The Israel Invasion Thread

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294750' date='Jul 16 2006, 07:06 PM']The side that favors instability and the intentional targeting of civilians?[/quote]

[b]




I'll let this response speak for itself. [/b]

[RoyT]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294750' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:06 PM']The side that favors instability and the intentional targeting of civilians?[/quote]
Lebenon has a democracy government, that is in grave danger of become unstable if not already. And hundreds of their civilians have been killed in just this week women, and children... So what does that make Israel???

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294750' date='Jul 16 2006, 07:06 PM']The side that favors instability and the intentional targeting of civilians?[/quote]


[size=3][color="#000099"][b]Also keep in mind ... the Palestinians took 1 soldier and killed 2 ... then Israel went on to kill 100 + Civilians.

Then Hezbollah kidnapped 1 soldier and killed 9 ... and now Israel has gone on to kill 153 civilians and only 2 Hezbollah at last count


you may be right ... this really seems like one side is attacking civilians .. and the other military.


as for the rockets ... Hezbollah as actually been aiming those at warships and military installations ... While Israel has been hitting bridges, electrical plants, water treatment facilities, and school buses. [/b] [/color][/size]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='RoyT' post='294753' date='Jul 16 2006, 05:23 PM']Lebenon has a democracy government, that is in grave danger of become unstable if not already. And hundreds of their civilians have been killed in just this week women, and children... So what does that make Israel???[/quote]
The democratic government of Lebanon is shaky at best, and cannot control the Islamic militants that operate within it's own borders due to a weak central government and military....
Hezbollah was started by Iran, and is continually funded and supplied by them and Syria, which is why Israel bombed the airport runways and blockaded their ports, to cut off Hezbollah's weapons supply train from abroad, and also to attempt the captured Israeli soldiers from being moved too far from the border. This is also the case in gaza, and why Israel bombed bridges and infrastructure.
Personally I think they should have simply negotiated a prisoner exchange with them, but then, they say they won't negotiate with terrorists, and Israel is jumping on this excuse to wipe out the major operational centers of both hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon in the name of border security.
Both sides are wrong, but Hamas and Hezbollah certainly won't be missed if they are marginalized to the point of non-importance.....except maybe by BJ, Abu and Rumble....

[RoyT]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294756' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:28 PM'][size=3][color="#000099"][b]Also keep in mind ... the Palestinians took 1 soldier and killed 2 ... then Israel went on to kill 100 + Civilians.

Then Hezbollah kidnapped 1 soldier and killed 9 ... and now Israel has gone on to kill 153 civilians and only 2 Hezbollah at last count
you may be right ... this really seems like one side is attacking civilians .. and the other military.
as for the rockets ... Hezbollah as actually been aiming those at warships and military installations ... While Israel has been hitting bridges, electrical plants, water treatment facilities, and school buses. [/b] [/color][/size][/quote]

Airports too wouldn't want any innocent civilians or foreiners to have an easy escape. Lebenon even repaired the airport earlier in the week so at least small commuter planes could leave taking foreiners to safer ground but as soon as israel seen a plane take off bam they hit it again...

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294756' date='Jul 16 2006, 05:28 PM'][size=3][color="#000099"][b]Also keep in mind ... the Palestinians took 1 soldier and killed 2 ... then Israel went on to kill 100 + Civilians.

