Former Army Ranger Given Orders To Kill Innocents Praying In A Mosque, Including Women And Children At Point Blank Range

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[url="http://www.arcticbeacon.com/23-May-2006.html"]http://www.arcticbeacon.com/23-May-2006.html[/url]

Former Army Ranger Given Orders To Kill Innocents Praying In A Mosque, Including Women And Children At Point Blank Range
Jessie Macbeth, Iraqi veteran against the war, said he witnessed mass graves of innocent Iraqis being hidden from the world. He estimates hundreds of thousands have needlessly died in what amounts to a mass genocide.
23 May 2006

By Greg Szymanski



May the souls of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi innocents killed come back to rip the heart, soul and bones right out of the body of President George W. Bush, said an Iraqi women right before she and her three young children were executed by an American soldier on a night raid.



And former Army Ranger Jessie Macbeth, who killed more than 200 innocents during his 16 months in Iraq, said he wouldn't "kill any more for this asshole President."



"Our job was to kill, kill, kill and kill some more," said Macbeth, an Iraqi veteran against the war, on a 20 minute video he released this week about how soldiers are being misled into killing innocent women and children, thinking they were armed insurgents.



"I didn't realize so many people could be killed and the bodies hidden. I saw huge ground pits filled with bodies. It's a huge scandal and there must be hundreds of thousands of bodies hidden from the world. We were told to kill, kill, kill and I am so ashamed of killing so many innocent people.



"I alone with my own hand killed at least 200. And I think I speak out now in order to alert people of the orders being given which are leading to a mass genocide. I didn't sign up to kill innocent women and children who weren't fighting back. I am disappointed in my country, my government and I won't kill for that asshole President any more."



Macbeth, who now speaks up any chance he can get about the mass slaughter by American troops, said from the first day he set foot in Iraq he started to realize something wasn't right.



Macbeth said he was immediately told point blank by officers in charge that his job was to strike fear in the Iraqi people, "to be brutal and to remember the Geneva Convention didn't mean crap.



And after the initial indoctrination, Macbeth said things became much worse.



"We were told insurgents were hiding in the houses, but they turned out to be civilians after we pulled out the bodies. We were told they had weapons and they didn't, " said Macbeth. "Then we were told to kill the severely wounded. On the night raids in the houses of the innocent civilians, if the father in the family didn't answer our questions properly we would just start shooting the other family members starting with the oldest children.



"I had to make myself hate them in order to do my job. I had to dehumanize them and I killed a lot women and children at close range, so close they could feel the heat of my gun muzzle.



"After awhile it was just sickening...to think that I took part in that and my country turned me into a killer. Now that I look back and we are the ones terrorizing the whole nation..



Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I didn't know it then but I know it now....it's hard for me to live and that is why I speak out. Maybe I am doing something to justify the people I killed."



Two incidents still haunting Macbeth, which he details vividly on his video confession, involve killing an Iraqi women and her children at point blank range and being ordered to open fire on hundreds of innocent Iraqi's unarmed and praying in a Mosque.



"I remember this one time after we raided a house there was a lady with her arms around her kids begging me not to them," said Macbeth. "But instead I killed her and the kids and not a day goes by that I don't regret that. What if that was my son? Iraq is horrible and what we are doing over there is wrong.



"Another time we were ordered to go in a mosque and people were doing late night prayers. There must have been a couple hundred people praying and then we just started shooting. Then we would burn their bodies, as well as hanging their bodies from the rafters.



"After awhile it was sickening. My country turned me into a terrorist. We are the terrorists and we are terrorizing their country...it was all for lies?that's why I talk out. I feel if I speak out, maybe the American people will finally realize what really is going one."



Macbeth also said he didn't speak out against the needless killing when he was in Iraq since he knew he would be severely punished or killed, adding the military high command is responsible for forcing soldiers to kill innocent people in strict violation of international law.



"This is why we are hated around the world," said Macbeth, whose video can be seen at [url="http://www.peacefilms.org"]http://www.peacefilms.org[/url]



Michelle DeFord of Salem, Oregon, a Gold Star Mother for Peace and mother of Sgt. David W. Johnson, has this to say about the administration's illegal war policy:



"This administration has betrayed the nobility of our sons and daughters intentions. They do not agonize about the daily loss of life.



"They are hopelessly trapped in their insane ideology. You pour your heart and soul into your children to have them taken and wasted."

