Jamie_B Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jul 11 2005, 02:10 AM'][i][b]If I didn't take knowledge from anyone who called themself a Christian I would be cutting out a huge majority of the population. Can there be smart people who call themselves Christians... sure. As for the dickweeds, I was refering to the people who have co opted Jesus for political Reasons (W and the Gang, [color="red"]Pat Robertson[/color], Falwell) they pay attention to about 30 % of what Jesus talked about and ignore the rest.... especially the chairty, and not casting stones part. As for Marvin being a christian of course he is.... he is the Son of God not that loser on the stained Glass Hey Sues. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] [/b][/i] [right][post="113015"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Man you put me in a weird posititon having to defend this guy, but ... [url="http://www.one.org/Signatories.aspx"]http://www.one.org/Signatories.aspx[/url] Scroll down to the bottom of the page and tell me who that is on there? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote]Man you put me in a weird posititon having to defend this guy, but ... [url="http://www.one.org/Signatories.aspx"]http://www.one.org/Signatories.aspx[/url] Scroll down to the bottom of the page and tell me who that is on there?[/quote] [quote][img]http://www.one.org/images/signatories/patrobertson.jpg[/img][/quote] [i][b]I don't give a fuck what program that bigoted, simple minded, piece of shit dildo signs up for. He is still one of the biggest assholes to ever walk the earth and I hope he dies Sheewww [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img] nothing gets the blood boiling like Pat RObertson or Falwell.... makes me wanna do some jihad [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Ok count to 10 No I was just refuting your point about charity thats all. Im not exactly a fan of his but I also think people tend to generalize and demonize people on both sides. Part of that whole wide brush thing that all of us tend to paint with sometimes. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jul 9 2005, 02:03 PM']Actually there is NO existing evidence from any historians of the time that Jesus ever even existed Buddah and Muhammad yes but not Christ. [color="red"][i][b]if anyone would like to refute this please provide evidence of the existence of Christ from the time he was alive ???? I'll be waiting patiently for the historical breakthrough [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//30.gif[/img] [/b][/i][/color] [right][post="112623"][/post][/right][/quote] How do those of us who believe in the historicity of Jesus Christ respond to such allegations? Can we really know that there was a sinless, miracle-working, death-defying man named Jesus who lived upon the Earth approximately 2,000 years ago, or have we accepted His existence blindly? Even though the New Testament proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus actually lived, it is by no means the only historical evidence available. Around the year A.D. 94, a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus mentioned Jesus’ name twice in his book, Antiquities of the Jews. In section 18 of that work, Josephus wrote: “And there arose about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure†(emp. added). Then, in section 20, Josephus documented how a man named Ananus brought before the Sanhedrin “a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others†(emp. added). About 20 years later, Tacitus, a Roman historian, wrote a book surveying the history of Rome. In it he described how Nero (the Roman emperor) “punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called).†He went on to write that “their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus†(Annals 15:44, emp. added). Even though Tacitus, Josephus, and other historians from the first and second centuries A.D. were not followers of Christ, they did have something to say about Himâ€â€and they even verified that Jesus was a real person Who was so famous that He even attracted the attention of the Roman emperor himself! Another obvious reason to believe that Jesus was a real person is because our entire dating method is based upon His existence. The letters “B.C.†stand for “before Christ,†and the letters “A.D.†(standing for Anno Domini) mean “in the year of the Lord.†So when a history teacher speaks of Alexander the Great ruling much of the world in 330 B.C., he or she is admitting that Alexander lived about 330 years before Jesus was born. Even though this is only a sampling of the evidence relating to the man known as Jesus, it is enough to prove that He was a real person, and not just some imaginary character. We do not accept His existence blindlyâ€â€it is a historical fact! [url="http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1764"]http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1764[/url] Here is more... [url="http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php"]http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote]. Around the year A.D. 94,[/quote] [i][b] Old you just proved my point..... Even the Gospels were written over a hundred years after the death of Christ. For comparison look at Ceaser who lived a few decades before Christ.... He had his historians record every battle, foe, person they fought against, etc. There were historians everywhere and NOONE until 90 years after the death of Christ decide to even mention his name ???? Because he was made up later, and they just combined the Myths of Mithras, Appolonius of Tyanna, and the Egptian God Osiris, who each share over 30 similarities with Jesus and pre date him (virgin mother, crucified, healed the sick, etc)[/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaker Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='oldschooler' date='Jul 13 2005, 08:10 PM']Even though the New Testament proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus actually lived, it is by no means the only historical evidence available. We do not accept His existence blindlyâ€â€it is a historical fact! [right][post="113914"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Old, I personally do not take the Old Testament as a historical document. To me it is more of a collection of stories and parables. There is a difference between recorded historical happenings, such as accounts of battles, and recording the religious fables of the time period. Jesus' existences is only a "fact" in the eyes of those in your position. It is actually still being debated by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jul 13 2005, 02:54 PM'][i][b] Old you just proved my point..... Even the Gospels were written over a hundred years after the death of Christ. For comparison look at Ceaser who lived a few decades before Christ.... He had his historians record every battle, foe, person they fought against, etc. There were historians everywhere and NOONE until 90 years after the death of Christ decide to even mention his name ???? Because he was made up later, and they just combined the Myths of Mithras, Appolonius of Tyanna, and the Egptian God Osiris, who each share over 30 similarities with Jesus and pre date him (virgin mother, crucified, healed the sick, etc)[/b][/i] [right][post="113926"][/post][/right][/quote] Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus lived... But you base your "facts" on the fact that he wasn`t written about until 94 A.D ? ...OK... but funny how our entire dating methods are based upon His existence... Here are more facts that won`t sway you to at least believe that Jesus the MAN lived... The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look at what some of these people have said. [b]Cornelius Tacitus[/b] Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record. [b]Lucian of Samosata[/b] Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus. [b]Suetonius[/b] Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ]. [b]Pliny the Younger[/b] Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god. [b]Thallus and Phlegon[/b] Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died. [b]Mara Bar-Serapion[/b] Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus. [b]Josephus[/b] (again) Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! [b]The four Gospels[/b] The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels. Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously! [url="http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php"]http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Beaker' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:39 PM']Old, I personally do not take the Old Testament as a historical document. To me it is more of a collection of stories and parables. There is a difference between recorded historical happenings, such as accounts of battles, and recording the religious fables of the time period. Jesus' existences is only a "fact" in the eyes of those in your position. It is actually still being debated by others. [right][post="113951"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] That was a quote from the website I provided a link too. I didn`t write a word of it... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 [i][b]OLD all of those examples are ones just as old as 94 A.D. Sure these men were born in 30-40 AD but they didn't write about him till 70-80 AD.... point being that there is nothing from the time of Christ that says... there is this guy Jesus walking around here.... Only the game of telephone decades and decades later.... also as I have pointed about there were many Messiah type figures that had the name "Jesus" and they were not the one of the Bible. [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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