Then Hezbollah kidnapped 1 soldier and killed 9 ... and now Israel has gone on to kill 153 civilians and only 2 Hezbollah at last count
you may be right ... this really seems like one side is attacking civilians .. and the other military.
as for the rockets ... Hezbollah as actually been aiming those at warships and military installations ... While Israel has been hitting bridges, electrical plants, water treatment facilities, and school buses. [/b] [/color][/size][/quote]
So at least you're admitting now who did what first. And frankly, your assertion that hezbollah is using those sorry-assed Soviet-era rockets to target military installations is laughable, since they have been launched at several israeli cities.
And the death count is underreported....many, many more hezbollah AND civilains on BOTH sides have died for sure....
I am not against you BJ except in your assertions that israel is some Nazi-like state that starts everything and is never the victim in any of this....just because their military is far superior...
It would be the same if mexico started sending guerrillas into Texas to kidnap random people for no reason other than that they believe that the land was illegally stolen from them in the 1800's...and the USA would what? Stand idly by while it happened?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='RoyT' post='294760' date='Jul 16 2006, 05:33 PM']Airports too wouldn't want any innocent civilians or foreiners to have an easy escape. Lebenon even repaired the airport earlier in the week so at least small commuter planes could leave taking foreiners to safer ground but as soon as israel seen a plane take off bam they hit it again...[/quote]
because that is how hezbollah is supplied because the lebanese government has no control in that area of the country!
and also to prevent the kidnapped soldiers from being spirited away by airplane to destinations unknown...
In the meantime, 25,000 Americans are stranded there, so where is our complicity in this again?
We intentionally put 25,000 people in harm's way becaus of or support of Israel?
Oh wait, we did that on 9/11, my bad.... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img]

[RoyT]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294758' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:30 PM']The democratic government of Lebanon is shaky at best, and cannot control the Islamic militants that operate within it's own borders due to a weak central government and military....
Hezbollah was started by Iran, and is continually funded and supplied by them and Syria, which is why Israel bombed the airport runways and blockaded their ports, to cut off Hezbollah's weapons supply train from abroad, and also to attempt the captured Israeli soldiers from being moved too far from the border. This is also the case in gaza, and why Israel bombed bridges and infrastructure.
Personally I think they should have simply negotiated a prisoner exchange with them, but then, they say they won't negotiate with terrorists, and Israel is jumping on this excuse to wipe out the major operational centers of both hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon in the name of border security.
Both sides are wrong, but Hamas and Hezbollah certainly won't be missed if they are marginalized to the point of non-importance.....except maybe by BJ, Abu and Rumble....[/quote]

Maybe not the strongest democracy in the world by all means but it's been stable for years. If it was there intent to stop Iran from re-arming Hezbollah why didn't they attack the source and go after Iran, or Syria? I believe it's because they're scared to mess with them and would rather beat up on lebenon, IMO. I know that Hezbollah is rooted in lebenon so that could be used as reasoning sure, but hey are also rooted throughout the mid-east also so it would seem that Israel has its hands full at his point. Even if they do detroy Hezbollah (which is doubtfull seeing how America is still waging war with Al-quaeda and the Taliban) there is still hamas. I'm sure if the lebenese government could possibly turn over hezbollah they would and once Israel destroys the government of Lebenon don't look for them to help the nation rebuild it's just not in there character.

I am not defending radical extremist parties here, I just really despise what Israel is doing because in the end where all going to pay for their judgement to jump the gun and go to war throwing diplomacy out the window.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='RoyT' post='294770' date='Jul 16 2006, 05:45 PM']Maybe not the strongest democracy in the world by all means but it's been stable for years. If it was there intent to stop Iran from re-arming Hezbollah why didn't they attack the source and go after Iran, or Syria? I believe it's because they're scared to mess with them and would rather beat up on lebenon, IMO. I know that Hezbollah is rooted in lebenon so that could be used as reasoning sure, but hey are also rooted throughout the mid-east also so it would seem that Israel has its hands full at his point. Even if they do detroy Hezbollah (which is doubtfull seeing how America is still waging war with Al-quaeda and the Taliban) there is still hamas. I'm sure if the lebenese government could possibly turn over hezbollah they would and once Israel destroys the government of Lebenon don't look for them to help the nation rebuild it's just not in there character.[/quote]
It hasn't been stable due to the presence of Hezbollah. Iran has been posturing against Israel for some time now, and you'd better believe that Israel is aware of it. israel isn't scared of anyone, let alone Syria or iran, but think of the goegraphic difficulties surrounding an attack on Iran. Syria hasn't been ruled out, hell, Israeli warplanes buzzed the president of Syria's summer home not long ago while he was there as a way of saying "hey fucker, you and I both know what you're doing and you better quit it or else".
Israel is using this latest kidnapping as an excuse to go on ahead and launch a full-scale offensive against hezbollah, which operates largely in the south portion of Lebanon (kind of like how Musharraf can't control the muslim warlord activity along his Pakistani border with Afghanistan) because hezbollah operates so close to Israel for a reason, and that reason is to launch attacks of some kind or another and then go run and hide in the Lebanon landscape.
Israel isn't interested in destroying the democratic Lebanese government. Hell, even Bushie has warned them against doing just that. It is hezbollah and their kidnapped soldiers they are after, and they sure aren't pulling any punches in doing so, which is angering many in the world, including you, me AND BJ....
Israel is too heavy-handed these days, just because they wield the region's toughest military and equipment doesn't mean they should always use it...but that's just the way they are.

