The Official War On christmas Thread

[Ben]

[url="http://www.newshounds.us/2006/12/12/bill_oreilly_calls_guest_fascist_then_immediately_denies_doing_it.php"]http://www.newshounds.us/2006/12/12/bill_o...es_doing_it.php[/url]

[quote]Bill O'Reilly Calls Guest Fascist Then Immediately Denies Doing It
Reported by Deborah - December 12, 2006 - 27 comments

Tonight Bill O'Reilly demonstrated for viewers just how nasty he can be when opposed. Wayne Madsen decided not to hide under his desk and bravely faced Christmas Bill after writing a critical article about his "war on christmas" in the Sacremento Bee. When Madsen told O'Reilly that the great war wasn't real, it was an oy vey or oh jeez moment, depending on your holiday symbol preference. 12/12/06

O'Reilly was astounded that Madsen didn't believe in the importance of his war informing him that the Supreme Court would be trying a case about it . When Madsen wasn't suitably impressed by the news, O'Reilly started to steam.

First he suggested in his most disgusted tone that he would speak slower so Madsen could understand. Then with a toe curling sneer he made hand gestures indicating small and large to show that the Supreme Court was big. Next he took issue with Madsen's assertion that he was trying to force people to say Merry Christmas insisting that he just didn't want people to be forbidden to say it. In O'Reilly World that's a glaring difference making it all too much for BOR so [b]he blurted out, " You are the fascist!"[/b]

Madsen responded with the line that everyone thinks while watching BOR. " If you're going to dish it out, you should be able to take it." Then O'Reilly came back with a classic line, "[b] All I did was describe you as a fascist. I haven't called you any names."[/b]

Madsen had insisted throughout the segment that he thought everyone should just enjoy the season and forget about conflicts. True to that notion, he wished BOR a Merry Christmas. Christmas Bill, a true ambassador of the season replied, " I'm not buying your act."[/quote]

[Ben]

After reading a bit up on this guy i'm suprised o'reilly didnt say anything worse....

org. article

[url="http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/91304.html"]http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/91304.html[/url]

[|Bunghole|]

I watched that segment last night, as my wife loves to make fun of O'Reilly. To be fair though, the guy that wrote the article in question called Bill a fascist, amongst other things in the article itself.
And there is a war of sorts on Christmas that I personally find offensive.
What was the story again about the Rabbi at the airport that was offended by Christams trees because there wasn't a menorah, threatened legal action and the airport removed the trees?
That kind of ACLU shit really, really bothers me.
I went to my stepdaughters' 6th grade school Christmas pageant the other night and they sang "Oh Come All Ye Faithful"....which has direct references to Christ in it, and I remember thinking "Man, thank God we live in this small town, otherwise we would be crawling with ACLU lawyers looking to remove 'Christ' from Christmas"
It is bothersome. If you don't believe in Christ then don't celebrate Christmas. It's really that simple.

[Guest bengalrick]

i love how the guyssaid that in his small town that there was no problems, then bill was like "did they pass a law in your town banning christmas trees?" and he said no, and bill asked him why the hell he wouldn't admit there is a war on christmas...

i know the "war on" cliches are wearing very old, but there is clearly a movement to minimalize christmas just based on the crazy ass lawsuits coming up everywhere... freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom FROM religion... it means that there can be everyones religious symbols displayed... that is not hard to understand...

[Ben]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406456' date='Dec 13 2006, 10:42 AM']I watched that segment last night, as my wife loves to make fun of O'Reilly. To be fair though, the guy that wrote the article in question called Bill a fascist, amongst other things in the article itself.
And there is a war of sorts on Christmas that I personally find offensive.
What was the story again about the Rabbi at the airport that was offended by Christams trees because there wasn't a menorah, threatened legal action and the airport removed the trees?
That kind of ACLU shit really, really bothers me.
I went to my stepdaughters' 6th grade school Christmas pageant the other night and they sang "Oh Come All Ye Faithful"....which has direct references to Christ in it, and I remember thinking "Man, thank God we live in this small town, otherwise we would be crawling with ACLU lawyers looking to remove 'Christ' from Christmas"
It is bothersome. If you don't believe in Christ then don't celebrate Christmas. It's really that simple.[/quote]

just researched that a bit.

