SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE THE CASE

[Abu-Zayd]

I HAVE A CHALLENGE:

Someone who is knowledgeable and has the mental capability to study both sides, please give me the evidence that "Muslim suicide bombers hijacked planes and attacked the world trade center on September 11, 2001" Anyone?? With EVERYONE supposedly supporting this idea, there must be piles of evidence.

MAKE THE CASE.

[Guest Coy Bacon]

I'm interested in this too.

I'm interested in this too.

[Guest fredtoast]

Just read the 9-11 Commission Report. You can get it on Amazon for about 7 bucks. Literally thousands of identified sources of information. It identifies the hijackkers, gives their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where their funding came from, etc.. I'm not saying that it is 100% complete, but if you are going to claim that they DIDN'T do it then this will give you all the facts that you will have to overcome.

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='288983' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:06 PM']Just read the 9-11 Commission Report. You can get it on Amazon for about 7 bucks. Literally thousands of identified sources of information. It identifies the hijackkers, gives their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where their funding came from, etc.. I'm not saying that it is 100% complete, but if you are going to claim that they DIDN'T do it then this will give you all the facts that you will have to overcome.[/quote]


Whoa! Where's the evidence that the people named were even on the planes - not the assertions, not the allegations - the evidence? So they got some names of people that were allegedly trained and funded. They obviously had a list ready since one minute they claim that they didn't know what was coming and a day or two later they had this list of people, some of whom reportedly turned up alive in other countries.

I'm only so interested in the 9-11 Commission Report, since the commission was packed with people with conflicts of interst. Like the rest of the official story it's long on assertions and allegations and short on evidence - but of course that would be the case - there was no real investigation and critical evidence was spirited away and sold for scrap before it could be examined. If you read it, you must remember what EVIDENCE you found compelling - evidence that actually placed the alleged culprits at the scene of the crime, etc. Which of these facts do YOU remember that makes you so sure that the official story is right?

[Guest bengalrick]

[url="http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf"]9/11 commission[/url]

[i]Boston:American 11 and United 175. Atta and Omari boarded a 6:00 A.M. flight from Portland to Boston’s Logan International Airport.1[/i]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/AttasFLDriversLic.jpg[/img]
[i]
On December 21st, both Atta and Marwan were granted their pilot licenses. On the 26th or 27th, Atta and Marwan abandoned a Piper Cherokee that had stalled on the runway of Miami International Airport. On the 29th, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-Locka Airport and practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator.[/i]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Atta_in_airport.jpg[/img]

[i]At Logan Airport, the pair boarded American Airlines Flight 11, where Atta was checked in under the abbreviation "Moham Atta", and was seated in 8D. At 6:45 a.m., while at the Boston airport, Mohamed Atta took a call from Marwan al-Shehhi, another hijacker. This call was apparently to confirm the attacks were ready to begin.[/i]
[i]
At 7:59 a.m., the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers. The plane's transponder was turned off at 8:28.[19] At 8:24:38, a voice believed to be Atta's was heard by air traffic controllers, saying: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you will be OK. We are returning to the airport. Nobody move, everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet..."[/i]

[i]Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed, his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. When later found by U.S. authorities, they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and a four-page document in Arabic, copies of which were also found with the terrorists of the other three planes. It contains a list of instructions, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions," "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short," "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter."[/i]



i am focusing on mohammed atta first... to prove every single one of the 19 will take a long time, and will also be very hard considering the classified information....

[i]His German friends describe him as an intelligent man with religious beliefs who grew angry over the Western policy toward the Middle East, including the Oslo Accords and the Gulf War. MSNBC in its special "The Making of the Death Pilots" interviewed German friend Ralph Bodenstein who traveled, worked and talked a lot with Mohamed Atta. Bodenstein said, "He was most imbued [sic] actually about Israeli politics in the region and about U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region. And he was to a degree personally suffering from that."[/i]
[i]
The 9/11 Commission Report states that "In his interactions with other students [in Germany], Atta voiced virulently anti-Semitic and anti-American opinions, ranging from condemnations of what he described as a global Jewish movement centered in New York City that supposedly controlled the financial world and the media, to polemics against governments of the Arab world. To him, Saddam Hussein was an American stooge set up to give Washington an excuse to intervene in the Middle East,"[/i]
[i]
In a visit home to Egypt in 1998, his former friends noticed that he had become much more of a religious fundamentalist than he had been before.[/i]
[i]
On November 1, 1998, Atta moved into an apartment in Germany with the alleged terrorists Said Bahaji and Ramzi Binalshibh. The Hamburg cell was born at this apartment. [4] They met three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American feelings and to plot possible attacks. Many al-Qaeda members lived in this apartment at various times, including hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi, Zakariya Essabar, hijacker Waleed al-Shehri, and others. In all, 29 men listed the apartment as their home address while Atta's name was on the lease. The 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed visited the apartment repeatedly.[/i]
[i]
In late 1999, Atta, al-Shehhi, Jarrah, Bahaji, and Binalshibh decided to travel to Chechnya to fight against the Russians, but were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi at the last minute to change their plans. They instead traveled to Afghanistan to meet with Osama bin Laden and train for terrorist attacks. The information above is related to intense surveillance of the Marienstrasse apartment and telephone surveillance by the CIA and the German Verfassungsschutz.[/i]
[i]
German investigators said that they had evidence that Mohammed Atta trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan from late 1999 to early 2000. The timing of the Afghanistan training was outlined August 23, 2002 by a senior investigator. The investigator, Klaus Ulrich Kersten, director of Germany's federal anticrime agency, the Bundeskriminalamt, provided the first official confirmation that Atta and two other pilots had been in Afghanistan and the first dates of the training. Mr. Kersten said in an interview at the agency's headquarters in Wiesbaden, Germany, that Mr. Atta was in Afghanistan from late 1999 until early 2000.[/i]
[i]
Atta and the other hijackers began to work on appearing more mainstream, shaving their beards and avoiding known radicals. Starting in 2000, the CIA placed Atta under surveillance in Germany. He was trailed by CIA agents, and was observed buying large quantities of chemicals.[/i]
[i]
In a video released by the U.S. government, Osama bin Laden points to Atta as the leader of the attacks (see videos of bin Laden). His father, Mohamed el-Amir Atta, a retired lawyer in Egypt, characterized this accusation in an interview as ridiculous, calling his son gentle and shy. He said that he suspects Mossad had a hand in framing his son, whom he said was a quiet boy uninvolved in politics, shy and devoted to studying architecture. He also showed media an image of his son, claiming that while there were similarities with the FBI released photos, they were clearly different people.[21] [22] The elder Mr. Atta also claims to have spoken with Mohamed by phone two days after the air crashes of the 11th, and continued to hold in interviews with the German news magazine Bild am Sonntag in late 2002 that his son was alive, in hiding. [23], [24]