[RoyT]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294765' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:37 PM']because that is how hezbollah is supplied because the lebanese government has no control in that area of the country!
and also to prevent the kidnapped soldiers from being spirited away by airplane to destinations unknown...
In the meantime, 25,000 Americans are stranded there, so where is our complicity in this again?
We intentionally put 25,000 people in harm's way becaus of or support of Israel?
Oh wait, we did that on 9/11, my bad.... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img][/quote]
Most of the American citizens there have duel citizen ship and are scattered throughout lebenon. I'm not saying this some huge conspiracy, tha's not my point anyway if it is. My point is why couldn't there have been talks with the lebonese gov. to maybe help them remove Hezbollah. Lebenon really would like Hezbollah gone since they have such a strong veto power amongst there Government. Maybe instead of blowing up the damn airport they could have placed troops there to police it. My point again is there was little or no attempt at a more peacefull resolution, it seems like the israeli gov. was too lazy to try and now we have hundreds of innocents dead on both sides over a less than handfull of troops.

[RoyT]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294774' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:56 PM']It hasn't been stable due to the presence of Hezbollah. Iran has been posturing against Israel for some time now, and you'd better believe that Israel is aware of it. israel isn't scared of anyone, let alone Syria or iran, but think of the goegraphic difficulties surrounding an attack on Iran. Syria hasn't been ruled out, hell, Israeli warplanes buzzed the president of Syria's summer home not long ago while he was there as a way of saying "hey fucker, you and I both know what you're doing and you better quit it or else".
Israel is using this latest kidnapping as an excuse to go on ahead and launch a full-scale offensive against hezbollah, which operates largely in the south portion of Lebanon (kind of like how Musharraf can't control the muslim warlord activity along his Pakistani border with Afghanistan) because hezbollah operates so close to Israel for a reason, and that reason is to launch attacks of some kind or another and then go run and hide in the Lebanon landscape.
Israel isn't interested in destroying the democratic Lebanese government. Hell, even Bushie has warned them against doing just that. It is hezbollah and their kidnapped soldiers they are after, and they sure aren't pulling any punches in doing so, which is angering many in the world, including you, me AND BJ....
Israel is too heavy-handed these days, just because they wield the region's toughest military and equipment doesn't mean they should always use it...but that's just the way they are.[/quote]

Ahh then we agree then, My worry is that when or if Israel gets what they want from lebenon will they help them get back to normal. My guess is no. Thas what is really ruffleing my feathers. Lebenon is a country that has gone very far in the last 30 years and this is probably going to set them back 50 + years.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][b][size=3]Israeli kills 7 Canadians in Lebanon including 4 children (ages 1, 4, 6, and 8) ... [/size] [url="http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html"]Link[/url]



[color="#CC0000"]hey but they said sorry [/b] [/color] [/center]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]


[quote]Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa[b] called the Middle East peace process "dead."[/b] Speaking at a news conference after a meeting of Arab League foreign ministers in Cairo, he said the peace process failed "because certain powers have given Israel every capacity to do whatever it wishes."[/quote]

[url="http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-mideast-fighting-arabs,0,1413577.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines"]http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wi...world-headlines[/url]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294779' date='Jul 16 2006, 06:41 PM'][center][b][size=3]Israeli kills 7 Canadians in Lebanon including 4 children (ages 1, 4, 6, and 8) ... [/size] [url="http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html"]Link[/url]
[color="#CC0000"]hey but they said sorry [/b] [/color] [/center][/quote]
I'm sure that even if that is true (I didn't follow this particular link), that they were intentionally targeted.
Fucking people die in these things, guys!

