#22 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='778925' date='May 27 2009, 09:55 AM']I can't speak for others but I know a woman that had a miscarriage and she and her husband celebrated a birthday everyday on the baby's projected delivery date. She'd cry at all the other kids birthday parties, etc. it was a very hard situation for her... anything that reminded her of her miscarried child would cause these feelings of loss. Just my .02.[/quote] Yeah, that's really fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='777091' date='May 18 2009, 03:34 PM']Interesting. Some of those groups are moving up or down large percentages over two years, seems like people are constantly changing their mind. That second graph seems most telling though, with the majority under the "sometimes legal" camp. Anyone here in the "legal under all circumstances" category? I support abortion, but I can't justify aborting an 8 month pregnancy or any fetus thats reached the age of viability for that matter.[/quote] imo you should be able to abort up until the point that the fetus would survive birth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccartman2 Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='778806' date='May 26 2009, 02:59 PM']Thats right, my bad, she forgets....as soon as its out and given up, she never thinks of it again. I heard an interesting observation over the weekend. Would anyone say there is a difference between the mourning a family goes through when their 8 month old child dies vs when the mother has a miscarriage at 3 months? How often do people have burials and funerals and memorials and ceremonies for dead infants vs miscarriages? I think this is an indirect way to gauge how people truly feel about abortions. If it is such a terrible thing to destroy a fetus' life, if this is in direct opposition to how we are supposed to love and feel for human life at this stage...shouldn't there be a lot more mourning? I'm in no way suggesting that a mother who miscarries doesn't mourn...but our cultural practices for mourning the born seem far greater than for mourning the un-born and since most people on the pro-life side treat them the same when they talk, shouldn't they treat them the same in practice? I could be way off base here, but the discussion in which I heard this, no one had heard of any instance of ceremonial mourning for the un-born, let alone widespread practice that would match the numbers of miscarriages in the world.[/quote] Since my wife and I have had a miscarriage, I can tell you it is a very painful thing to go through if you actually want kids. We most certainly did mourn the lose of that child, and the little pair of boxing gloves we bought for it when we found out still hang from the rear view mirror of my car to serve a reminder of the child we lost. Obviously, we didn't go trough the process of a memorial service or a mock burial, because there just wasnt' anything for that. Still to me, it didn't lessen the loss at all. And while we don't do any thing special for it, my wife remembers the day we found out she was pregnant, the day we lost the child, and it's due date. At any rate, one could argue that things such as viewings and funerals are a bit overdone anyway, for the purpose of making money. I've never gotten the point myself, but suit yourself. Now I will say, if we lost our daughter the pain would be worse. We've gotten to know her and love her and the absense would be difficult to deal with. As for the topic at hand, it is my belief that life begins at conception. Here is webster's definition of life: c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life"]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life[/url] I chose c because that is the one that closely matches what we are talking about. So let's go through the caracteristics they deem necessary for live: 1. Metabolism - yeah, they use energy. First from hormones and then eventually from the placenta. With out either, at any time, the baby will die. 2. Growth - As soon as the sperm and egg meet, they form a single cell and immediately start multiplying. I'd say that qualifies as growth in my book. 3. Reaction to stimuli - I can't say for sure when they begin to react to anything, but I know they do in the womb. To get our kid to move for kick counts, they had this nice little horn they sounded on the Uterus that 1. raised her heartbeat, and 2 got her moving. So yes, they do, though I can say for certain as to when they start, and I don't anybody can. 4. Reproduction - Somewhere between week 8 and week 10 the baby's reproductive organs will be completely grown. Now they won't really be able to reproduce until the age of 10-12 in most cases, when they start puberty. Of course, this doesn't mean that you can go through killing young kids, because they are technically not alive. They have the tools to do it, just their bodies don't function that way. At any rate, that is my take. I'm sure that hasn't swayed your point but if you are really interested in the time line of an unborn child here is a link for you. It'll go week by week, telling you what is happening inside. [url="http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-2-weeks_6000.bc?intcmp=timeline"]http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy...intcmp=timeline[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='ccartman2' post='782813' date='Jun 29 2009, 03:09 PM']Since my wife and I have had a miscarriage, I