Obama says some have 'hijacked' faith

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503936' date='Jun 25 2007, 09:31 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Really .... show me just one verse from the New Testament that mentions banning gay marriage, tax cuts for the rich, justifys preemptive wars and the death penalty, speaks out in support of a Capitalistic model of production for profit, advocates a closed border, etc etc etc
Cause I can show you a plethora of verses from the New testament that speak of forgiving your enemies, selling your possessions and giving everything to the poor, living communally and in a utopian style setting, speaking out against the money changers and condemning the rich, lambasting self righteous people who pray and judge others in public, that tell you to turn the other cheek and love the least among us. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[i]Have you ever heard of the term "Separation of Church and State". Jesus was preaching to the indivdual on how we are to interact with each other. Your attempt is to group individuals/politics as a single [u]secular[/u] entity.[/i]

[i]But, I am sure you have heard of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci"]Antonio Gramasci [/url](Marxist Theorist); he predicted thatLeftism would gradually make a "long march through the institutions" -- churches throughout the developed world have evolved into mouthpieces of Leftist doctrines. [/i]

and another thing, one who accuse's other's of presenting strawman arguments and red-herrings; you are the one that is pretty liberal when it comes to tossing those things around(no pun intended)

[Jamie_B]

Also I have no issue with Obama's faith and find it refreshing that someone on his side of the isle is speaking about it and you know he means it. It hasnt been since the days of MLK that you've really seen it on that side of the isle.

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503949' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:28 AM'][color="#2F4F4F"][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Why don't you see the books ....
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Rest of Esther
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy
Song of the Three Children
Story of Susanna
The Idol Bel and the Dragon
Prayer of Manasses
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
In the Bible ??? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]
not to mention the ....
Letter of Aristeas
Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah
Joseph and Aseneth
Life of Adam and Eve
Lives of the Prophets
Ladder of Jacob
4 Baruch
Jannes and Jambres
History of the Rechabites
Eldad and Modad
History of Joseph
Psalms of Solomon
Odes of Solomon
Prayer of Joseph
Prayer of Jacob
[u] When you have thre answer to that ... then you will understand that it was man who decided what should be included in "Gods Holy Book" [/b][/size][/font][/color][/u][/quote]

[i]At first glance; I would say they were not deem [u]inspired[/u]. [/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I find it ironic as well that when you look at the Gospels ... Jesus was disgusted with the church people of his day. Especially the Pharisees & Sadducees. For this ... they hunted him down like a dog and begged the Romans to crucify him, when he finally openly confronted the church people overturning their money changing tables while declaring that they the church people had turned his fathers house into a den of iniquity.


If Jesus lived today .... I believe you would find him in a traveling tent ministry tending to lepers and aids victims (and probably victims of US Shock and Awe) .... not at the WASP country club with the other wolf in sheeps clothing cock suckers who shroud themselves with the cross and use it to justify bigotry, greed, selfishness, and love for the military and George Bush. [/b][/size][/font]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503969' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:52 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I find it ironic as well that when you look at the Gospels ... Jesus was disgusted with the church people of his day. Especially the Pharisees & Sadducees. For this ... they hunted him down like a dog and begged the Romans to crucify him, when he finally openly confronted the church people overturning their money changing tables while declaring that they the church people had turned his fathers house into a den of iniquity.
If Jesus lived today .... I believe you would find him in a traveling tent ministry tending to lepers and aids victims (and probably victims of US Shock and Awe) .... not at the WASP country club with the other wolf in sheeps clothing cock suckers who shroud themselves with the cross and use it to justify bigotry, greed, selfishness, and love for the military and George Bush. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


I half agree, but I do think he would be speaking to those folk as well it wasnt as if he didnt talk to the Pharisees.

