Bush declares war on freedom of the press

[Ben]

[url="http://www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/03/bush_declares_war_on_freedom_o.html"]http://www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/0..._freedom_o.html[/url]

[quote]Bush declares war on freedom of the press
March 6, 2006 07:44 AM / The Rant .

By DOUG THOMPSON

Using many of the questionable surveillance and monitoring techniques that brought both questions and criticism to his administration, President George W. Bush has launched a war against reporters who write stories unfavorable to his actions and is planning to prosecute journalists to make examples of them in his "war on terrorism."

Bush recently directed Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to use "whatever means at your disposal" to wiretap, follow, harass and investigate journalists who have published stories about the administration's illegal use of warrantless wiretaps, use of faulty intelligence and anything else he deems "detrimental to the war on terror."

Reporters for The New York Times, which along with Capitol Hill Blue revealed use of the National Security Agency to monitor phone calls and emails of Americans, say FBI agents have interviewed them and criminal prosecutors at the Justice Department admit they are laying "the groundwork for a grand jury that could lead to criminal charges,"

CIA Director Porter Goss told Congress recently that "it is my aim and it is my hope that we will witness a grand jury investigation with reporters present being asked to reveal who is leaking this information. I believe the safety of this nation and the people of this country deserve nothing less."

As part of the investigation, the Justice Department, Department of Homeland Security and the National Security Agency are wiretapping reporters' phones, following journalists on a daily basis, searching their homes and offices under a USA Patriot Act provision that allows "secret and undisclosed searches" and pouring over financial and travel records of hundreds of Washington-based reporters.

Spokesmen for the Justice Department and Department of Homeland Security admit there are "ongoing investigations" regarding publication of stories "involving threats to national security" but will not reveal what those investigations include.

In addition to using the USA Patriot Act to pry into the lives of journalists, the Justice Department has also dusted off a pre-World War I law to prosecute people who receive classified information, although the law was aimed at military personnel not civilians.

"This is the first administration that I can remember, including Nixon's, that said we need to think about a law that would put journalists who print national security things up in front of grand juries and put them in jail if they don't reveal their sources," says David Gergen, who served as President Regan's director of communication and also worked in the Nixon and Ford White Houses.

Political scientist George Harleigh, who worked in the Nixon administration, says such use of federal law enforcement authority was illegal when Nixon tried it and still so today.

"We're talking about a basic violation of the Constitutional guarantee of a free press as well as a violation of the rights of privacy of American citizens," Harleigh says. "I had hoped we would have learned our lessons from the Nixon era. Sadly, it appears we have not."

In recent weeks, the FBI has issued hundreds of "National Security Letters," directing employers, banks, credit card companies, libraries and other entities to turn over records on reporters. Under the USA Patriot Act, those who must turn over the records are also prohibited from revealing they have done so to the subject of the federal probes.

"The significance of this cannot be overstated," says prominent New York litigator Glenn Greenwald. "In essence, while the President sits in the White House undisturbed after proudly announcing that he has been breaking the law and will continue to do so, his slavish political appointees at the Justice Department are using the mammoth law enforcement powers of the federal government to find and criminally prosecute those who brought this illegal conduct to light.

"This flamboyant use of the forces of criminal prosecution to threaten whistle-blowers and intimidate journalists are nothing more than the naked tactics of street thugs and authoritarian juntas."

Just how widespread, and uncontrolled, this latest government assault has become hit close to home last week when one of the FBI's National Security Letters arrived at the company that hosts the servers for this web site, Capitol Hill Blue.

The letter demanded traffic data, payment records and other information about the web site along with information on me, the publisher.

Now that's a problem. I own the company that hosts Capitol Hill Blue. So, in effect, the feds want me to turn over information on myself and not tell myself that I'm doing it. You'd think they'd know better.

I turned the letter over to my lawyer and told him to send the following message to the feds:

Fuck you. Strong letter to follow.[/quote]

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

Impeach the President!!!!

[|Bunghole|]

Underneath all the alarmism, it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226747' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:35 AM']Impeach the President!!!![/quote]
I liked your microwaved Pittsburgh penis story quite a bit, btw. That was the funniest thing I have read in a long, long time. Thanks!

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='226752' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:50 AM']Underneath all the [b]alarmism[/b], it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.[/quote]

You're a great guy, Bung, but I'm wondering, just what kinds of alarms do you require? If this were isolated and somewhat akin to a old-fashioned policial ploy, then it would be disgraceful and dangerous to those who are the targets. But clearly, we are living in a land which now sanctions torture (while those responsible lie about its existence) and in a land which illegally spies on its citizens (while those who are responsible lie about it) and most importantly, we now live in a land which is witnessing strong attempts to codify this sort of behavior into law.

