Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504010' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:18 PM']Yet the Bible clearly prohibits the killing of innocent people (Exodus 20:13).[/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] What Bible are they reading ? I could cite hundreds of instances where the deaths of innocents was approved by God and even commanded in the Old Testament. Now in the New Testament I will grant you that there is the suggestion that you should not kill anyone ... but even then it is not offered up as a commandment - and certainly not to protoplasmic goo that has just joined sperm and egg (or stem cells etc). (Late Term abortion would be a different story - and I oppose that practice) [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504014' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:24 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Well in that case ... God would already know that you were going to be aborted and thus he wouldn't plan out the rest of your days. Do you believe that God already knows what is going to happen ? [/b][/size][/font][/quote] I know where your going with this and the free will notion. I tend to agree with this guy... [url="http://www.ichthys.com/Pet3.htm"]http://www.ichthys.com/Pet3.htm[/url] [quote]b. The Divine Plan: We know, however, that not all His creatures (whether human or angelic) choose to serve Him. God could easily have constructed a universe where all people obey Him as naturally as plants turn to face the sun. Instead, He desired that those who serve Him choose to do so of their own free will. In His immense wisdom, God fashioned a plan which took into account the free will actions of all His moral creatures before they yet existed (Jer.1:5). Before God said "Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3), He set the course of history according to his plan, and did so without compromising the free will of His creatures in any way: He was simply intelligent enough (in fact omniscient) to know "what we would do before we did it" and powerful enough (in fact omnipotent) to incorporate these actions into His plan. Therefore we should not imagine that God merely has the ability to intervene in history, but realize that He ratified and established every action that would take place before the dawn of time.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504010' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:18 PM']I would expect you to go on about War after this, and I would be in agreement with you. My position is that we are not currently involved in any wars that follow the "just war" priciples. (which I think we just disagree on that notion of just war) However if we were to enter Darfur under the sole reason of stopping the genocide (and nothing else) I could concider that just. [url="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/120/story_12023_1.html"]http://www.beliefnet.com/story/120/story_12023_1.html[/url] He also said that we are to give to Cesar what is Ceasers. I take that to mean that if the goverment is involved in providing and helping others, we should pay the taxes to do so. The only time we are to disobey is if the laws are unjust, and I dont think you can define any law that helps the poor as unjust.[/quote] [i]I could not agree more, see the post on Christian charities.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504018' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:34 PM']I know where your going with this and the free will notion. I tend to agree with this guy... [url="http://www.ichthys.com/Pet3.htm"]http://www.ichthys.com/Pet3.htm[/url][/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Exactly .... so God would not plan out someones days who he WOULD KNOW was going to be aborted. Thus that argument of having all your days plotted out only to be snuffed out by abortion is crap. [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504015' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:25 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Exactly ... this would translate into Give unto Castro's what is Castro's would it not ?[/b][/size][/font][/quote] So long as Castro is being just with it I dont care. I dont fear socialsism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504023' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:37 PM']So long as Castro is being just with it I dont care. I dont fear socialsism.[/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]There is not even the caveat of "being just" ... it is just render ... not render to the just leaders only. [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504022' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:36 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Exactly .... so God would not plan out someones days who he WOULD KNOW was going to be aborted. Thus that argument of having all your days plotted out only to be snuffed out by abortion is crap. [/b][/size][/font][/quote] But its not the choice of the one that is aborted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504025' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:39 PM']But its not the choice of the one that is aborted.