1) ACLU had nothing to do w/ this
2) Tree was temporarily taken down until airport management had a chance to talk to lawyers
3) Tree is back up

[url="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003473318_seatactrees12m.html"]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...actrees12m.html[/url]

Questions, Airports are considered private businesses right, not public? I think private bus. should be able to do whatever the fuck they want and if a business thinks saying merry christmas will make them more money, then they will do it.

I do not agree if places like walmart force people to say, "Marry Christmas" though. Happy Holidays is a perfect replacement, and as a bonus it covers christmas, solstice, hannuka, kwanza, and whatever else i missed in one greeting.

As part of this.... A business have christmas shit is not discrimination..... If they denied service to someone because they were not christian.......another story.


I think the big thing people get their panties in a bunch about is when we have publicly funded/support shit, because it is a slippery slope towards a Government endorsed religion.

Oh well... i'm ranting...and i am not getting my thoughts to words very well.. i'll try to think about this a little more later when i'm not supposed to be working.

[Ben]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406456' date='Dec 13 2006, 10:42 AM']To be fair though, the guy that wrote the article in question called Bill a fascist, amongst other things in the article itself.[/quote]


Yeah, that is why i posted the original article that started all of this craziness. The guy also compares o'reilly to hitler i think. That is whyi said i was suprised o'reilly didnt do worse.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Ben' post='406472' date='Dec 13 2006, 11:08 AM']just researched that a bit.

1) ACLU had nothing to do w/ this
2) Tree was temporarily taken down until airport management had a chance to talk to lawyers
3) Tree is back up

[url="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003473318_seatactrees12m.html"]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...actrees12m.html[/url]

Questions, Airports are considered private businesses right, not public? I think private bus. should be able to do whatever the fuck they want and if a business thinks saying merry christmas will make them more money, then they will do it.

I do not agree if places like walmart force people to say, "Marry Christmas" though. Happy Holidays is a perfect replacement, and as a bonus it covers christmas, solstice, hannuka, kwanza, and whatever else i missed in one greeting.

As part of this.... A business have christmas shit is not discrimination..... If they denied service to someone because they were not christian.......another story.
I think the big thing people get their panties in a bunch about is when we have publicly funded/support shit, because it is a slippery slope towards a Government endorsed religion.

Oh well... i'm ranting...and i am not getting my thoughts to words very well.. i'll try to think about this a little more later when i'm not supposed to be working.[/quote]

I agree that we don't want a government endorsed religion, as that is the precept by which this country was supposedly founded.
And I know that the ACLU wasn't involved in this particular case, I was blanket generalizing them as they are involved quite heavily in this as well as a host of other touchy issues.
Nobody should ever think that the words "Merry Christmas" are offensive, either though.
Shit, plenty of people who don't really believe in God play along with the Christmas thing from the holiday/Santa/giving gifts angle.

[Ben]

I just figured instead of having a couple hundred threads about it this month.. we could just argue in one. Here is my first salvo!

Fire the Torpedos!!!!!!

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-12-18-gunn_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/edito...2-18-gunn_x.htm[/url]
[quote][b]A fictional 'war on Christmas'[/b]
By T. Jeremy Gunn

Last December, a group called Public Advocate for the United States (which claims to defend America's traditional family values) sent some Christmas carolers over to sing in front of the ACLU offices in Washington.

Carrying signs reading "Merry Christmas" and "Please Don't Sue Us!" — they also seem to have carried with them some rather strange imaginings about an assault on Christmas. (Related: Law doesn't mandate a secular Christmas | The year's dust-ups)

I don't know what the carolers thought might happen.

To tell the truth, the ACLU is not often serenaded by Christmas carolers. So it was with some excitement that the staff went outside and joined in the singing. They brought with them cookies and warm drinks to share. One staff member, who is an ordained Baptist minister, did a little witnessing about his faith to some astonished proponents of family values.

Fox News did broadcast the event (as a part of its "war against Christmas" campaign). Although the visiting singers were shown, the cameras failed to include any footage showing that everyone had participated in the caroling. Rather than reporting the facts, the anchor preferred the propaganda: "We believe the ACLU heard the message loud and clear, but they don't care."