[Kool Keith]

Former Ranger Jesse MacBeth never was in the military. He is a complete figment of his own imagination, and will soon be outed, and indicted.

This story is a farce. Simple as that.

[|Bunghole|]

And let's be real here...MacBeth?
As in Shakespeare?
No soldiers I have EVER known (both growing up around soldiers and having been one myself) would stoop to such bullshit.
We are trained to obey, but there is such a thing as disobeying an unlawful order.........which isn't widely reported but is widely obeyed....

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='272379' date='May 23 2006, 11:14 PM']And let's be real here...MacBeth?
As in Shakespeare?
No soldiers I have EVER known (both growing up around soldiers and having been one myself) would stoop to such bullshit.
We are trained to obey, but there is such a thing as disobeying an unlawful order.........which isn't widely reported but is widely obeyed....[/quote]


[b]Notice that nothing is in bold above and there are no added editorial comments. I don't know if this is on the up and up or not. However, it is either ignorant or dishonest to say that this kind of behavior lies entirely beyond the pale of what can be expected of soldiers. That is patent nonsense.

I just heard somebody talking about the following on the radio this morning. This isn't a fairy tale, or something plucked from a fictional work, and it's just one incident of many in a single war. We won't even go into the massacre of Philippinos, the slaughter of surrendering Iraqis in the 1990s, the joyous killing of Panamanian civilians, the numerous Mi Lais of Vietnam, Haditha and Fallujah in the present incursion into Iraq, and on and on.

This is the part where in a face-to-face, I say, "Either you're a damned fool or you think I'm one," and the other person gets all pissed off and sputters and fumes, much to my merriment. In here, all I'll say is that you're only lying to yourself, dude. I'm trying to do you a favor - well, not really, but you should do yourself a favor and get real[/b].


Tiger Force (Vietnam) Uncovered and Exposed

Talk of the Town - COMMENT: UNCOVERED
Witness to Vietnam atrocities never knew about investigation

THE NEW YORKER, NOVEMBER 10, 2003
Talk of the Town, p.41

COMMENT: UNCOVERED

Last month, the Blade, a mid-sized family-owned newspaper published in Toledo, Ohio, devoted fifteen pages over four days to an exhaustive expose of an elite Army unit, known as the Tiger Force, that spun out of control during the Vietnam War: The platoon, a forty-five member, all-volunteer reconnaissance unit attached to the 101st Airborne Division, was ordered in early 1967 to take the fight to the enemy by setting up ambushes deep inside areas controlled by North Vietnamese and Vietnamese nationalist forces. Instead, it took the fight to the unarmed civilian population.

From May through November of 1967, the Blade reported, the Tiger Force, while operating in and around Quang Ngai province, in South Vietnam's fiercely contested Central Highlands, murdered hundreds of noncombatant men, women, and children. Some victims were tortured and mutilated. Some were shot while begging for their lives. Some, hiding in bunkers, were killed by hand grenades flung inside. Soldiers collected ears as souvenirs, along with a few scalps and gold teeth.

In early 1971, the Blade wrote, these events became known to Army investigators, who, over a four-and-a-half-year period, conducted an inquiry that eventually concluded that eighteen Tiger Force members had participated in as many as twenty war crimes. It was the longest war-crimes investigation of the Vietnam War. But no one was charged, and in 1975 the investigation was quietly shut down. By then, six suspects had been allowed to resign from the Army, which removed them from military jurisdiction. The only soldier to be officially punished was a sergeant who had triggered the investigation by reporting that a member of the Tiger Force had decapitated an infant. (He was reprimanded for stating that he had witnessed the incident when in fact he had learned of it from others.) Two former Tiger Force members told the Blade that they had been encouraged by Army investigators not to say anything about what had occurred; in addition, investigators failed to pursue leads and made no effort to interview eyewitnesses in South Vietnam.