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503951' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:31 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]
So your theological qualifications are that you attended a small school house Church in Buttfuck KY/VA ? [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[i]If you would quit smoking that crap; you would recall the coincedental encounter of a friend a mine (whom I had not seen in five years).
The readers digest version; I was contemplating a conversion to catholiscm. It was during those bible studies sessions, I learned more and more with subsequently changing my mind.[/i]

[i]Additionally, Christian Apologetic Research Ministries and that one site that Jamie_B likes (never can remember the name) offer great insight to questions I may have.[/i]

[i]One thing about the church, the belief is that with small groups of shared faith is stronger than those huge buildings you see on TV. These people are genuinely loving people and demonstrate the true nature of christianity. This is where I have had brief interactions with Amish people.[/i]

[Jamie_B]

Honestly I see the relationship with Jesus and the Pharsiees in a very similar manner that Plato had with the Sophists. Both the Pharisees and Sophists were threatend by Jesus/Plato and both Jesus and Plato died, in Plato's case directly because of the Sophists and in Jesus' by the pharieses great influence. (Pilot (sp?) did have his influence reguardless of what Mel Gibson would have you believe.)

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#556B2F"][center][size=3][b]1 Tim. 6:10 ~[/b] [i]"For the [u]love of money is a root of all sorts of evil[/u], and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."[/i]



[b]Matthew 6:24 ~[/b] [i]"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. [u]You cannot serve God and Money."[/u][/i]



[b]Matthew 19:20 ~[/b] [i]"The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and [u]sell your possessions and give to the poor[/u], and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."[/i]



[b]Matthew 5:42 ~[/b] [i]"[u]Give to him who asks of you[/u], and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."[/i]



[b]Luke 3:11 ~[/b] [i]"And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, 'Let the man with two tunics [u]share with him who has none,[/u] and let him who has food do likewise."[/i]



[b]Luke 12:33 ~[/b] [i]"[u]Sell your possessions and give to charity;[/u] make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."[/i][/size][/center][/color]

[Jamie_B]

Lawman I dont use any paticular site as a "1st to go to", I do like Beliefnet, but most of the stuff I know comes from taking a New Testament class years ago at school (didnt get the chance to take old testament before I had to leave).

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][color="#8B0000"][size=3][b]Acts 2:44:[/b] [i]"All those who had believed were together, and [u]had all things in common;[/u] and they began to sell their property and [u]possessions,[/u] and [u]share them with all,[/u] [u]as anyone might have need.[/u]"[/i]




[b]Acts 4:32:[/b] [i]"And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but [u]all things were common property[/u] to them."[/i]




[b]Acts 4:34-35:[/b] [i]"For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and [u]they would be distributed to each, as any had need."[/u] [/size][/i][/color]



[size=4][b] Karl Marx couldn't have said it better [/b][/size][/center]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Lawman ... would you like to provide any scriptual basis to contradict any of this ?


It feels odd that I as the non believer am the one actually relying on scripture ... while you are relying on conjecture[/b][/size][/font]

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='503945' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:23 AM']and both the left and right do it. Neither get it completely right.[/quote]

Jamie_B,

Let's look at Barak Obama's voting record on abortion:

[b]SB 230 (1997) [/b] [color="#8B0000"]NO[/color]

[color="#000080"]To prohibit partial-birth abortion [b]unless necessary to save the life of a mother [/b]and makes performance of the procedure a Class 4 felony for the physician.[/color]

[i]In his defense, he may have argued (I don't know) behind the stipulation of the Class 4 felony for physcician. In Ohio, a conviction could yield 6-18 months in prison and a $5000 fine.[/i]

[b]HB 709 (2000)[/b] [color="#8B0000"]NO[/color]

[color="#000080"]To prohibit state funding of abortion and induced miscarriages [b]except when necessary to save the life of the mother[/b]. Excludes premature births from funding except to produce a viable child when necessary to save the life of a mother. [u]Would permit funding in cases of rape or incest when payment is authorized under federal law[/u].[/color]

[b]SB 1661 (2002)[/b][color="#8B0000"]NO[/color]

[color="#000080"]A part of the Born Alive Infant Protection Package. Would create a cause of action of a child is born alive after an abortion and the child is then neglected through failure to provide medial care after birth. [/color]

[b]Bottom line:[/b]

[i]Unlike other bills where he was present, but opted NOT to provide a vote; Obama caste a vote showing us where he stands. He approves of partial-birth abortions. Think about it, as a christian is not all life precious. Funny those who are in favor of abortion have already been born.[/i]

see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath"]Hippocratic_Oath[/url]

