bammorrisgotmehigh Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='702358' date='Sep 18 2008, 12:00 PM']Thanks Frankie, offt knows this too he's just being stupid and trying to get me to say Ben > Carson (which isnt going to happen). Difference also is Ben is a bit more mobile than Carson so he can extend plays that Carson maybe couldnt.[/quote] I think we need to break down the Skills needed to be a QB and then decide who is better at what. Jaimie already said Ben is more mobile so Ben wins that one. Arm Strength Pocket Presence Leadership Reading Defenses Clutchness Who wins those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Arm strength goes to carson Pocket pressence is a hard to measure, Carson isnt as mobile so he doesnt run unless he has to and he also puts trust in his wrs and line more than ben has to. Leadership, how do we measure this? I mean Carson doesnt wine about his injuries in public, can we use that as the measure? Reading D's, well when the Oline is running like it should our O is dangerous, that really shouldnt even be up for debate, so how do we measure that? Clutchness - this is such a silly one, because it comes down to who is responsible for the win/loss. We've had a bad D for a while who has lost us a lot of games. You guys only weakness is your Oline, we have a number of question marks, so Carson really hasnt had as much of a complete team around him that Ben has. They are different type of QBs, Carson is more the Marino and Ben the Elway. So when arguing about who was better Dan or John, well Dan never had a running game ever and untill John got TD he wasnt winning superbowls either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Coincidentally.....here is some more casual reading for ya (with some notable quotes) [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3594747&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1"]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?i...mp;lid=tab2pos1[/url] [b]Big Ben the NFL's heir apparent to Brady and Manning[/b] Who would you want running your team right now? "I rank Roethlisberger first, though, because I believe [b]the Steelers win because of him[/b], while the Giants too often win despite Manning. Eli doesn't have Big Ben's proven track record over the long haul. I love the command Roethlisberger has over his offense. [b]He's a leader on the field [/b]and a respected voice in the locker room. He's smart, mobile enough, has great size and a solid arm and shows excellent creativity and the ability to make all the throws. [b]Total package. Roethlisberger is a winner whom any team could build around[/b]." "I would want Roethlisberger because he [b]finds a way to orchestrate a drive to win the game when it's needed[/b]. Plus, his determination translates to his teammates, and he wills them to win. All these quarterbacks have physical skills, but Roethlisberger does the [b]best job of leading his team to victory[/b]." "Big Ben is the guy I would want running the show. He is a big, strong quarterback who can make all the throws and takes care of the ball. He usually [b]performs well in big games [/b]and rarely loses a contest for the Steelers. Roethlisberger is [b]very accurate[/b] and is having an excellent season thus far with a QB rating of 136.3. For a big man, Roethlisberger can move or elude in the pocket and is tough to bring down, which enables him to improvise downfield. He has [b]great vision and poise in the pocket[/b], which allows him to be an [b]excellent decision-maker[/b]. Most importantly, he has the best proven record over his five-year career compared to the rest of the group." "Roethlisberger, and by a substantial margin. The other four are excellent young quarterbacks, but when comparing each player's overall body of work, none comes close to Roethlisberger's. He is the only one who has not only achieved, but sustained, excellence. And he continues to get better as Steelers coach Mike Tomlin puts more responsibility on his shoulders. He takes too many sacks -- and probably always will -- but by holding on to the ball Roethlisberger also converts downfield plays with astonishing frequency. At worst he ranks second, behind Cutler, in terms of physical abilities. [b]In terms of playmaking skills, he's tops[/b]. Most impressive is Big Ben's winning percentage -- and his Super Bowl ring. More could be on the way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='702387' date='Sep 18 2008, 12:44 PM']Arm strength goes to carson Pocket pressence is a hard to measure, Carson isnt as mobile so he doesnt run unless he has to and he also puts trust in his wrs and line more than ben has to. Leadership, how do we measure this? I mean Carson doesnt wine about his injuries in public, can we use that as the measure? Reading D's, well when the Oline is running like it should our O is dangerous, that really shouldnt even be up for debate, so how do we measure that? Clutchness - this is such a silly one, because it comes down to who is responsible for the win/loss. We've had a bad D for a while who has lost us a lot of games. You guys only weakness is your Oline, we have a number of question marks, so Carson really hasnt had as much of a complete team around him that Ben has. They are different type of QBs, Carson is more the Marino and Ben the Elway. So when arguing about who was better Dan or John, well Dan never had a running game ever and untill John got TD he wasnt winning superbowls either.