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COULD MORA REPLACE BRESNAHAN ???

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[quote name='Orange 'n Black' post='420444' date='Jan 1 2007, 10:46 PM']No more vanilla.[/quote]

Vanilla goes away when we have the personnel to make it go away.

So here we go.

Is it coaching or personnel, if it is coaching, I agree FIRE him. If it is personnel, we then get into this argument;

1) was the personnel in place and lost to stuipidity/injury
2) personnel was never in place and we talent evaluation/draft issues?

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Guest schotzee
[quote name='cwing' post='420654' date='Jan 2 2007, 09:52 AM']Vanilla goes away when we have the personnel to make it go away.

So here we go.

Is it coaching or personnel, if it is coaching, I agree FIRE him. If it is personnel, we then get into this argument;

1) was the personnel in place and lost to stuipidity/injury
2) personnel was never in place and we talent evaluation/draft issues?[/quote]


I don't know ,but they say the only thing you can't coach is speed.Our D has decent speed so the coaching should be able to overcome the other obstacles that enter and haven't.

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[quote name='schotzee' post='420579' date='Jan 2 2007, 07:45 AM']I agree.People are always using excuses ,saying lack of talent or whatever,but there are coaches that can actually make players better than what they were just born with.We need a coordinator like that.[/quote]

In college or high school maybe------- this is the pros, talent/execution wins. The greatest coach in the world can not cover for a lack of it --------

There is a difference between a reason and an excuse. Sounding off half cocked with the fire this guy and that player suckes mentality serves no purpose. Put some thought into your agrument. Ask yourself a question and answer it until there are no more questions. Then question each answer until all questions are answered.

Our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Our coach sucks so fire him is not the final answer at this point. Next question, Well our D sucks because we play this vanilla system. Why do we play this system? You keep going until you find out an answer.

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[quote name='cwing' post='420654' date='Jan 2 2007, 09:52 AM']Vanilla goes away when we have the personnel to make it go away.

So here we go.

Is it coaching or personnel, if it is coaching, I agree FIRE him. If it is personnel, we then get into this argument;

1) was the personnel in place and lost to stuipidity/injury
2) personnel was never in place and we talent evaluation/draft issues?[/quote]

Who's at fault for the lost Bluto games? Certainly, its not all or even mostly Bluto's fault. We didn't put him in enough games last year for him to learn.

Once he became the starter, we didn't recognize and address the problem until we had lost 4 games. If won, any one of those games would have put us in the playoffs.

He showed he can actually play NFL level ball and is most likely our future starter but only after they addressed his problem.

His problem was them. The coaches. They pushed too hard to learn the reads and his performance suffered as did our QB's health. When they backed off and rehearsed the "basics" (Willie's comment) he shut down the middle and we had the Chargers game on offense. Carson and company put up huge numbers.

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[quote name='Jeb' post='420671' date='Jan 2 2007, 10:14 AM']Who's at fault for the lost Bluto games? Certainly, its not all or even mostly Bluto's fault. We didn't put him in enough games last year for him to learn.

Once he became the starter, we didn't recognize and address the problem until we had lost 4 games. If won, any one of those games would have put us in the playoffs.

He showed he can actually play NFL level ball and is most likely our future starter but only after they addressed his problem.

His problem was them. The coaches. They pushed too hard to learn the reads and his performance suffered as did our QB's health. When they backed off and rehearsed the "basics" (Willie's comment) he shut down the middle and we had the Chargers game on offense. Carson and company put up huge numbers.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that Guycheck was not ready. The ideal situation would be him starting in his 3rd season after mop up time at Guard/Center and starting most preseason games in that 3 year period. Sometimes it does not work that way and guys are force fed early.

I for one am not on the field. To take that much out of a comment made by a player --------- not sure if that is what the issue was or not. I am not disagreeing with you but i am not agreeing with you either -------

I could string together an argument to the exact opposite. Guycheck was not ready, with forcefull coaching and massive cram sessions the coaching staff got him on the same page. The coaching staff adjsuted to his strenght/weaknesses and is and will continue to develope this guy into our center of the future.