Into law. Which means that anyone, arbitrarily, can be specifically harmed by this stuff and everyone generally is already harmed by this stuff simply because it reflects on our character as citizens. Is this what you and I signed up to defend?

If that does not set off alarms, then what will?

[Guest Bengal_Smoov]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='226752' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:50 AM']Underneath all the alarmism, it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
[b]The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.[/b]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226747' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:35 AM']
Impeach the President!!!![/quote]
I liked your microwaved Pittsburgh penis story quite a bit, btw. That was the funniest thing I have read in a long, long time. Thanks!
[/quote]

No shit, they should take a page from the Japanesse and cut thier guts out for dishonoring the American people and their families.


As for the Pittsburgh penis story , that was the other black guy , even on the internet we all look alike to you huh...

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226803' date='Mar 6 2006, 02:57 PM']As for the Pittsburgh penis story , that was the other black guy , even on the internet we all look alike to you huh... [/quote]

OH MY GAWD!!!!!!!

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='226801' date='Mar 6 2006, 01:55 PM'][quote name='Bunghole' post='226752' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:50 AM']
Underneath all the [b]alarmism[/b], it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.[/quote]

You're a great guy, Bung, but I'm wondering, just what kinds of alarms do you require? If this were isolated and somewhat akin to a old-fashioned policial ploy, then it would be disgraceful and dangerous to those who are the targets. But clearly, we are living in a land which now sanctions torture (while those responsible lie about its existence) and in a land which illegally spies on its citizens (while those who are responsible lie about it) and most importantly, we now live in a land which is witnessing strong attempts to codify this sort of behavior into law.

Into law. Which means that anyone, arbitrarily, can be specifically harmed by this stuff and everyone generally is already harmed by this stuff simply because it reflects on our character as citizens. Is this what you and I signed up to defend?

If that does not set off alarms, then what will?
[/quote]
But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226803' date='Mar 6 2006, 01:57 PM'][quote name='Bunghole' post='226752' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:50 AM']
Underneath all the alarmism, it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
[b]The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.[/b]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226747' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:35 AM']
Impeach the President!!!![/quote]
I liked your microwaved Pittsburgh penis story quite a bit, btw. That was the funniest thing I have read in a long, long time. Thanks!
[/quote]

No shit, they should take a page from the Japanesse and cut thier guts out for dishonoring the American people and their families.


As for the Pittsburgh penis story , that was the other black guy , [b]even on the internet we all look alike to you huh... [/b][/quote]
Whoops! No, that is not the case...I just got my African brother from another mother confused with another....

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='226944' date='Mar 6 2006, 06:56 PM']But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.[/quote]

I'm so tired of this baloney excuse.

1) Benedict Arnold betrayed West Point, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

2) Socrates was juridically murdered, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

3) Nero was a madman, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

4) Caesar used to like to light farts for fun, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='226752' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:50 AM']Underneath all the alarmism, it sounds like the govt is trying to plug security leaks so sensitive information isn't finding it's way to the press. It doesn't sound like they are trying to go after reporters who paint Bush and Co. in a negative light (besides, there's too many of those types to go after!).
The govt shouldn't be going after the reporters in this case however, they should be looking at themselves since the information they want to stop the spread of is coming from within.

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' post='226747' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:35 AM']
Impeach the President!!!![/quote]
I liked your microwaved Pittsburgh penis story quite a bit, btw. That was the funniest thing I have read in a long, long time. Thanks!
[/quote]


Hmmmm. Musings from a parallel universe.

[Homer_Rice]

Here's how this stuff affects people:

[url="http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=RAISEALARM-02-28-06"]Raise the Alarm[/url]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227064' date='Mar 6 2006, 10:06 PM'][quote name='Bunghole' post='226944' date='Mar 6 2006, 06:56 PM']
But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.[/quote]

I'm so tired of this baloney excuse.

1) Benedict Arnold betrayed West Point, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

2) Socrates was juridically murdered, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

3) Nero was a madman, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

4) Caesar used to like to light farts for fun, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.
[/quote]
I don't think it's baloney, it's simply the "does the falling tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it" argument. Our government has been spying on us and itself for a long, long time. Now, in the age of modern mass media, it is more difficult to hide such activities than before. I also get kind of mad at some older folks whom wax nostalgic about how much different it was "back in the good old days", a vague reference to when Mom and apple pie meant something, and when politicians were honest. Well, Mom was a whore then and she's a whore now, and politicians have never been honest. So what's new about all this?