[/quote] So, I am guessing all of the "how do we measure that" categories are ones that you realize Ben wins. To debate the points above. Arm Strength: From the article above: "Arm strength may be the most overrated factor in quarterback evaluation,". Accuracy and good decision making are far more important than how hard/far you can throw the ball. I will agree that Palmer has a stronger arm than Ben. Pocket presence: Despite your argument, pocket presence had nothing to do with mobility or speed. Brady has great pocket presence and he couldnt outrun my grandmother. Pocket presence is knowing when to get rid of the ball, when to step into the pocket, in short knowing where the pressure is coming from without having to look. Now, if you say that Carson takes this category then you have probably eaten too many paint chips. Reading D's: Again, despite your argument, reading defense has NOTHING TO DO with your offensive line. It has to do with pre-snap reads...knowing which players are going to blitz, which are going to drop into coverage, where the holes in a zone are going to be, etc. All of that happens BEFORE you snap the ball...so tell me, what the hell does a bad O-line have to do with that? Leadership: Laughable. Ben is a leader. Carson is not. Debate it all you want. Clutchness: Doesnt matter who is "responsible for a loss", as a matter of fact it doesnt really matter if the team wins or loses. It matters how the player performs when pressure is on...3rd and long, playing through injury and pain, down in the 4th quarter, big games, etc. Would you care to compare? Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='702358' date='Sep 18 2008, 11:00 AM']Thanks Frankie, offt knows this too he's just being stupid and trying to get me to say Ben > Carson (which isnt going to happen). Difference also is Ben is a bit more mobile than Carson so he can extend plays that Carson maybe couldnt.[/quote] I'm being stupid? Yet, you think mobility is the only way to overcome a bad O-line. Quick decisions, reading defenses, pocket awareness, changing plays at the line to get favorable matchups....all of these things can help overcome a bad O-line. Oh...and you'll say it someday...the rest of the world has caught on...you will too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='702578' date='Sep 19 2008, 08:40 AM']So, I am guessing all of the "how do we measure that" categories are ones that you realize Ben wins. To debate the points above. Arm Strength: From the article above: "Arm strength may be the most overrated factor in quarterback evaluation,". Accuracy and good decision making are far more important than how hard/far you can throw the ball. I will agree that Palmer has a stronger arm than Ben. Pocket presence: Despite your argument, pocket presence had nothing to do with mobility or speed. Brady has great pocket presence and he couldnt outrun my grandmother. Pocket presence is knowing when to get rid of the ball, when to step into the pocket, in short knowing where the pressure is coming from without having to look. Now, if you say that Carson takes this category then you have probably eaten too many paint chips. Reading D's: Again, despite your argument, reading defense has NOTHING TO DO with your offensive line. It has to do with pre-snap reads...knowing which players are going to blitz, which are going to drop into coverage, where the holes in a zone are going to be, etc. All of that happens BEFORE you snap the ball...so tell me, what the hell does a bad O-line have to do with that? Leadership: Laughable. Ben is a leader. Carson is not. Debate it all you want. Clutchness: Doesnt matter who is "responsible for a loss", as a matter of fact it doesnt really matter if the team wins or loses. It matters how the player performs when pressure is on...3rd and long, playing through injury and pain, down in the 4th quarter, big games, etc. Would you care to compare? Probably not.[/quote] No it doesnt, i made my case your simply as usual wrong. [quote name='oftt4' post='702580' date='Sep 19 2008, 08:48 AM']I'm being stupid? Yet, you think mobility is the only way to overcome a bad O-line. Quick decisions, reading defenses, pocket awareness, changing plays at the line to get favorable matchups....all of these things can help overcome a bad O-line. Oh...and you'll say it someday...the rest of the world has caught on...you will too.[/quote] The most important position on Oline is center and blind side tackel. There is a reason the first ever draft pick of the bengals was a center. If you watch these games (which is obvious you dont) you would see our Center isnt good. If your line collapses at the point that your QB is supposed to get the ball and be able to take some steps back NOTHING matters. Because you dont have time to let routes develop or holes open for the running game. Our O has struggled since Braham retired and Guicheck has played, there is ZERO coinicdence in that. The problem is that we've had so many other needs as well that the center position coulnt attuqualy be addressed. So no your wrong, its not going to get said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 98.9 > 50.6 "That is all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bammorrisgotmehigh Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='704047' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:42 PM']98.9 > 50.6 "That is all." [/quote] [b]"when your oline isnt blocking for your QB your rating isnt going to mean much"[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='704067' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:24 PM'][b]"when your oline isnt blocking for your QB your rating isnt going to mean much"[/b][/quote] yeah i saw he was getting beat up that was mostly for oftt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bammorrisgotmehigh Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='704070' date='Sep 21 2008, 09:28 PM']yeah i saw he was getting beat up that was mostly for oftt [/quote] Good God, I'll admit he is a drama queen but he is the Fucking franchise and what they have allowed the O-line to become is pathetic. He gets killed every freaking game. Even the games we win he takes so much punishment. Not sure how good Baltimore is. I would think we could win against them next week with it being Flacco on the road/Monday night and all that. After that we should be back in first place but you know that the Murderer and his thugs will put a pounding on him with our O-line. Colon has the perfect last name since he plays like he is full of shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wek.jrhwa.kejfnhawerjgknhr.ndsf.kjnhdsfk.jh :steamed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted September 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='704047' date='Sep 