Funny that you believe the coaches hurt Guycheck when they had more offensive line changes than anyone in footbal yet stayed in every game. The coaches also seemed to do ok with Whitworth/Andrews and they have coached Steinbach to the point that he can play every position on the line.

Again you will never hear me say that a coach should/should not be fired. I'll only throw out alterinate ideas and additional items to consider. I am not an NFL insider and do not know for sure what the issue is/was. i too have many, many questions on why/how they do certain things.....

I only know what I know -------- The defense in it's current state ----SUCKS !!! We can write forever concerning the reasons why it may or may not stink but it currently does. I also know this offense has put up far too few points and did not play well. Again there are many reasons we could discuss.

On another note ----- This offense has been pretty damn good with Brat at the helm. He made progress with even Kitna at QB. Bres has coached #1 defenses and had his team in a SB. Marvin was the man that put into place what may have been the best D ever. He then went to Wash and took that D to top 5 if not top 3 in one season. To think that Marvin/Bres are not on the same page or to think that Marvin would sit back idle while Bres destroys the defense ------- just don't buy it.

The idea that these guys cannot coach ---------- just not so sure I buy it. Now the players ------- it is a given that the players need to play much better than they did.

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[quote name='schotzee' post='421735' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:36 PM']Watch the game tonight.Bo Pelini DC of LSU is who we want.[/quote]
how can i judge his D on tonight's game? aren't they playing notre dung?

:ninja:

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[quote name='cwing' post='421742' date='Jan 3 2007, 05:56 PM']Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that Guycheck was not ready. The ideal situation would be him starting in his 3rd season after mop up time at Guard/Center and starting most preseason games in that 3 year period. Sometimes it does not work that way and guys are force fed early.

I for one am not on the field. To take that much out of a comment made by a player --------- not sure if that is what the issue was or not. I am not disagreeing with you but i am not agreeing with you either -------

I could string together an argument to the exact opposite. Guycheck was not ready, with forcefull coaching and massive cram sessions the coaching staff got him on the same page. The coaching staff adjsuted to his strenght/weaknesses and is and will continue to develope this guy into our center of the future.

Funny that you believe the coaches hurt Guycheck when they had more offensive line changes than anyone in footbal yet stayed in every game. The coaches also seemed to do ok with Whitworth/Andrews and they have coached Steinbach to the point that he can play every position on the line.

Again you will never hear me say that a coach should/should not be fired. I'll only throw out alterinate ideas and additional items to consider. I am not an NFL insider and do not know for sure what the issue is/was. i too have many, many questions on why/how they do certain things.....

I only know what I know -------- The defense in it's current state ----SUCKS !!! We can write forever concerning the reasons why it may or may not stink but it currently does. I also know this offense has put up far too few points and did not play well. Again there are many reasons we could discuss.

On another note ----- This offense has been pretty damn good with Brat at the helm. He made progress with even Kitna at QB. Bres has coached #1 defenses and had his team in a SB. Marvin was the man that put into place what may have been the best D ever. He then went to Wash and took that D to top 5 if not top 3 in one season. To think that Marvin/Bres are not on the same page or to think that Marvin would sit back idle while Bres destroys the defense ------- just don't buy it.

The idea that these guys cannot coach ---------- just not so sure I buy it. Now the players ------- it is a given that the players need to play much better than they did.[/quote]

I'm not a big believer in getting rid of coaches over something like this but I am a big believer in understanding this team. Whether the coaches stay or go really depends on what the coaches learn from this experience. I've spent more time studying the offense more than the defense so I've been following all their comments all along when things really started to sour for our offense and thoughout the season.

As the losses mounted, I got the impression that he was incapable of playing NFL football. Imagine my surprise with the Chargers game.

All of this time, he and the coaches commented that he really needs to study the reads and so much so that it spilled out here that it was the most important aspect he needed to learn. Many posters here thought that was his biggest problem. Article after article after interview covered that subject. That he just wasn't good at reading the D. I heard that over and over here but that didn't explain his play.

