Guest oldschooler Posted October 14, 2006 Report Share Posted October 14, 2006 [quote][size=5][b]To trade or not to trade -- Dunn, that is [/b][/size] Column by The Post's Lonnie Wheeler Adam Dunn arrived in Cincinnati on a meteor. At the age of 21, he had started the 2001 season in Chattanooga and burned a hole in the Southern League, shot over to Louisville and rocked the International League - between the two, he batted .334, with cosmic power - and was still smoking when he hit the Reds in late summer. He had 19 home runs in the time it takes most guys to find the restroom. As unimportant games drone on in August and September, the wretches in the press box tend to lose themselves in their notes and slow-moving sentences; but I distinctly remember the disturbance occasioned by the big rookie coming to the plate that year. I remember remarking to the young Reds official in the next seat that Dunn was a guy who made you stop what you were doing and pay close attention. It was a matter of expectation. There was a sense that, if you missed Dunn at bat, you might miss something worth seeing. Five years later, it had become hard to watch him hit. If was difficult enough for the fed-up fans who longed merely for a ball in play, but downright painful for those of us who genuinely like and enjoy the funniest, most self-effacing fellow in the Cincinnati clubhouse. As the Reds whiffed ingloriously at their postseason opportunity, Dunn, as usual, was the chief whiffer. Most of us understand about strikeouts. They're the thorns that come with those beautifully blooming home runs that sprout from the bats of heavy swingers like the Reds' 275-pound left fielder. It's just that, well, it's easier to be philosophical about that sort of thing when the ballclub is succeeding and the runners are finding some other way home. In Cincinnati, though, the Dunn years have coincided precisely with the six consecutive losing seasons. That said, you can't lay the blame at his locker anymore than you can kick Ernie Banks out of the Hall of Fame. There's no getting around the fact that, during his time here, the tall Texan has been the Reds' most productive hitter. By far. And yet, it's not working; certainly not at a worth of $10.5 million, which is what Dunn stands to make next year. That's the riddle that Wayne Krivsky is trying to make sense of these days. Is this a problem you trade your way out of? Can it be solved by firing the batting coach? When Chris Chambliss was hired prior to the 2004 season, his most pressing task was to straighten out No. 44, who, in his third year in the big leagues, had regressed to the point of a .215 batting average. The two of them hit it off immediately. The next season was Dunn's best. From there, though, his numbers began to decline again - minimally at first, but this year conspicuously and problematically. His average dipped to .234; and when, by virtue of September's swoon, he failed to reach 100 RBIs, it left the Reds without a full-blown run-producer. More troubling is the trend this represents for Cincinnati's franchise slugger; and in turn, for Cincinnati's franchise. At 26, with half a dozen seasons behind him, Dunn should now be arriving at a place of baseball maturity. It's perhaps unfair to compare him to Albert Pujols, but in the beginning they were not dissimilar. The same age, both spent 2000 in the Midwest League (Class A) and arrived in the majors the next year with auspicious results. But while Pujols, driving the ball to all fields and carrying his team to titles, has become indisputably the best hitter in the National League, Dunn continues to lead it only in strikeouts. Visiting scouts have been heard to remark that Dunn's batting skills have shown no benefit from his substantial experience. To wit, as an unstudied rookie he struck out (in plate appearances not counting walks) at a rate of .303. In 2002, his first full season, the number was .318. In year six just completed, the K-average was an astonishing .343. Whatever chords Chambliss had struck with him at the outset, they were losing their resonance by 2006. Does the coach's dismissal imply that the Reds are committed to Dunn, and prefer to entrust that commitment to a different instructor? Does it mean, in other words, that Krivsky has no intention of trading him? Probably not. Without delay, the Reds' general manager has demonstrated himself to be a swift and fearless swapper, and one, furthermore, not reluctant to part with power. He has already sent away Wily Mo Pena, Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns - Dunn's best friend in baseball - in the interest of pitching. The Reds still need pitching. The pertinent question is how much of it would Dunn fetch? His is truly a curious case. The numbers would tell you that, in spite of the strikeouts and plummeting average, the former quarterback will nevertheless walk his way on base. All the while, he's good for 40 homers a year, and scores as many runs as he drives in. He is also an unassailably durable player, an everyday guy who, in spite of apparent indifference, takes on more than his share of the