First law: Tape trumps Combine-ing info

[EnglishBengal]

[size=6][b]First law: Tape trumps Combine-ing info[/b][/size]

By GEOFF HOBSON
Posted 1 hour ago

[img]http://www.bengals.com/assets/clubimages/articles/2012/sands120120_440.jpg[/img]
[b][url="http://www.bengals.com/team/roster/robert-sands/ec3adc14-1481-42c6-8037-664e018eaa70/"]Robert Sands[/url][/b]

For Robert Sands, football fan, his experience at last year's NFL Scouting Combine was like having a backstage pass at the Oscars or a seat in a late-night green room.

"(Bill) Belichick had his hoodie on. I remember Jack Del Rio had the leather jacket on. And you see Mike Tomlin, he's got his big smile on," Sands reminisced the other day. "I told John Elway I watched him win his first Super Bowl."

If it sounds like Sands takes the 24-7 part of the NFL Network seriously, it's because he does. But with a year to look back on their combine experience, the three days in Indianapolis may have been more like fantasy football than reality TV to Sands and wide receiver [url="http://www.bengals.com/team/roster/ryan-whalen/e84aa0ea-6783-4841-a7a0-9394d3be48cc/"]Ryan Whalen[/url], late-round picks sifted by the Bengals last April.

Sands, a safety who came out of West Virginia early, was disappointed when he went in the fifth round despite his versatile play on a good defense. Whalen, who came in the next round out of Stanford after four seasons in Palo Alto, can't remember talking to the Bengals until receivers coach James Urban called to tell him the Bengals were taking him at No. 167.

So much for the combine having an impact.

"What makes me sick," Bengals linebackers coach Paul Guenther said on Wednesday, "is that you've got a kid that plays in college for three or four seasons, goes to the combine, and runs a slow three-cone drill and suddenly there are whispers about him. That's ridiculous. Look at the tape. Look at what he did on the field for four years."

With the Bengals back in the office this week after the combine ended Tuesday, that's exactly what they're doing. In the end, the tape is what got Sands and Whalen to Cincinnati, and not the data that was spit out in Indianapolis.

Whalen came on late in the season, catching four balls for 27 yards in the last three games and flashed the brains and hands the Bengals think are going to make him a solid receiver that can play all three spots. Sands, active in only one game, showed enough in the preseason and practice to be considered one of the players that can make an impact on the defense this season.

"The one question they kept asking me was about my height. I think that was the question I was asked the most. Being a 6-4 and three quarters guy, they kept asking me if my height was a strength or a negative," Sands said of Indy. "I told them how I thought it was a strength. That I had really good range that I can get to the ball and make tackles in the open field."

[img]http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/CIN/photos/player-headshots/2011/sands_robert--nfl_thumb3_65_90.jpg[/img]
[b]Sands[/b]

The other thing the Bengals pounded him about was the 3-3-5 defense the Mountaineers used. Sands thought that was a good thing because he played all over, including linebacker on third down, and could explain each nuance.

"I think I was able to explain it very well. I knew what was going on in our defense," Sands said. "I knew what teams were trying to do against us. I knew where my corners should be. I knew where my two safeties, including myself, should be, as well as my linebackers.

"I was thinking, 'You're able to see me do that. You're able to see me in the man coverages. You see me dropping back. You see me in the box, you see me doing all those things,' and they still had the questions."

Still, Sands thought he had a good combine. His agent, Drew Rosenhaus, always makes sure his clients are well prepared for Indy and the big thing he emphasizes is not to be nervous during the interviews.

Sands figures he talked to about 20 teams, 12 of them in the 15-minute formal, sit-down setting. The others grabbed him or he grabbed them in the Train Station, the spot near the players hotel where scouts, coaches and prospects can mingle in a controlled environment with a rotation of tables for quicker sessions.

A product of Miami's Carol City High School and a one-parent family, Sands says during the combine he had to fight the Miami stereotype that he was tied up with drugs and gangs and he thinks he was able to refute that with the teams. He was using football to get out. He went to Morgantown to get away and the only things anyone had to ask him about were his three or four speeding tickets.

"I got them coming back from seeing my baby in Sharon, Pa.," Sands said. "Usually I was trying to make it back to practice or school in time."

Guenther, who last year was coaching the safeties, likes to talk to players one-on-one before the formal sit-down. That way he can see if there is any difference in the demeanor and answers when the prospect is in front of the head coach, the coordinator, and the scouts.

