* Need Info: HDTV Over-The-Air - WKRC Issues *

[-GoBengals-]

Ok, so i have hd locals on my cable, no biggie, i have a seriously bad need for getting WKRC over the air with an over the air HDTV antenna, I bought one at wal mart, a pwoered phillips one.. uhf/vhf, works amazingly on other channels.. it WONT grab WKRC.. seems to be a common issue around town..

supposidly with a "winegard sensar antenna" itll come in on channel 31..

i dont even know what that is..

seems to be one at newegg.com thats smll enough to be used indoors to work...

but im lost as to wtf the issue really is, seems wkrc hasnt fully switched over?

and why a normal antenna wont work..

and whats special about that type of antenna that makes it grab the signal?

[cincybengalz]

Go, I'm not from Cincinnati, but I do have some pretty good knowledge of these dishes. I'm not familiar with the model you purchased, but check this out... http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034

That dish will be able to change channels,gain, and reception with automatic rotation. I can get channels inside my house as far as Baltimore (live outside of Philly) using Windows Media Center with this dish. You just have to dial it up for certain channels, but it will work wonderfully. Check it out.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='cincybengalz' date='24 August 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1251159304' post='794566']
Go, I'm not from Cincinnati, but I do have some pretty good knowledge of these dishes. I'm not familiar with the model you purchased, but check this out... [url="http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034"]http://www.radioshac...oductId=2131034[/url]

That dish will be able to change channels,gain, and reception with automatic rotation. I can get channels inside my house as far as Baltimore (live outside of Philly) using Windows Media Center with this dish. You just have to dial it up for certain channels, but it will work wonderfully. Check it out.
[/quote]

thanks..

oo, i may try that....the WKRC issues seems to be somewhat cincinnati specific, but it seems a powerful antenna maybe fixes the issue? i dunno, i was hoping someone local knew some more..

alli want is WKRC, i have it and every other channel known to man on my cable plan in hd.. i just need ONE channel to come over the air onto my macbook, its the only reason i need it.

and its the only one that doesnt come in the with antenna i have now (phillips from wal mart)

[esjbh2]

Go:

I've got this cheap antenna in my 2nd floor bedroom (I've got TW cable, but I've been too lazy to run the cable up there):
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1251161813&sr=8-1"]$35 Terk Antenna[/url]

If I set the direction just right, I can get all the local HD channels including 12-1. I used to have issues with 9-1 until they just recently bumped the signal strength. You can get direction based on your address at this url:
[url="http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx"]www.antennaweb.org[/url]

Fill out your address including street and zip, then when it calculates pick 'View Street Level Map'.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='esjbh2' date='24 August 2009 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1251162359' post='794576']
Go:

I've got this cheap antenna in my 2nd floor bedroom (I've got TW cable, but I've been too lazy to run the cable up there):
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1251161813&sr=8-1"]$35 Terk Antenna[/url]

If I set the direction just right, I can get all the local HD channels including 12-1. I used to have issues with 9-1 until they just recently bumped the signal strength. You can get direction based on your address at this url:
[url="http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx"]www.antennaweb.org[/url]

Fill out your address including street and zip, then when it calculates pick 'View Street Level Map'.
[/quote]


thanks!

it says i need a medium directional antenna...

i googled that.. target sells some it seems...

looks like a huge mass, but shipping dimensions are small, perhaps it requires some assembly...

im in an APT. so i cant mount anything outside.. atleast nothing tooo huge.. and even then getting the signal inside seems troublesome..

so something indoor is needed..

the turk you listed they ahve at best buy.. i almost went to grab that one today actually..

where abouts do you live?

[whodey319]

will any of these antennas get signals from columbus while in cincy so i can watch the game thursday

[esjbh2]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='24 August 2009 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1251162915' post='794583']
thanks!

it says i need a medium directional antenna...

i googled that.. target sells some it seems...

looks like a huge mass, but shipping dimensions are small, perhaps it requires some assembly...

im in an APT. so i cant mount anything outside.. atleast nothing tooo huge.. and even then getting the signal inside seems troublesome..

so something indoor is needed..

the turk you listed they ahve at best buy.. i almost went to grab that one today actually..

where abouts do you live?
[/quote]

I live in Anderson (Cincy Eastside) in traditional 2 story house (vinyl siding on 2nd floor) and antenna in 2nd floor bedroom on outside wall. I mention this because if you're in a brick apartment buried in the basement or lower floor you may not have as good a luck. I tried my antenna in the basement (poured concrete foundation) and it didn't work well at all, so your results may vary.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='whodey319' date='24 August 2009 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1251162990' post='794585']
will any of these antennas get signals from columbus while in cincy so i can watch the game thursday
[/quote]

there is probably one out there that wil lreach that far... but most under $150-200 are about 50-60 miles range.. so youll be looking at high cost..

all to watch live isntead of late as fuck..