The Blade's Tiger Force story began, as many newspaper revelations do, with a tip and some documents that were made available to its Washington bureau. Two reporters, Michael D. Sallah and Mitch Weiss, spent eight months researching records and interviewing platoon members and Vietnamese survivors. The most telling evidence came from the participants. William Doyle, a former Tiger Force sergeant, said, "Nobody out there with any brains expected to live. So you did any goddamn thing you felt like doing-especially to stay alive." The officers assigned to lead the Tiger Force were fully involved in the atrocities, which began with the execution of prisoners. Former Private Ken Kerney was quoted as saying, "The commanders told me, 'What goes on here, stays here. You never tell anyone about what goes on here. If we find out you did, you won't like it.' "

At the height of the rampage, the Tiger Force platoon was operating a few dozen miles from a Quang Ngai hamlet that the Army called My Lai 4, and where, in March, 1968, more than five hundred Vietnamese civilians were massacred by a task force whose platoon leaders included William L. Calley, Jr. The Blade quoted a law professor as stating that My Lai might have been avoided if the senior officer corps had acted on complaints of military brutality in Quang Ngai that had been filed by at least two soldiers. The Blade further reported that in the early nineteen-seventies, after Calley's conviction for the murder of twenty-two Vietnamese civilians, in March, 1971, and while the Army was publicly insisting that My Lai was an isolated incident, senior officials in the White House and the Pentagon were provided with periodic reports on the Tiger Force inquiry.

In fact, while the Army was conducting its internal investigation of My Lai, it discovered that a second large massacre had taken place on the same day in the same area, in a hamlet known as My Khe 4, but Lieutenant General William R. Peers, who had served for more than two years in Vietnam and who led the investigation, publicly denied that there were any other incidents. "It was not brought out to me in the evidence," Peers told reporters at the close of the inquiry, and he was not challenged on that assertion, even though two Army officers who had been present at My Khe had already been charged with war crimes. Twenty years later, the Army declassified an April, 1970, memorandum to the General responding to an article I had written about My Lai. It noted that I did not appear to "possess any substantive information concerning the suppression or cover-up aspects of the [My Khe 4] incident," but that I was being aided in my reporting by someone with access to the official records. It concluded, "The need to terminate such assistance to Mr. Hersh becomes increasingly important when consideration is given to the use Mr. Hersh would make of any information he obtained concerning command reaction and efforts of suppression."

John Dean, the former White House counsel to President Nixon, acknowledged that he had received a series of reports from the Army on the status of pending war-crimes investigations, including My Lai, but that they gave no hint of the extent of the crimes. "It doesn't get to the top unless there's a problem," he told me last month. "I had no knowledge of My Lai"-that is, its full horror--"until it hit the press."

In war-crimes investigations, the disparity between the facts and the military's official versions of them has repeatedly been exposed, often with bruising consequences, by an independent press. The Blade's extraordinary investigation of Tiger Force, however, remains all but invisible. None of the four major television networks have picked it up (although CBS and NBC have been in touch with the Blade), and most major newspapers have either ignored the story or limited themselves to publishing an Associated Press summary. In a column published on the first day of the series, Ron Royhab, the Blade’s executive editor, pointedly wrote that the decision to run the Vietnam stories now had "nothing to do" with the current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. As he told me, "We can't have this kind of information and sit on it, because then we'd be a party to a coverup." There is, of course, a hesitancy in time of war--and, in particular, during an increasingly unpopular war against an entrenched guerrilla enemy, to publish stories that could be interpreted as undermining military morale. And news organizations instinctively debunk scoops nom their competitors, especially those in smaller markets. It may be that others in the media are planning to do their own Tiger Force investigations. Let's hope so. Terrible things always happen in war, and the responsibility of the press is to do exactly what the Blade has done-to find, verify, and publish the truth.

-Seymour M Hersh


This is a printer friendly version of an article from www.toledoblade.com 2003 The Blade.

Article published November 30, 2003

Witness to Vietnam atrocities never knew about investigation



(SPECIAL TO THE BLADE/JEFF TOPPING) Dennis Stout was a military journalist during the Vietnam War and witnessed atrocities, which he reported, but was told to keep quiet. View pictures of the day.



By MICHAEL D. SALLAH and MITCH WEISS BLADE STAFF WRITERS



Dennis Stout was a soldier caught between the ethics of his job and surviving in an unforgiving Army. As a military journalist, he watched platoon soldiers force 35 women and children into a pasture in the heart of Vietnam’s Central Highlands. As the people huddled - some crying-the soldiers moved the villagers into small groups and led them to the edge of the field. Then came the gun shots, with bodies falling. "They just killed them - mothers, with little kids and old people," he recalled.



Though he wrote for an Army newspaper, he said he was banned from reporting about the killings that July day in 1967. It would be 36 years before the American public would learn of the elite unit known as Tiger Force, and its unprovoked attacks on Vietnamese villagers. The platoon’s war crimes were revealed in a recent Blade series, "Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths," which described the slaughter of unarmed civilians by the soldiers between May and November, 1967.