It didn't explain his lack of proper stance.

It didn't explain him missing a LB shooting his gap.

It didn't explain why he would wind up 2 steps back and one step over behind Steiny which allowed a sack of Carson (I got to see it in slow motion, overhead cam, ...not pretty!).

Not being able to read the D doesn't account for that poor performance.

Then the week after the Chargers game we see the article with Willie's comments and everyone else who was thankful he got it together but couldn't wait for Rich to get back. In it, Willie stated that they concentrated on the basics of play that week and that helped Ghiaciuc in the Chargers game ( I mean he really did put on a "how to" clinic in that game).

Now what we are left with is a center who shuts down his lane but is still not so good on the reads and why would he be? The D coordinators of all of our opponents were showing him the standard looks but attacking his spot not the area where that look was supposed to attack. They aren't doing that anymore now that he closed his lane down. So, the looks he saw before were meant to confuse him and draw him into a double team and open his lane. Now that he knows better, has shut down his lane, the end result is different and more like what he'll see in the future. Its like starting over again at learning the reads. This time its more honest.

All he had to do was close his lane down and most of the attack on the middle of the line would stop and it has eased up a lot since then (well, except for Steiny who's being targeted for some reason lately and have blown him up on occasion but that's a separate problem).

...my 2 cents.

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[quote name='Jeb' post='421827' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:47 PM']I'm not a big believer in getting rid of coaches over something like this but I am a big believer in understanding this team. Whether the coaches stay or go really depends on what the coaches learn from this experience. I've spent more time studying the offense more than the defense so I've been following all their comments all along when things really started to sour for our offense and thoughout the season.

As the losses mounted, I got the impression that he was incapable of playing NFL football. Imagine my surprise with the Chargers game.

All of this time, he and the coaches commented that he really needs to study the reads and so much so that it spilled out here that it was the most important aspect he needed to learn. Many posters here thought that was his biggest problem. Article after article after interview covered that subject. That he just wasn't good at reading the D. I heard that over and over here but that didn't explain his play.

It didn't explain his lack of proper stance.

It didn't explain him missing a LB shooting his gap.

It didn't explain why he would wind up 2 steps back and one step over behind Steiny which allowed a sack of Carson (I got to see it in slow motion, overhead cam, ...not pretty!).

Not being able to read the D doesn't account for that poor performance.

Then the week after the Chargers game we see the article with Willie's comments and everyone else who was thankful he got it together but couldn't wait for Rich to get back. In it, Willie stated that they concentrated on the basics of play that week and that helped Ghiaciuc in the Chargers game ( I mean he really did put on a "how to" clinic in that game).

Now what we are left with is a center who shuts down his lane but is still not so good on the reads and why would he be? The D coordinators of all of our opponents were showing him the standard looks but attacking his spot not the area where that look was supposed to attack. They aren't doing that anymore now that he closed his lane down. So, the looks he saw before were meant to confuse him and draw him into a double team and open his lane. Now that he knows better, has shut down his lane, the end result is different and more like what he'll see in the future. Its like starting over again at learning the reads. This time its more honest.

All he had to do was close his lane down and most of the attack on the middle of the line would stop and it has eased up a lot since then (well, except for Steiny who's being targeted for some reason lately and have blown him up on occasion but that's a separate problem).

...my 2 cents.[/quote]

Very good observation, and interesting theory. For four or five weeks, Ghiaciuc missed every single delayed blitz up the middle. The center's responsibility is to watch for a defender shooting up the middle, and if there is none, to help one of the guards. Well, Ghiaciuc looked for a defender, saw none, went to help Steiny, then a backer shoots in behind him. In a quick passing game, this would be great because the backer just opened up a huge hole up the middle, but in our passing game, if the backer doesn't get picked up, it's a sack.

By the way, one of the observations Football Outsiders made in the first Ravens game was that our backs were just awful at picking up blitzes, especially Rudi. I think he has improved a lot in that area this year, and we pretty much shut down every blitz they could send at us in the second game.