In July 2005 Atta's father (interviewed by CNN) said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son. [25][/i]




this is going to take forever [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/28.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/28.gif[/img]

getting close to bed.... this is a work in progress, i guess... but unless all of those sources are lying, then i'm pretty sure he was on the plane, and was in charge of wrecking the plane into the world trade center...

[TheChosenOne]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='288989' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:28 PM'][i]condemnations of what he described as a global Jewish movement centered in New York City that supposedly controlled the financial world and the media[/i][/quote]

...

[Abu-Zayd]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='288983' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:06 PM']Just read the 9-11 Commission Report. You can get it on Amazon for about 7 bucks. Literally thousands of identified sources of information. It [b]identifies the hijackkers, gives their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where their funding came from, etc.. [/b] I'm not saying that it is 100% complete, but if you are going to claim that they DIDN'T do it then this will give you [b]all the facts[/b] that you will have to overcome.[/quote]

Hey Fred--First--If your cousin identified a different set of 'hijackers', gave their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where they acquired their funding, etc., does that mean that is what happened? What gives me evidence of the crime being commintted by these particular people that your cousin names? Bout as much evidence that your statement, or the information behind your statement, gave.

That leads to a few questions, more important and relevant for YOURSELF, Fred:
You're a believer in the "al qaeda, arab hijackers, war on terror, we're the good guys, the brown skinned towel heads are the bad guys" dialectic, tell me something--What evidence convinced YOU of what happened? Was there any evidence presented, or was it a simple, "this is what happened...and we're the government, so you must believe what we say happened."? If there was some evidence presented that was so convincing as to ... convince YOU, you MUST remember! did you not remember it? How then do you remember what happened? or did you simply follow what everyone else generally thought, according to the latest poll... Do you really KNOW what happened? Do you think what you currently think is the only way it could be? WAKE UP--

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='288997' date='Jun 30 2006, 12:00 AM']Hey Fred--First--If your cousin identified a different set of 'hijackers', gave their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where they acquired their funding, etc., does that mean that is what happened? What gives me evidence of the crime being commintted by these particular people that your cousin names? Bout as much evidence that your statement, or the information behind your statement, gave.

That leads to a few questions, more important and relevant for YOURSELF, Fred:
You're a believer in the "al qaeda, arab hijackers, war on terror, we're the good guys, the brown skinned towel heads are the bad guys" dialectic, tell me something--What evidence convinced YOU of what happened? Was there any evidence presented, or was it a simple, "this is what happened...and we're the government, so you must believe what we say happened."? If there was some evidence presented that was so convincing as to ... convince YOU, you MUST remember! did you not remember it? How then do you remember what happened? or did you simply follow what everyone else generally thought, according to the latest poll... Do you really KNOW what happened? Do you think what you currently think is the only way it could be? WAKE UP--[/quote]OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

what type of logic is this shit??????????

[Guest steggyD]

I think you've misread fred, Abu.

Also, I'd say the black box from Flight 93 is enough evidence. But of course, you all will just pull up conspiracy theories to argue it, so I won't even touch it.