The Army investigated the case for 4 1/2 years, substantiating 20 war crimes involving 18 soldiers. But no one was charged.



As a public information officer who moved among fighting units, Mr. Stout said he watched the platoon soldiers routinely kill men, women, and children, but was unable to stop the brutality. "I knew what they were doing was wrong - this unit was out of control," said the former sergeant, who wrote for the Screaming Eagle, the newspaper of the 1st Battalion/327th Infantry. "There was no reason for what they did. No reason at all."



It wasn’t just Tiger Force. During his five months as a press officer, he said soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division - the larger unit that included Tiger Force -were committing atrocities. He watched 22 paratroopers rape and execute a woman, he said, and a medic pump swamp water into the heart of a prisoner before he was fatally shot by soldiers.



Mr. Stout said he told a master sergeant, but was ordered to forget the killings. He confided to a chaplain but was warned to keep quiet. After leaving the Army in 1969, he complained to Army officials who promised to investigate. But for three decades, the Pentagon refused to say what happened to his case - and the detailed records he provided to agents. "I just thought it disappeared," he said.



In fact, the Army sent two letters to Mr. Stout in 1997, saying officials were "unable to locate" records of his complaints. But documents at the National Archives tell a different story. Records show that the Army conducted an investigation for two years of his complaints beginning on Dec. 16, 1969. Known as the "Stout Allegation," the inquiry focused on eight specific atrocities passed on to agents by Mr. Stout, including the Tiger Force executions of villagers in the field. It can’t be determined if anyone was charged because hundreds of documents, including sworn witness statements, are missing from the case, according to senior archivists.



It was during his stint as an Army journalist in the Song Ve Valley that he began to observe mass executions, Mr. Stout said. The unit leading the charge was Tiger Force, he said. "They just shot everybody," said Mr. Stout, 58, now a building contractor who lives in Phoenix. "There were no civilians they ever let go. They killed everybody they could find."



He said his job was to write positive stories about soldiers in battle. But after witnessing assaults on villagers in the Song Ve, he said his faith was shaken in the military. "They just lined people up and shot them."



It was the beginning of his own struggles with memories of soldiers shooting civilians that persist today, he said. Records show he arrived in Vietnam in September, 1966, and was assigned to Company B of the 1st Battalion/327th Infantry. After the Illinois native was grazed by a bullet during a firefight in May, 1967, he was appointed the battalion’s press officer. That same month, the battalion was sent to the Quang Ngai Province to help the U.S. military control the contested Central Highlands. Part of the unit’s mission was to move thousands of civilians to relocation centers.



After arriving, the battalion - including Tiger Force - moved to the Song Ve Valley, a remote, fertile basin in the center of the province. The goal of the military was to stop the 5,000 inhabitants from growing rice - food that could feed the enemy. But with deep ties to the land, many villagers refused to leave. That’s when Tiger Force members joined other battalion soldiers in what became a grisly routine: Shooting villagers who stayed in their hamlets.



Mr. Stout said commanders were counting the executed civilians as enemy soldiers to help boost "body count."

In Vietnam, the measure of success was the number of enemy soldiers killed - not the taking of land, say military historians. Mr. Stout said in July he spotted a sign posted in a command center in the valley with a tally of the dead enemy soldiers: 600. But the numbers of weapons seized totaled only 11. "Most of the dead people were civilians."



He said he stood across a field and witnessed the execution of 35 unarmed villagers by Tiger Force soldiers. "They took five people at a time to different parts of the field and just shot them. I’ll never forget it as long as I live. I wake up at night sometimes and I still see those women and children." He identified one of the soldiers leading the platoon as Sgt. William Doyle, who was later named as a war-crimes suspect by the Army in the Tiger Force investigation.



Mr. Stout said he tried to stay quiet about the atrocities, but after watching the rape and execution of a woman by soldiers from another unit, he broke down. "I just wanted to stay alive long enough to someday tell people what happened," he said. "My moral cop-out was to live through it, because I couldn’t stop it at the time."



He was honorably discharged from the Army in February, 1969, and enrolled in Arizona State University.



Sgt. William Doyle was named as a suspect by the Army during the Tiger Force investigation. That year, the story of the My Lai Massacre - the slaughter of 500 villagers by the Army’s 11th Brigade - was revealed by reporter Seymour Hersh. After reading about the attack, Mr. Stout contacted a lawyer, Gerald Pollock of Phoenix.