That is what I am railing against and have in common with all of you!
hezbollah needs to be eliminated and, Israel needs to back the fuck up. Can I be any more clear?

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294782' date='Jul 16 2006, 08:48 PM']I'm sure that even if that is true (I didn't follow this particular link),[/quote]

[b]Why am I not suprised ... and yes it is true ... the Israeli govt issued an apology as shown in the link. However the incident has yet to make FoxNews. [/b]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294780' date='Jul 16 2006, 06:46 PM'][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]
[url="http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-mideast-fighting-arabs,0,1413577.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines"]http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wi...world-headlines[/url][/quote]
Of course he would say that! He and they aren't getting what they want, which is the destruction of the state of Israel, which I keep saying that these dumb fuckers need to recognize!
Israel isn't going anywhere, regardless of the bad feeling regarding the inception of their state, and Arab groups like hizbollah need to stop attacking them or suffer death! And Israel needs to assume a more defensive rather than offensive posture.
If these things happen, then maybe there is hope for peace in the region.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[size=3][center][img]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/newtieweb.jpg[/img]
[b]Uh oh ... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/30.gif[/img] Newt Gingrich is chiming in ....[/b]


[i]"This is World War III, And once that's accepted, calls for restraint would fall away. I would go in and clean them all out"[/i][/center][/size]


[url="http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davidpostman/archives/2006/07/gingrich_says_its_world_war_iii.html"]http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davi...ld_war_iii.html[/url]



[color="#663366"][i]- by the way ... those of you will remember that I picked him as the 08' nominee for the GOP ... looks like someone is trying to line up the Zionist cash. [/i] [/color]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294783' date='Jul 16 2006, 06:50 PM'][b]Why am I not suprised ... and yes it is true ... the Israeli govt issued an apology as shown in the link. However the incident has yet to make FoxNews. [/b][/quote]
Which is all I watch, right? And isn't Fox's precious Cameron the one that you're banking your entire belief system on with regards to his "uncovering the evil Mossad" story that magically disappeared?
Nice.
I source media from all over the world, BJ, I am just too "internet slow" to compete with your ability to post links, and like I said in another thread, feel that it would be a waste of my time to do so as it wouldn't change anything that anyone thinks or believes, but hey---where's the fun in your conspiracy theories if there weren't a quasi-intelligent adversary?
If this forum was always you, Coy, Abu and Rumble in a circle jerk all agreeing, it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294785' date='Jul 16 2006, 06:52 PM'][size=3][center][img]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/newtieweb.jpg[/img]
[b]Uh oh ... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/30.gif[/img] Newt Gingrich is chiming in ....[/b]
[i]"This is World War III, And once that's accepted, calls for restraint would fall away. I would go in and clean them all out"[/i][/center][/size]
[url="http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davidpostman/archives/2006/07/gingrich_says_its_world_war_iii.html"]http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davi...ld_war_iii.html[/url]
[color="#663366"][i]- by the way ... those of you will remember that I picked him as the 08' nominee for the GOP ... looks like someone is trying to line up the Zionist cash. [/i] [/color][/quote]
No way anyone with a modicum of sanity votes for that fucker..unless the only alternative is Hillary, in which case...I would....

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294787' date='Jul 16 2006, 08:56 PM']No way anyone with a modicum of sanity votes for that fucker..unless the only alternative is Hillary, in which case...I would....[/quote]


[b]Well that would be the Zionist all star ticket ....

Hillary (Ultra Zionist) vs Newt (Ultra Zionist) ....
[/b]

[STRAYCAT]

Israeli govt has been taking it on the chin for a long time. Now its taking off the gloves and some are crying foul. Like it has been forcast..a holy war will be the final war and looks like it about to happen.