[b]The battle cries[/b]

This year, several groups are once again introducing the Christmas season with some heated and misleading military rhetoric. Some declare, "There is a war against Christmas!" One group launched a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." One particularly bizarre charge is that there is "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign." Without a shred of evidence, they pretend that there is an effort afoot to remove "God" from the Declaration of Independence. Two groups even announced that they have assembled hundreds of lawyers to protect Christmas against this imaginary threat.

Make no mistake about it. These warrior-lawyers are not asking us to love our neighbors (and certainly not our enemies), nor to turn the other cheek, nor to be peacemakers, nor to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Nor is this a joyful effort to encourage the Christmas spirit in the millions of places where it can be promoted without any conflict: in people's hearts, in their homes, with families, in churches, or with friend and neighbors.

No, this is a campaign of military-infused rhetoric demanding that everyone accept one politically correct version of "Christmas."

For example, this year in Boston — the same city where Puritans once prohibited the pagan-inspired "Christmas tree" — the new Puritans now demand that the city call its evergreen spruce a "Christmas tree," and they threatened a lawsuit if the city didn't comply.

Another group charges that there is a "campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation" against seasonal symbols in Raleigh, N.C. — and they offer to provide a defense for the city against any threatened lawsuit. Yet they give no evidence that anyone is threatening a lawsuit. Before accusing others of engaging in "disinformation," perhaps these Christmas warriors should first take a look in the mirror.

Why this desire to manufacture controversy — about Christmas?
[b]
Guidelines already exist[/b]

Rather than engaging in propaganda about a "war on Christmas," all who want to promote the spirit of Christmas should remember a couple of simple guidelines.

First, Christmas displays — including nativity scenes — are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. This religious expression is a valued and protected part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed to all citizens.

Second, governments should not be in the business of endorsing religious displays. Religion does best when government stays out of the business of deciding which holidays and religions to promote. Religion belongs where it prospers best: with individuals, families and religious communities.

And finally, as a seasonal greeting to all Christians: Merry Christmas from the ACLU! And for believers in all other traditions: Thank you for enriching our world!

T. Jeremy Gunn is director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.[/quote]

[|Bunghole|]

Why is Christmas a Federal Holiday?

[Jamie_B]

I will never understand why the two sides have to "war" over this, when much more important things are happening. Let them say merry christmas if they want, if they dont dont force them to. Both sides are just as absurd.

Case in point.

[url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/12/12/atheists_demand_removal_of_church_bells_owned_by_municipality/"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/connectic...y_municipality/[/url]

[quote]Atheists demand removal of church bells owned by municipality

GRISWOLD, Conn. --Local officials vow that the bells of a Baptist church will continue to peal above the complaints of atheists.

A sound system owned by the borough of Jewett City and the town of Griswold and housed in a church has prompted the Connecticut chapter of American Atheists Inc. to demand that the governments cut their ties with the bells. The group also wants the volume turned down.

More than 75 residents pushed back Monday, demanding that the borough's Board of Warden and Burgesses not silence the sound system that plays the chimes heard throughout the area.

Some officials say that barring a court order or legal advice to the contrary, the bells will continue to sound.

"The bells will continue to toll until they stop us," Borough Warden Cynthia Kata said.

Burgess Patrick Sullivan was defiant.

"The borough is not gonna run," he said. "We're here, and we're gonna fight."

Dennis Paul Himes, director of the Connecticut atheists chapter and William Russell, a chapter member and a Norwich resident who initially complained about the chimes, did not attend Monday's meeting. They said they were not invited, though Kata disputed the claim.

Himes said Monday that the borough and the town should sell the sound equipment to the church or a private organization. Municipal involvement with the bells violates the separation of church and state and that the arrangement permits the church to benefit from government property, he said.

Atheists have on occasion sued over such issues as the dispute in Griswold but that the group's resources are limited and chooses its legal battles carefully, Himes said.

Russell said if the town and borough refuse to sell the sound system or move it to a secular site, he will "take the issue to wherever and whoever I have to."

"If you read your Constitution, government is not supposed to promote any religion," he said. "What are the bells in the Baptist Church doing? Promoting religion."

If a lawsuit ensues, several residents and businesses say they will buy the equipment and donate it to the church.[/quote]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='406512' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:36 PM']I will never understand why the two sides have to "war" over this, when much more important things are happening. Let them say merry christmas if they want, if they dont dont force them to. Both sides are just as absurd.