responsibility. What, then, is his trade value? Is it the handsome sum of all the above, or what our eyes and exasperation tell us after six unfulfilling seasons? Is it a starting pitcher who can stand next to Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo? An end-game reliever who can allow Todd Coffey, Gary Majewski, Bill Bray and Matt Belisle to come along in more comfortable roles? An outfielder with a package more complete? A starting shortstop? If Krivsky does dare to deal Dunn - preferably to the American League - it will be with the full knowledge that a change of scenery might bring out the Pujols in him, or more likely the Ryan Howard. If he doesn't, it will be with the hope that a new batting coach can do that. Contact Lonnie Wheeler at lwheeler@cincypost.com.[/quote] [url="http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061014/SPT05/610140395/1035/SPT"]http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...140395/1035/SPT[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote][size=5][b]Krivsky offers Twins peek[/b][/size] [size=3][b]Reds insider[/b][/size] The firing of Chris Chambliss was the latest move in the "Minnesota-ization" of the Reds. If the Minnesota-ization continues we could see bigger moves. Let's explain the Minnesota-ization theory. Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky worked for the Twins for 11 years before coming to the Reds. Minnesota GM Terry Ryan has had more influence on Krivsky than anyone in baseball. So it stands to reason that Krivsky is trying to rebuild the Reds in the Twins' mold - given the success of the franchise. The Reds were the antithesis of the Twins offensively under Chambliss. All you have to do is take a look at the final stats for this season to see that. The Twins led the American League in batting average. They struck out fewer times than any team in the AL. They were 13th in home runs. And they were fourth in the AL in sacrifice flies. The Reds were second last in the National League in batting average. They struck out more than all but four teams in the NL. They were second in home runs. And they were 14th in the NL in sacrifice flies. The Twins won 95 games; the Reds 80. Krivsky said the Chambliss move wasn't a change in philosophy. But two days after Chambliss was fired the club hired Ronnie Ortegon to replace Leon Roberts as the minor-league hitting coordinator. Sounds like the club wants a different approach to hitting. "There are a lot of different ideas about hitting," Krivsky said. "I just want to win." But he admits an aversion to strikeouts. "I don't like strikeouts," he said. "I'd give up home runs for (fewer) strikeouts." It should be noted that Chambliss didn't get fired because he and Krivsky and Jerry Narron clashed on philosophy. Chambliss got fired because the Reds didn't hit after Aug. 24. They were first in the NL in slugging percentage and on-base percentage at that point. They ended up sixth in slugging percentage and seventh in on-base percentage. "That's hard to do after 134 games - to fall off like that," Krivsky said. Some of that had to do with the trade that sent Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to Washington. Some of that had to do with injuries to Ken Griffey Jr. and Ryan Freel. But Chambliss took the fall. Narron talked about the lack of adjustments hitters made late in the season. Chambliss had a lot of success as the Reds hitting coach before the team went into the mega-slump in late August. The Reds led the NL in runs scored in 2005. They did that despite having five hitters strike out more than 100 times. Chambliss was always concerned about the strikeouts. But he saw them as a byproduct of the kind of hitters the Reds had. "Strikeouts come with power," he would say. Krivsky is willing to sacrifice power for contact. Again, look at the Twins. When Justin Morneau hit 34 home runs this year he was first Twin to exceed 30 since 1987. The Reds had players go over 30 eight times in that period. Adam Dunn, the ultimate strikeout-power guy, has hit at least 40 the last three seasons. Krivsky traded away three of the five hitters who struck out 100 times in 2005 - Wily Mo Peña, Kearns and Lopez. Dunn certainly could be next to go. Remember the "I'll give up some home runs for less strikeouts" quote. Krivsky also said this: "It's about scoring runs and preventing runs. The defense has to get better." That's more of the Minnesota-ization of the Reds. The Twins finished third in the AL in defense. The Reds finished second last in the NL. Cutting down on strikeouts and putting more emphasis on the defense would not seem to bode well for Dunn's long-term future with the Reds. But whoever replaces Chambliss is not going to turn Dunn into Joe Mauer. And no one's going to turn him into a Gold Glove outfielder, or Silver or Bronze for that matter. So if the Minnesota-ization continues, we could see Dunn playing elsewhere in 2007. E-mail jfay@enquirer.com[/quote] [url="http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061015/COL09/610150354/1071/SPT"]http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...150354/1071/SPT[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Adam