[STRAYCAT]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='294788' date='Jul 16 2006, 08:59 PM'][b]Well that would be the Zionist all star ticket ....

Hillary (Ultra Zionist) vs Newt (Ultra Zionist) ....
[/b][/quote]




Then we are fucked as a country if either gets in

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#009900"][i]Noam chomsky is Jewish by the way ... so save the anti jew bit ...[/i][/color]



[center][b][size=4][u]Noam Chomsky in a discussion on the current Israeli Conflict[/u][/size][/b][/center]


[b]AMY GOODMAN: [/b] We're joined on the phone right now by Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of dozens of books. His latest is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. In May, he traveled to Beirut, where he met, among others, Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. He joins us on the phone from Masachusetts. We welcome you to Democracy Now!


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] Hi, Amy.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] It's good to have you with us. Well, can you talk about what is happening now, both in Lebanon and Gaza?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] Well, of course, I have no inside information, other than what's available to you and listeners. What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.
At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, whats euphemistically called convergence and described here often as a withdrawal, but in fact its a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley. Well, that proceeds without extreme violence or nothing much said about it.

Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You dont know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. Thats Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I dont have to repeat. Its reported on adequately.

The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?

But the real reason, I think it's generally agreed by analysts, is that -- Ill read from the Financial Times, which happens to be right in front of me. The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously. David Hearst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse.

It's a very -- mind you -- very irresponsible act. It subjects Lebanese to possible -- certainly to plenty of terror and possible extreme disaster. Whether it can achieve any result, either in the secondary question of freeing prisoners or the primary question of some form of solidarity with the people of Gaza, I hope so, but I wouldn't rank the probabilities very high[/color]


[b]JUAN GONZALEZ: [/b] Noam Chomsky, in the commercial press here the last day, a lot of the focus has been pointing toward Iran and Syria as basically the ones engineering much of what's going on now in terms of the upsurge of fighting in Lebanon. Your thoughts on these analyses that seem to sort of downplay the actual resistance movement going on there and trying to reduce this once again to pointing toward Iran?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] Well, the fact is that we have no information about that, and I doubt very much that the people who are writing it have any information. And frankly, I doubt that U.S. intelligence has any information. It's certainly plausible. I mean, there's no doubt that there are connections, probably strong connections, between Hezbollah and Syria and Iran, but whether those connections were instrumental in motivating these latest actions, I don't think we have the slightest idea. You can guess anything youd like. It's a possibility. In fact, even a probability. But on the other hand, there's every reason to believe that Hezbollah has its own motivations, maybe the ones that Hearst and the Financial Times and others are pointing to. That seems plausible, too. Much more plausible, in fact.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] There was even some reports yesterday that said that Hezbollah might try to send the Israeli soldiers that it had captured to Iran.


[b]JUAN GONZALEZ: [/b] Well, Israel actually claims that it has concrete evidence that that's what was going to happen. That's why it's attempting to blockade both the sea and bomb the airport.


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] They are claiming that. That's true. But I repeat, we don't have any evidence. Claims by a state that's carrying out the military attacks don't really amount to very much, in terms of credibility. If they have evidence, it would be interesting to see it. And in fact, it might happen. Even if it does happen, it won't prove much. If Hezbollah, wherever they have the prisoners, the soldiers, if they decide that they can't keep them in Lebanon because of the scale of Israeli attacks, they might send them somewhere else. Im skeptical that Syria or Iran would accept them at this point, or even if they can get them there, but they might want to.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] Noam Chomsky , we have to break. When we come back, we'll ask you about the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations comments about Lebanon. We'll also be joined by Mouin Rabbani, speaking to us from Jerusalem, Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group. Then Ron Suskind joins us, author of The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of its Enemies Since 9/11. Stay with us.


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] Our guest on the phone is Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. I wanted to ask you about the comment of the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. He defended Israel's actions as a justified response. This is Dan Gillerman.


