NY-New Driver License Rules

[ScarletKnight]

NY Changes Rules for Licenses
New York to Allow Illegal Immigrants to Get Drivers' LicensesThe Associated Press By PAT MILTON Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK Sep 21, 2007 (AP)

Share New York will allow illegal immigrants who have a valid foreign passport to get a driver's license, with a goal of bringing "people out of the shadows" into American society, Gov. Eliot Spitzer said Friday.

New York has between 500,000 and 1 million undocumented immigrants, many of whom are driving without a license and car insurance or with fake driver's licenses, Spitzer said at a news conference announcing the executive order.

"They no longer need to hide and pretend they are not here," said Spitzer. "We will not become part of what is propagated on the federal level that if we don't admit they are here then we can somehow not provide services. That is bad policy."

Under the new policy, immigrants regardless of their status will be permitted to provide a current, verifiable foreign passport in applying for a license. The policy will be phased in over time beginning in December 2007. Similar policies have been adopted in Utah, New Mexico and other states.

The change drew the scorn of some Republican lawmakers from New York. Rep. Randy Kuhl, a Republican, said the new policy "undermines the preventive measures that protect our country from national security threats. The September 11, 2001, hijackers had at least 35 licenses, which helped them to rent cars and open bank accounts."

"This policy encourages people to flood New York State and wreck havoc on our social services, schools, and hospitals," he added.

The shift in policy is geared toward enhanced security, safer streets and a reduction in insurance premiums for all New York drivers by an anticipated $120 million a year, said David Swarts, New York's Motor Vehicles Commissioner.

AAA found that unlicensed drivers are more than five times more likely to be involved in car accidents, Swarts noted.

Michael Balboni, New York's homeland security head, said that the new system actually improves security because it creates public records that can be accessed by law enforcement and others to ensure true identities.

I am just curious of everyone's view on this issue. Currently in New Jersey, they have this "six point" deal which means in order to update anything on your license, renew it, or to get one in general you need to provide things such as birth certificates, social security cards, passports, bank statments, ect to prove you are a legal resident....each piece of "evidence" is allocated a point number....your license only counts as one, so does most everything else. I have had to deal with this two times so far and its highly frustrating. I can only imagine if the rules changed to only include needing a vaild passport.....I think a lot of people would be annoyed.

[ThurmanMunster]

illegal immigrants....get the fuck out.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='559200' date='Sep 29 2007, 02:55 AM']illegal immigrants....get the fuck out.[/quote]


Yep. Except the ones working at Chipotle. They can stay.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='559200' date='Sep 29 2007, 02:55 AM']illegal immigrants....get the fuck out.[/quote]

Great post.

I don't suppose you actually read the issue at hand here, or perhaps your critical thinking skills are still in an embryonic stage; either way, it seems a meaningful reply showing evidence of thought won't really get through to you, so I'll answer in kind:

Maybe beautiful irony will prevail and you'll get run over by an immigrant with no formal knowledge of US road laws and no insurance. Who knows how likely this is...but I'll be watching the news just in case.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='559361' date='Sep 29 2007, 03:10 PM']Great post.

I don't suppose you actually read the issue at hand here, or perhaps your critical thinking skills are still in an embryonic stage; either way, it seems a meaningful reply showing evidence of thought won't really get through to you, so I'll answer in kind:

Maybe beautiful irony will prevail and you'll get run over by an immigrant with no formal knowledge of US road laws and no insurance. Who knows how likely this is...but I'll be watching the news just in case.[/quote]


I read the "issue at hand" and I don't think my "critical thinking skills are still in an embryonic stage". Some things boil down to the simplest truth. They are here illegally. Allowing them to get driver's licenses tells them it's ok that they're here illegally. It's not ok.

As Thurman said, they should get the fuck out.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='559368' date='Sep 29 2007, 04:23 PM']I read the "issue at hand" and I don't think my "critical thinking skills are still in an embryonic stage". Some things boil down to the simplest truth. They are here illegally. Allowing them to get driver's licenses tells them it's ok that they're here illegally. It's not ok.