[Abu-Zayd]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='288989' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:28 PM'][url="http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf"]9/11 commission[/url]

[i]Boston:American 11 and United 175. Atta and Omari boarded a 6:00 A.M. flight from Portland to Boston’s Logan International Airport.1[/i]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/AttasFLDriversLic.jpg[/img]
[i]
On December 21st, both Atta and Marwan were granted their pilot licenses. On the 26th or 27th, Atta and Marwan abandoned a Piper Cherokee that had stalled on the runway of Miami International Airport. On the 29th, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-Locka Airport and practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator.[/i]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Atta_in_airport.jpg[/img]

[i]At Logan Airport, the pair boarded American Airlines Flight 11, where Atta was checked in under the abbreviation "Moham Atta", and was seated in 8D. At 6:45 a.m., while at the Boston airport, Mohamed Atta took a call from Marwan al-Shehhi, another hijacker. This call was apparently to confirm the attacks were ready to begin.[/i]
[i]
At 7:59 a.m., the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers. The plane's transponder was turned off at 8:28.[19] At 8:24:38, a voice believed to be Atta's was heard by air traffic controllers, saying: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you will be OK. We are returning to the airport. Nobody move, everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet..."[/i]

[i]Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed, his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. When later found by U.S. authorities, they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and a four-page document in Arabic, copies of which were also found with the terrorists of the other three planes. It contains a list of instructions, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions," "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short," "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter."[/i]
i am focusing on mohammed atta first... to prove every single one of the 19 will take a long time, and will also be very hard considering the classified information....

[i]His German friends describe him as an intelligent man with religious beliefs who grew angry over the Western policy toward the Middle East, including the Oslo Accords and the Gulf War. MSNBC in its special "The Making of the Death Pilots" interviewed German friend Ralph Bodenstein who traveled, worked and talked a lot with Mohamed Atta. Bodenstein said, "He was most imbued [sic] actually about Israeli politics in the region and about U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region. And he was to a degree personally suffering from that."[/i]
[i]
The 9/11 Commission Report states that "In his interactions with other students [in Germany], Atta voiced virulently anti-Semitic and anti-American opinions, ranging from condemnations of what he described as a global Jewish movement centered in New York City that supposedly controlled the financial world and the media, to polemics against governments of the Arab world. To him, Saddam Hussein was an American stooge set up to give Washington an excuse to intervene in the Middle East,"[/i]
[i]
In a visit home to Egypt in 1998, his former friends noticed that he had become much more of a religious fundamentalist than he had been before.[/i]
[i]
On November 1, 1998, Atta moved into an apartment in Germany with the alleged terrorists Said Bahaji and Ramzi Binalshibh. The Hamburg cell was born at this apartment. [4] They met three or four times a week to discuss their anti-American feelings and to plot possible attacks. Many al-Qaeda members lived in this apartment at various times, including hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi, Zakariya Essabar, hijacker Waleed al-Shehri, and others. In all, 29 men listed the apartment as their home address while Atta's name was on the lease. The 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed visited the apartment repeatedly.[/i]
[i]
In late 1999, Atta, al-Shehhi, Jarrah, Bahaji, and Binalshibh decided to travel to Chechnya to fight against the Russians, but were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi at the last minute to change their plans. They instead traveled to Afghanistan to meet with Osama bin Laden and train for terrorist attacks. The information above is related to intense surveillance of the Marienstrasse apartment and telephone surveillance by the CIA and the German Verfassungsschutz.[/i]
[i]
German investigators said that they had evidence that Mohammed Atta trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan from late 1999 to early 2000. The timing of the Afghanistan training was outlined August 23, 2002 by a senior investigator. The investigator, Klaus Ulrich Kersten, director of Germany's federal anticrime agency, the Bundeskriminalamt, provided the first official confirmation that Atta and two other pilots had been in Afghanistan and the first dates of the training. Mr. Kersten said in an interview at the agency's headquarters in Wiesbaden, Germany, that Mr. Atta was in Afghanistan from late 1999 until early 2000.[/i]
[i]
Atta and the other hijackers began to work on appearing more mainstream, shaving their beards and avoiding known radicals. Starting in 2000, the CIA placed Atta under surveillance in Germany. He was trailed by CIA agents, and was observed buying large quantities of chemicals.[/i]
[i]
In a video released by the U.S. government, Osama bin Laden points to Atta as the leader of the attacks (see videos of bin Laden). His father, Mohamed el-Amir Atta, a retired lawyer in Egypt, characterized this accusation in an interview as ridiculous, calling his son gentle and shy. He said that he suspects Mossad had a hand in framing his son, whom he said was a quiet boy uninvolved in politics, shy and devoted to studying architecture. He also showed media an image of his son, claiming that while there were similarities with the FBI released photos, they were clearly different people.[21] [22] The elder Mr. Atta also claims to have spoken with Mohamed by phone two days after the air crashes of the 11th, and continued to hold in interviews with the German news magazine Bild am Sonntag in late 2002 that his son was alive, in hiding. [23], [24]

In July 2005 Atta's father (interviewed by CNN) said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son. [25][/i]
this is going to take forever [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/28.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/28.gif[/img]

getting close to bed.... this is a work in progress, i guess... but unless all of those sources are lying, then i'm pretty sure he was on the plane, and was in charge of wrecking the plane into the world trade center...[/quote]


Rick--I read your entire post...there are some things which make it seem as though atta was a very fundamentalist, hardcore Muslim, quite knowledgeable about world affairs, and strong minded. He went to fight in another country for something he believed in. You do understand that a religious man prays at least five times daily, and never even enters a house of drinking, or debauchery, much less drink alcohol...for it nullifies his prayers. THEN why is it that he was regular at a particular strip club, I believe in Florida? Maybe he had some weakness for wine, women, coke, having live in girlfriends, having numerous passports, speaking hebrew and never praying or reading qur'an or meeting anyone else but thugs, mobsters, and government officials. The girlfriend revealed that he never went to a mosque, never prayed with his brethren, read qur'an, or anything else muslim. SO perhaps, on the last night before his mission of ultimate importance, for he is going to meet his Lord, in honor...so he must have prayed all night? Nope...he and his girlfriend went out to the same strip club, he got toasted and jacked up on coke, was rude to everyone he ran into, and left a qur'an there???
What do these facts indicate, if we consider that he had his passport stolen while he was in Germany?