"Robert was fine; he can talk football," Guenther says. "I love these kind of late-round guys. The first two rounds, everybody pretty much knows them."

Sands felt comfortable in the Bengals meeting, mainly because head coach Marvin Lewis kept smiling while asking him questions.

"I knew him from watching NFL Films and Total Access (on NFL Network) when they had the mike on him. I knew he was a good guy, very easy to talk to and he's helped a lot of guys in the league," Sands said. "It just seemed like he was a players coach. The players love him. He asked most of the questions and then they put me on the board."

Sands wishes he had tested better. He ran the 40-yard dash in the high 4.5s and his three-cone shuttle was about middle of the pack for safeties at 7.03 seconds, an important test for him because of his attempt to show the scouts his height didn't preclude him from moving his hips and feet.

"I thought when it was time to backpedal I was beyond the 50 when other guys were pulling up," he said. "I did cramp up during the day. I didn’t think Lucas Oil Stadium could get that humid."

Sands thought the latest he would go is the third round, so he was stunned when the call didn't come until the fifth. He thought it was a regional deal.

"If you play in the Big East," he said, "you don’t get much respect."

His size and the fact he came out early and didn't run a big-time 40 probably didn't help, but Guenther didn't have Indy in mind when it came to the pick.

"People are worried about the tall safeties, but I saw the tape and what impressed me was he lined up all over. He played in the box, he pass-rushed, he covered. He's athletic and he did a lot of things," Guenther said. "We talked about him in the fourth and when he was still there, we did it (in the fifth round). We think it was a good pick."

Whalen's case was more cut-and-dried. He had played four years in a pro system with a lot of production (140 catches for 13.5 yards per) and his 40 time (4.6ish) and size (6-1, 202) would drive him out of the top rounds but not off a roster or depth chart.

[img]http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/CIN/photos/player-headshots/2011/whalen_ryan--nfl_thumb3_65_90.jpg[/img]
[b]Whalen[/b]

"All you had to do was read Whalen's bio," Urban said. "I made sure I talked to him at the combine. More than a meet-and-greet and an exchange of information. Probably about 20 minutes. I didn't have to go out to (Stanford) and see him."

The bio included team captain as a senior, the Cardinal's leading receiver as a sophomore and junior, and a science, technology and society major. Whalen can be forgiven he couldn't remember talking to Urban in Indy. He figures he talked to 25 teams and given he didn't have a 15-minute session with any of the teams, it was organized chaos.

"I basically just grabbed anyone from a team and introduced myself and started talking," Whalen said. "Sometimes that would lead to, 'Here's our receivers coach. Talk to him.' You're just trying to leave the impression that you're a good guy, you understand football and it's important to you."

Whalen also let it be known he had interests outside football, such as reading Christian literature and Brad Thor thrillers, and he has just started boar hunting with a high school buddy in the mountains of central coastal California.

"I haven't shot one yet," he said. "But he got one and we skinned it."

Indy wasn't as long of a grind for Whalen as it was for Sands. Since Whalen had already played in the East-West all-star game, he had already taken many of the infinite series of psychological exams and found himself with enough time on his hands to take some catnaps in between the battery of tests that take place the first two days.

Whalen thought he showed some athleticism at the combine that maybe teams didn't think he had (a 38.5-inch vertical jump and 10-foot-3 in the long jump), but he knew that wasn't going to sell him to the pros.

Since he knew he had plenty of time to work on other facets of his game when he went to a team, Whalen restricted his workouts to what he would be asked to do in Indy. So Whalen focused on the generic pass routes of "a slant, an out, a dig, a go, a post corner, and curl," he said.

Plus, he watched tapes of the infamous Gauntlet Drill and did it a few times before arriving in Indy. Each receiver is asked to run through a line of machine-gun passers on each side and catch balls before they catch you.

"It's not tough, but if you haven't done it before it can be hard," Whalen said. "You don't tuck it; you catch it, and drop it and keep moving. You want to practice it a couple of times before you do it. It's not hard in and of itself, but if you go through it for the first time you might not look very smooth."

Truth be told, Whalen probably didn't have to make a catch in The Gauntlet. Urban may have talked to Whalen for about 20 minutes in Indy, but by the time he got done talking to other people about Whalen (Stanford coaches, opposing coaches, teammates, scouts) and watching the tapes of his games, that's about all he needed.