As Thurman said, they should get the fuck out.[/quote]

They pay taxes more regularly than US Americans. The notion that they are a drain on social services is not true. Whenever your proposed solution is that they 'get the fuck out,' you are oversimplifying, no matter how much you've thought about it. Regardless of whether that's what they "should" do, it could never be a feasible solution.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='559376' date='Sep 29 2007, 04:59 PM']They pay taxes more regularly than US Americans. The notion that they are a drain on social services is not true. Whenever your proposed solution is that they 'get the fuck out,' you are oversimplifying, no matter how much you've thought about it. Regardless of whether that's what they "should" do, it could never be a feasible solution.[/quote]

None of that matters. I don't care if it's the Swedish bikini team and they're giving free blowjobs to Bengal fans every Tuesday. If they are here illegally, get the fuck out.

While that may not be a feasible solution, it's a better approach than legitimizing them with driver's licenses. There are good reasons for immigration laws. The fact that we barely enforce them is the problem. We should strengthen enforcement, not weaken it, as this would do.

[STRAYCAT]

Someones tune would change if they or a close one got raped,robbed,had a car accident with one of them and nothing was done to them or they got away with it.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='559376' date='Sep 29 2007, 02:59 PM'][b]They pay taxes more regularly than US Americans[/b]. The notion that they are a drain on social services is not true. Whenever your proposed solution is that they 'get the fuck out,' you are oversimplifying, no matter how much you've thought about it. Regardless of whether that's what they "should" do, it could never be a feasible solution.[/quote]
How is that even possible? MOST Americans that work have taxes automatically deducted from their paychecks! MANY illegals, for fear of discovery, don't or can't work or get those kinds of jobs where's there's a legitimate payroll system, because they would have to fill out a W-4, I-9 and PROVE that they are eligible to work in the USA! That's precisely why they work as landscapers, fruit pickers, etc, because they can get paid "under the table".

I understand that this "After 9/11..." shit that gets attatched to illegals and the lack of enforcement is completely overblown. Most illegals (Mexians, central Americans) aren't terrorist (although there are certainly lots of drugs coming across the border), but they are simply here to make more money than they can in their impoverished nations. That's fine, I can respect that, but it doesn't change the fact that they are illegally here, and need to be documented somehow.

This is another of those slippery slope issues, too. On the one hand, giving them driver's licenses makes them "documented" and therefore, trackable within our society.

On the other hand, this may also open up another can of worms that will empower those that support amnesty measures for illegals that could potentially blow up in our faces.

I don't know. I guess I'm not in favor of this measure simply because it legitimizes that which isn't legitimate to begin with, even if it affords a slight ability to monitor these people.

I suppose I could have just said "get the fuck out" too, but that isn't feasible either. Believe it or not, our economy needs these people, especially on the agrarian end.

Just let them come illegally, if they get caught, deport them, I guess.

Blow my leaves, Chico!

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='559406' date='Sep 29 2007, 07:23 PM']How is that even possible? MOST Americans that work have taxes automatically deducted from their paychecks! MANY illegals, for fear of discovery, don't or can't work or get those kinds of jobs where's there's a legitimate payroll system, because they would have to fill out a W-4, I-9 and PROVE that they are eligible to work in the USA! That's precisely why they work as landscapers, fruit pickers, etc, because they can get paid "under the table".

I understand that this "After 9/11..." shit that gets attatched to illegals and the lack of enforcement is completely overblown. Most illegals (Mexians, central Americans) aren't terrorist (although there are certainly lots of drugs coming across the border), but they are simply here to make more money than they can in their impoverished nations. That's fine, I can respect that, but it doesn't change the fact that they are illegally here, and need to be documented somehow.

This is another of those slippery slope issues, too. On the one hand, giving them driver's licenses makes them "documented" and therefore, trackable within our society.

On the other hand, this may also open up another can of worms that will empower those that support amnesty measures for illegals that could potentially blow up in our faces.

I don't know. I guess I'm not in favor of this measure simply because it legitimizes that which isn't legitimate to begin with, even if it affords a slight ability to monitor these people.