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[quote name='SlantNGo' post='421835' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:03 PM']Very good observation, and interesting theory. For four or five weeks, Ghiaciuc missed every single delayed blitz up the middle. The center's responsibility is to watch for a defender shooting up the middle, and if there is none, to help one of the guards. Well, Ghiaciuc looked for a defender, saw none, went to help Steiny, then a backer shoots in behind him. In a quick passing game, this would be great because the backer just opened up a huge hole up the middle, but in our passing game, if the backer doesn't get picked up, it's a sack.

By the way, one of the observations Football Outsiders made in the first Ravens game was that our backs were just awful at picking up blitzes, especially Rudi. I think he has improved a lot in that area this year, and we pretty much shut down every blitz they could send at us in the second game.[/quote]


;) ...oh that 2nd game!

We almost pitched a shutout, ...thanks Tory! <_<

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Guest schotzee
[quote name='cwing' post='420666' date='Jan 2 2007, 10:03 AM']In college or high school maybe------- this is the pros, talent/execution wins. The greatest coach in the world can not cover for a lack of it --------

There is a difference between a reason and an excuse. Sounding off half cocked with the fire this guy and that player suckes mentality serves no purpose. Put some thought into your agrument. Ask yourself a question and answer it until there are no more questions. Then question each answer until all questions are answered.

Our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Our coach sucks so fire him is not the final answer at this point. Next question, Well our D sucks because we play this vanilla system. Why do we play this system? You keep going until you find out an answer.[/quote]


Well then here's a question.How can the same unit or group of guys go from good to sucking or vice versa,all during the span of within 1 game?

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Plain and simple the man who needs to be hired as DC is obviously Marvin Lewis. Why can't he pull double duty? If Billick can do it, then Lewis definitely can. If Bresh is left here all I know is that it's just going to be another year of unmotivated players who miss tackles and play soft coverage.

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Guest Patmo
Get Monty Kiffen or Donnie Henderson as new DC.Get Zampese NOW to replace Brat as OC.

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[quote name='Patmo' post='422085' date='Jan 4 2007, 05:33 PM']Get Monty Kiffen or Donnie Henderson as new DC.Get Zampese NOW to replace Brat as OC.[/quote]
Dude, i think Kiffin makes about 2 mil a year as a DC in tampa. why on earth would he leave?

as for part two of your post.... :ninja:

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[quote name='natifanatic' post='422027' date='Jan 4 2007, 09:50 AM']Plain and simple the man who needs to be hired as DC is obviously Marvin Lewis. Why can't he pull double duty? If Billick can do it, then Lewis definitely can. If Bresh is left here all I know is that it's just going to be another year of unmotivated players who miss tackles and play soft coverage.[/quote]

Maybe Marvin knows the talent level just isn't there on this defense and he doesn't want to ruin his reputation as a defensive genius. Either that or he was just lucky in Baltimore.

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[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='422089' date='Jan 4 2007, 12:38 PM']Dude, i think Kiffin makes about 2 mil a year as a DC in tampa. why on earth would he leave?

as for part two of your post.... :ninja:[/quote]

Maybe he was regarding the eventual firing of Jon Gruden. However I think they are too stand alone to be linked. If Gruden goes down, Kiffin won't.

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[quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='422209' date='Jan 4 2007, 10:17 PM']Maybe he was regarding the eventual firing of Jon Gruden. However I think they are too stand alone to be linked. If Gruden goes down, Kiffin won't.[/quote]
yeah, i was under the impression that Kiffin was pretty much untouchable there, but who knows...

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Forget Mora, and Kiffen... Art Shell has just been fired, lets go get Rob Ryan. :headbang:

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[quote name='Patmo' post='422085' date='Jan 4 2007, 12:33 PM']Get Monty Kiffen or Donnie Henderson as new DC.Get Zampese NOW to replace Brat as OC.[/quote]


I definitely agree with you about promoting Zampese to OC. If we don't he will eventually leave for the same position elsewhere. Zampese has been huge in the development of Carson!

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