But if last year's combine didn't validate the Whalen pick, this one did. His old quarterback at Stanford was on the floor before his workout last weekend and when he saw Urban, Andrew Luck made a beeline to him.

"I've got to talk to you guys; you've got Whales," Luck told Urban and he proceeded to let him know he got a good player.

"He was very complimentary," Urban said of Luck. "He talked about how he was his roommate on the road and just a solid guy and receiver. Yeah, I think that's what he was telling us."

But Urban knew that even without a three-cone.

[EnglishBengal]

Ryan Whalen is one of my favourite players on the roster right now. He really showed something towards the end of last year. He's not an explosive eye-catching player but he's reliable and always seems to be in the right place at the right time when catching passes (something Simpson still hasn't mastered). The more work you give this guy, the better he will get I feel.

[Bengals1181]

the longterm future of this team is going to be shaped in large part by the development of guys like Sands, Whalen, Boling, Moch, Mays, Cochart, Binns, Hudson and Hawkins. They can either help put the team over the hump, or cause them to keep needing to build depth behind starters.

[texbengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1330625035' post='1101041']the longterm future of this team is going to be shaped in large part by the development of guys like Sands, Whalen, Boling, Moch, Mays, Cochart, Binns, Hudson and Hawkins. They can either help put the team over the hump, or cause them to keep needing to build depth behind starters.[/quote]

Yeah I think the teams that do well over a longer period tend to do well later in the draft, and with UDFAs that contribute. There are a number of them with the Bengals, like Whalen, Boling, Moch, Hawkins, and Cochart that I expect more from in 2012... And I'm hopeful that some of the others you cited also step up.

[texbengal]

[quote name='EnglishBengal' timestamp='1330624549' post='1101038']Ryan Whalen is one of my favourite players on the roster right now. He really showed something towards the end of last year. He's not an explosive eye-catching player but he's reliable and always seems to be in the right place at the right time when catching passes (something Simpson still hasn't mastered). The more work you give this guy, the better he will get I feel.[/quote]

Spot on. I see him being a staple on STs and contributing in multiple receiver sets. I like his reliability, and he's tough, too.

He kinda reminds me of Steve Kreider from the old days, or Kevin Walter (though smaller) more recently - sneaky fast, tough, reliable, versatile... Helps you win games.

[EnglishBengal]

Boling needs to do what Antony Collins did two offseasons ago and add 20 lbs to his frame so he will be become a better at holding the point of attack. He has the tools no question.

[oldschooler]

[b] [size=6]Tape trumps combine for these prospects [/size][/b]

March, 2, 2012

By Kevin Weidl


We've heard a lot of talk in recent days about the prospects who had disappointing performances at the 2012 NFL combine, but the fact of the matter is that some of those showings won't matter much in the eyes of scouts.


Some guys are simply better when they put the pads on than when they are testing in shorts and T-shirts, and in the end it's the game tape that counts most. With that in mind, here are five prospects whose stock won't be affected much by subpar combine performances.

[b]Baylor WR [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/28585/kendall-wright"]Kendall Wright[/url][/b]
Wright (5-foot-10¼, 196 pounds) entered combine week as a first-round prospect, and he remains there despite posting a disappointing time of 4.61 seconds in the 40-yard dash. Scouts are still comfortable with what Wright brings to the table, because on tape he shows good explosiveness off the line and the ability to quickly eat up a defender's cushion, the body control to drop his weight and stop on a dime, and enough speed to stretch the field.

In looking for a recent comparison for Wright, I keep coming back to [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers"]Pittsburgh Steelers[/url] WR Antonio Brown, who is essentially the same size as Wright and ran a 4.57 coming out of Central Michigan in 2010. Brown has become a solid deep threat for the Steelers, and Wright could be the same for the team the drafts him. Those likely to be interested in the first round include the [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/chi/chicago-bears"]Chicago Bears[/url] (No. 19 overall), [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/cle/cleveland-browns"]Cleveland Browns[/url] (No. 22), [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/hou/houston-texans"]Houston Texans[/url] (No. 26), [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sfo/san-francisco-49ers"]San Francisco 49ers[/url] (No. 30) and [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nwe/new-england-patriots"]New England Patriots[/url].