Dunn and Edwin for A-Rod and Cash... It would make sense for both teams. Yankees get two bronx bombers, plus a young 3rd baseman and DH, for A-Rod (who all of NY hates) and eats some of his contract so the Reds take it. Then, we move A-Rod to third, Phillips to short, Aurilia or Watson or Wilson at 2nd, and then Hatteberg or Votto at 1st. This cuts down half of our errors in fielding and strikeouts... I can dream right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='363609' date='Oct 15 2006, 10:35 AM']Adam Dunn and Edwin for A-Rod and Cash... It would make sense for both teams. Yankees get two bronx bombers, plus a young 3rd baseman and DH, for A-Rod (who all of NY hates) and eats some of his contract so the Reds take it. Then, we move A-Rod to third, Phillips to short, Aurilia or Watson or Wilson at 2nd, and then Hatteberg or Votto at 1st. This cuts down half of our errors in fielding and strikeouts... I can dream right?[/quote] i wouldnt do that. Edwin was great for us this year. His defense got better each week and he and aurilia were our only clutch bats. Arod is a SS, not a 3B. Arod can still be a gold glove SS. We wont be getting Arod, but if we had a chance i would not do this deal. I want Edwin and Phillips here because those are 2 real nice bats for us and Edwin came thru in a lot of clutch situations and he is very young with much more room to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='363628' date='Oct 15 2006, 11:12 AM']i wouldnt do that. Edwin was great for us this year. His defense got better each week and he and aurilia were our only clutch bats. Arod is a SS, not a 3B. Arod can still be a gold glove SS. We wont be getting Arod, but if we had a chance i would not do this deal. I want Edwin and Phillips here because those are 2 real nice bats for us and Edwin came thru in a lot of clutch situations and he is very young with much more room to grow.[/quote] stop it. Do you realize if we could do this to get the best player in the game?! Think of A-ROD in the great american sand box. IT WOULD BE HOMERUN CITY And thats fine if we put A-Rod at short. We could bring in a 3rd basemen or bring someone up, but A-ROD would be a must in my mind if this trade was available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='363670' date='Oct 15 2006, 11:53 AM']stop it. Do you realize if we could do this to get the best player in the game?! Think of A-ROD in the great american sand box. IT WOULD BE HOMERUN CITY And thats fine if we put A-Rod at short. We could bring in a 3rd basemen or bring someone up, but A-ROD would be a must in my mind if this trade was available.[/quote] i am a HUGE arod fan. i have more arod stuff than any other baseball player ever. I even have a game used bat autographed by him. BUT you know, if arod were piloting that plane instead of lidle, that plane never would have hit anything...arod cant hit anything in october i was told this by a yankees fan, i did not come up with this myself. Its true that ARod cant hit in october or at the end of games. I like arod and would love him, as long as we dont trade Bailey, Harang, Phillips, Edwin ill trade whatever for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='363711' date='Oct 15 2006, 12:30 PM']i am a HUGE arod fan. i have more arod stuff than any other baseball player ever. I even have a game used bat autographed by him. BUT you know, if arod were piloting that plane instead of lidle, that plane never would have hit anything...arod cant hit anything in october i was told this by a yankees fan, i did not come up with this myself. Its true that ARod cant hit in october or at the end of games. I like arod and would love him, as long as we dont trade Bailey, Harang, Phillips, Edwin ill trade whatever for him.[/quote] ehh not a very funny joke... i would take AROD in a heartbeat... i dont care what he did for the yankees in october... no one on that team did shit and I would take most likely every single one of thier 25 man roster on the Reds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='363761' date='Oct 15 2006, 01:06 PM']ehh not a very funny joke... i would take AROD in a heartbeat... i dont care what he did for the yankees in october... no one on that team did shit and I would take most likely every single one of thier 25 man roster on the Reds.[/quote] i agree, not a funny joke. just showing how heartless yanks fans are, i hate em. I love Arod and i would take him, but id rather have Edwin. He is much better per dollar spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinnDaMan7 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 If the Yanks are going to get rid of Arod they are going to want top end pitching. The only way we get him is if we give up Bailey, Edwin, and Dunn. Not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 First of all I dont care if A-Rod cant hit in October, because we havent got to October since 95, so even if Arod could just get us there I would take it. But second of all Arod would, with no doubt in my mind, Veto a trade to Cincy. What would he have to gain, besides like 800 homers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 [quote name='GinnDaMan7' post='365015' date='Oct 15 2006, 10:26 PM']If the Yanks are going to get rid of Arod they are going to want top end pitching. The only way we get him is if we give up Bailey, Edwin, and Dunn. Not gonna happen.