Case in point.

[url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/12/12/atheists_demand_removal_of_church_bells_owned_by_municipality/"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/connectic...y_municipality/[/url][/quote]
Thank God the Liberty Bell is cracked, otherwise ringing it might promote.....liberty. we don't want the government getting involved in the endorsement and spread of liberty....or democracy, right?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406515' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:45 PM']Thank God the Liberty Bell is cracked, otherwise ringing it might promote.....liberty. we don't want the government getting involved in the endorsement and spread of liberty....or democracy, right?
[/quote]


You damn americans and your american values.

Im a US Citizen damn it!!


(Im just messin with ya coy)

[Ben]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406510' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:15 PM']Why is Christmas a Federal Holiday?[/quote]

Kinda crazy.. it was not a holiday until 1870 and before that a lot of people objected to it, because the thought it was pagan.

[Ben]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='406512' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:36 PM']I will never understand why the two sides have to "war" over this, when much more important things are happening. Let them say merry christmas if they want, if they dont dont force them to. Both sides are just as absurd.

Case in point.

[url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/12/12/atheists_demand_removal_of_church_bells_owned_by_municipality/"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/connectic...y_municipality/[/url][/quote]

I've been trying to figure out what the two sides are.

[Ben]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406510' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:15 PM']Why is Christmas a Federal Holiday?[/quote]

I've been trying to find information on what lead to the US making it a holiday. I thought it had to do w/ the commies at first, since that is where "Under god" and all that stuff came from. But it happened in 1870, so no dice. In my ressearch i found an interesting article from teh Christian Science Monitor.

[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1201/p09s03-coop.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1201/p09s03-coop.html[/url]

[quote]To truly honor Christmas, end its status as an official holiday
Returning Dec. 25 to ordinary status would let Christmas be observed for the right reasons.

By Mary Jane Wilkie
MORRISTOWN, N.J.

I'm not a fanatic atheist or a self-righteous secular humanist. I'm a practicing Christian. But I think Christmas should be stricken from the list of legal holidays in America.

In a nation where people routinely declare their adherence to separation of church and state, a national Christmas holiday is hypocrisy. Returning Dec. 25 to ordinary status - as it was before 1870, when Congress made it a federal holiday - has many practical benefits. More important, it would restore the integrity of how Christians honor the birth of Jesus Christ.

Ending Christmas as a legal holiday would help eliminate the seasonal frenzy. Who hasn't crossed paths with parents crazed by desire to procure the right gift to win their child's affection? Who has not observed mothers anxious about re-creating Grandma's perfect Christmas dinner? Who isn't weary by the time the great day arrives?

I can hear the cries of merchants: "The economy would collapse!" "My company would go out of business!" But an economy built on stimulation of desire for the useless items I see for sale each year should review its underpinnings. We all have more desires than needs, and most Americans have more "stuff" than we could use in a lifetime.

As a former teacher, I can attest that schools would benefit enormously from making Dec. 25 just another day of the week. The long holiday interruption, coming on the heels of Thanksgiving, makes it hard to maintain continuity in classroom activities. The weeks between Thanksgiving and start of Christmas break are weighed down with so many holiday obligations that scant progress is made with the curriculum.

And the "December dilemma" looms large in schools. I refer to the mood affecting teachers, parents, and students as they wonder whether they can mention Jesus, Bethlehem, Wise Men, or shepherds without offending someone. Adults tend to deal with the issue by banishing materials that might be construed as religious. Children are thus rightly confused at the notion of celebrating a holiday - really, a holy day - whose origin cannot be mentioned. I remember having tense discussions about the content in what is now routinely called the "holiday music program." Fear of offending anyone usually produces programs that are saccharine, devoid of meaningful content.

Then there is the workplace. The demise of the office Christmas party would hurt no one. Often, a few eggnog-drunk employees engage in naughty activities, or make ill-considered remarks about or to the boss. Party defenders call it an event to thank workers, but there is nothing to prevent employers from granting year-end bonuses, or celebrating a firm's progress in ways less fraught with temptations.

Last , and most important to me personally, is that ending Christmas as a legal holiday would force those of us who are Christians to identify ourselves as such. All Christians - practicing or nominal - would be faced with the decision to take Dec. 24 and 25 as personal days. How many would honor their faith and respect their traditions by doing so?

