fine .... they will be mandated to sit in a room all day and do nothing.

- Trying to relate too much: Teachers these days think that everything is supposed to be relateable to pop culture. Yes that some dumb ass pop culture that destroys our youth in the first place. Thus teachers are assigning history projects on 50 cent instead of on George Washington. Everything doesn't have to be relateable ... some things are supposed to be foriegn .... until you fucking learn them. Quit trying to make everything relate to ADD MTV youth.

- Subject matter: We are so focused on math and reading that I believe kids lack a lot of the context that makes an effective student, scholar, and learner. Subjects like geography, history, politics, literature, world affairs, the classics, philosophy etc are placed aside to teach kids to use calculators properly.

- Discipline: although I would love to say paddle their ass, since that really isn't feasible .... since most Parents themselves don't properly correct their shit nosed kids .... there needs to be some serious penalties for misbehavior. Suspension is the dumbest thing ever .... punish a kid for skipping by sending him home for 3 days .... WTF ? How about instead of suspension .... Weekend school .... or hell Friday and Saturday Night school. Make their asses show up each friday and saturday night and sit in detention ... and if they fail to show up .... arrest them and they can sit in jail. Also Drivers licenses should be tied to grades .... if you don't have a C average .... take the fucking bus. [/b][/color]

[Jamie_B]

Im in agreement with all of this your saying BJ, but I question the same sex school thing and how that would hinder the social development of the youth to interact with the oppisite sex, this is of importance as well.

[Guest bengalrick]

your right, there are many problems, and vouchers, or laws, or even changes to the current system are not going to defeat teh problem alone... you mention "out of school" things, and i agree w/ that, but "in the school" is where it has to be changed too...

you say this: [i]This 3 pronged monster to me of: An economic system that ensnares many in poverty, then a culture that promotes irresponsibility and selfishness which leads to a breakdown in parenting or even staying around to father the child, and then it is topped off with that single mom forced to work mutliple jobs because she can't get a livable wage at one of them ... and thus her children are raised by their friends "on the block" instead of their working mother, or missing father.[/i]

quite frankly, if i didn't know any better, i would think i was talking to a pretty hard core christian.... that is why i like you bj... in most topics, you come off as a moral dude, even though you dispise the religion that has helped me get to that point... either way, i applaud that, reguardless of how you get there...

anyways, these are three problems that need to be fixed... i disagree w/ your first point, b/c ALL systems do this, either directly or indirectly.... that is my problem w/ complaints about capitalism and this problem that capitalism has... what is the solution? socialism or something like that? it sounds great on paper, but point out a success story in this society... the difference between capitalism (in a general sense) and socialism (in a general sense) is both have an upper, middle, and lower class... w/ socialism, the middle and upper class are over taxed and beaten up, for the benefit of the poor... like i said, on paper it makes some sense until you think harder about it... how do you pull yourself out of poverty, if the society only props up the lower class? think about that for a minute... this type of system doesn't pull people out of poverty... it lowers the standards of the upper class, and puts the middle class in the lower class...

also, the point you are making here is that our poor schools come b/c of our failed society, like the things you mentioned above... i'm not saying that that isn't effecting it now, but to me that problem starts w/ the schools... instead of society creating bad schools, i think that schools are creating a bad society... for instance, what is teh biggest cause of poverty in our current society statistically? high school drop outs are almost always in teh low to low-middle class... that is no accident... if you want to be in poverty, one way seems to be to drop out of school... i'm not discounting your point though, b/c i could also use the example of the single mother, that you used... in this example, i would point to the problem being how that guy was raised... chances are, he was hung out to dry as well, and not raised correctly... this isn't a direct corrolation w/ being uneducated, b/c smart guys can be assholes too..

in other words, the problems are in school, out of school, and the system that is in place... in school, b/c we should be learned more, and should be taught how to find the answers, not what the answers are... if you can figure out how to find answers, you will be much better off in life, which is what school should be about... not when the constitution was signed, or how to do triginometry... out of school, b/c bad parenting leads to bad kids, which leads to bad parents inteh future... and teh cycle continues until it is changed by one child, who was raised wrong... thats asking alot... and the system in general promotes the peolpe w/ the most money, to get the best education... this is just stupid, in a system that revolves around education and techonology jobs so much... right now, if you are in a bad school district (and you probably are reguardless of where you live) then the only ways to get a better education are 1. go to a private school 2. home schooling... notice both examples involve the parents having money? that ain't right... there is no alternatives here...