There is more to things than meet the initial glance. How does one explain the precending facts?

AZ

[|Bengal Migration|]

The funniest thing to me about the official story, is how fast the damn thing came out. I was in the DC area during the sniper ordeal, and I know you folks in OH had a similar situation in Columbus. Amazing that those killers required months and months or law enforcement investigations to finally determine who was behind them, but on 9/11 we had names and picutes of everyone involved within a number of hours.

So how did this work? Take a look at the manifest, see an arab-sounding name, find a picture of said person on a surveillance tape, and PRESTO- here are your perpetrators. Wha?

If our intel was so good on these guys to put the puzzle together in a matter of hours, then what the fuck were these guys doing on the streets at all? Seems like a conveniently open and shut case to me.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='289062' date='Jun 30 2006, 05:05 AM']The funniest thing to me about the official story, is how fast the damn thing came out. I was in the DC area during the sniper ordeal, and I know you folks in OH had a similar situation in Columbus. Amazing that those killers required months and months or law enforcement investigations to finally determine who was behind them, but on 9/11 we had names and picutes of everyone involved within a number of hours.

So how did this work? Take a look at the manifest, see an arab-sounding name, find a picture of said person on a surveillance tape, and PRESTO- here are your perpetrators. Wha?

If our intel was so good on these guys to put the puzzle together in a matter of hours, then what the fuck were these guys doing on the streets at all? Seems like a conveniently open and shut case to me.[/quote]
dude, thats quite possibly the worst case comparison ive ever seen

-one group consisted of highly covert and random attacks on civilians from a network of individuals with no leaders and a modified normal-looking car

-the other group was headed up by an widely known international terrorist and rich leader of a multinational terrorist organization whos members carried out a well planned specific attack on a previously targeted location using attackers who left a paper trail only an idiot could find that consisted of detailed records from the time they entered the country to the time of the attack and then nothing after

there is seriously abosolutely no comparison between the two outside of the classification of the crimes committed.

oh, and ill give you a hint... when you find several people on each downed flight with known connections to terrorists or to others with that connection, then listen to the black box, review the fact that these guys didnt even bother to try to hide the fact that they were in contact with each other and enrolled in flight courses prior to the planned attack... then you have a guy some of them have been known to have connections with say, "yea, i ordered the attack." well, it KINDA makes it pretty easy to figure out the guilty party.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='289064' date='Jun 30 2006, 10:34 AM']dude, thats quite possibly the worst case comparison ive ever seen

-one group consisted of highly covert and random attacks on civilians from a network of individuals with no leaders and a modified normal-looking car

-the other group was headed up by an widely known international terrorist and rich leader of a multinational terrorist organization whos members carried out a well planned specific attack on a previously targeted location using attackers who left a paper trail only an idiot could find that consisted of detailed records from the time they entered the country to the time of the attack and then nothing after

there is seriously abosolutely no comparison between the two outside of the classification of the crimes committed.

oh, and ill give you a hint... when you find several people on each downed flight with known connections to terrorists or to others with that connection, then listen to the black box, review the fact that these guys didnt even bother to try to hide the fact that they were in contact with each other and enrolled in flight courses prior to the planned attack... then you have a guy some of them have been known to have connections with say, "yea, i ordered the attack." well, it KINDA makes it pretty easy to figure out the guilty party.[/quote]

Hi 'Nati. Damn good to meet you.

Surely the nature of the crimes/criminals are completely different. No sweat. But wouldn't it take more than a few hours to know who, what, where , why, how and when? Perhaps just a bit more time? Okay, the terrorists would be easier to track because of the size of their operation, etc. But if they were so damn obvious to find, shouldn't we have stopped them before it started?

Either our intelligence community is complete shit, or someone had a story ready to tell. I won't tell you which to believe, I just think it's odd as hell.

Just like I think it's odd as hell to wait for hours to get planes in the air over DC. Or to send them from Norfolk instead of Andrews AFB 10 miles away.... but I digress...

[Hooky]

Will someone prove to me that the sky is blue? I want evidence not opinions, allegations, color chart comparisons. And while you're at it, prove to me that the Bengals lost Super Bowl XXIII. I want proof. Until then, I'll just keep believing that the Bengals won, no matter how stupid people think I am because of it.

[Hooky]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='289062' date='Jun 30 2006, 05:05 AM']The funniest thing to me about the official story, is how fast the damn thing came out. I was in the DC area during the sniper ordeal, and I know you folks in OH had a similar situation in Columbus. Amazing that those killers required months and months or law enforcement investigations to finally determine who was behind them, but on 9/11 we had names and picutes of everyone involved within a number of hours.

So how did this work? Take a look at the manifest, see an arab-sounding name, find a picture of said person on a surveillance tape, and PRESTO- here are your perpetrators. Wha?