"I needed to tell people that My Lai was not an isolated case," he said.



Mr. Pollock said he remembered meeting with Mr. Stout. "He was obviously nervous, but he wanted to tell people about what he saw." In December, 1969, Mr. Stout and his lawyer met with representatives of the Army’s criminal investigation command. Mr. Stout said he remembered filing eight complaints. including the executions of the villagers in the field by Tiger Force soldiers.

During two additional meetings, Mr. Stout said he provided Army investigators with the names of suspects, locations of war crimes, and identification cards he took from dead villagers. He said he also turned over the names of the sergeant major and chaplain to whom he initially complained. "I gave these people names and locations within five meters of where the killings occurred," he said. "My stuff was so nailed down. I was so specific, I knew they would have to take action."



However, he said, in 1970, he received a letter from the Army stating the investigation could not proceed, because agents were unable to go behind enemy lines to talk to witnesses.



But that was not the case. Unknown to Mr. Stout, Army agents were interrogating dozens of witnesses - more than 100 in two years. On Feb. 3, 1971, investigators interviewed a key witness in the case: Sgt. Gary Coy. The former battalion soldier told agents he didn’t know about Mr. Stout’s allegations. But he talked about another war crime - one involving a soldier who severed a baby’s head in a hut.



Pvt. Sam Ybarra was a suspect in the Army's Tiger Force investigation. Investigators later identified the suspect as Sam Ybarra, a former Tiger Force private and one of the platoon’s most well known members.



It was the beginning of a new investigation - one that would focus solely on Tiger Force. Though the Tiger Force investigation lasted until 1975, Mr. Stout said he was ignorant of the development. "I had absolutely no idea that my complaint led to that investigation," he said.



Over the years, he said he has been angry over the Army’s responses to his inquiries. In 1970, and again, in 1975, he sent letters to the Pentagon asking for information, with no response, he said. On Dec. 18, 1996, he wrote to his congressman, then-U.S. Rep. Matt Salmon, for help in finding his case. But the Army informed Mr. Salmon’s office on Feb. 12, 1997 that it could not locate any records.



Chris Grey, a spokesman for the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command, told The Blade last week the Army is unable to find evidence of his complaints. "There are millions of records, and we are looking," he said. One possible explanation could be that numerous documents were destroyed in the early 1970s. A 1973 letter on file at National Archives from Army Col. Joseph Tenhet states that war-crime cases between 1965 and 1971 were destroyed "in anticipation of a cease fire" in the war. "As a substantial amount of our classified files consisted of war crimes which are rarely, if ever, referred to in the normal course of business, permission was requested for their immediate destruction," he wrote in the letter to Col. Waldemar Solf.



Because the investigation of Tiger Force lasted through 1975, those records were not destroyed. Many of the documents, including statements of former soldiers, support Mr. Stout’s claims of fatal assaults of civilians in the Song Ve Valley.



At least nine unarmed villagers were killed by platoon soldiers between June and July, but those are only the documented cases. Former soldiers and Vietnamese villagers interviewed by The Blade said the platoon carried out mass slayings in June and July.



Nguyen Dam, 66, a rice farmer, said there were so many bodies to be buried, the civilians simply dug mass graves. "There were so many villagers who died, we couldn’t bury them one by one."



Army officials say they are now conducting a review of the Tiger Force investigation, including comparing the evidence gathered three decades ago by Army agents with The Blade’s findings.



Mr. Stout said he wants the military to find his original complaints. "I went to them because it was the right thing to do," he said. "Then they kept telling me that they didn’t know what I was talking about." He wants to know whether anyone was disciplined as a result of his case. "I’ve lived with this for so long," he said. "If nothing happened, then I will press the Army to reopen the case."



One war-crimes expert said the Army should review how it handled the cases sparked by Mr. Stout’s complaints. Ben Ferencz, 84, a former U.S. prosecutor assigned to the Nuremberg trials, said enough questions are being raised about the Army’s handling of the Tiger Force investigation "that the military needs to show the rules of law were applied, and if not, why? You can’t ignore war crimes - then or now."



Mr. Stout agrees. He said he was criticized by other soldiers for reporting the atrocities 34 years ago - and many times, doubted when he brought up the case years later. "People today don’t believe we could have done this," he said. "But what I saw, I could never forget."

[Kool Keith]

I'm not so naive to think that there have never been incidents with our Military operating in the way you've tried to describe above.