[b]DAN GILLERMAN:[/b] As we sit here during these very difficult days, I urge you and I urge my colleagues to ask yourselves this question: What would do you if your countries found themselves under such attacks, if your neighbors infiltrated your borders to kidnap your people, and if hundreds of rockets were launched at your towns and villages? Would you just sit back and take it, or would you do exactly what Israel is doing at this very minute?


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] That was Dan Gillerman, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Noam Chomsky, your response?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] He was referring to Lebanon, rather than Gaza.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] He was.


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] Yeah. Well, he's correct that hundreds of rockets have been fired, and naturally that has to be stopped. But he didn't mention, or maybe at least in this comment, that the rockets were fired after the heavy Israeli attacks against Lebanon, which killed -- well, latest reports, maybe 60 or so people and destroyed a lot of infrastructure. As always, things have precedence, and you have to decide which was the inciting event. In my view, the inciting event in the present case, events, are those that I mentioned -- the constant intense repression; plenty of abductions; plenty of atrocities in Gaza; the steady takeover of the West Bank, which, in effect, if it continues, is just the murder of a nation, the end of Palestine; the abduction on June 24 of the two Gaza civilians; and then the reaction to the abduction of Corporal Shalit. And there's a difference, incidentally, between abduction of civilians and abduction of soldiers. Even international humanitarian law makes that distinction.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN: [/b] Can you talk about what that distinction is?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] If there's a conflict going on, aside physical war, not in a military conflict going on, abduction -- if soldiers are captured, they are to be treated humanely. But it is not a crime at the level of capture of civilians and bringing them across the border into your own country. That's a serious crime. And that's the one that's not reported. And, in fact, remember that -- I mean, I dont have to tell you that there are constant attacks going on in Gaza, which is basically a prison, huge prison, under constant attack all the time: economic strangulation, military attack, assassinations, and so on. In comparison with that, abduction of a soldier, whatever one thinks about it, doesn't rank high in the scale of atrocities.[/color]


[b]JUAN GONZALEZ:[/b] We're also joined on the line by Mouin Rabbani, a senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group and a contributing editor of Middle East Report. He joins us on the line from Jerusalem. Welcome to Democracy Now!


[b]MOUIN RABBANI:[/b] Hi.


[b]JUAN GONZALEZ: [/b] Could you tell us your perspective on this latest escalation of the conflict there and the possibility that Israel is going to be mired once again in war in Lebanon?


[b]MOUIN RABBANI:[/b] Well, it's difficult to say. I couldn't hear Professor Chomsky's comments. I could just make out every sixth word. But I think that Israel is now basically, if you will, trying to rewrite the rules of the game and set new terms for its adversaries, basically saying, you know, that no attacks of any sort on Israeli forces or otherwise will be permitted, and any such attack will invite a severe response that basically puts the entire civilian infrastructure of the entire country or territory from which that attack emanates at risk. Judging by what we've seen so far, it more or less enjoys tacit to explicit international sanction. And I think the possibilities that this conflict could further expand into a regional one, perhaps involving Syria, is at this point quite real.


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] And can you talk about the UN resolution, a vote in the draft resolution, 10-to-1, on Gaza with the U.S. voting no and for countries abstaining -- Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia?


[b]MOUIN RABBANI:[/b] Well, I think it would have been news if that resolution had actually passed. I think, you know, for the last decade, if not for much longer, its basically become a reality in the United Nations that it's an organization incapable of discharging any of its duties or responsibilities towards maintaining or restoring peace and security in the Middle East, primarily because of the U.S. power of veto on the Security Council. And I think we've now reached the point where even a rhetorical condemnation of Israeli action, such as weve seen in Gaza over the past several weeks, even a rhetorical condemnation without practical consequence has become largely unthinkable, again, primarily because of the U.S. veto within the Security Council.


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] Mouin, what do you think is going to happen right now, both in Gaza and in Lebanon?