so why are the schools so fucked up then, should be our next question, since we have pinpointed the main problems imo?? they are so fucked up imo, b/c there is no competition... why would they push their school to do better? sure, they have the rewards for higher schools which sounds nice and all, until we figure out how schools get around this rule... the key is to use market forces... if this school isn't as good as the school a county away, then go a county away and deprive your county's school your money... either they change their policies, hire better teachers, or get better disipline, or they will fail... businesses going out of business is a very healthy thing actually... dont' let the school ever close... let the federal gov't run the school while they look for a seller, so they kids aren't effected very much by these closings... this competition will force our schools to reevaluate the things they teach, the way they teach them, and so forth... imo, this will solve the problems in the school... in other words, changing the way the system works, should also change the way that the schools work inside the school... that is two out of the three problems leading to our horrible schools, and the other will only get better over time and better education and parenting... and vouchers would also lead to higher pay for teachers, b/c that would be the best way to get better teachers...

it seriously makes too much sense to me... sure, tehre are problems w/ vouchers like transportation (who pays, where do the buses go, etc) but i think these problems can be solved....

off subject a little bit, but we are all football fans here first and foremost... that being said, i find it ironic that i have to explain the benefits of competition on here at all... competition makes us all better, b/c it pushes us... that should be the same in all aspects of life....

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote][color="blue"][b]Other problems that I believe add to poor school performance: (I have done a lot of work in Schools in the last few years, many of them the so called "worst of the worst" Highschools)
- Nutrition: Anyone who understands human anatomy will tell you that certain foods are more useful to being productive throughout the day. American kids often don't eat breakfast .... and then when they do get to School .... Our schools are often so underfunded that they rent out hall space to Coca Cola or Pepsi to sell soft drinks and junk food. Thus the kids are hyped on sugary foods and snacks all day, which creates an up and down cycle of attentiveness, and harms already short attention spans .... in our ADD culture of soundbites and video games. Schools need to get these candy machines and soft drink machines out of schools in my opinion.[/quote]

this is not true across the board... my school had no caffeine products, and decent food... but i wouldn't be opposed to a law demanding certain standards, and outlawing coke and shit at school...

[quote]- Timing of the day: I believe that the school day should emulate the work day. Thus School should be from 9 to 5. This shift would make it easier for parents who work to provide supervision to kids. The reason this is not done is sports practice. But guess what ? Sports are secondary in importance. In the schools I have been associated a good number of kids come in late at like 9 o clock anyway. This way the parents can drop them off on the way to work if needed, and the kids aren't home alone as much without supervision.[/quote]

i don't disagree w/ this... good idea...

[quote]- Allowing drop outs: Kids can legally not go to school anymore at 16... Why? Mandate to that little fucker that he has to stay in school until 18 years old or until he gets a diploma. None of this GED at 16 or 17 bullshit. Also scratch the GED all together .... Get the diploma the real way ... or you are out of luck. This would make kids more apt to stay. And if they don't want to learn, then fine .... they will be mandated to sit in a room all day and do nothing.[/quote]

the ged has saved millions of people from being complete drop outs... you would have to replace it w/ another program, to allow former losers, to become successful high school graduates... we can't let them back into high school in their 30's, so i don't agree w/ this law... and allowing them to drop out earlier? the key to staying out of poverty is graduating H.S. your assuming that student will make the right decision and extra pressure will keep them in... now imagine that loser at you school that dropped out the first second he could... was there going to be any pressure that changed his mind? i don't think so, and this will only allow kids that are pushed by the law to not quit school... i'm not going to lie... as i type this, i do see a huge benefit to this as well, that might make me change my mind on this... kids react differntly, depending on who they are around... one bad apple can make them all bad, so maybe you are on to something... i don't know, i'll have to think about this one more...

[quote]- Trying to relate too much: Teachers these days think that everything is supposed to be relateable to pop culture. Yes that some dumb ass pop culture that destroys our youth in the first place. Thus teachers are assigning history projects on 50 cent instead of on George Washington. Everything doesn't have to be relateable ... some things are supposed to be foriegn .... until you fucking learn them. Quit trying to make everything relate to ADD MTV youth.[/quote]

i can't remember a statement of yours, taht i'd agree w/ more...

[quote]- Subject matter: We are so focused on math and reading that I believe kids lack a lot of the context that makes an effective student, scholar, and learner. Subjects like geography, history, politics, literature, world affairs, the classics, philosophy etc are placed aside to teach kids to use calculators properly.[/quote]

i mentioned this above, but teachers should teach us how, where, and why to find answers... not tell us what the answer is... i agree w/ you on this point...

[quote]- Discipline: although I would love to say paddle their ass, since that really isn't feasible .... since most Parents themselves don't properly correct their shit nosed kids .... there needs to be some serious penalties for misbehavior. Suspension is the dumbest thing ever .... punish a kid for skipping by sending him home for 3 days .... WTF ? How about instead of suspension .... Weekend school .... or hell Friday and Saturday Night school. Make their asses show up each friday and saturday night and sit in detention ... and if they fail to show up .... arrest them and they can sit in jail. Also Drivers licenses should be tied to grades .... if you don't have a C average .... take the fucking bus. [/b][/color][/quote]


i would even say the paddle should brought out of retirement... but yeah, saturday school always sucked pretty bad... that is used in alot of places.. friday school sucked worse though, having to stay after school on the best day of the school week... both suck though...

i actually agree w/ just about this post... how can you and i agree w/ each other on so many notes, and still we can't fix the problem?