can tell you it is a very painful thing to go through if you actually want kids. We most certainly did mourn the lose of that child, and the little pair of boxing gloves we bought for it when we found out still hang from the rear view mirror of my car to serve a reminder of the child we lost. Obviously, we didn't go trough the process of a memorial service or a mock burial, because there just wasnt' anything for that. Still to me, it didn't lessen the loss at all. And while we don't do any thing special for it, my wife remembers the day we found out she was pregnant, the day we lost the child, and it's due date. At any rate, one could argue that things such as viewings and funerals are a bit overdone anyway, for the purpose of making money. I've never gotten the point myself, but suit yourself. Now I will say, if we lost our daughter the pain would be worse. We've gotten to know her and love her and the absense would be difficult to deal with. As for the topic at hand, it is my belief that life begins at conception. Here is webster's definition of life: c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life"]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life[/url] I chose c because that is the one that closely matches what we are talking about. So let's go through the caracteristics they deem necessary for live: 1. Metabolism - yeah, they use energy. First from hormones and then eventually from the placenta. With out either, at any time, the baby will die. 2. Growth - As soon as the sperm and egg meet, they form a single cell and immediately start multiplying. I'd say that qualifies as growth in my book. 3. Reaction to stimuli - I can't say for sure when they begin to react to anything, but I know they do in the womb. To get our kid to move for kick counts, they had this nice little horn they sounded on the Uterus that 1. raised her heartbeat, and 2 got her moving. So yes, they do, though I can say for certain as to when they start, and I don't anybody can. 4. Reproduction - Somewhere between week 8 and week 10 the baby's reproductive organs will be completely grown. Now they won't really be able to reproduce until the age of 10-12 in most cases, when they start puberty. Of course, this doesn't mean that you can go through killing young kids, because they are technically not alive. They have the tools to do it, just their bodies don't function that way. At any rate, that is my take. I'm sure that hasn't swayed your point but if you are really interested in the time line of an unborn child here is a link for you. It'll go week by week, telling you what is happening inside. [url="http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-2-weeks_6000.bc?intcmp=timeline"]http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy...intcmp=timeline[/url][/quote] Sorry to hear about your loss, I never meant to imply that people who mis-carry don't mourn so I hope you didnt take it that way. I agree with you that the fertilized cell is alive and everything after that is alive, so infact "life" does begin at conception. I just don't believe humans begin at conception. The dividing embryo in the first month of life looks and behaves a lot more like cancer than humanity. But somehwere along the gradient between conception and birth, a human is developed. I can't pin-point that spot, but thats where the debate in this country needs to be focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='#22' post='781475' date='Jun 10 2009, 04:41 PM']I absolutely couldn't believe this when I read it: [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090610/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_shooting"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090610/ap_on_...ortion_shooting[/url] you stay classy, pro-lifers.[/quote] Stay classy yourself. The man should be put away or worse.He is no better than those that use abortions as a means of birth control,or those that drop newborns in dumpsters. But you lumping all pro-lifers,which I am one of,in the same category is absolute bullshit.It must be nice to be able to judge so many on the actions of a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccartman2 Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='782827' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:34 PM']Sorry to hear about your loss, I never meant to imply that people who mis-carry don't mourn so I hope you didnt take it that way. I agree with you that the fertilized cell is alive and everything after that is alive, so infact "life" does begin at conception. I just don't believe humans begin at conception. The dividing embryo in the first month of life looks and behaves a lot more like cancer than humanity. But somehwere along the gradient between conception and birth, a human is developed. I can't pin-point that spot, but thats where the debate in this country needs to be focused.[/quote] Thanks and I didn't take it that way, just felt I could add some insight. Just another thought on the mourning issue. My wife really questioned what was wrong with her and questioned what she did to cause the lose. While it's just something that happened, she still felt like a failure. Perhaps for some, it's things like that which makes it a personal situation, which the couple may not want to deal with in a public setting. Just a thought, and may not be the case at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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