If our intel was so good on these guys to put the puzzle together in a matter of hours, then what the fuck were these guys doing on the streets at all? Seems like a conveniently open and shut case to me.[/quote]

Because thanks to the liberals, you can't profile and assume that someone is going to do something terrible. You Oliver stone fuckers are hilarious. Why don't you come out and say it? Bush did it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='289062' date='Jun 30 2006, 05:05 AM']The funniest thing to me about the official story, is how fast the damn thing came out. I was in the DC area during the sniper ordeal, and I know you folks in OH had a similar situation in Columbus. Amazing that those killers required months and months or law enforcement investigations to finally determine who was behind them, but on 9/11 we had names and picutes of everyone involved within a number of hours.

So how did this work? Take a look at the manifest, see an arab-sounding name, find a picture of said person on a surveillance tape, and PRESTO- here are your perpetrators. Wha?

If our intel was so good on these guys to put the puzzle together in a matter of hours, then what the fuck were these guys doing on the streets at all? Seems like a conveniently open and shut case to me.[/quote]


What are you talking about the DC snipers were caught in a few weeks? (I live here.) And remember at 1st the sniper cases were ran by the local police where as 9/11 is directly ran by the FBI right away.


Abu Im not sure what your looking for in terms of factual evidence or eveidence about weather these guys were indeed Muslim.

If its the 1st, your not likely to get the entire picture because a number of things are still classified, thus any picture you may have now may not be an entire truth and may at best be half truths, at worst deceptive lies. At the moment and probabally for our lifetimes, the information is classified and its like looking at a puzzle with alot of missing pieces you can only make guesses at what the picture is and you may very well be wrong.

If its the 2nd, I wouldnt touch that question with a 10 foot pole. Its to me, like asking if Hitler was a Christian. Well yes, he proclaimed it, but his fruit certanly was rotten wasnt it?

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='289086' date='Jun 30 2006, 01:02 PM']What are you talking about the DC snipers were caught in a few weeks? (I live here.) And remember at 1st the sniper cases were ran by the local police where as 9/11 is directly ran by the FBI right away.
Abu Im not sure what your looking for in terms of factual evidence or eveidence about weather these guys were indeed Muslim.

If its the 1st, your not likely to get the entire picture because a number of things are still classified, thus any picture you may have now may not be an entire truth and may at best be half truths, at worst deceptive lies. At the moment and probabally for our lifetimes, the information is classified and its like looking at a puzzle with alot of missing pieces you can only make guesses at what the picture is and you may very well be wrong.

If its the 2nd, I wouldnt touch that question with a 10 foot pole. Its to me, like asking if Hitler was a Christian. Well yes, he proclaimed it, but his fruit certanly was rotten wasnt it?[/quote]

Hey Jamie. Where in VA are you? Used to live in Reston...

My point is simply that crimes are not generally solved ina matter of hours. Both sniper cases are exapmles of that. But somehow the entire 9-11 story seemed to be solved, complete with pictures, knowlege of flight trianing, background, etc, by the afternoon of 9-11. Just seems odd that a group so well organized that they could avoid detection for months while undergoing flight training, etc, could be so completely exposed so quickly after the fact.

Which leads me to believe that either their presence was so obvious that it should have been detected earlier (hence my comment of crappy intelligence), or that the entire story was put in place beforehand.

Again, no idea which is the truth here, just seems odd to me in retrospect is all. And as you mention, the gov't will keep this shit classified till hell freezes over anyway, so we'll likely never know for certain.

Wish I could've run into you in VA. We need a better Bengals presence there. Would've been nice to have someone to road trip to the 'shoe and PBS with too.

[Abu-Zayd]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='289086' date='Jun 30 2006, 08:02 AM']What are you talking about the DC snipers were caught in a few weeks? (I live here.) And remember at 1st the sniper cases were ran by the local police where as 9/11 is directly ran by the FBI right away.
Abu Im not sure what your looking for in terms of factual evidence or eveidence about weather these guys were indeed Muslim.

If its the 1st, your not likely to get the entire picture because a number of things are still classified, thus any picture you may have now may not be an entire truth and may at best be half truths, at worst deceptive lies. At the moment and probabally for our lifetimes, the information is classified and its like looking at a puzzle with alot of missing pieces you can only make guesses at what the picture is and you may very well be wrong.

If its the 2nd, I wouldnt touch that question with a 10 foot pole. Its to me, like asking if Hitler was a Christian. Well yes, he proclaimed it, but his fruit certanly was rotten wasnt it?[/quote]


All I ask for is some basic evidence. Their names on the manifest...you know...the list that lists the names of the people who were ticketed to be on the plane? Some evidence that the individuals who flew the planes had the capability to fly with such skill... how about the actual cockpit recorders from the black boxes that were SURELY recovered...we have statements from the individual who went with the agents to recover them...he says they found them, but the feds said they did not. The recordings would tell a lot. How about the video from the security point at the pentagon? how bout the security camera footage from the hotel? How bout debris from the plane that "crashed" in PA? Something besides, "CIA said this" or FBI believes that.

EVIDENCE. SOmething that would hold up in court...

And how do YOU answer the living 'hijackers'? They saw their picture and name on the list and complained, one filed suit, got an apology from the Justice Dept., prompting FBI director to admit most of the 'hijackers' used phony ID. So, if phony ID, then who was on the plane to hijack, if there were no Arabs who boarded the plane, according to the ticketed list of people on the plane. Man, I am brown skinned, I know, they don't let my people on planes without having tickets, sometimes two.