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='227148' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:06 AM'][quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227064' date='Mar 6 2006, 10:06 PM']
[quote name='Bunghole' post='226944' date='Mar 6 2006, 06:56 PM']
But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.[/quote]

I'm so tired of this baloney excuse.

1) Benedict Arnold betrayed West Point, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

2) Socrates was juridically murdered, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

3) Nero was a madman, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

4) Caesar used to like to light farts for fun, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.
[/quote]
I don't think it's baloney, it's simply the "does the falling tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it" argument. Our government has been spying on us and itself for a long, long time. Now, in the age of modern mass media, it is more difficult to hide such activities than before. I also get kind of mad at some older folks whom wax nostalgic about how much different it was "back in the good old days", a vague reference to when Mom and apple pie meant something, and when politicians were honest. Well, Mom was a whore then and she's a whore now, and politicians have never been honest. So what's new about all this?
[/quote]

Politicians have always been dishonest, but those with a basis for comparison have seen things get progressively worse and can recognize where things are heading. It was obvious when I was a pre-teenager that Americans were kidding themselves about how special they were and how immune they were from the excesses of various societies that they liked to cluck their tongues at. Americans in their own way are now headed down the path that some of the worst of them travelled, and for the same reasons. The biggest reason is that Americans think they're too good to have it happen to them.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='227154' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:51 AM'][quote name='Bunghole' post='227148' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:06 AM']
[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227064' date='Mar 6 2006, 10:06 PM']
[quote name='Bunghole' post='226944' date='Mar 6 2006, 06:56 PM']
But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.[/quote]

I'm so tired of this baloney excuse.

1) Benedict Arnold betrayed West Point, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

2) Socrates was juridically murdered, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

3) Nero was a madman, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

4) Caesar used to like to light farts for fun, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.
[/quote]
I don't think it's baloney, it's simply the "does the falling tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it" argument. Our government has been spying on us and itself for a long, long time. Now, in the age of modern mass media, it is more difficult to hide such activities than before. I also get kind of mad at some older folks whom wax nostalgic about how much different it was "back in the good old days", a vague reference to when Mom and apple pie meant something, and when politicians were honest. Well, Mom was a whore then and she's a whore now, and politicians have never been honest. So what's new about all this?
[/quote]

Politicians have always been dishonest, but those with a basis for comparison have seen things get progressively worse and can recognize where things are heading. It was obvious when I was a pre-teenager that Americans were kidding themselves about how special they were and how immune they were from the excesses of various societies that they liked to cluck their tongues at. Americans in their own way are now headed down the path that some of the worst of them travelled, and for the same reasons. The biggest reason is that Americans think they're too good to have it happen to them.
[/quote]
I for one don't think Americans are better than anyone else. We are simply the most populated country with a standard of living that is higher than anyone else's of a country our size, and I want to keep it that way for my children's sake, and in order to do that, we need to fend off would-be attackers of our soil (sometimes by engaging them abroad), protect our interests overseas and at home, aggressively if necessary, and do a better job of cleaning up after our environment.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='227148' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:06 AM']I don't think it's baloney, it's simply the "does the falling tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it" argument. Our government has been spying on us and itself for a long, long time. Now, in the age of modern mass media, it is more difficult to hide such activities than before. I also get kind of mad at some older folks whom wax nostalgic about how much different it was "back in the good old days", a vague reference to when Mom and apple pie meant something, and when politicians were honest. Well, Mom was a whore then and she's a whore now, and politicians have never been honest. So what's new about all this?[/quote]

As I have a fairly intimate familiarity with COINTELPRO I do not gainsay your point. I simply understand it for what it is: irrelevant at best, and a potential means of self-delusion. At worst, this sort of cynical "I-give-up" sort of attitude abets the crimes of the present. Why are these guys getting away with what they get away with? Because too many folks are giving them a free pass. Why are they getting a free pass? Because too many citizens don't take their responsibilities very seriously. Why do I suggest that citizens don't take their responsibilities very seriously? It's not because of any fundamental differences in "native intelligence" between the generations--though there is no doubt that the quality of basic education has diminished in the past 25 years. It's because of a mental disconnect around some basic moral issues which are inimicable to the average citizen in a republican nation-state.

So, Bung, dodge my question if you will, but I'll re-pose it anyway: Just what has to happen to set off alarms? What is it going to take? If sanctioning torture doesn't do it, what will? If codifying "A Brave New World" doesn't do it, what will?