[The Traveler]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='24 August 2009 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1251154910' post='794551']
Ok, so i have hd locals on my cable, no biggie, i have a seriously bad need for getting WKRC over the air with an over the air HDTV antenna, I bought one at wal mart, a pwoered phillips one.. uhf/vhf, works amazingly on other channels.. it WONT grab WKRC.. seems to be a common issue around town..

supposidly with a "winegard sensar antenna" itll come in on channel 31..

i dont even know what that is..

seems to be one at newegg.com thats smll enough to be used indoors to work...

but im lost as to wtf the issue really is, seems wkrc hasnt fully switched over?

and why a normal antenna wont work..

and whats special about that type of antenna that makes it grab the signal?
[/quote]


WKRC digital was on UHF channel 31 until they shut down their analog transmitter on June 12th. At that time, they moved their digital station to Channel 12, which is VHF. They can only be received by a VHF antenna. Do not buy a UHF-only antenna.

VHF does not penetrate walls, brick or wood and thus does not travel indoors well. UHF does. There is a power difference. The higher the frequency, the more power is required to travel the same distance. When on Channel 31, they transmitted 800,000 watts. Now they transmit about 16,000 watts on VHF. Believe it or not, the FCC thinks this is about equal. Anyway many of the stations that switched to their VHF channels are now regretting it and some have petitioned the FCC for more power or to move back to UHF. Due to the proximity of Canada, the Canadian equivalent to the FCC has to approve changes as well, so any relief won't come until next year, at the earliest.

You might ask why they moved. I don't know, but it could be marketing-driven, wanting to actually transmit on their branded channel name. Most other stations are no longer on their original channels and they transmit a code that causes tuners to remap it to their branded Channel. The other reason to change is that since VHF takes much less power there is a lot of savings in their electrical bill. On the negative side, VHF is more susceptible to electrical interference, especially lightning and nearby power lines (Don't vacuum the floor while the game it on). In any case, when the November sweeps come out and their over the air ratings drop, they will likely do something about the problem.

Channel 9 is actually on Channel 10, but they transmit at 19,000 watts and have moved their antenna up to the top of their tower. WKRC reused their analog antenna, which experts told me does not hinder the transmission. I live north of Dayton and can receive Channel 9 on my outdoor VHF antenna with amplifier. When WKRC was on channel 31, I had no problen receiving them. Now, I can just barely get them on Channel 12. The problems have been well documented on avsforum [url="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=306883&pp=20&highlight=Cincinnati&page=1000"]Cincinnati thread[/url].

Now, how to optimize. RF goes through glass with minimal loss. If you can put the indoor VHF antenna in a window that faces the towers, you will get more signal than through a wall. Second, the VHF portion of a set of rabbit ears is the telescoping antenna rods. There is a mathematical formula on how to optimize the length to the station that you are trying to pick up. I think Channel 10 is 31 inches. So Channel 12 would be slightly shorter. Generally VHF rabbit ears work best with the antennas flat (horizontal). In some cases, raising them may help, but in theory, you have a dipole (basic type of antenna) only when they are flat. Finally, the higher you go, the better the signal will generally be. In-line amplifiers are OK, but do not stack them (use more than one) as additional amplifiers just amplify the noise.

I own the Terk mentioned. It is an OK UHF antenna, but it is no different than amplified rabbit ears for VHF. If Channel 12 is what you want, save your money and find a cheaper pair of amplified rabbit ears.

Sorry for the length on my first post, but I registered just to reply to this thread, since DTV is my hobby.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='The Traveler' date='25 August 2009 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1251243139' post='794776']
WKRC digital was on UHF channel 31 until they shut down their analog transmitter on June 12th. At that time, they moved their digital station to Channel 12, which is VHF. They can only be received by a VHF antenna. Do not buy a UHF-only antenna.

VHF does not penetrate walls, brick or wood and thus does not travel indoors well. UHF does. There is a power difference. The higher the frequency, the more power is required to travel the same distance. When on Channel 31, they transmitted 800,000 watts. Now they transmit about 16,000 watts on VHF. Believe it or not, the FCC thinks this is about equal. Anyway many of the stations that switched to their VHF channels are now regretting it and some have petitioned the FCC for more power or to move back to UHF. Due to the proximity of Canada, the Canadian equivalent to the FCC has to approve changes as well, so any relief won't come until next year, at the earliest.

You might ask why they moved. I don't know, but it could be marketing-driven, wanting to actually transmit on their branded channel name. Most other stations are no longer on their original channels and they transmit a code that causes tuners to remap it to their branded Channel. The other reason to change is that since VHF takes much less power there is a lot of savings in their electrical bill. On the negative side, VHF is more susceptible to electrical interference, especially lightning and nearby power lines (Don't vacuum the floor while the game it on). In any case, when the November sweeps come out and their over the air ratings drop, they will likely do something about the problem.