[/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b] Of course it isn't ... but then again niether is being created in the first place. [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504024' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:38 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]There is not even the caveat of "being just" ... it is just render ... not render to the just leaders only. [/b][/size][/font][/quote] Christians are taught to follow the rule of law but to opposes unjust laws. (Which is why I like this type of immagration reform.) [url="http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.display&item=CCIR_main"]http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=actio...;item=CCIR_main[/url] We believe in the rule of law, but we also believe that we are to oppose unjust laws and systems that harm and oppress people made in God's image, especially the vulnerable (Isaiah 10:1-4, Jeremiah 7:1-7, Acts 5:29, Romans 13:1-7). So yes we are to render to ceaser but if ceaser is making laws that harm and opress people then we are to oppose that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504026' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:40 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b] Of course it isn't ... but then again niether is being created in the first place. [/b][/size][/font][/quote] i agree, im not sure that changes the stance however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]And who says Abortion is murder ?[/quote] [i]Here we go again. When a women is pregnant, she is caring for human life. She is not carrying a loaf of bread, a can of paint or a mailbox. If allowed to complete term, a human being will be produced. While in the womb, the baby is a living organism. Wiki says: Murder is the malicious and unlawful killing of one human being by another.[/i] [i]Yes, I understand that your argument is that [i]it [/i]is only a fetus and not yet a human therefore there can be no murder, I say semantics and disagree by previous reasoning.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504025' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:39 PM']But its not the choice of the one that is aborted.[/quote] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//6.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='504034' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:47 PM']the baby is a living organism.[/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]So is Sperm ... so is shooting sperm on your wifes tits murder too ? What about the fact that God set up the woman to 'abort' for all intents and purposes her own eggs if not used. Also ... how come you argue against aborting fetuses ... but support murder of living people in military action ? [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 By the way can we make note of this thread as proof that BJ and I dont always agree? (Since Rudi32 seems to think we do.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Also Christianity says that all sins are equal ... thus lying is as bad as murder. Now I would assume you don't support a law making lying illegal .... so why one making abortion which you find to be murder illegal ? They both are just as bad of a sin in Gods eyes are they not ? [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]I could cite hundreds of instances where the deaths of innocents was approved by God and even commanded in the Old Testament.[/quote] [i]But, the question is, Can you provide the context of those pasages? What is the meaning or what is going on during those events?[/i] [i]and, why did God allow this to happen?[/i] [i]You cannot view the Old Testament through a prism based on the conditions of the year of 2007. [/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504044' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:58 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Also Christianity says that all sins are equal ... thus lying is as bad as murder. Now I would assume you don't support a law making lying illegal .... so why one making abortion which you find to be murder illegal ? They both are just as bad of a sin in Gods eyes are they not ? [/b][/size][/font][/quote] I dont, I just dont want it federally funded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]Now I would assume you don't support a [u]law making lying illegal [/u]....[/quote] [i]This is like deja-vu all over again. Yogi Berra.[/i] [i]What is perjury? Actium, you out there?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='504048' date='Jun 25 2007, 01:01 PM'][i]This is like deja-vu all over again. Yogi Berra.[/i] [i]What is perjury? Actium, you out there?[/i][/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]perjury is lying under oath to a judge or grandjury after swearing to tell the truth .... I mean lying in any context. Or hell what about a law on adultery ? Or making false gods ? [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='504041' date='Jun 25 2007, 12:55 PM']By the way can we make note of this thread as proof that BJ and I dont always agree? (Since Rudi32 seems to think we do.) [/quote] [i]Not meaning to hijack the thread, but have you checked out the 60 minutes piece on Lou Dobb. I like Lou Doobs, but there are some things I disagree with him on. The polarization in this country needs to stop.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='504051' date='Jun 25 2007, 01:04 PM'][i]Not meaning to hijack the thread, but have you checked out the 60 minutes piece on Lou Dobb. I like Lou Doobs, but there are some things I disagree with him on. The polarization in this country needs to stop.[/i][/quote] havent seen it. Dobbs likes to scare people with that stuff IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote]Or making false gods ?[/quote] [i]Last time I checked, counterfieting was illegal.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Hell not keeping the Sabbath day Holy (Which is Saturday by the way not Sunday) is just as bad as killing someone. Remember that the next time you have a beer while watching the Buckeye game. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='504054' date='Jun 25 2007, 01:06 PM'][i]Last time I checked, counterfieting was illegal.[/i] [/quote] [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b] I knew I would slowly have an effect on you [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='504056' date='Jun 25 2007, 01:08 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b] I knew I would slowly have an effect on you [/b][/size][/font][/quote] [i]Satanic Verses[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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