Rumsfeld should be shot

[BengalsCat]

Ok u know fincial policy of the current president will not fully hit the country until he leaves office u fucking prat... Clinton had 8 years to dismantle our fucking military.. Get A FUCKING CLUE.. PLEASE PLEASE GO OUT AND INVEST IN A GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION because u clearly dont have one man... maybe if u had any clue on political and fincial ramafication of anything u might be able to bring across a better point.. cause i like the stuff u talk about the bengals but u dont know shit about politics man... seriousely u need help big help

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

We can print our on money, the money is there, the politicians should do the decent thing(for once) and protect our soliders.<<< THAT IS FUCKIN RETARTED MAN... We can print our own money yes but the more me print the less our money is valued basic econ man..... If we just printed off money to pay for shit our money wouldnt be worth the paper its printed on... And the billions of dollars we have found go to the iraqy people. Also LIBERALS IN CONGRESS ARE OPOSED TO TAKING MONEY FOUND IN A FORIEGN COUNTRY TO SPEND ON OUR TROOPS. so go talk to ur party on that one man..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK guys I wasn't serious about printing money, I know that won't happen, but something must be done to protect our soliders lives and if it is an isssue of not having enough money then we could print more of it. There is no reason why our soliders should be digging through Iraqi scrap heaps to find metal to plate their vehciles, no good reason whatsoever.

Also I don't afflilate myself with any particular party so please don't try to peg me as a tree hugging dem, thanks. I just think Duh-bu-ya is the worst president ever and his adminstration is ruining America, besides that everything is cool.

[BengalsCat]

Ok i agree something needs to be done but it doesnt involve printing more money thats for damn sure.. And i am very unhappy that our troops are under suplied << let me make that perfectly clear.. .But the reasons they are under supplied are due to bugget cuts in the 90's because they couldnt invest into new technology to make the armor better.... Also armor takes time to be made and created. Even if we freed up money now there is only so much available armor to get. So again it goes back to the point we should have been buying it all along before the war regadless <<CLINTONS FAULT AGAIN... alright??

[Ben]

Ok u know fincial policy of the current president will not fully hit the country until he leaves office u fucking prat... Clinton had 8 years to dismantle our fucking military.. Get A FUCKING CLUE.. PLEASE PLEASE GO OUT AND INVEST IN A GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION because u clearly dont have one man... maybe if u had any clue on political and fincial ramafication of anything u might be able to bring across a better point.. cause i like the stuff u talk about the bengals but u dont know shit about politics man... seriousely u need help big help

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well...then everything that is happening now is bush's fault. We should be feeling the effects of his decisions now that we have been through a term.

[Guest BengalBacker]

We can print our on money, the money is there, the politicians should do the decent thing(for once) and protect our soliders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow.

This reminds me of when I was about 5 years old. I thought that if I had a checkbook I'd be rich because I could just write a check for everything.

[Guest BengalLady]

Wow.

This reminds me of when I was about 5 years old. I thought that if I had a checkbook I'd be rich because I could just write a check for everything.

   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, me too. I would ask for something at the store and my mom would say no, I don't have the money. I would say, just write a check. I was clueless. Haha.

But ya, I agree.

I HATE THIS THREAD, I WISH I WOULD STOP READING IT.

[creechnasty]

Fuckin republicans at it again....

[BengalsCat]

Ben it takes a minimum of 4-6 years for economic polices to affect the country. Thats why reganomics was the reason for the growth boom in the mid 90's during the clinton era... After that we had a resestion when clinton's fincial policys started taking effect. Bush policy should start effecting this country in the next year or two... And if everything goes as planned the country will be in an upswing(hopefully)....

[Ben]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1...wiRg&refer=home

[Guest BengalBacker]

Well whatta ya know. The media is supposed to report the news, not instigate it.

RUMSFELD SET UP; REPORTER PLANTED QUESTIONS WITH SOLIDER

Thu Dec 09 2004 11:49 8 ET

Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, now in Kuwait preparing to enter Iraq, and is filing articles for his newspaper. Pitts claims in a purported email that he coached soldiers to ask Defense Secretary Rumsfeld questions!

When reached Thursday morning, various Chattanooga Times Free Press staffers offered 'no comment' on the development.

From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS

Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM

To: Staffers

Subject: RE: Way to go

I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.