[b]LSU DT [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/28980/michael-brockers"]Michael Brockers[/url] [/b]
Brockers had a poor showing in pretty much every area: 5.36 in the 40; 26.5-inch vertical jump; 8-foot-1 broad jump; 4.81 short shuttle; 7.46 three-cone drill. However, Brockers has impressive natural core strength and power -- as opposed to weight-room strength -- and the tape of his regular-season performance against Alabama is one of the most dominant I saw from a 2012 prospect. The Crimson Tide simply had no answer for him inside.


In this draft, Brockers (6-5, 322) is the most stout defensive tackle at the point of attack. He displays the ability to use his hands to disengage from blocks and fall back into plays, while showing the versatility to play the 3-technique (DT) in a 4-3 scheme or the 5-technique (DE) in a 3-4. His tape is more consistent than the likes of [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/28951/dontari-poe"]Dontari Poe[/url] (Memphis), [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/28009/jerel-worthy"]Jerel Worthy[/url] (Michigan State) and Devon Still (Penn State); based on that, Brockers clearly belongs in the first round. The [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/car/carolina-panthers"]Carolina Panthers[/url] could show interest at No. 9 overall, and if Brockers falls a bit, the [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos"]Denver Broncos[/url] could get a steal at No. 25.


[b]Alabama DE/OLB [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/27437/courtney-upshaw"]Courtney Upshaw[/url][/b]
Based on film study, we knew coming into the combine that Upshaw is not a great athlete, and he confirmed that by looking tight in drills, struggling to open his hips and change directions, and generally not looking smooth in space. However, he's not going to be asked to do those things in the NFL.


At 6-1⅝ and 272 pounds, Upshaw will set the edge against the run with natural leverage, good strength and plenty of smarts and toughness. He'll spot drop on occasion but won't be asked to match up in man coverage, and while he doesn't have elite quickness, his natural leverage and finishing power give him some pass-rush ability. Those qualities show up repeatedly on tape, and you can bet the Patriots, [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/mia/miami-dolphins"]Miami Dolphins[/url] (No. 8), [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ari/arizona-cardinals"]Arizona Cardinals[/url] (No. 13) and [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/bal/baltimore-ravens"]Baltimore Ravens[/url] (No. 29) have all taken notice.


[b]Marshall DE [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/27949/vinny-curry"]Vinny Curry[/url][/b]
Curry (6-3⅛, 266) didn't time well (4.98 40, 4.4 short shuttle, 6.9 three-cone), but he's like Upshaw in that his tape already shows he's not a great athlete. Curry is also tight in space, but he's a solid overall player who wins with strength, power and his motor. His first step is not elite, but he has enough explosiveness to set up speed-to-power moves; he uses his hands well and can set the edge as a run defender. He also flashes the ability to penetrate and get after the passer, and his leadership and character are unquestioned.


Curry reminds me of [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4567/jarret-johnson"]Jarret Johnson[/url] (fourth round, 2003), who has become a valued contributor for the Ravens, and Curry could be a good pickup in the second or third round. The 34th overall pick to the [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ind/indianapolis-colts"]Indianapolis Colts[/url] might be a little rich, but with new head coach Chuck Pagano bringing a new defensive philosophy to Indy, there could be some interest early in the third from the Colts. Otherwise, expect the [url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets"]New York Jets[/url] (No. 48) and the Ravens (No. 52) to have Curry on their radar.


[b]McNeese State S [url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/29023/janzen-jackson"]Janzen Jackson[/url][/b]
Jackson's 4.64 in the 40 doesn't match up with the top-end closing speed we see on tape. He's been a playmaker in the back end throughout his career, and his 2010 film while at Tennessee shows that clearly. Janzen can be seen in the bowl game against North Carolina getting beaten on a double move, then turning and recovering before locating the ball and showing the hands to bring it in. That's a package few defensive backs have.


However, Janzen (5-11½, 188) is in a somewhat different situation than the other players on his list. Several off-field issues led to his dismissal from the Tennessee program, and teams have concerns about whether he will remain stable and focused on football. Janzen clearly has an early-round skill set on tape, and his workout won't change opinions about that. But it remains to be seen how far he falls because of the red flags surrounding his character. If he drops to Day 3, some team in need of secondary help will get a very good value in terms of football skills.




[url="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/blog?name=nfl_draft&id=7638408&_slug_=disappointing-combine-workouts-always-spell-trouble-prospects"]http://insider.espn....ouble-prospects[/url]