[b]MOUIN RABBANI:[/b] Well, I think it's probably going to get significantly worse. I mean, in Lebanon, it seems to be a case where Hezbollah has a more restricted agenda of compelling Israel to conduct prisoner exchange, whereas Israel has a broader agenda of seeking to compel the disarmament of Hezbollah or at least to push it back several dozen kilometers from the Israeli-Lebanese border. You know, the Israeli and Hezbollah perspectives on this are entirely incompatible, and that means that this conflict is probably going to continue escalating, until some kind of mediation begins.

In Gaza, its somewhat different. I think there Hamas has a broader agenda, of which effecting a prisoner exchange with Israel is only one, and I would argue, even a secondary part. I think there Hamas's main objective is to compel Israel to accept a mutual cessation of hostilities, Israeli-Palestinian, and I think, even more important, of ensuring their right to govern. And I think, at least as far as the Israeli-Palestinian part of this is concerned, Hamas's main objective has been to send a very clear message, not only to Israel, but to all its adversaries, whether Israeli, Palestinian or foreign, to remind the world that political integration and democratic politics for them are an experiment, that they have alternatives, and if they're not allowed to exercise their democratic mandate, that they will not hesitate, if necessary, to exercise those alternatives.


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] Finally, Noam Chomsky, right now industrial world leaders gathered in St. Petersburg for the G8 meeting. What role does the U.S. have in this?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] In the G8 meeting?[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] No. What role -- they're just gathered together -- in this, certainly the issue of Lebanon, Gaza, the Middle East is going to dominate that discussion. But how significant is the U.S. in this?


[color="#000066"][b]NOAM CHOMSKY:[/b] I think it will probably be very much like the UN resolution that you mentioned, which is -- Im sorry, I couldn't hear what Mouin Rabbani was saying. But the UN resolution was -- the veto of the UN resolution is standard. That goes back decades. The U.S. has virtually alone been blocking the possibility of diplomatic settlement, censure of Israeli crimes and atrocities. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the UN vetoed several resolutions right away, calling for an end to the fighting and so on, and that was a hideous invasion. And this continues through every administration. So I presume it will continue at the G8 meetings.

The United States regards Israel as virtually a militarized offshoot, and it protects it from criticism or actions and supports passively and, in fact, overtly supports its expansion, its attacks on Palestinians, its progressive takeover of what remains of Palestinian territory, and its acts to, well, actually realize a comment that Moshe Dayan made back in the early 70s when he was responsible for the Occupied Territories. He said to his cabinet colleagues that we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads. That's basically the policy. And I presume the U.S. will continue to advance that policy in one or another fashion.[/color]


[b]AMY GOODMAN:[/b] Noam Chomsky , I want to thank you for being with us. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. And Mouin Rabbani, senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group, joining us from Jerusalem. Thank you both.






[b][color="#FF0000"]= notice as well that Israel kidnapped 2 Gaza civilians the day before Hamas tunneled in to take their prisoner. [/color] [/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='294786' date='Jul 16 2006, 08:55 PM']Which is all I watch, right? And isn't Fox's precious Cameron the one that you're banking your entire belief system on with regards to his "uncovering the evil Mossad" story that magically disappeared?[/quote]


[b]5 years ago for a few nights straight ... Fox decided to be a real news organization ... however that got squashed and buried real fast by Zionist owner Murdoch ... and they have denied and know better to do it again for the most part, ever since. [/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#006600"][b]Israel now breaking out the poison gas and Uranium .... [/b] [/color]




[center][img]http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/July2%202006/beruit.jpg[/img][/center]

[quote]Israel is now [b]using poison gas[/b] and [b]depleted uranium shells[/b] on towns in the south of Lebanon. Residents of the small village of Kasarshoba became [b]violently ill, experiencing severe vomiting[/b], after the Israelis hit the village with poison gas. In other cases, underground shelters in southern Lebanon were hit by Israeli [b]depleted uranium shells[/b]. Our sources also report that the entire southern suburbs of southern Beirut, with a [b]population of 800,000, have been totally depopulated[/b]. Israel has targeted [b]thousands of civilian homes for destruction[/b].[/quote]



[url="http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/"]http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/[/url]