I suppose I could have just said "get the fuck out" too, but that isn't feasible either. Believe it or not, our economy needs these people, especially on the agrarian end.

Just let them come illegally, if they get caught, deport them, I guess.

Blow my leaves, Chico!

[/quote]


If they want to be here that bad, and if our economy needs them that bad, make them and their employers do it legally.

I don't think our economy needs them. Our economy would be different without them, but in a lot of ways better. What they provide is cheap labor for dirty jobs. While that's good for the business owner, and helps keep some of our costs down, it perpetuates itself. Jobs like construction, and roofing used to be very good paying jobs. Americans could raise a family with those kinds of jobs. The influx of cheap labor has made many of those jobs pay much less, which makes fewer people want to do them, which makes more jobs available for the illegals. Illegals are getting paid under the table, which means they aren't paying taxes.

So a job that used to pay an American a good wage, of which he paid a lot in taxes, now pays an illegal a crappy wage, of which he doesn't pay taxes. Plus the American without a job often has to get government assistance, further draining the economy. Now things like agricultural migrant workers are different, but even they need to be documented and taxed through work visas or whatever.

Common sense just says you don't give driver's licenses to someone who shouldn't even be here.

[Go Tory Go!]

Thank you for your replies, everyone. I've had a great time reading them. As a treat for you, if you continue reading, I will propose the blueprint of what I believe is the start to a feasible solution, which you can then dissect as a continuation of the discussion. What progress - from "Get the fuck out!" to meaningful and critical debate - that would be for this thread!

A huge number of illegal immigrants have payroll taxes deducted from their checks just like everyone else; they show an ID card (a fake/duplicate, usually) and their taxes are filed under that I-10 number (or a bad SSN if they purchased that) instead of the usual Social Security Number. Thereafter, the only difference between their taxes and yours is that they will never collect a cent from Social Security or Medicare. Thus, the illegal immigrants provide the Social Security system with a $7 Billion (and rising) subsidy every year. Not that I expect to get anything back from Social Security when the time comes either; but I digress. The reason I say "a huge number" instead of something like 'the majority' or 'the vast majority of earnings' is because of the numerical uncertainties inherent in a discussion of undocumented subjects; what is clear, however, is a figure of $7Bn of surplus from an estimated $7Mil workers. Tax returns are also filed to limit suspicion and avoid raising flags due to taxing discrepancies; all the funds with bad numbers end up in the 'suspicion file,' which, again, helps to bolster the budget. "Under the table" payouts are less frequent than I think you'd imagine - even among agrarian jobs, many are hired on as laborers by the above system; the alternative to this, frequently along the lines of 'the bus will pick people up here at 6am, take you to the fields, and return you at dusk with cash in hand,' is used by many citizens in the South as well, and regardless is the employer's problem, not the employee. In general, though, I think the amount of under the table work is overestimated in the nation's psyche.

If you have problems with the impact of current trends in the economy - free trade, outsourcing, etc - join the club. These sad facts have an even greater influence on unemployment and wage levels in this country, and trace back to Washington, not Tijuana.

As far as punishment for illegal aliens, any deportation scheme (or variation on 'Get the fuck out') will never fly, due to the integration of immigrants into societal fabric. The best punishment you'll be able to muster is a fine or maybe some community service on the part of those who are allowed to come out of the shadows and become documented aliens, on the road to naturalization if they wish.

Also, an easy way to curb illegal immigration is to hold their source of income in check. Presently, this is a joke, because employers simply need to have seen a set of documents - real / fake, what do they care? - to employ someone. I would propose that a verification system be implemented via the internet, whereby employers would be required to check the validity of their documents against national records in, let's say, the first week of a new hire. This, with stiffer penalties for employers found in violation, would bring accountability back into the process.

Believe me - I know how good it feels to say "Get the fuck out!" In fact, I said that this very morning, to ThurmanMunster's mother. I do hope, however, that this thread is beyond another mention of this phrase.