I used to wonder just how everyday Germans came to tolerate the tragedy of the 30s and 40s. Over time, I've come to realize that they were complicit in many respects. Not out of positive support for a regime that was thoroughly evil to its core, but out of passive acceptance. "The Silent Majority" that Nixon used to refer to can be a force for good or a force for evil, but most of the time they are simply along for the ride. I'd hate to put that on my gravestone as an epitaph:

"Here Lies Homer Rice;
He wanted a better world,
but would not pay the price."

[Guest bengalrick]

if we didn't have the "jack bauers" of the world, i wonder where this country would be right now...

[Ben]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='227274' date='Mar 7 2006, 03:57 PM']if we didn't have the "jack bauers" of the world, i wonder where this country would be right now...[/quote]

I used to believe we reall did have "jack bauers" and the cia/nsa/fbi were really as badass as in the movies...then reality hit.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Ben' post='227279' date='Mar 7 2006, 04:02 PM'][quote name='bengalrick' post='227274' date='Mar 7 2006, 03:57 PM']
if we didn't have the "jack bauers" of the world, i wonder where this country would be right now...[/quote]

I used to believe we reall did have "jack bauers" and the cia/nsa/fbi were really as badass as in the movies...then reality hit.
[/quote]


x2

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='227195' date='Mar 7 2006, 11:09 AM'][quote name='Coy Bacon' post='227154' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:51 AM']
[quote name='Bunghole' post='227148' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:06 AM']
[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227064' date='Mar 6 2006, 10:06 PM']
[quote name='Bunghole' post='226944' date='Mar 6 2006, 06:56 PM']
But torture, illegal spying and the like have been going on FOREVER! Just because the press holds a microscope up to everything now doesn't change that. It's been an unspoken law forever as well. So attempting to codify it into law (which I do not believe will completely happen) doesn't really change anything, does it? It always has been and always will be the same-old-same-old with politicians.[/quote]

I'm so tired of this baloney excuse.

1) Benedict Arnold betrayed West Point, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

2) Socrates was juridically murdered, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

3) Nero was a madman, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.

4) Caesar used to like to light farts for fun, therefore we can't do anything about what is going on now.
[/quote]
I don't think it's baloney, it's simply the "does the falling tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it" argument. Our government has been spying on us and itself for a long, long time. Now, in the age of modern mass media, it is more difficult to hide such activities than before. I also get kind of mad at some older folks whom wax nostalgic about how much different it was "back in the good old days", a vague reference to when Mom and apple pie meant something, and when politicians were honest. Well, Mom was a whore then and she's a whore now, and politicians have never been honest. So what's new about all this?
[/quote]

Politicians have always been dishonest, but those with a basis for comparison have seen things get progressively worse and can recognize where things are heading. It was obvious when I was a pre-teenager that Americans were kidding themselves about how special they were and how immune they were from the excesses of various societies that they liked to cluck their tongues at. Americans in their own way are now headed down the path that some of the worst of them travelled, and for the same reasons. The biggest reason is that Americans think they're too good to have it happen to them.
[/quote]
I for one don't think Americans are better than anyone else. We are simply the most populated country with a standard of living that is higher than anyone else's of a country our size, and I want to keep it that way for my children's sake, and in order to do that, we need to fend off would-be attackers of our soil (sometimes by engaging them abroad), protect our interests overseas and at home, aggressively if necessary, and do a better job of cleaning up after our environment.
[/quote]

There is much hidden potential for evil in the generalities involved in what you just said, and that I keep hearing blared all over the place.

You talk about "our" interests. Who is "we"? We obviously don't all have the same interest and we sure as hell don't define them the same way. It seems silly to me that so many working and middle-class people assume that they belong to the same "we" that the politicians and their most influential constituents belong to. That assumption is not supported by the evidence. Most people in what has been downgraded to a "Homeland" probably have an interest in leaving people overseas the hell alone a lot more than people with their hands on the levers of power want to. I have no interests that are served by torture and genocide. In fact, the degree to which my neighbors succeed in such activity subjects me to increased danger from their bloodlust being turned on me under some pretext of the sort that they've proven themselves to easily prone to rampage over.

There's evil lurking in the idea of "interests" too. Are these legitimate interests or criminal interests? Who's the judge? Does it make any sense that one-sided judgement based on population, power and standard of living is the standard for answering the question? Defending yourself is one thing; so is defending your home. When it comes to defending some vaguely defined "interests" that lie in somebody else's back yard, we're getting into the territory where a lot of fucked up shit starts going down.