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='251385' date='Apr 18 2006, 01:19 PM']quite frankly, if i didn't know any better, i would think i was talking to a pretty hard core christian.... that is why i like you bj... in most topics, you come off as a moral dude, even though you dispise the religion that has helped me get to that point... either way, i applaud that, reguardless of how you get there...[/quote]


[b]I appreciate the compliment .... and I guess I would hope I show others that for some "morality" can exist without reverance for a God. [/b]



[quote name='bengalrick' post='251385' date='Apr 18 2006, 01:19 PM']off subject a little bit, but we are all football fans here first and foremost... that being said, i find it ironic that i have to explain the benefits of competition on here at all... competition makes us all better, b/c it pushes us... that should be the same in all aspects of life....[/quote]

[b]Not to get too much off topic .... but do you really like think competition always is a good thing ? Really?

How about with marriage ? Should dudes just be able to move in and show you wife that they are a better option ? .... should she comparison shop annually to see if she is satisfied elsewhere ? Or how about with parenting? If a set of parents believe they could be better parents, should they be able to take control of your kids? What if your kids want to live with them because they are rich and will spoil them .... should the kids as consumers have the right to go elsewhere? I don't want competing firehouses, or policemen, nor do I want competing armys for the same country.... I also don't want competing roads everywhere, where I have to decide which toll to pay on every route. It is good to say that competition can improve results which it can .... but it also isn't a cure all .... and doesn't apply to everything. I feel that if Teachers were based off of "competetion" what you would have is the easy teachers that are cool with the kids .... getting all the requests and having the happy students .... meanwhile the tough teachers who actually teach will be graded poorly by students .... thus the consumer "the kid" will not pick what is really best for them. Then if you say let the parent decide based on whether the kid is learning ? Well in a lot of these cases the parents are too bright to begin with .... so they have no idea what the kid is or isn't learning. As for parents, they might also decide to go with easier teachers as well as it will help their kids transcripts and college chances. I can just see schools marketing the fact that "here your kid will get A's" and that will be the school to shop from. To me it is over simplified to just say "let them compete" ....


* also I think Schools would say that their competition now is that if you don't like the schools ... you can elect different people for the school board .... thus it is sort of a system on concensus .... however the population doesn't care to vote in school board elections ..... because our schools don't teach us about civil duty. [/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='251390' date='Apr 18 2006, 01:38 PM'][b]I appreciate the compliment .... and I guess I would hope I show others that for some "morality" can exist without reverance for a God. [/b]
[b]Not to get too much off topic .... but do you really like think competition always is a good thing ? Really?

How about with marriage ? Should dudes just be able to move in and show you wife that they are a better option ? .... should she comparison shop annually to see if she is satisfied elsewhere ? Or how about with parenting? If a set of parents believe they could be better parents, should they be able to take control of your kids? What if your kids want to live with them because they are rich and will spoil them .... should the kids as consumers have the right to go elsewhere? I don't want competing firehouses, or policemen, nor do I want competing armys for the same country.... I also don't want competing roads everywhere, where I have to decide which toll to pay on every route. It is good to say that competition can improve results which it can .... but it also isn't a cure all .... and doesn't apply to everything. I feel that if Teachers were based off of "competetion" what you would have is the easy teachers that are cool with the kids .... getting all the requests and having the happy students .... meanwhile the tough teachers who actually teach will be graded poorly by students .... thus the consumer "the kid" will not pick what is really best for them. Then if you say let the parent decide based on whether the kid is learning ? Well in a lot of these cases the parents are too bright to begin with .... so they have no idea what the kid is or isn't learning. As for parents, they might also decide to go with easier teachers as well as it will help their kids transcripts and college chances. I can just see schools marketing the fact that "here your kid will get A's" and that will be the school to shop from. To me it is over simplified to just say "let them compete" .... [/b][/quote]

competition is good in almost any way you look at it imo... like all things, there are exceptions though...

don't look at the marriage issue... look at the part before marriage... you compete w/ other dudes, to get your woman... you are more inclined to buy them things, take them out, treat them right, etc... if you don't, she will get another dude... once your married, the competition is over... there is an arguement to be made, that marriages would last longer and be better if there was competion in marriages, but then again, capital murder would raise drastically too...

w/ your kids comparison, i don't get that one... taking someone elses kid is illegial and common sense tells me that its wrong... but two divorced parents does a problem in my theory... spoiling your kid will not help them, and that would be a form on competeting w/ the other parent... this is a tricky one...

competition is a good thing in most aspects... not all, but for businesses, it is the best way imo... its either do (better) or die for them...