[rudi32]

,,,,,,

[rudi32]

maybe I can give a point of view that I have developed from my work.

One problem that arrises a lot is that all of the illegals have no valid drivers license, and no car insurance. I investigate many hit and runs, some deadly, where the individual does not have insure. See in mexico, it is not required by law to have car insurance. its a luxury that most dont have. so that carries over here.

Let me tell you, your opinion will change if u get into a collision with an illegal, they wont have insurance, and you will have to fit the bill. You cant sue them, they are illegal, they have nothing, most rent and deal in cash. so it falls back on to your own insurance to pay for the damages, and your insurance rates go up because of an no fault accident. I know this from first hand experience and the fact that I work about 2 accidents a day.

The second point, someone stated that they get fake soc numbers and pay into the system. some do, but the drain on the system is more than they put in.

They are here illegally, dont have insurance, get sick go to hospital, who pays the bill? we do. they dont have health insurance. They ones that get the fake soc and work at the resturants are making 5 bucks an hour. they pay little ito the system, most work construction and get paid in cash.

[ScarletKnight]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='559505' date='Sep 30 2007, 01:13 AM']Thank you for your replies, everyone. I've had a great time reading them. As a treat for you, if you continue reading, I will propose the blueprint of what I believe is the start to a feasible solution, which you can then dissect as a continuation of the discussion. What progress - from "Get the fuck out!" to meaningful and critical debate - that would be for this thread!

A huge number of illegal immigrants have payroll taxes deducted from their checks just like everyone else; they show an ID card (a fake/duplicate, usually) and their taxes are filed under that I-10 number (or a bad SSN if they purchased that) instead of the usual Social Security Number. Thereafter, the only difference between their taxes and yours is that they will never collect a cent from Social Security or Medicare. Thus, the illegal immigrants provide the Social Security system with a $7 Billion (and rising) subsidy every year. Not that I expect to get anything back from Social Security when the time comes either; but I digress. The reason I say "a huge number" instead of something like 'the majority' or 'the vast majority of earnings' is because of the numerical uncertainties inherent in a discussion of undocumented subjects; what is clear, however, is a figure of $7Bn of surplus from an estimated $7Mil workers. Tax returns are also filed to limit suspicion and avoid raising flags due to taxing discrepancies; all the funds with bad numbers end up in the 'suspicion file,' which, again, helps to bolster the budget. "Under the table" payouts are less frequent than I think you'd imagine - even among agrarian jobs, many are hired on as laborers by the above system; the alternative to this, frequently along the lines of 'the bus will pick people up here at 6am, take you to the fields, and return you at dusk with cash in hand,' is used by many citizens in the South as well, and regardless is the employer's problem, not the employee. In general, though, I think the amount of under the table work is overestimated in the nation's psyche.

If you have problems with the impact of current trends in the economy - free trade, outsourcing, etc - join the club. These sad facts have an even greater influence on unemployment and wage levels in this country, and trace back to Washington, not Tijuana.

As far as punishment for illegal aliens, any deportation scheme (or variation on 'Get the fuck out') will never fly, due to the integration of immigrants into societal fabric. The best punishment you'll be able to muster is a fine or maybe some community service on the part of those who are allowed to come out of the shadows and become documented aliens, on the road to naturalization if they wish.

Also, an easy way to curb illegal immigration is to hold their source of income in check. Presently, this is a joke, because employers simply need to have seen a set of documents - real / fake, what do they care? - to employ someone. I would propose that a verification system be implemented via the internet, whereby employers would be required to check the validity of their documents against national records in, let's say, the first week of a new hire. This, with stiffer penalties for employers found in violation, would bring accountability back into the process.

Believe me - I know how good it feels to say "Get the fuck out!" In fact, I said that this very morning, to ThurmanMunster's mother. I do hope, however, that this thread is beyond another mention of this phrase.[/quote]


The only discrepency I see is that people who do the legal thing to get into this country do not have it as easy as those who do so illegally. Why should it be easier for those who are here illegally to have their health care paid for, ect ect? If you can't be deported from the country, if you can get a drivers license, if you can do all of these things, then what is the loss in trying to do so? There is none, there is nothing but incentive.