I am asking for evidence, friends.... I am stating a confidence in us all as intelligent thinking people...we deserve to see the evidence, if we are to believe all this and support OUR TAX dollars being spent on killing people who don't look like most of us, taking their resources, imposing a government that "likes us", etc.etc.

All this, in my and your name, is unacceptable to me unless THEY show me evidence of what took place, and we all say, OK, DO IT (as Ben Stiller would say). Until then, I will question their authority. They are human beings like you and me, not superior to you and me somehow. Where is your sense of self determination, if this is a demo- cracy ( people - rule)?? Why can I not simply get some evidence?? Why all the "what logic is this..." "you're psycho", "you this" and "you that"???

Just some hard evidence. The writing from the 911 commission is like the writing from the Warren Commission, and its just like this forum........ No one wants to address the key concerns that people like me have...

[Guest oldschooler]

I posted this in the thread where you originally asked this question...


How about you read the bin Laden not wanted by the FBI thread.
It`s basically all about what you`re asking for now.

I provided just as many, if not more "facts" than BJ did. The U.S. has shown evidence to World leaders (PM of Canada for instance) and the like. bin Laden declared war on the U.S. in 1996. He was behind other attacks against the U.S.
The 9/11 commision, which is a bi-partisan group, all said that bin Laden is responsible for 9/11... all of the above are facts.

Do you really think that any Nation would provide troops to go to Afghanistan if they weren`t sure they were going after the right people/persons ?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='289098' date='Jun 30 2006, 08:47 AM']Hey Jamie. Where in VA are you? Used to live in Reston...

My point is simply that crimes are not generally solved ina matter of hours. Both sniper cases are exapmles of that. But somehow the entire 9-11 story seemed to be solved, complete with pictures, knowlege of flight trianing, background, etc, by the afternoon of 9-11. Just seems odd that a group so well organized that they could avoid detection for months while undergoing flight training, etc, could be so completely exposed so quickly after the fact.

Which leads me to believe that either their presence was so obvious that it should have been detected earlier (hence my comment of crappy intelligence), or that the entire story was put in place beforehand.

Again, no idea which is the truth here, just seems odd to me in retrospect is all. And as you mention, the gov't will keep this shit classified till hell freezes over anyway, so we'll likely never know for certain.

Wish I could've run into you in VA. We need a better Bengals presence there. Would've been nice to have someone to road trip to the 'shoe and PBS with too.[/quote]


I live in Price William county, and yes a better bengals presence would be nice, but this is Redskins country so your not likely to find it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='289099' date='Jun 30 2006, 08:54 AM']All I ask for is some basic evidence. Their names on the manifest...you know...the list that lists the names of the people who were ticketed to be on the plane? Some evidence that the individuals who flew the planes had the capability to fly with such skill... how about the actual cockpit recorders from the black boxes that were SURELY recovered...we have statements from the individual who went with the agents to recover them...he says they found them, but the feds said they did not. The recordings would tell a lot. How about the video from the security point at the pentagon? how bout the security camera footage from the hotel? How bout debris from the plane that "crashed" in PA? Something besides, "CIA said this" or FBI believes that.

EVIDENCE. SOmething that would hold up in court...

And how do YOU answer the living 'hijackers'? They saw their picture and name on the list and complained, one filed suit, got an apology from the Justice Dept., prompting FBI director to admit most of the 'hijackers' used phony ID. So, if phony ID, then who was on the plane to hijack, if there were no Arabs who boarded the plane, according to the ticketed list of people on the plane. Man, I am brown skinned, I know, they don't let my people on planes without having tickets, sometimes two.

I am asking for evidence, friends.... I am stating a confidence in us all as intelligent thinking people...we deserve to see the evidence, if we are to believe all this and support OUR TAX dollars being spent on killing people who don't look like most of us, taking their resources, imposing a government that "likes us", etc.etc.

All this, in my and your name, is unacceptable to me unless THEY show me evidence of what took place, and we all say, OK, DO IT (as Ben Stiller would say). Until then, I will question their authority. They are human beings like you and me, not superior to you and me somehow. Where is your sense of self determination, if this is a demo- cracy ( people - rule)?? Why can I not simply get some evidence?? Why all the "what logic is this..." "you're psycho", "you this" and "you that"???

Just some hard evidence. The writing from the 911 commission is like the writing from the Warren Commission, and its just like this forum........ No one wants to address the key concerns that people like me have...[/quote]


Im going to have to get back to you on the flight manifests (assuming they are even de-classified). Also to note, I havent at all made attacks on your faith, nor have I called you Psycho, as I have my own and at times get irritated when it getts attacked so I respect your frustration.

As far as the concenrs of people I can only hope there is good reason that much of the information is still classified.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='289010' date='Jun 30 2006, 01:01 AM']Rick--I read your entire post...there are some things which make it seem as though atta was a very fundamentalist, hardcore Muslim, quite knowledgeable about world affairs, and strong minded. He went to fight in another country for something he believed in. You do understand that a religious man prays at least five times daily, and never even enters a house of drinking, or debauchery, much less drink alcohol...for it nullifies his prayers.[/quote]

yes, he seemed very committed to his religion... that is a great thing in alot of cases, but "faith", by definition, is a form of brainwashing... the same goes for my faith... so though his religious extremism doesn't alone prove anything, anyone that is religious can see the problems w/ being "too" committed to a faith... the same goes for my religion, and the people that want to kill homosexuals in the name of my God, and bomb abortion clinics in the name of Jesus...