[Guest bengalrick]

[i]* also I think Schools would say that their competition now is that if you don't like the schools ... you can elect different people for the school board .... thus it is sort of a system on concensus .... however the population doesn't care to vote in school board elections ..... because our schools don't teach us about civil duty. [/i]

that would sort of give a competition, but what incentive does the next guy have to fix thing better? very little... sure, his job, but my school district has had the same superintendant since i was in HS (about 10 years now)... our schools suck, but so do cold spring's and highland heights, and pendelton county... do you see what i'm saying? changing the leadership isn't going to solve this problem... all the schools suck, so they don't have to measure up to taiwan, only to the next school district, which only sucks a little less than we do... take 10 schools, make them all the same price, and give everyone the same amount of money in those districts, and watch what happens to those 10 schools... it would be incredible... and the poor would be getting hte same education as the rich, and then it would truely be a society where anyone w/ the will, can become great...

but i agree that we should have a more "civil duty" being taught to us... though, my political science teacher in HS did a good job of that, w/ me...

[whodey319]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='251361' date='Apr 18 2006, 12:22 PM'][color="blue"][b]Other problems that I believe add to poor school performance: (I have done a lot of work in Schools in the last few years, many of them the so called "worst of the worst" Highschools)
- Nutrition: Anyone who understands human anatomy will tell you that certain foods are more useful to being productive throughout the day. American kids often don't eat breakfast .... and then when they do get to School .... Our schools are often so underfunded that they rent out hall space to Coca Cola or Pepsi to sell soft drinks and junk food. Thus the kids are hyped on sugary foods and snacks all day, which creates an up and down cycle of attentiveness, and harms already short attention spans .... in our ADD culture of soundbites and video games. Schools need to get these candy machines and soft drink machines out of schools in my opinion.

- Timing of the day: I believe that the school day should emulate the work day. Thus School should be from 9 to 5. This shift would make it easier for parents who work to provide supervision to kids. The reason this is not done is sports practice. But guess what ? Sports are secondary in importance. In the schools I have been associated a good number of kids come in late at like 9 o clock anyway. This way the parents can drop them off on the way to work if needed, and the kids aren't home alone as much without supervision.

- Allowing drop outs: Kids can legally not go to school anymore at 16... Why? Mandate to that little fucker that he has to stay in school until 18 years old or until he gets a diploma. None of this GED at 16 or 17 bullshit. Also scratch the GED all together .... Get the diploma the real way ... or you are out of luck. This would make kids more apt to stay. And if they don't want to learn, then fine .... they will be mandated to sit in a room all day and do nothing.

- Trying to relate too much: Teachers these days think that everything is supposed to be relateable to pop culture. Yes that some dumb ass pop culture that destroys our youth in the first place. Thus teachers are assigning history projects on 50 cent instead of on George Washington. Everything doesn't have to be relateable ... some things are supposed to be foriegn .... until you fucking learn them. Quit trying to make everything relate to ADD MTV youth.

- Subject matter: We are so focused on math and reading that I believe kids lack a lot of the context that makes an effective student, scholar, and learner. Subjects like geography, history, politics, literature, world affairs, the classics, philosophy etc are placed aside to teach kids to use calculators properly.

- Discipline: although I would love to say paddle their ass, since that really isn't feasible .... since most Parents themselves don't properly correct their shit nosed kids .... there needs to be some serious penalties for misbehavior. Suspension is the dumbest thing ever .... punish a kid for skipping by sending him home for 3 days .... WTF ? How about instead of suspension .... Weekend school .... or hell Friday and Saturday Night school. Make their asses show up each friday and saturday night and sit in detention ... and if they fail to show up .... arrest them and they can sit in jail. Also Drivers licenses should be tied to grades .... if you don't have a C average .... take the fucking bus. [/b][/color][/quote]
hmmm, seems like the exact education i got my whole life at catholic schools

and since your going to think that everything we did was catholic everything, you should know that not one class that is required or that i took was actually catholic religion. And taking electives is not shop or study hall, its physics or statistics and stuff like that.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote]Uniforms also helps from keeping these little sluts from dressing like they are going to the night club.[/quote]

Yeah, and the girls wear some pretty risque stuff, too.

[quote]Im in agreement with all of this your saying BJ, but I question the same sex school thing and how that would hinder the social development of the youth to interact with the oppisite sex, this is of importance as well.[/quote]

Apparently, Jamie, you have never dated a Catholic girl. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='251629' date='Apr 18 2006, 08:57 PM']Yeah, and the girls wear some pretty risque stuff, too.
Apparently, Jamie, you have never dated a Catholic girl. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img][/quote]


Touche! [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img]