I think the biggest problem with this is the fact that illegal immigrants will work for nearly nothing and thus jobs such as physical labor now pay nearly nothing. This is really a cycle of exploitation on the employers part that affects jobs for American's as well, because they can't live off of such wages. Yes there is the excuse that the illegal immigrants do the work that Americans do not want, but I see no evidence of that.....yes americans are willing to work as landscapers, yes they are willing to roof houses, yes they are willing to work in factories, yes they are willing to do a lot of things, they are just not willing to be paid 5 dollars an hour to do so. What about requiring a minimum wage for such work which would not allow employers to do what they are doing and in turn would open up opportunites for both the illegal immigrants to get paid well, and for americans to be able to apply for jobs that have been lost to them?

P.S. Most arguments about the US collecting tons of taxes are just reproduced over and over and over again along with most other arguments, but I never hear any claims made based on factual evidence. I do not like hearing the same old things over and over especially since they are reasonings that are attempts to justify what is happening instead of correcting it. There has to be some sort of compromise that benefits everyone.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='rudi32' post='559868' date='Sep 30 2007, 08:27 PM']The second point, someone stated that they get fake soc numbers and pay into the system. some do, but the drain on the system is more than they put in.

They are here illegally, dont have insurance, get sick go to hospital, who pays the bill? we do. they dont have health insurance. They ones that get the fake soc and work at the resturants are making 5 bucks an hour. they pay little ito the system, most work construction and get paid in cash.[/quote]

Your points on getting into accidents with illegals are well-taken; I know several people who have gotten into such problems, and in each case the person handed over some cash and then was off.

As far as the drain on the healthcare system...the illegals produce the same drain as any Americans without insurance; thus, your complaint is valid, but is more an issue with the state of our healthcare system than an immigration one. I'd actually argue that uninsured Americans are a bigger drain, per capita at least, since the illegals are contributing $7 Billion a year which they, unlike uninsured citizens, won't collect.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='559909' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:53 PM']P.S. Most arguments about the US collecting tons of taxes are just reproduced over and over and over again along with most other arguments, but I never hear any claims made based on factual evidence. I do not like hearing the same old things over and over especially since they are reasonings that are attempts to justify what is happening instead of correcting it. There has to be some sort of compromise that benefits everyone.[/quote]

The amount payed into the IRS "Suspicion File" under bad ID #'s is factual evidence; I reference this figure only to suggest that the 'financial drain' argument against illegals is not nearly as relevant as it's normally made out to be.

I also agree with your assessment that a compromise must be established, and no perfect solution exists. As a wise man once said, "you go to war with the army you have." The status quo is clearly not acceptable; but, since we're already in a bit of a mess, I think it's best for the country to 'cut its losses' by allowing those already here to stay, with a fine and community service of course - this is one way immigrants who came over legally can be favored. The flipside of the compromise would entail stiffer penalties and regulation of employers. This is the only way to address the wage decline you describe. I don't see enhanced border security as a solution, because those who are caught are turned away so they can try again the next day.

[ShaGs_McNasty]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='559200' date='Sep 29 2007, 02:55 AM']illegal immigrants....get the fuck out.[/quote]


[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/AgentShags/stuff/illegals.jpg[/img]

[Bean Counter]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='559376' date='Sep 29 2007, 04:59 PM']They pay taxes more regularly than US Americans. The notion that they are a drain on social services is not true. Whenever your proposed solution is that they 'get the fuck out,' you are oversimplifying, no matter how much you've thought about it. Regardless of whether that's what they "should" do, it could never be a feasible solution.[/quote]

Ummm I am just an [b]accountant[/b] so I don't know a whole lot about taxes, but how exactly do they pay taxes more regularly than Americans when they don't even have a SSN?

Your arguement abou tthe fake SSN payouts is completely without merit because you average illegal immigrant is paid on a cash basis and recorded in the books typicaly as an other expense item that actually creates a bit of a tax break for the business.