Obama says some have 'hijacked' faith

[Jamie_B]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070623/ap_on_el_pr/obama_religion_7;_ylt=AmVWNz7G89GPlrcxzuBn4kUE1vAI"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070623/ap_on_...rcxzuBn4kUE1vAI[/url]

[quote]HARTFORD, Conn. - Sen. Barack Obama told a church convention Saturday that some right-wing evangelical leaders have exploited and politicized religious beliefs in an effort to sow division.

"Somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together and faith started being used to drive us apart," the Democratic presidential candidate said in a 30-minute speech before the national meeting of the United Church of Christ.

"Faith got hijacked, partly because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, all too eager to exploit what divides us," the Illinois senator said.

"At every opportunity, they've told evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage, school prayer and intelligent design," according to an advance copy of his speech.

"There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich," Obama said. "I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version."

A call to the Washington, D.C.-based Christian Coalition of America seeking comment was not immediately returned Saturday.

Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ, a church of about 1.2 million members that is considered one the most liberal of the mainline Protestant groups.

In 1972, the church was the first to ordain an openly gay man. Two years ago, the church endorsed same-sex marriage, the largest Christian denomination to do so. Obama believes that states should decide whether to allow gay marriage, and he opposes a constitutional amendment against it.

Conservative Christian bloggers have linked Obama to what they call the "unbiblical" teachings of his church. Theological conservatives believe gay relationships violate Scripture, while more liberal Christians emphasize the Bible's social justice teachings.

Obama trails Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York by 33 percent to 21 percent in the most recent Associated Press-Ipsos poll among Democrats and those leaning toward the party.[/quote]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][size=3][quote name='Jamie_B' post='503652' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:28 AM']"There was even a time when the Christian Coalition determined that its number one legislative priority was tax cuts for the rich," Obama said. "I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't jibe with my version."[/quote][/size]


[/center]

[Lawman]

[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/us/politics/24obama.html"]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/us/politics/24obama.html[/url]

[color="#000080"]Faith Has Role in Politics, Obama Tells Church[/color]

[b]By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: June 24, 2007[/b]

[color="#000080"]HARTFORD, June 23 — Addressing the 50th anniversary convention of his own denomination, the United Church of Christ, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois said Saturday that the religious right had “hijacked” faith and divided the country by exploiting issues like abortion, same-sex marriage and school prayer.[/color]

[color="#000080"]But Mr. Obama said that religion has a rightful role to play in American politics, and he praised people of faith who he said are now using their influence to try to unite Americans against problems like poverty, AIDS, the health care crisis and the violence in Darfur.

“My faith teaches me that I can sit in church and pray all I want, but I won’t be fulfilling God’s will unless I go out and do the Lord’s work,” he said, speaking before more than 9,000 people at the Hartford Civic Center in front of a red and black backdrop with the church’s marketing slogan: “God is still speaking.” [/color]

[b]The United Church of Christ prides itself on its inclusiveness of racial minorities, gay men and lesbians and people with disabilities, and its focus on social injustice. In 1972, it became the first mainline Protestant denomination to ordain an openly gay minister, and two years ago it passed a resolution in support of equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. [/b]

Church leaders said that the speaking invitation to Mr. Obama was not an endorsement, and they asked audience members not to bring any Obama campaign buttons or signs into the convention center during his speech.

The church’s president, the Rev. John Thomas, told the crowd that the invitation had been made more than a year ago, well before the senator declared his candidacy for president. Mr. Thomas said they wanted someone prominent who could talk about how to apply faith to politics.

“It is also a recognition that he is one of ours,” Mr. Thomas said.

[color="#000080"]Mr. Obama told the audience [b]he had been a spiritual skeptic raised in no particular tradition[/b]. In his 20s, as a community organizer working with churches in Chicago, ministers there told him, “If you’re organizing churches it might be helpful if you went to church sometimes.” [/color]

[url="http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/001950print.html"]http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/001950print.html[/url]

[color="#000080"]He joined Trinity United Church of Christ, moved by sermons by its senior pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., who runs a megachurch — with 8,500 members — in a denomination where many churches are country steeples-on-the-green with memberships of 100 or less.

To conservatives looking to criticize Mr. Obama, Mr. Wright has proved a convenient target, with his Afrocentric worship style, trips to Cuba and Libya and pointed criticism of American foreign policy. The day before Mr. Obama announced his candidacy, he withdrew his invitation to Mr. Wright to speak at the event.