What I am telling you is that Jesse MacBeth is a liar, a scammer, and a belly-crawling coward.

[url="http://usmilnet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2246.0"]http://usmilnet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2246.0[/url]

Have fun.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]is this Macbeth guy legit .... who knows ?

[color="#CC0000"][center]the options of what he is doing could range from:

- him being a political shill who was never in the military who made all this shit up

- a disgruntled soldier who maybe killed a few innocent people in Iraq and is now disgusted by it and embellishing his duties

- A disgruntled paper pusher soldier that didn't kill shit - but hates that he was in Iraq ... and is now making up things or spreading rumors he heard while over there

- an actual soldier who did do all of this sick twisted shit ... and a true hero acting as a whistle blower and will now be smeared by the propaganda matrix which will make him look like a fraud

- a mentally ill fucker with multiple personality disorder etc (really thinks he did all of this)

- A govt lackey paid to spread these lies in order to be found as a fraud and thus discredit the soldiers who will return home with actual atrocity stories - but because of this guy no one will believe them either

- a govt lackey paid to spread these lies in an attempt to paint the left as scoundrels and help the rights numbers[/center][/color]


Or a combination of the above .....



Some of you may remember ... that when the haditha "massacre" of civilians first came out ... I was reserved in believing it .... Now it looks like that was most likely true ....

what I would suggest is that people give these tales some time to work through the grapevine and see what pops up ....


As for atrocity ..... the U.S. has a long laundry list of acting as terrorists .... Hell the whole fact that there is a U.S. was based on the terror and killing of millions of Native Americans .....and the bondage of millions of more Africans ....

then when you look at our behavior in the Phillipines, and Vietnam it is atrocious .... I have family members who were in Vietnam who tell me horror stories that I believe are true .... (and they are way to the right).

US troops are just people .... and all people are capable of terror and atrocity .... there is not something in a US troops genetic DNA that makes him immune to behaving like the countless armies of the world who do the same kind of behavior ....



Could this be true ? absolutely ...

is it true ? We may or may never not know [/b]

[Lawman]

[quote]- him being a political shill who was never in the military who made all this shit up[/quote]

you could of stopped there and been correct

see KK's link.

[quote]He can't even get his uniform stuff right. If you're gonna lie, at least make it believable![/quote]

[quote]Did anybody else notice that, in addition to the sleeves being rolled up Marine Corps style, he was wearing the beret with the flash over his right eye? That's about as conclusive as it can get that he's a poser.[/quote]


[quote]“Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received.”~~~~Army Spokesman John Boyce[/quote]


[quote]Game over.

"I just talked to the Army spokesman as well. Paul Boyce told me: "At a minimum, this appears to have been concocted" and "some sort of hoax." Special Ops Command and State Department have been alerted. The uniform issues of the alleged soldier were a "red flag," Boyce said. As were MacBeth's claims to have entered the Army at 16 and exit at age 20, and have been both Army Ranger and Special Ops, and have received the Purple Heart and other medals. I asked whether there would be a criminal investigation. Boyce said they would follow up on any substantial leads."[/quote]

[quote][b]The current law does not prevent someone from bullshitting about their service unless they did it to perpetrate a fraud like VA benefits or something. The only award protected by current law is the MOH. The pending legislation that has been approved by the House, but has not made it out of the Judiciary Committee in the Senate is called the Stolen Valor Act. For some reason, a handful of Senators are sitting on the bill. I don’t know who they are or why it has stalled. If it doesn’t come up for a vote by the end of the 109th Congress (Dec ’06), it will officially die in committee and have to be reintroduced in the 110th Congress in 2007.[/b]

[u] "The Stolen Valor Act of 2005" (H.R. 3352 & S. 1998) will make it a crime to wear combat or valor awards that were not earned by the wearer. (Introduced by Rep. John Salazar [D-CO] in the House and By Sen. Gaylord Conrad [D-ND] in the Senate.)[/u] It has been endorsed by 17 Senators, a mix of dumbasss and Democrats, but Ironically, [u]John Kerry and John McCain have not endorsed the bill[/u], Hmmmmm.

Anyway, if and when it does pass, it would mean the Bronze Star, the CIB, the CAB and the Mustard Stains are all in violation of the proposed law if there is a photo of him wearing them. The mil.com profile won’t cut it either. Also, even if the bill does eventually get signed by the President, ex-post-facto legislation will not apply to this punk. We can only hope the FBI finds some sort of fraud like a VA claim for PTSD or if he was paid by the company that did the movie or something.