So during the Q&A session, one of my guys was the second person called on. When he asked Rumsfeld why after two years here soldiers are still having to dig through trash bins to find rusted scrap metal and cracked ballistic windows for their Humvees, the place erupted in cheers so loud that Rumsfeld had to ask the guy to repeat his question. Then Rumsfeld answered something about it being "not a lack of desire or money but a logistics/physics problem." He said he recently saw about 8 of the special up-armored Humvees guarding Washington, DC, and he promised that they would no longer be used for that and that he would send them over here. Then he asked a three star general standing behind him, the commander of all ground forces here, to also answer the question. The general said it was a problem he is working on.

The great part was that after the event was over the throng of national media following Rumsfeld- The New York Times, AP, all the major networks -- swarmed to the two soldiers I brought from the unit I am embedded with. Out of the 1,000 or so troops at the event there were only a handful of guys from my unit b/c the rest were too busy prepping for our trip north. The national media asked if they were the guys with the armor problem and then stuck cameras in their faces. The NY Times reporter asked me to email him the stories I had already done on it, but I said he could search for them himself on the Internet and he better not steal any of my lines. I have been trying to get this story out for weeks- as soon as I foud out I would be on an unarmored truck- and my paper published two stories on it. But it felt good to hand it off to the national press. I believe lives are at stake with so many soldiers going across the border riding with scrap metal as protection. It may be to late for the unit I am with, but hopefully not for those who come after.

The press officer in charge of my regiment, the 278th, came up to me afterwords and asked if my story would be positive. I replied that I would write the truth. Then I pointed at the horde of national media pointing cameras and mics at the 278th guys and said he had bigger problems on his hands than the Chattanooga Times Free Press. This is what this job is all about - people need to know. The solider who asked the question said he felt good b/c he took his complaints to the top. When he got back to his unit most of the guys patted him on the back but a few of the officers were upset b/c they thought it would make them look bad. From what I understand this is all over the news back home.

[|Bunghole|]

That's certainly no surprise there....do you understand how big your balls have to be to be a peon and ask your uber-superior in terms of rank these types of hard questions?

Coached or not, the reaction of the troops present spoke volumes....

We needed more preparedness for this war, but we somewhat rushed into it.

Personal safety for our soldiers should be a No 1 concern...and it wasn't.

These armor-plated HMVV's should have been in our arsenal long ago.

No soldier should have to complain about personal body armor, either.

This type of equipment should have been foreseen and acquisitioned by the Pentagon long before the Iraq war, since the military has been for YEARS talking about the "new threats" of urban combat and the need for faster response, lighter, more city-capable vehicles (like the Striker...if you haven't seen a pic of one you should check it out...) and a "lighter, lightning-strike" capability that would catapult our military into the 21st century.

BUT, the military is essentially a branch of the govt, and change is EXCRUCIATINGLY slow...the old Army phrase, "Hurry Up And Wait" comes to mind...

We should have prepared better.

Now we have "The military we have"

Instead of "the military we wished or hoped we had"...according to Rummy.

With all the bluster about technology and all, the Army we "should have had" is the Army we have now, minus the armament (vehicular and personal) that they "Should Have HAd" from the beginning.

My govt never ceases to amaze me....

[Guest bengalrick]

for those that think that rumsfield and this administration has done a "monumental mistake" or think that this is the next vietnam, check the casualties vs other wars...

that map is a little dated so i updated for the afghan and iraq wars... i got the numbers from this site...

revolutionary war: 554/year (4435/8 years)

war of 1812: 753/year (2260/3 years)

mexican war: 6641/year (13283/2 years)

civil war: 124583/year (498332/4 years)

spanish/american war: 2446 for that 1 year

wwI: 116516 for a year and a half or so

wwII: 101350/year (405399/4 years)

korean war: 12191/year (36574/3 years)

vietnam war: 6467/year (58200/9 years)

gulf war 1: 382 for that year

afghan war: 146 in the two years so far: 73/year so far

iraq war: 1230 in the year in a half: 820/year so far

as you can see, only the revolutionary war (surprise, surprise), war of 1812, gulf war 1, and afghan wars are less casualties per year... there is no comparison to any other war...

forbes.com

also heres something to ponder... due to medicine and policies in place now, we have the best rate of being injured and living (10% of injured solders die)...

The wide majority of injuries and deaths among coalition forces in Iraq -- excluding Iraqis -- have been among Americans. According to the U.S. Department of Defense, 10,369 military troops have been killed or injured in action in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001; the death rate is 10 percent, or 1,004 people.