[quote]THEN why is it that he was regular at a particular strip club, I believe in Florida? Maybe he had some weakness for wine, women, coke, having live in girlfriends, having numerous passports, speaking hebrew and never praying or reading qur'an or meeting anyone else but thugs, mobsters, and government officials. The girlfriend revealed that he never went to a mosque, never prayed with his brethren, read qur'an, or anything else muslim. SO perhaps, on the last night before his mission of ultimate importance, for he is going to meet his Lord, in honor...so he must have prayed all night? Nope...he and his girlfriend went out to the same strip club, he got toasted and jacked up on coke, was rude to everyone he ran into, and left a qur'an there???[/quote]

so, first of all... this is a great thread... this is a simple question for people like myself, to prove 9.11... to do that though, we all need to understand that if i quote rush limbaugh, the facts i have aren't necessarily true... same if you guys quote the democratic underground... in other words, both sides should pick their sources closely on this, and get the truth... i doubt that there is much of a chance to change some of your guys' minds, but that is true in anything... but i am willing to step back and take a look at the evidence presented and try my best to interpret it... i expect the same in return though...

the reason i said that, i looked up [url="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886"]this site[/url] while trying to find out where these supposed facts come from, and this quote jumped out at me: [i]Though his style can be annoyingly breezy, I highly recommend the book. [b]There's original research you won't find anywhere else but here and on his website[/b][/i]... go to [url="http://www.madcowprod.com/"]their[/url] website, and its pretty obvious that these guys are extremely biased in their research...

anyways, [url="http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/suspects/suspects-in-daytona-beach-strip-club-night-before.txt"]click here[/url] i did some research to find out about the strip club, in the first place...

[i]In Daytona Beach, Kap said he told FBI investigators the men in his bar spent $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks, paying with credit cards. Kap said he gave the FBI credit card receipts, photocopied driver's licenses, a business card left by one man and a copy of the Quran - the sacred book of Islam - that was left at the bar. [/i]

the only chance that these guys had a chance to blend in well, they had to get exposed to american culture... extreme muslims were being looked into harshly... being someone that can have a problem w/ beer and woman, i can understand how he could have acquired a taste for it, after being exposed to it for so long... it says in my earlier research, that he was extremely mad about the occupation in palestine, and our support of israel among other things, as reasons for his hatred... someone can easily go from extreme muslim, praying 5 times a day, to moderate muslim after being exposed to our culture, and still dispise this country enough to want to harm it...

[i]Hamburg investigators said Atta, 33, and Alshehhi, 23, had studied at the Technical University in Hamburg and were from the United Arab Emirates. Both men received pilot training at Huffman Aviation, a flight school in Venice, Fla., where FBI investigators are examining student records.

FBI investigators learned that Atta and Alshehhi also took two three-hour courses at SimCenter Inc. in Opa-locka, said Brian George, son of flight school owner Henry George.

"We were completely stunned and shocked," Brian George said Thursday. "My father said that if he didn't have a family to support he would stop teaching tomorrow. To think that someone would take what he taught them and turn it into a weapon" [/i]


[quote]What do these facts indicate, if we consider that he had his passport stolen while he was in Germany?

There is more to things than meet the initial glance. How does one explain the precending facts?

AZ[/quote]

he reported it stolen... this is not evidence for either side... he doesn't have any credibility in my book, so i can't say what happened w/ his passport in germany... there have been reports that it turned up 2 blocks from the WTC....

so i found [url="http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/09/binladen.tape/index.html"]this website[/url] also... it shows Abdulaziz Alomari, a supposed attacker in 9/11... that is a VERY interesting fact, and to me tells me that we very well could have the names of some of them wrong... there could be more, there could be less... but this same proof that blows up alomari's evidence, also blows up any evidence against you saying atta was not part of the plot.. here is what the tape says:

[i]"We will get you. We will humiliate you. We will never stop following you," said [b]Abdulaziz Alomari, one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 11, which flew into the north tower of the World Trade Center.[/b]

"God praise everybody who trained and helped me, namely the leader Sheikh Osama bin Laden. May God bless him. May God accept our deeds."

[b]In the bin Laden audiotape, he specifically names the four hijackers who U.S. authorities have said were the pilots of the four hijacked flights. Of the mastermind hijacker Mohammed Atta, who flew the first plane into the World Trade Center, bin Laden said, "He carried the pains of the nation. May God accept him as a martyr." [/b]

[b]He called Hani Hanjour, the terrorist who flew the plane into the Pentagon, "a great man."[/b]

[b]The two other men whom bin Laden named were Marwan Al-Shehhi, the pilot of United Airlines Flight 175, which slammed into the south tower of the World Trade Center, and Ziad Jarrahi, the pilot of United Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania after passengers apparently fought with the hijackers.[/b]

While bin Laden spoke, faces of the hijackers were superimposed on the screen. [/i]

there is surely some things that don't add up... i am not doubting that, and i have never not supported another 9.11 investigation to explain alot of things...

but to believe that atta wasn't a hijacker, you have to think that osama bin laden is a fascade, made up by the US government... that would mean that bill clinton, george bush, and the media are all working together to create a fictional character, so we can push a right wing agenda... it just doesn't add up to me....