Just to add:

[b]HB 1812 (1999)[/b] [color="#8B0000"]NO[/color] [color="#000080"]To require school boards to install software on public computers accessible to minors to block sexually explicit material.[/color]

[i]He is possing as a moderate, but it is a facade.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote]I find it ironic as well that when you look at the Gospels ... Jesus was disgusted with the [s]church people[/s] [color="#000080"](Jews)[/color] of his day. Especially the Pharisees & Sadducees. For this ... they hunted him down like a dog and begged the Romans to crucify him, when he finally openly confronted the church people overturning their money changing tables while declaring that they the church people had turned his fathers house into a den of iniquity.[/quote]
[i]
fixed-it[/i]

[i]You fail to maintain historical continuity, the problem I believe is that you are in such haste to ingest some sort of ancedote related to Bush[/i]

[Jamie_B]

Like I said neither get it completely right. But I do like his compassion for the poor.

Here is a seperate take I read the other day.

[url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2007/06/bob-francis-the-new-prolife.html#comments"]http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/200...e.html#comments[/url]


[quote]Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Bob Francis: A New Pro-Life?
Two times last week during our Pentecost 2007 conference – at the presidential candidates forum Monday night and our march to Capitol Hill Tuesday afternoon – anti-abortion advocates not registered at our conference made their presence known in our midst. At face value, it seemed that they were there to protest our events, but I wanted to know more. So I wandered over to hear their stories and ended up talking for over an hour.

The group was young, passionate, and thoughtful. Our conversation covered a lot of ground. My very first question was whether they saw our respective messages as contradictory, and they adamantly said no. However, they qualified this by saying that they feel that sometimes groups can “forget” about certain issues and need to be reminded – an apparent dig at our priorities. It was clear that they see abortion as THE issue for Christians, the lens through which all other issues should be viewed.

What pleasantly surprised me, though, was how refreshingly different these young activists were from the stereotypes. While they have clearly chosen, for a variety of personal reasons, to make abortion their primary issue, they were hardly card-carrying members of the Religious Right. When I brought up the notion of a “seamless garment of life,” which would include stances against capital punishment and war, they were 100 percent on board. In fact, one of them was an outspoken vegan, taking his "seamless garment" ethic to the animal kingdom. They talked about the need for fair trade policies, and some had protested at WTO meetings. One of the women lives communally here in the U.S., trying to tread lightly on the earth. They were friends and fans of Shane Claiborne, a good friend of Sojourners and one of the keynote speakers at Pentecost 2007.

Together, we all lamented the false choices that are presented in the political world on the issues we care most about. For us, it seems that one party is often more in line with our vision for eradicating poverty and caring for “the least of these” by means other than the free market (which is anything but free – have you seen our commodity subsidies, for example?), but they often drop the ball on abortion. Conversely, the other party has integrally incorporated a strong stance against abortion into its platform in past years, yet it seems resistant to comprehensive abortion reduction measures and on many other counts fails to remotely approach what we all felt would be a biblical platform that values all life and truly cares for the poor. They also lamented that they are so often lumped in with the Religious Right, when they are anything but.

These young activists impressed me with their fervor, their organization, and most importantly, their overall sensibilities. While I may disagree with them on how much emphasis they put upon one issue at the expense of others, I was truly surprised at how much we had in common. It got me excited about the possibility of a new Third Way among our young activists of faith, a way in which we uphold a seamless garment of life while also upholding a robust compassion for the poorest among us, both here and abroad. It is a Third Way in which we fight for the unborn and the migrant farmer; where we advocate for the radical reduction of abortions and fair trade and debt reduction for poor nations; where we care for the unborn child while not forgetting mother and child once the baby comes into the world.