Death rates were much higher in previous military conflicts, from the Revolutionary War -- where 42 percent of 10,623 wounded soldiers died -- to the Vietnam and Korean wars, where the death rate was 24 percent

On one hand, highly mobile mini-hospitals are boosting the military's ability to scoop up the injured and give them lifesaving treatment, said Dr. Atul Gawande, a surgeon and staff writer for the New Yorker magazine. Bulletproof vests are also helping, and injured soldiers face a much lower risk of death than in any previous major American armed conflict.

to say this war is a catastropic mistake is a joke... will we win?? noone knows yet, but our military is doing one hell of a job over there and if you give rumsfield and bush hell for this stuff, you have to give credit, where credit is due... this is a historic fight and if we are victorious, george w bush will be more loved more than ronald reagan was (after his presidency of course)... just give them some credit for when they do good things, as well as giving them hell when these things (armor problems) come up...

this was a great thing that it happened, b/c it will speed up our armored tanks... bush said he personally has asked rummie those kind of questions, and was glad it came out (it was said this morning, i believe)...

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

This is why I don't like Bush, he doesn't have a clue.

[url="http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/36924.htm"]Click Here[/url]


Even Republicans say Rumsfeld needs to go, Bush should wake up and try to salvage whats left of his good name before the shit really hits the fan.

[url="http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MXQ5MTU3BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAMwBHRtcGwDaW5kZXgtaWU-/s/224408"]Click Here[/url]

Rumsfeld is directly responsible because he is in charge, and the memos show that he knew of the abuses and he condone it. Imo, that is as bad as commiting the acts himself. Rummie's got alot of explaining to do.

[Jamie_B]

You know I’ve thought about this for a bit, and I want to know if anyone has any other ideas in reference to this abuse?

While I don’t like it I wonder if there is a choice really?

We complain that we didn’t have the information needed for 9/11 and while I agree that part of that is due to the ineptitude of the FBI and CIA not sharing info. Some of it has to be looked at as what, where, and how we get our information. If the informants that we get this information from are knowledgeable and TRUSTABLE without being forced into it physically how do they become trustable? Paying them off?....Probably some of that, but then when that happens and they become the Bin Ladens in the future? People will complain that we created them. So what about showing them the alternative to what they have now so that they want to work with us? Yeah possible but it would take years of convincing and during war we don’t have that luxury. So torture...while it makes us all squirm at the idea and angry at our country because we should be taking the higher road, it does produce results and it does get us the info we need, if prisoners are scared of what may happen. Fear produces results, if they aren’t afraid of what may happen to them if they don’t work with us, why would they work with us?

I’m just curious if anyone has a real workable during wartime alternative?

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Dec 21 2004, 05:36 PM']You know I’ve thought about this for a bit, and I want to know if anyone has any other ideas in reference to this abuse?

While I don’t like it I wonder if there is a choice really?

We complain that we didn’t have the information needed for 9/11 and while I agree that part of that is due to the ineptitude of the FBI and CIA not sharing info. Some of it has to be looked at as what, where, and how we get our information. If the informants that we get this information from are knowledgeable and TRUSTABLE without being forced into it physically how do they become trustable? Paying them off?....Probably some of that, but then when that happens and they become the Bin Ladens in the future? People will complain that we created them. So what about showing them the alternative to what they have now so that they want to work with us? Yeah possible but it would take years of convincing and during war we don’t have that luxury. So torture...while it makes us all squirm at the idea and angry at our country because we should be taking the higher road, it does produce results and it does get us the info we need, if prisoners are scared of what may happen. Fear produces results, if they aren’t afraid of what may happen to them if they don’t work with us, why would they work with us?

I’m just curious if anyone has a real workable during wartime alternative?
[right][post="28812"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Hey Donald Jr.,

Geneva Convention + Basic Respect for Human Life = No torture

We had all the info we needed pre-9/11, it's just that no one acted on the info we had.

You can't be serious trying to pull a Rumsfeld and condone that b.s. I thought we were going into Iraq to liberate them from a cruel dictator who turtored his people, how did we turn into that cruel dictator?? This a far cry from the picture the White House tries to push on the public, more and more soliders are dying everyday. The longer we are in Iraq the higher the death tolls will rise.

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

[url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20041221/ts_nm/iraq_bush_dc"]Click Here[/url]

If that is the case then why are prisoners of war being tortured and innocent lives being taken without thought? I feel for the families of the soliders, they deserved better.

[Jamie_B]

Smoov did you read at all what I was saying? I said TIME OF WAR alternative.... the Geneva Convention means little when a bullet is flying at you or when your enemy is cutting your heads off so they can drive your country out ie: Spain. Basic respect for human life means nothing when your at war and your enemy doest care about the Geneva Convention, what I don’t think your grasping there Junior is that in TIME OF WAR its kill or be killed, its what you have do to win period.