However, Mr. Obama’s speech here was preceded by a videotaped introduction from Mr. Wright. The church president, Mr. Thomas, said Mr. Wright could not attend because he had a commitment to officiate at a wedding.

Mr. Obama used his 45-minute speech to recall the church’s and many others’ proud history of involvement in the American Revolution and the abolition and civil rights movements.

“But somehow, somewhere along the way, faith stopped being used to bring us together,” Mr. Obama said. “Faith started being used to drive us apart. Faith got hijacked.”

He attributed this partly to “the so-called leaders of the Christian right, who’ve been all too eager to exploit what divides us.” Yet he said that in traveling around the country he had sensed an “awakening” of an interfaith movement of “progressives.”

He received one of several standing ovations when he pledged that by the end of a term as president, “I will sign a universal health care bill into law.” And he received sustained applause when he called for closing the prison at Guantánamo Bay and withdrawing troops from Iraq.

He said he would push for another effort next week to pass an immigration bill. He said that illegal immigrants must have a chance to “earn their citizenship.”

[b]Mr. Obama was preaching to a supportive but not totally uncritical choir. Nancy Wagner, of Spring Grove, Pa., said she liked his agenda [u]but was left with “a little doubt” about his sincerity[/u], “simply because I don’t trust politicians.”[/b]

But Penny Selbee, a retired public health nurse, said: “I thought it was inspiring. How do you even choose what was the best part?”[/color]

[i]I was surprised to find any mentioning in this article (NYT) where some christian groups favored tax-cuts for the rich.[/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][color="#A0522D"][b][font="Arial Narrow"][size=5]James 5:1-6:[/size][/b] [i][size=4]"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."[/size][/font][/i][/color][/center]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#4B0082"][center][size=4][b]Psalms 140:12 ~[/b] [i]"I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor."[/i]



[b]Proverbs 22:9 ~[/b] [i]"He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor."[/i]



[b]Luke 6:24 ~[/b] [i]"But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."[/i]



[b]Proverbs 29:7 ~[/b] [i]"The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern."[/i][/size][/center][/color]

[Guest BengalBacker]

Far be it for me to defend the religious right, or left for that matter, but as an outsider it seems to me that the far right is closer to the bible's teachings in general than Obama's church. If anything, his church would seem to be the hijacker.

My guess is also that the "tax cuts for the rich" thing had more to do with job creation than stuffing rich folks' pockets. Although the two often go hand in hand.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='503794' date='Jun 24 2007, 07:01 PM']as an outsider it seems to me that the far right is closer to the bible's teachings in general than Obama's church. If anything, his church would seem to be the hijacker.[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]The right is closer to the teachings of the Old Testament and Leviticus

The left is closer to the Sermon on the Mount and the New Testament.


This is indisputable when you look at the scriptures. [/b][/size][/font]

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503796' date='Jun 24 2007, 07:13 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]The right is closer to the teachings of the Old Testament and Leviticus

The left is closer to the Sermon on the Mount and the New Testament.
This is indisputable when you look at the scriptures. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


Could be, but if the old testament isn't to be believed it shouldn't be included as part of the bible.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='503810' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:10 PM']Could be, but if the old testament isn't to be believed it shouldn't be included as part of the bible.[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]"Man" included it in the Bible .... God didn't.

To be more precise ... the Catholic Church at the council of Nicea included it.


I believe it was included to provide historical context to the new testament .... however ... it also makes great justification for bigotry - and allows someone to cloak themselves in the bible ... without ever actually focusing on anything Jesus talked about.


I think the Bible would be a far better book if it began with Matthew and ended with Acts. [/b][/size][/font]

[Fanatical]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img] Religions can be hijacked!?!? STOP THE PRESSES!! [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/13.gif[/img]


Its good to Obama is honest.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503811' date='Jun 24 2007, 06:22 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]"Man" included it in the Bible .... God didn't.

To be more precise ... the [size=5]Catholic Church at the council of Nicea included it[/size].
I believe it was included to provide historical context to the new testament .... however ... it also makes great justification for bigotry - and allows someone to cloak themselves in the bible ... without ever actually focusing on anything Jesus talked about.
I think the Bible would be a far better book if it began with Matthew and ended with Acts. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]
Wait a minute....aren't the Old Testament and the Torah pretty identical for the most part?

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503811' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:22 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]"Man" included it in the Bible .... God didn't. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

He tell ya that. did he?

"Man" decided everything that is or isn't included in the Bible, including the New Testament. The question is whether or not it was directed by God. You seem to be saying the New Testament is, the Old Testament isn't. Interesting theory, but just a theory.