[/quote] thats not what they would expect lol. yanks arent morons, they woudlnt ever ask that much for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 We don't need A-Rod unless he can pitch. Besides if we did get him somehow, it will probably be like the Griffey trade all over again. Then we can have two future HOFs that didn't do shit with the Reds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 [quote name='Hooky' post='365184' date='Oct 16 2006, 08:33 AM']We don't need A-Rod unless he can pitch. Besides if we did get him somehow, it will probably be like the Griffey trade all over again. Then we can have two future HOFs that didn't do shit with the Reds.[/quote] Agree, I wouldn't mind Miguel Cabrera, Florida Marlins/3b. He would tear up GABP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 [quote name='Lawman' post='365336' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:15 PM']Agree, I wouldn't mind Miguel Cabrera, Florida Marlins/3b. He would tear up GABP.[/quote] Miguel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 We have zero prospects to entise a team to trade one of their best players. Since Bailey is untouchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='365757' date='Oct 16 2006, 09:32 PM']We have zero prospects to entise a team to trade one of their best players. Since Bailey is untouchable.[/quote] we have a lot more than 0, but probably no big namers to pull off a star deal. We have some very quality guys that could bring in solid players in a trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDawgBengal Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote]Apparently, Adam Dunn is salivating at the idea of playing for his hometown Astros. And yes, the Reds are throwing around the idea of trading him for pitching. So it's something that I'm sure both teams will look into this winter. -- MLB.com[/quote] Got this of Si.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='365757' date='Oct 16 2006, 09:32 PM']We have zero prospects to entise a team to trade one of their best players. Since Bailey is untouchable.[/quote][url="http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117"]http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117[/url] and weve got more than just that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='371595' date='Oct 24 2006, 08:26 PM'][url="http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117"]http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117[/url] and weve got more than just that[/quote] sorry sire, i guess i was assuming votto was untouchable along with bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='371595' date='Oct 24 2006, 08:26 PM'][url="http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117"]http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52117[/url] and weve got more than just that[/quote] and a lot of solid arms, but most of the talent is Double A and lower, not a lot of Triple A talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='371608' date='Oct 24 2006, 08:44 PM']and a lot of solid arms, but most of the talent is Double A and lower, not a lot of Triple A talent.[/quote] sure but aaa is more like mlb junior, whereas aa ball tends to produce better players... i really dont know how to explain what im trying to say here... ramble ramble ramble im dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A-Men-HouseofPain Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='371616' date='Oct 24 2006, 08:51 PM']sure but aaa is more like mlb junior, whereas aa ball tends to produce better players... i really dont know how to explain what im trying to say here... ramble ramble ramble im dumb[/quote] i understand. AAA has a lot of guys who are just not able to play in the majors, they are just a tad off. The Double A players are usually the big prospects who take a quick step in or completely skip AAA. That is why u have the saying, if u can play in Double A, you can play in the Majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Give me Oswalt and I will be more than willing to give up Dunn...Could you imagine a 1-2-3 punch of Harang, Oswalt, and Arroyo. Add 2 of either EZ/Bailey/Milton/Lohse and thats a solid rotation in my opinion, maybe the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='372049' date='Oct 25 2006, 04:42 PM']Give me Oswalt and I will be more than willing to give up Dunn...Could you imagine a 1-2-3 punch of Harang, Oswalt, and Arroyo. Add 2 of either EZ/Bailey/Milton/Lohse and thats a solid rotation in my opinion,[s] maybe the best.[/s][/quote] [s]crazy talk[/s] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Harang and Arroyo were one of the top 1-2 punches, at oswalt and they have the best 1-2-3 punch in the majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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