If we had an Attorney General with a set of balls, that would charge him with sedition. This is an open and shut case if I ever saw one.[/quote]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]If we had an Attorney General with a set of balls, that would charge him with sedition. This is an open and shut case if I ever saw one.[/quote]


[b]Hey Bush appointed the asshole ... so take it up with him ....


also as for the excerpts you posted .... they are not entirely conclusive ....


So he was wearing the uniform improperly ... but as a soldier now disgraced by his service wouldn't he not wear it properly as a way to say "fuck this outfit" .... thus he would roll up his sleeves etc.

As for no name .... that could easily dissapear once the govt wants him to seem as a fraud "if indeed he is telling the truth"



[center][color="#663366"]however you are also leaving out the idea of "Black propaganda"

- the idea that he is a govt plant who is supposed to lie and make up a lot of shit to

1. discredit those with real atrocity stories

2. give the impression that those who speak out are all liars

3. Make the anti war left appear to be scoundrels who "spread lies on our military" - which helps a president with #'s in the 20's [/b] [/color] [/center]

[Nati Ice]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you really are fucking insane




...oh, this is just too much

[Jamie_B]

[quote]To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.[/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote]also as for the excerpts you posted .... they are not entirely conclusive ....[/quote]

maybe not, but they are military people and understand the military better than anyone,

trust me, they can spot bullshit when they see it; especially the enlisted members

[Lawman]

Jamie,

so true

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='272496' date='May 24 2006, 09:12 AM']maybe not, but they are military people and understand the military better than anyone,

trust me, they can spot bullshit when they see it; especially the enlisted members [/quote]


[b]hey I am not leaving out the possibility that the dude is a lying fuck ... and if that is the case then I hope an angry mob beats him to death ....


however you also should leave out the possibility that he's telling the truth or parts of it .... or that he is a liar ... but a staged one [/b]

[Lawman]

[quote]however you also should leave out the possibility that he's telling the truth or parts of it .... [u]or that he is a liar ... but a staged one [/u][/quote]

You do know there are alot of issue's I agree with you on, it's just the uneccessary add-on's I have problems with

[Guest fredtoast]

[quote name='Lawman' post='272496' date='May 24 2006, 09:12 AM']trust me, they can spot bullshit when they see it; especially the enlisted members [/quote]

Yeah, sure, I guess that's why military people were the first ones to call bullshit on the Jessica Lynch confabulation.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='272578' date='May 24 2006, 11:39 AM']Yeah, sure, I guess that's why military people were the first ones to call bullshit on the Jessica Lynch confabulation. [/quote]


[b]where is the zing button ..... [/b]






[i]I would have also added the whole "greet us as liberators" or "I protected Texas from the VietCong" [/i]

[Nati Ice]

-why would you call bullshit on something that supports your cause?

-all of the ones i know did. hell, my old coaches cousin was on the seal team that "rescued" her (why they aired the faces of those guys on fox, cnn, msnbc, etc., i will never know)


edit: i thought rangers (ranger units) were considered special forces along with 101st(?), 160th soar(?), pysop, delta, and the green berets?

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='272487' date='May 24 2006, 08:59 AM']HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you really are fucking insane
...oh, this is just too much[/quote]

i know i'm a hard headed fucker, but even i give in, when its clear as fuck that i am wrong... bj, sorry bud but you are very wrong on this matter...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='272633' date='May 24 2006, 02:31 PM']i know i'm a hard headed fucker, but even i give in, when its clear as fuck that i am wrong... bj, sorry bud but you are very wrong on this matter...[/quote]


[b]How can I be wrong when I have not made any final conclusions ????


All I am doing is saying "keep your opinions open" and be "Critical of all sides" [/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='272700' date='May 24 2006, 03:42 PM'][b]How can I be wrong when I have not made any final conclusions ????
All I am doing is saying "keep your opinions open" and be "Critical of all sides" [/b][/quote]

sorry... this post through me off, after coy said [i]"If we had an Attorney General with a set of balls, that would charge him with sedition. This is an open and shut case if I ever saw one."[/i], you replied back w/:

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='272485' date='May 24 2006, 08:56 AM'][b]Hey Bush appointed the asshole ... so take it up with him ....
also as for the excerpts you posted .... they are not entirely conclusive ....
So he was wearing the uniform improperly ... but as a soldier now disgraced by his service wouldn't he not wear it properly as a way to say "fuck this outfit" .... thus he would roll up his sleeves etc.