[JBandJoeyV]

Does anyone else find it funny that there are thousands of facts that show that it was these arabs that did the attacks and there are very few facts that supposedly show it was the Israelis but people like AZ and BJ still believe it because they try so hard to want to believe it instead of just realizing the truth...

I dont think anyone has mentioned this yet but what about the guy that admitted recently that he was supposed to be involved in the attacks like the 20th hijacker or 19th or whatever the Moussaoui guy...but the answer is probably gonna be something along the lines of everything he said was forged by the US government or something

Edit: He might not have admitted to being involved but there is a lot of evidence to say that he was and an Al-Queda video said he was or something like that...

[Guest fredtoast]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' post='288997' date='Jun 30 2006, 12:00 AM']Hey Fred--First--If your cousin identified a different set of 'hijackers', gave their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where they acquired their funding, etc., does that mean that is what happened? What gives me evidence of the crime being commintted by these particular people that your cousin names? Bout as much evidence that your statement, or the information behind your statement, gave.

That leads to a few questions, more important and relevant for YOURSELF, Fred:
You're a believer in the "al qaeda, arab hijackers, war on terror, we're the good guys, the brown skinned towel heads are the bad guys" dialectic, tell me something--What evidence convinced YOU of what happened? Was there any evidence presented, or was it a simple, "this is what happened...and we're the government, so you must believe what we say happened."? If there was some evidence presented that was so convincing as to ... convince YOU, you MUST remember! did you not remember it? How then do you remember what happened? or did you simply follow what everyone else generally thought, according to the latest poll... Do you really KNOW what happened? Do you think what you currently think is the only way it could be? WAKE UP--[/quote]

First of all, you have obviosly not read any of my other posts in this section. If you had then you would realize that I am nothing like you paint me. i find this very compelling evidence of the way you think. You don't worry about doing any research before you reach an opinion. You form an opinion first then do research to back it up. You are the one who needs to wake up. If you had read anything else that i had ever posted you would kniow that everything you said about me is completely false. Thank you for proving beyond a doubt how flawed your form of reasoning is.

Now back to the original topic. All I did was refer you to the most complete compilation of evidence about what happened on 9-11. I even said that i didn't believe that it is 100% complete or accurate. All I said was that that was the evidence you would have to overcome if you want to PROVE that they didn't do it. I bet you have not even read the 9-11 report. It amazes me how people start to attack evidence without even knowing what it says.

What do you think happened on 9-11? I have some questions about what happened to the plane over PA, and I agree that some of the culprits may have been misidentified, but I believe that most of the story we got was correct. I am familiar with some of the numerous cospiracy theories out there, but most of them involve a plan that was 100 times more complicated than it needed to be and not nearly as effective as it could have been if it was a set up.

[Abu-Zayd]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='288983' date='Jun 29 2006, 11:06 PM']Just read the 9-11 Commission Report. You can get it on Amazon for about 7 bucks. Literally thousands of identified sources of information. It identifies the hijackkers, gives their backgrounds, where they came from, where they trained, where their funding came from, etc.. I'm not saying that it is 100% complete, but if you are going to claim that they DIDN'T do it then this will give you all the facts that you will have to overcome.[/quote]

From this I am hearing you tell me--1) Go read this report and you'll get your answer 2) In the report, you'll find who did it, why, when, how, where, etc.

I know the commision report is the OFFICIAL final say on what happened, as the Warren Commission's findings were to be the final word on the Kennedy Assassination. But how many people really believe that the poor guy, Lee Harvey (alone) killed the president? Remember, the original person nominated by Bush to head the commission was Henry Kissinger!

What I am requesting is not a suggestion to go read the book. I am asking you, since [b]YOU ARE CONVINCED of what happened on that day, TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED, and show me the evidence for what you say.[/b] What does not count as evidence: "this agency's findings indicate..." or "the world agrees..." or "the majority of people believe...".

Fred, I was a sergeant in the Army, I was the most gung ho joe there was. I am that sort of individual, I will do whatever I do, to the fullest. I believed what you believe now, at one point. That perspective was mine, as with many muslims even today. I even went to Church for some time, to see what other things in life were about. Somethings had to change my opinion. I never take anyone's word for anything, I test for myself...it is a flaw sometimes, as I am hard headed, however I don't believe anything until I am convinced of it.

That is what I am asking you to do. Convince me. Show me the money.

And understand something. If the people they have named did do it...shame on them. They should not hve done such a thing...it only worked to serve the interests of others, not theirs. It accomplished what? Nothing but hell for simple people like me, who have been cursed at, insulted, jumped (twice), and looked at with disdain since then. If they did it, I am ready to accept it and disclaim it and keep asking the Almighty for guidance. I would go so far as to say, "May almighty Allah / Elohim / Yahweh / Khuda / God curse those who caused the actions of 911 to occur". We agree that whoever did kill the nearly 4000 people were not good people.

I am asking for you to convince me. I believe that during this process, people will see that the evidence presented will not be really evidence at all. Also, **I believe** that you will learn as much about the event as the rest of us will.