Channel 9 is actually on Channel 10, but they transmit at 19,000 watts and have moved their antenna up to the top of their tower. WKRC reused their analog antenna, which experts told me does not hinder the transmission. I live north of Dayton and can receive Channel 9 on my outdoor VHF antenna with amplifier. When WKRC was on channel 31, I had no problen receiving them. Now, I can just barely get them on Channel 12. The problems have been well documented on avsforum [url="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=306883&pp=20&highlight=Cincinnati&page=1000"]Cincinnati thread[/url].

Now, how to optimize. RF goes through glass with minimal loss. If you can put the indoor VHF antenna in a window that faces the towers, you will get more signal than through a wall. Second, the VHF portion of a set of rabbit ears is the telescoping antenna rods. There is a mathematical formula on how to optimize the length to the station that you are trying to pick up. I think Channel 10 is 31 inches. So Channel 12 would be slightly shorter. Generally VHF rabbit ears work best with the antennas flat (horizontal). In some cases, raising them may help, but in theory, you have a dipole (basic type of antenna) only when they are flat. Finally, the higher you go, the better the signal will generally be. In-line amplifiers are OK, but do not stack them (use more than one) as additional amplifiers just amplify the noise.

I own the Terk mentioned. It is an OK UHF antenna, but it is no different than amplified rabbit ears for VHF. If Channel 12 is what you want, save your money and find a cheaper pair of amplified rabbit ears.

Sorry for the length on my first post, but I registered just to reply to this thread, since DTV is my hobby.
[/quote]


thanks for the reply, the detail certainly explained most of the questions i had all around, and thanks for registering, hope you post more!

I was being stupid, and before boxing up the antenna i had, figured "maybe if i tilt it towards the city instead of twoards my window, itll work" i rotated the square part of the antenna before, but i switched the rabbit ears to square up to cincy's direction. i did a rescan.. and sure as hell WKRC came in on 12-1 in perfectly clear HD..

if i turn the antenna even slightly, it goes away completely..

since i know I can get it indoors as is.. is there something I can grab to make it more "reliable" so if a kid runs into it it doesnt go away.. as i wont be home when its being used, and some people will be very upset if signal is lost..

i have this one: http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_productid_SDV6122_27_US_CONSUMER/TV-antenna+SDV6122-27

money isnt a huge issue if it works reliably, but it needs to be somewhat reasonable for indoor use (size and so on).. if i can just strap some rabbit ears to the window with tape im fine with that, whatever will work best for me.

Thanks again!

[The Traveler]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='25 August 2009 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1251253944' post='794800']
thanks for the reply, the detail certainly explained most of the questions i had all around, and thanks for registering, hope you post more!

I was being stupid, and before boxing up the antenna i had, figured "maybe if i tilt it towards the city instead of twoards my window, itll work" i rotated the square part of the antenna before, but i switched the rabbit ears to square up to cincy's direction. i did a rescan.. and sure as hell WKRC came in on 12-1 in perfectly clear HD..

if i turn the antenna even slightly, it goes away completely..

since i know I can get it indoors as is.. is there something I can grab to make it more "reliable" so if a kid runs into it it doesnt go away.. as i wont be home when its being used, and some people will be very upset if signal is lost..

i have this one: http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_productid_SDV6122_27_US_CONSUMER/TV-antenna+SDV6122-27

money isnt a huge issue if it works reliably, but it needs to be somewhat reasonable for indoor use (size and so on).. if i can just strap some rabbit ears to the window with tape im fine with that, whatever will work best for me.

Thanks again!
[/quote]

One of the nice things about digital television is that if you get the signal just 15db above the noise floor, the picture will be perfect. So you never know how stong or weak your signal really is. Most tuner indicators are not signal strength, but signal quality. It measures the number of bit errors received. The data stream has lots of error correction embedded in it so you will get a decent picture with a lot of lost data due to noise.

Since your antenna is amplified, there is not much that can be done except to adjust the length of the rabbit ears. I would point them in the direction to get Ch12 and then slowly extend and/or shorten them (same amount on each one, about a quarter inch each try) and then twist/tilt the antenna to see whether you are gaining or losing signal. Hopefully you will find the perfect length and have some wiggle room on the placement.

Since the frequencies used for VHF-Hi band (Ch 7-13) require rather long elements and in theory one element for each Channel, anything with more gain than rabbit ears is meant for outdoor use. The following site lists length versus channel number: [url="http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html"]Rabbit ears length vs channel Chart[/url]. According to this site, the length should be 27 inches. In general, higher is better, too. The antenna (ears) should be spread flat for maximum gain on a single channel. When vertical, they tend to act like variable length and pick up a range of channels, but with less signal gain. If Ch 12 is all you want, then try laying the ears horizontal.

For UHF, the size is reasonable and there are some amazing indoor UHF antennas.

Hope this helps.