As for no name .... that could easily dissapear once the govt wants him to seem as a fraud "if indeed he is telling the truth"
[center][color="#663366"]however you are also leaving out the idea of "Black propaganda"

- the idea that he is a govt plant who is supposed to lie and make up a lot of shit to

1. discredit those with real atrocity stories

2. give the impression that those who speak out are all liars

3. Make the anti war left appear to be scoundrels who "spread lies on our military" - which helps a president with #'s in the 20's [/b] [/color] [/center][/quote]

to me, this IS an open and shut case... the guy has no credit from people that would know better than you and i... he has lied about the medals he has won (they don't add up)... he can't be found anywhere in the DOD database... he didn't strike miltary guys as someone w/ the correct lingo... he has already been outed as never being in the special forces...

but you act like our attorney general is a schmuck b/c he hasn't arrested rumsfeld, cheney, and bush based on this guy...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='272718' date='May 24 2006, 03:55 PM']sorry... this post through me off, after coy said [i]"If we had an Attorney General with a set of balls, that would charge him with sedition. This is an open and shut case if I ever saw one."[/i], you replied back w/:
to me, this IS an open and shut case... the guy has no credit from people that would know better than you and i... he has lied about the medals he has won (they don't add up)... he can't be found anywhere in the DOD database... he didn't strike miltary guys as someone w/ the correct lingo... he has already been outed as never being in the special forces...

but you act like our attorney general is a schmuck b/c he hasn't arrested rumsfeld, cheney, and bush based on this guy...[/quote]


[b]
Rick you really have lost me with the last post .... I am not sure what you are talking about anymore ....


I didn't say Alberto was a Schmuck "although yes I do think he is one" .... However I don't think he is a schmuck because of this case .... he is an evil schmuck because he is disobeying the 4th amendment when he swore to protect the constitution ... and allowing Gitmo to be a mini gulag with no trials.


As for this Schmoe' with the story of attrocity ? I don't doubt that he is a shill and it is most likely that he is lying .... However what I am trying to get you all to think about is

[center]"Who benefitis from this lie" ??? [/center]

The beauty of Black Propaganda is the American public really don't get it .... it doesn't even seep into their minds ..... thus the Govt can manipulate all situations as they seem fit .....

If he is such an easy case to crack .... then who does it benefit to have him out there .... I believe it benefits the govt and the Pro War argument ... because they can now feed off of patriotism and call this guy a trader .... and the Hannitys of the world can now point to the people on the left that were tricked by him and call them evil etc. Also now if a guy does come back with a story of atrocity ... the general public will feel like "here we go again with one of these nuts" . [/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

my last post was saying that you seemed to be agreeing w/ coy, that if we had a AG w/ balls, he would indite senior leadership of this administration, based on this allegation...

i appreciate you not jumping to conclussions (like it seems i have about you, in this case) but i would just about bet my left nut that this guy is spewing pure bullshit...

[Kool Keith]

[url="http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/james-macbeths-damned-spots-credit-card-fraud/"]http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/jam...dit-card-fraud/[/url]

Have fun...

Maybe ol Jesse figured out the whole space/time continuim thing - he seemed to be able to be in jail in Arizona at the same time he was killing Haaji's in Falujaah.

Hmmm.... I begining to doubt his credibility. I'd think someone would have brought the whole time travel device to market as soon as they had it figured out. Maybe he's just a beta tester, and public backlash for mistruth is one of the issues yet to be worked out?

Yeah.... that's it.

[TheBZ]

I think it is pretty obvious that nothing that he says could be true.

1/ The U.S. government would never lie, cover up things, use propoganda, or route extreme stories to get a desired effect.

2/ All U.S. military personnel are obviously brave heroes who would never kill civilians...And if they did, they would 'honour the code' and protect the reputation of their fellow soldiers by keeping quiet about it.

BZ

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='273742' date='May 26 2006, 03:32 PM']I think it is pretty obvious that nothing that he says could be true.

1/ The U.S. government would never lie, cover up things, use propoganda, or route extreme stories to get a desired effect.

2/ All U.S. military personnel are obviously brave heroes who would never kill civilians...And if they did, they would 'honour the code' and protect the reputation of their fellow soldiers by keeping quiet about it.

BZ[/quote]


I dont think that anyone was saying that, rather that this paticular case is a sham.