Maybe there is potential for a new pro-life movement that is pro-life in EVERY way, where young activists with different emphases but the same heart join to – as my boss says – not go right or left, but deeper.[/quote]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='504001' date='Jun 25 2007, 11:57 AM'][i]
fixed-it[/i][/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Of course I know they were Jews .... how could you have Christians before Christ ... my point was to make an analogy to the synagogue going people (Church going people) of his day - since there was no "Christian Church" and Jesus would have never even called himself a "Christian" (hell his name wasn't even Christ) ... and he was a Jew. [/b][/size][/font]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='503998' date='Jun 25 2007, 11:48 AM']Let's look at Barak Obama's voting record on abortion:


[i]He is possing as a moderate, but it is a facade.[/i][/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Where does God in the Bible address the rights of fetuses or say that removing a fetus from the womb is wrong ? [/b][/size][/font]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503993' date='Jun 25 2007, 11:40 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Lawman ... would you like to provide any scriptual basis to contradict any of this ?
It feels odd that I as the non believer am the one actually relying on scripture ... while you are relying on conjecture[/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[quote]Acts 4:34-35: "For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need."[/quote]

[b]Uh, see below[/b]:

[url="http://www.ccusa.org/info.asp"]http://www.ccusa.org/info.asp[/url]

There are 82 Christian charities on this site.

But, better yet check out the Yahoo directory of Christian Charities.

[url="http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Christianity/Organizations/Charities/"]http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/R...ions/Charities/[/url]

[i]BJ, you want the government to take the place of these groups and I am telling you I do not. The government cannot do as good of a job as these groups. The government has alot of things to be concerned with while the premise of these groups are to provide assistance for the needy.[/i]

[i]The first responders to Katrina were faith based organizations, yet they recieved limited media attention. Oh how I despise the media.

Again, Jesus was talking to the Individual and how he should live a righteous life, not to the action of governments.[/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]Numbers 31:17 ~[/b] (Moses) [i]“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”[/i] [color="#0000FF"]In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.[/color]

[b]Hosea 13:16 ~ [/b] God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. [color="#0000FF"]= God kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.[/color]


[b]2 Kings 15:16 ~[/b] God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be “ripped open”. [color="#0000FF"]= clearly abortion[/color]



[b][color="#0000FF"]= and there are many more instances of God advocating abortion, which I will be happy to list if need be. [/color][/b]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='504004' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:07 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Where does God in the Bible address the rights of fetuses or say that removing a fetus from the womb is wrong ? [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[img]http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/free/Pics/10_Comm.gif[/img]

#6

[Lawman]

[color="#0000FF"]Numbers 31:17 ~ (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” [color="#0000FF"]In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus[/color][/color].

[i]at first glance; could mean [u]virgins[/u].[/i]

[b]Disclaimer: I do not have the bible memorized, I do know where to go for specific info.[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='504007' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:13 PM'][img]http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/free/Pics/10_Comm.gif[/img]

#6 [/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]And who says Abortion is murder ?


Also will you be applying #6 to the Death Penalty and the War on Terror ? [/b][/size][/font]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='504004' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:07 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Where does God in the Bible address the rights of fetuses or say that removing a fetus from the womb is wrong ? [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

I would expect you to go on about War after this, and I would be in agreement with you. My position is that we are not currently involved in any wars that follow the "just war" priciples. (which I think we just disagree on that notion of just war) However if we were to enter Darfur under the sole reason of stopping the genocide (and nothing else) I could concider that just.

[url="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/120/story_12023_1.html"]http://www.beliefnet.com/story/120/story_12023_1.html[/url]

[quote]'Choose Life': Abortion in the Bible
The 'Christian' pro-choice position is nothing more than an accommodation to modern secular belief--and is completely unbiblical
By Randy Alcorn

Excerpted from a longer essay with permission of Eternal Perspective Ministries.

There is a small but influential circle of prochoice advocates who claim to base their beliefs on the Bible. They maintain that "nowhere does the Bible prohibit abortion." [1] Yet the Bible clearly prohibits the killing of innocent people (Exodus 20:13). All that is necessary to prove a biblical prohibition of abortion is to demonstrate that the Bible considers the unborn to be human beings.
Personhood in the Bible

A number of ancient societies opposed abortion,[2] but the ancient Hebrew society had the clearest reasons for doing so because of its foundations in the scriptures. The Bible teaches that men and women are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). As the climax of God's creation mankind has an intrinsic worth far greater than that of the animal kingdom placed under His care. Throughout the Scriptures, personhood is never measured by age, stage of development, or mental, physical, or social skills. Personhood is endowed by God at the moment of creation - before which there was not a human being and after which there is. That moment of creation can be nothing other than the moment of conception.