Even the idea of fending off would-be attackers, as unarguable as it sounds, can be a refuge for scoundrels. There's nothing more dangerous than a paranoid person with a gun - ask Buddy Gray. There's nothing more contemnable than a bully that takes his victim's attempts at self defense as justification for escalating abuse. There's nothing more infuriating than the person that quickly forgets the last time they trod on your foot, stands on it once more, refuses to move, and then becomes outraged when you knock them off of it.

And there's nothing more insane than a person that lies to cover up all of these situations and then comes to believe the lies. The part of an individual's psyche that cares about the individual that cares about being a whole and healthy person needs to deal with the dishonest part of the psyche that generates the lies and the psychotic part that believes the lies. In the case of a society, the part of it that cares about being a whole and healthy society needs to deal with the crooks that lie and the willing dupes that chose to believe the lies.

Now, you talk about attacks and attackers. Let's assume al Qaeda attacked the US 9/11/2001 with no assistance from anyone else. Why not gather the best evidence of this? Why stonewall and obfuscate investigation of the attack? Why allow critical evidence to be spirited away (the structural steel wisked away and sold for scrap)? Why make yourself appear suspicious by making up preposterous and duplicitous statements about foresight (planes being used as weapons), motives (they hate us for our freedoms), and policy (the Vice President conflating interception of aircraft with shooting them down - then contradicting himself by saying that he issued a shoot order that supposedly wasn't carried out)? Why spirit the bin Ladens out of the country? It's not like family members hadn't visited Osama in Dubai (where have I heard that name before?) when he was in the hospital there in July 2001.

I could go on, but the short version is most of what I hear about threats represents tunnel vision and fails to account for internal and external threats that are more immediate and more significant than anything al Qaeda and company can pull off.

[Homer_Rice]

Who is Jack Bauers?

[BengalSIS]

The spying techniques that can be used on private citizens today are far more invasive and untraceable than in the past. Just because you used to let little johnny pelt you with his slingshot when you were a kid, doesn't mean you let him shoot you with a gun as an adult.

The press is our only way to keep the admin honest. They obviously don't do a very good job keeping things right on their own. There has always been ways to deal with national security leaks. But the only info I see that is being condemned is the fact the gov't acted illegally. If the gov't can't do a better job keeping important info secret, than who is the bigger threat?

I am neither Rep nor Dem, but I get a sense that there would have been a huge outcry from Rep if Clinton had suggested this several years ago.

Bush is overstepping his bounds.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227349' date='Mar 7 2006, 05:53 PM']Who is Jack Bauers?[/quote]


He is a agent for the Counter Terriosm Unit on the TV show 24, great great show on fox on mondays at 9.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='227428' date='Mar 7 2006, 08:40 PM'][quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227349' date='Mar 7 2006, 05:53 PM']
Who is Jack Bauers?[/quote]


He is a agent for the Counter Terriosm Unit on the TV show 24, great great show on fox on mondays at 9.
[/quote]


I didn't want to ask, but I didn't know either. I've felt really out of loop lately with comments relating to him. Finally someone had the courage to ask.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='227428' date='Mar 7 2006, 08:40 PM'][quote name='Homer_Rice' post='227349' date='Mar 7 2006, 05:53 PM']
Who is Jack Bauers?[/quote]


He is a agent for the Counter Terriosm Unit on the TV show 24, great great show on fox on mondays at 9.
[/quote]
BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!11

he(jack bauer) is nothing more than keifer fucking sutherland in make up and a fake bullet proof vest, keifer fucking sutherland

chuck pwns queefer

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='227390' date='Mar 7 2006, 07:27 PM']The spying techniques that can be used on private citizens today are far more invasive and untraceable than in the past. Just because you used to let little johnny pelt you with his slingshot when you were a kid, doesn't mean you let him shoot you with a gun as an adult.

The press is our only way to keep the admin honest. They obviously don't do a very good job keeping things right on their own. There has always been ways to deal with national security leaks. But the only info I see that is being condemned is the fact the gov't acted illegally. If the gov't can't do a better job keeping important info secret, than who is the bigger threat?

I am neither Rep nor Dem, but I get a sense that there would have been a huge outcry from Rep if Clinton had suggested this several years ago.

Bush is overstepping his bounds.[/quote]
Bush isn't overstepping his bounds. He is nothing without the people who surround him and prop up his intellect and write his speeches, and the Republican-dominated Congress....without them he would be just a dummy from texas ith a speech impediment.....wait.....huh?