I said I don’t like it, but what I asked for was an workable alternative, one that you did not provide I noticed.

Call me what you like but provide me a real alternative. And I don’t like Rummy either I think he is a arrogant jackass who doesn’t hold the respect of his troops but I wasn’t talking about Rumsfield here.

As far as us having the information already, I SAID part of the problem was the FBI and CIA and their ineptitude. But I was also talking about HOW we gather that information, tell me something Brainiac ….do you know how the info is gathered? It’s done in multiple ways…. You can use technology, which does some of the work and you can get a lot of things that way. Its done with good old fashion spying (Which by the way you Dems complained about when we were doing that to China spewing out your moronic human right crap then too, but if we didn’t spy on people we wouldn’t have info on the at all.) Its done by buying off informants like we used to capture Sadam, (however how do you think these people get their money to fund the terrorism?)

I asked for an alternative…..when you can provide one get back to me.

[Guest BengalLady]

Die thread, DIE!!!!

[Guest bengalrick]

smoov... they probably don't talk about this in any left-wing circles, but do you realize that we follow the geneva convention, in this case, by the kindness of our hearts... these fucking terrorists don't meet any of the requirements that allow them to benefit from the [url="http://www.mobar.org/journal/2002/novdec/hook.htm"]geneva convention[/url]



[quote]Hague IV indicates that the laws of war apply not only to armies, but to persons or corps fulfilling four conditions: (1) forces that are "commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates," (2) possession of a "fixed . . . emblem recognizable at a distance," (3) carrying of arms openly, and (4) conducting its "operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."16 If the four conditions are met, the armed force qualifies as a belligerent. [b]Geneva III contemplates that forces must qualify for belligerent status, thus meeting the four conditions, before its members are eligible for prisoner of war status.17[/b] The qualifications for belligerents under Hague IV are almost identical to Geneva III's requirements for prisoner of war status.[/quote]

they meet none of these...

to say that our soldiers are right to be torturing these guys is stupid on my part, but to qualify for the geneva convention, the enemy also must comply... do you think the red cross had communication w/ the terrorists before they cut our prisoners (mostly civilian and workers) heads off... fuck the terrorists...

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

Looks like Rummy knew he was doing a horrible job as well.

[quote]" Rumsfeld disclosed he had offered Bush his resignation twice during the height of the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal."[/quote]

This is taken from today's WSJ.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Feb 4 2005, 02:31 PM']Looks like Rummy knew he was doing a horrible job as well.

[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB110750478263046014,00.html?mod=home_whats_news_us"]Click Here[/url]
[right][post="42995"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

and bush made him to stay, to take the shit... noone says that abu graib(sp?) was justified, but rummie had nothing to do w/ that...

btw, i don't see rummie being the sec of defense much longer... after the successful elections, he will be out the door sooner, rather than later imo...

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Feb 4 2005, 02:35 PM']and bush made him to stay, to take the shit... [b]noone says that abu graib(sp?) was justified, but rummie had nothing to do w/ that... [/b]

btw, i don't see rummie being the sec of defense much longer... after the successful elections, he will be out the door sooner, rather than later imo...
[right][post="42998"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Like Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast my friend". It seems as if the ACLU and other human rights organization think that Rummy was the evil mind behind the scence who not only knew of the turtore, but he signed off on it. He's being sued by the ACLU and others on behalf of 8 detainees who are also seeking monetary rewards.

This is just another embaressing moment for this adminstration. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img]

[url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&e=3&u=/nm/20050301/us_nm/iraq_abuse_rumsfeld_dc"]Click Here.....[/url]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Mar 1 2005, 03:51 PM']Like Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast my friend".  It seems as if the ACLU and other human rights organization think that Rummy was the evil mind behind the scence who not only knew of the turtore, but he signed off on it.  He's being sued by the ACLU and others on behalf of 8 detainees who are also seeking monetary rewards. 

This is just another embaressing moment for this adminstration. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img]

[url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&e=3&u=/nm/20050301/us_nm/iraq_abuse_rumsfeld_dc"]Click Here.....[/url]
[right][post="53708"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


The ACLU???... They are one of the most backwords thinking org's out there. Im all for civil liberties but the people that run that org and many of their members should be in straight jackets.

[|Bunghole|]

You guys still rattling sabres over Rummy?
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[fancywhodey]

mmmmm rum