The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament to refer to the unborn (Exodus 21:22-25) is yeled, a word that "generally indicates young children, but may refer to teens or even young adults." [3] The Hebrews did not have or need a separate word for unborn children. They were just like any other children, only younger. In the Bible there are references to born children and unborn children, but there is no such thing as a potential, incipient, or "almost" child.

Job graphically described the way God created him before he was born (Job 10:8-12). The person in the womb was not something that might become Job, but someone who was Job, just a younger version of the same man. To Isaiah, God says, "This is what the Lord says - he who made you, who formed you in the womb" (Isaiah 44:2). What each person is, not merely what he might become, was present in his mother's womb.

Psalm 139:13-16 paints a graphic picture of the intimate involvement of God with a preborn person. God created David's "inmost being," not at birth, but before birth. David says to his Creator, "You knit me together in my mother's womb." Each person, regardless of his parentage of handicap, has not been manufactured on a cosmic assembly line, but has been personally knitted together by God in the womb. All the days of his life have been planned out by God before any have come to be (Psalm 139:16).

As a member of the human race that has rejected God, each person sinned "in Adam," and is therefore a sinner from his very beginning (Romans 5:12-19). David says, "Surely I was sinful at birth." Then he goes back even further, back before birth to the actual beginning of his life, saying he was "sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). Each person has a sinful nature from the point of conception. Who but an actual person can have a sinful nature? Rocks and trees and animals and human organs do not have moral natures, good or bad. Morality can be ascribed only to a person. That there is a sin nature at the point of conception demonstrates that there is a person present who is capable of having such a nature.[/quote]



[quote name='Lawman' post='504005' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:11 PM'][b]Uh, see below[/b]:

[url="http://www.ccusa.org/info.asp"]http://www.ccusa.org/info.asp[/url]

There are 82 Christian charities on this site.

But, better yet check out the Yahoo directory of Christian Charities.

[url="http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Christianity/Organizations/Charities/"]http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/R...ions/Charities/[/url]

[i]BJ, you want the government to take the place of these groups and I am telling you I do not. The government cannot do as good of a job as these groups. The government has alot of things to be concerned with while the premise of these groups are to provide assistance for the needy.[/i]

[i]The first responders to Katrina were faith based organizations, yet they recieved limited media attention. Oh how I despise the media.

Again, [color="#FF0000"]Jesus was talking to the Individual and how he should live a righteous life, not to the action of governments[/color].[/i][/quote]


He also said that we are to give to Cesar what is Ceasers. I take that to mean that if the goverment is involved in providing and helping others, we should pay the taxes to do so. The only time we are to disobey is if the laws are unjust, and I dont think you can define any law that helps the poor as unjust.

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='504006' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:13 PM'][b]Numbers 31:17 ~[/b] (Moses) [i]“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”[/i] [color="#0000FF"]In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.[/color]

[b]Hosea 13:16 ~ [/b] God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. [color="#0000FF"]= God kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.[/color]
[b]2 Kings 15:16 ~[/b] God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be “ripped open”. [color="#0000FF"]= clearly abortion[/color]
[b][color="#0000FF"]= and there are many more instances of God advocating abortion, which I will be happy to list if need be. [/color][/b][/quote]

[i]I have shown your errors in the past and I will show your error concerning "The Council of Niccea", soon.

What I am telling you is that your drive-by passages have contextual meanings, which you [b]always[/b] ommit.[/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='504010' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:18 PM']Each person, regardless of his parentage of handicap, has not been manufactured on a cosmic assembly line, but has been personally knitted together by God in the womb. All the days of his life have been planned out by God before any have come to be (Psalm 139:16).[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Well in that case ... God would already know that you were going to be aborted and thus he wouldn't plan out the rest of your days.


Do you believe that God already knows what is going to happen ? [/b][/size][/font]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='504010' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:18 PM']He also said that we are to give to Cesar what is Ceasers.[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Exactly ... this would translate into

Give unto Castro's what is Castro's would it not ?[/b][/size][/font]