[Lawman]

[b]Old Testament vs New Testament[/b]

[i]Did Jesus abolish the Law (of the Old Testament)or not?[/i]

[b]No.[/b] [i](Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." [/i]

[color="#000080"]In Matthew 5:17 Jesus is speaking about the Old Testament principles and authority of rule and revelation. When Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he came to establish it and demonstrate [b]how it pointed to him and how he would live it perfectly[/b].[/color]


[b]Yes.[/b] [i](Eph. 2:14-15), "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." [/i]

[color="#000080"]In Eph. 2:14-15, Paul is speaking about how the gentiles who were called the uncircumcision (v. 11), were separated from Christ (v. 12), but have now been brought near (to God) by the blood of Christ (v. 13). [b]Jesus removed the requirement of having to follow the Law and order to please God, established justification by faith, and thereby united both Jew and Gentile into one group in Christ[/b]. This is when Paul says in verse 15 that he abolished in his flesh the enmity which is the law of commandments in ordinances. [u] The Law was that which separated Jew from Gentile and since it has been fulfilled in Christ, it is no longer something that would separate Jew and Gentile.[/u][/color]

[i]Circumcision is no longer required as with the Law against [b]eating[/b] pork.[/i]

[i]Leviticus was inspired by God to Moses. Leviticus is the third book of the first five in the Bible written by Moses also known as the Pentateuch/ Laws of Moses.

Leviticus focuses with instructions on sacrificial system and the priesthood and on moral purity.

One must understand that these laws were handed down specifically for the Isrealites (noticed I did not say Jews); in order to establish a lineage (based on God's will) from which Jesus would arrive.

Jesus entered through the lineage of Mary (not Joseph); sin entered into the World through Adam and NOT Eve. Jesus is sometimes refered to as the 2nd Adam.[/i]

[i]BJ, where did you recieve your theological education?[/i] [i]If you don't care to answer, I'll understand.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503796' date='Jun 24 2007, 07:13 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]The right is closer to the teachings of the Old Testament and Leviticus

The left is closer to the Sermon on the Mount and the New Testament.
This is indisputable when you look at the scriptures. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[i]It's called "Cherry pick'in".[/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='503853' date='Jun 24 2007, 10:57 PM']Wait a minute....aren't the Old Testament and the Torah pretty identical for the most part?[/quote]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]The Torah is only the first 5 books of the Old Testament ... And they are not identical (Jews would say that the Torah must be read in Hebrew to acquire the full meaning). [/b][/size][/font]





[quote name='BengalBacker' post='503902' date='Jun 25 2007, 01:10 AM']He tell ya that. did he?

"Man" decided everything that is or isn't included in the Bible, including the New Testament. The question is whether or not it was directed by God. You seem to be saying the New Testament is, the Old Testament isn't. Interesting theory, but just a theory.[/quote]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]he didn't tell me anything ...

I don't believe either was directed by God .... I believe it all was directed by man. I was merely pointing out that man shaped the order of the bible and decided which books would be included. They banned many of the gnostic gospels for instance. [/b][/size][/font]






[quote name='Lawman' post='503931' date='Jun 25 2007, 08:42 AM'][i]BJ, where did you recieve your theological education?[/i] [i]If you don't care to answer, I'll understand.[/i][/quote]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I applied to "Copy and Paste University" .... but apparently you took the last spot ... so I settled for independent study.

What about you .... where did you recieve your theological credentials ? Down at the Gitmo Gulag ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/b][/size][/font]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='503932' date='Jun 25 2007, 08:44 AM'][i]It's called "Cherry pick'in".[/i][/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Really .... show me just one verse from the New Testament that mentions banning gay marriage, tax cuts for the rich, justifys preemptive wars and the death penalty, speaks out in support of a Capitalistic model of production for profit, advocates a closed border, etc etc etc


Cause I can show you a plethora of verses from the New testament that speak of forgiving your enemies, selling your possessions and giving everything to the poor, living communally and in a utopian style setting, speaking out against the money changers and condemning the rich, lambasting self righteous people who pray and judge others in public, that tell you to turn the other cheek and love the least among us. [/b][/size][/font]

[Guest bengalrick]

Obama should then go on a [i]crusade[/i] to take it back.... er.... never mind... maybe i shouldn't use that word.....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lawman' post='503932' date='Jun 25 2007, 08:44 AM'][i]It's called "Cherry pick'in".[/i][/quote]


and both the left and right do it. Neither get it completely right.