21 2008, 07:42 PM']98.9 > 50.6 "That is all." [/quote] I expected this. I will counter with 98.6 > 63.8 AND 92.7 > 89.0 But seriously, yes the Oline played like ass, yes the playcalling was questionable.... and NO Ben did not play well. Especially on the INT, he forced it into double coverage when he finally got some time to throw...bad decision, bad throw. See? That is what it is like to have a firm grip on reality. I can admit when Ben hurts his team....you on the other hand...well, you know. [quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='704078' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:47 PM']Good God, I'll admit he is a drama queen but he is the Fucking franchise and what they have allowed the O-line to become is pathetic. He gets killed every freaking game. Even the games we win he takes so much punishment. Not sure how good Baltimore is. I would think we could win against them next week with it being Flacco on the road/Monday night and all that. After that we should be back in first place but you know that the Murderer and his thugs will put a pounding on him with our O-line. Colon has the perfect last name since he plays like he is full of shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wek.jrhwa.kejfnhawerjgknhr.ndsf.kjnhdsfk.jh :steamed:[/quote] It will probably end up coming down to which QB gets killed first. I like our chances though. Great D vs Great D, should come down to who has the better offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='704375' date='Sep 22 2008, 03:24 PM'] I expected this. I will counter with 98.6 > 63.8 AND 92.7 > 89.0 But seriously, yes the Oline played like ass, yes the playcalling was questionable.... and NO Ben did not play well. Especially on the INT, he forced it into double coverage when he finally got some time to throw...bad decision, bad throw. See? That is what it is like to have a firm grip on reality. I can admit when Ben hurts his team....you on the other hand...well, you know. It will probably end up coming down to which QB gets killed first. I like our chances though. Great D vs Great D, should come down to who has the better offense.[/quote] I can admit when it is Carson, but its almost always not. There were times last year he over threw his WRs, that is Carson to a small extent, and to a large extent its his oline protection not allowing him to get his feet set correctly, because when he is given time he's proven how dangerous of a QB he is. Of all the issues this team has, Carson is about the very last one, thats just not something you'd ever admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted September 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='704377' date='Sep 22 2008, 03:28 PM']I can admit when it is Carson, but its almost always not. There were times last year he over threw his WRs, that is Carson to a small extent, and to a large extent its his oline protection not allowing him to get his feet set correctly, because when he is given time he's proven how dangerous of a QB he is. Of all the issues this team has, Carson is about the very last one, thats just not something you'd ever admit.[/quote] Thank you for providing such a perfect example for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='704381' date='Sep 22 2008, 03:33 PM']Thank you for providing such a perfect example for me.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 100.6 > 80.8. That is not all. Do you still think Ben is a game manager? By the way, your boys gave Dallas a hell of a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='710085' date='Oct 6 2008, 08:02 AM']100.6 > 80.8. That is not all. Do you still think Ben is a game manager? By the way, your boys gave Dallas a hell of a game.[/quote] I think that Bens legs give him the ability to scramble and extend plays that Carson isnt able to do, and untill our horrible Oline is playing like they did in '05, (they have played well in spurts, but thats not enough) were gonna be what we are. Fuckin Chris Perry butter hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 hey steeler fan. i still hate you, but im not dumb enough not to admit it (sorry Jamie) yes, Roethlisberger is better than Carson. and i would take your QB over ours. plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' post='710182' date='Oct 6 2008, 11:55 AM']hey steeler fan. i still hate you, but im not dumb enough not to admit it (sorry Jamie) yes, Roethlisberger is better than Carson. and i would take your QB over ours. plain and simple.[/quote] rumble you know your my boy but dude... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Slowly....they are being assimilated....(evil laugh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='710281' date='Oct 6 2008, 03:51 PM']Slowly....they are being assimilated....(evil laugh)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted October 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 [url="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/11011174/2"]http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/11011174/2[/url] "In his fifth season, Roethlisberger is now an elite quarterback. There's no arguing that anymore." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 LOL - Prisco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted October 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='710642' date='Oct 7 2008, 01:18 PM']LOL - Prisco[/quote] Just out of curiousity, is there a single writer/agency out there who's opinion you wont dismiss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='oftt4' post='710901' date='Oct 8 2008, 07:00 AM']Just out of curiousity, is there a single writer/agency out there who's opinion you wont dismiss?[/quote] Jaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oftt4 Posted October 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='710909' date='Oct 8 2008, 07:30 AM']Jaws[/quote] Alright sir. Didnt Jaws say that Palmer "is no longer an elite quarterback"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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