Traditions are important, because they force old foes to shake hands, and they reinforce community. These important functions are not served by the mobs shopping for yet another useless object. Gifts should be the sign of special attentiveness toward another person, an observation of what that person needs in a deep emotional sense. This is a rare occurrence in most Christmas gift-giving.

Unburdened of the glitter and tinsel, the piped-in sugary music at the malls, the frenzied shopping, Christmas could breathe again, become what it was intended to be, and observed in a spirit of devotion by those of us who believe in Jesus, our Christ.

• Mary Jane Wilkie directs the Sunday School at St. Peter's Episcopal Church in Morristown, N.J.[/quote]

[ChicagoBengal]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406456' date='Dec 13 2006, 09:42 AM']I watched that segment last night, as my wife loves to make fun of O'Reilly. To be fair though, the guy that wrote the article in question called Bill a fascist, amongst other things in the article itself.
And there is a war of sorts on Christmas that I personally find offensive.
What was the story again about the Rabbi at the airport that was offended by Christams trees because there wasn't a menorah, threatened legal action and the airport removed the trees?
That kind of ACLU shit really, really bothers me.
I went to my stepdaughters' 6th grade school Christmas pageant the other night and they sang "Oh Come All Ye Faithful"....which has direct references to Christ in it, and I remember thinking "Man, thank God we live in this small town, otherwise we would be crawling with ACLU lawyers looking to remove 'Christ' from Christmas"
It is bothersome. [b]If you don't believe in Christ then don't celebrate Christmas. It's really that simple.[/b][/quote]
Fuck that!!! I'm nothing if not materialistic. Nothing against JC, btw.

[Ben]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='406621' date='Dec 13 2006, 03:24 PM']Fuck that!!! I'm nothing if not materialistic. Nothing against JC, btw.[/quote]

Same... Booze, food, presents... passing out on the floor. hell yeah.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][img]http://members.aol.com/lupinaccim/war-on-christmas-card-1.jpg[/img][/center]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][img]http://www.scrantontimestribune.com/cartoons/2005/1216toon.jpg[/img]





[img]http://members.aol.com/lupinaccim/war-on-christmas-card-3.jpg[/img][/center]

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Ben' post='406536' date='Dec 13 2006, 01:19 PM']Kinda crazy.. it was not a holiday until 1870 and before that a lot of people objected to it, because the thought it was pagan.[/quote]


Indeed. I do not celebrate Christmas. When people ask me why, I tell them that I'm neither pagan nor Catholic, so it has nothing to do with me. I find it far more relaxing to go about my normal routine without getting caught up in the Christmas hoopla, and enjoy the lights and trees and things for the misguided pagan spectacle that they are. Happy Brumalia, mollyfocks.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/154-waronchristmas.gif[/img][/center]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][color="#FF0000"][b][size=5]From the front lines of the [color="#006600"]WAR[/color] ..... [/size] [/b] [/color]


[img]http://dorkafork.com/myimages/waronxmas/grinchshot.jpg[/img]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/37.gif[/img] [/center]

[Jamie_B]

Got this in an email (from my brother in law's dad who is a democrat)

[quote]To My Democrat and Republican Friends...

For my Democrat friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting these greetings, you are accepting the aforementioned terms as stated. This greeting is not subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself/himself/others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

For my Republican friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year![/quote]

[Guest fredtoast]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='406478' date='Dec 13 2006, 11:12 AM']Nobody should ever think that the words "Merry Christmas" are offensive, either though.[/quote]

From an artical in USA Today:

only 5% of Americans are offended by the phrase "Merry Christmas" while 45% are offended by the phrase "Happy Holidays"

This shit is getting completely crazy. These people actually want to FORCE people to say :"Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays".

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='407173' date='Dec 14 2006, 02:36 PM']From an artical in USA Today:

only 5% of Americans are offended by the phrase "Merry Christmas" while 45% are offended by the phrase "Happy Holidays"

This shit is getting completely crazy. These people actually want to FORCE people to say :"Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays".[/quote]


Why is it even a "war" why cant people say either depending on their own faith. (Because the reverse of people being forced to say happy holidays is true too)

Seriously there are far more important things in the world than this.