[Lawman]

[quote]applied to "Copy and Paste University" .... but apparently you took the last spot ... so [b]I settled for independent study[/b].

What about you .... where did you recieve your theological credentials ? Down at the Gitmo Gulag ?[/quote]

Green River Valley [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_Baptist"]Separate[/url] Baptist (Ky), various Church of Christ.

[color="#000080"]The Great Awakening served to both invigorate and divide churches. Many denominations divided into Old Lights - holding a low view of the revivalism, and sometimes directly opposing it - and New Lights - who enthusiastically embraced it. Many New Lights felt that the old ways had allowed too many unconverted church members, and by the end of the 1740s some of the New Lights believed the established churches could not be reformed from within and withdrew from them. A favorite verse among them was II Corinthians 6:17 -[i] "Come out from among them, and be ye separate." This led to them being called "Separates[/i]".[/color]
[color="#000080"]
For a time these Baptists remained somewhat distinct from the Regular Baptists. They were in the main in agreement with the Regulars, but holding to some minor points of difference. According to Edwards, "[b]These are called Separates, not because they withdrew from the Regular-baptists but because they have hitherto declined any union with them. The faith and order of both are the same, except some trivial matters not sufficient to support a distinction, but less a disunion; for both avow the Century-Confession and the annexed discipline."[/b]

One distinction was in the number of ordinances or rites observed by the Separates. [i]The nine rites were baptism, the Lord's supper, love feasts, laying on of hands, washing feet, anointing the sick, the right hand of fellowship, kiss of charity, and devoting children[/i]. [b]Not all the churches practiced all nine of these[/b], but most churches practiced more than the two ordinances generally held by the Regular Baptists - baptism and the Lord's supper.

Except for a remnant, the denominational name Separate Baptist mostly disappeared with the formal and informal agreements of union between the Regular Baptists and Separate Baptists, beginning in Virginia in 1787, in the Carolinas in 1789, and in Kentucky in 1797 & 1801. As recorded by Benedict, the conclusion of the terms of union in Virginia stated, "...we are united, and desire hereafter, that the names Regular and Separate be buried in oblivion; and that from henceforth, we shall be known by the name of the United Baptist Churches, in Virginia."[/color]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Independence,_Indiana.png/800px-Independence,_Indiana.png[/img]

[i]Very similar to the church I attended in my youth; I have many of relatives buried on the church's grounds.[/i]

[quote]I settled for independent study[/quote]

[i]"Cherry-pickin"[/i]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#2F4F4F"][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Why don't you see the books ....


1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Rest of Esther
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy
Song of the Three Children
Story of Susanna
The Idol Bel and the Dragon
Prayer of Manasses
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees



In the Bible ??? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]


not to mention the ....


Letter of Aristeas
Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah
Joseph and Aseneth
Life of Adam and Eve
Lives of the Prophets
Ladder of Jacob
4 Baruch
Jannes and Jambres
History of the Rechabites
Eldad and Modad
History of Joseph
Psalms of Solomon
Odes of Solomon
Prayer of Joseph
Prayer of Jacob



[u] When you have thre answer to that ... then you will understand that it was man who decided what should be included in "Gods Holy Book" [/b][/size][/font][/color][/u]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Lawman' post='503948' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:28 AM'][i]Very similar to the church I attended in my youth; I have many of relatives buried on the church's grounds.[/i][/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]


So your theological qualifications are that you attended a small school house Church in Buttfuck KY/VA ? [/b][/size][/font]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='503945' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:23 AM']and both the left and right do it. Neither get it completely right.[/quote]
Agreed. We are talking about politicians though, right. What more do we expect?

[Jamie_B]

You know BJ he could ask yours as well?

Rather I think the better question in this case is what are your pastor's qualifications, where did he go to seminary because the knowledge most get of the Bible comes from church or sunday school, the majority of the country dont go to seminary or christian colleges.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='503957' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:37 AM']You know BJ he could ask yours as well? [/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=4][b]He did [/b][/size][/font]


[quote name='Lawman' post='503931' date='Jun 25 2007, 08:42 AM'][i]BJ, where did you recieve your theological education?[/i] [i]If you don't care to answer, I'll understand.[/i][/quote]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='503955' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:37 AM']Agreed. We are talking about politicians though, right. What more do we expect?[/quote]


On occasion there are those politicans who at least can work with the religous community. JFK and MLK to an extent.

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='503959' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:40 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=4][b]He did [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


my fault I missed that.