Doubting Darwin

[Jason]

[quote name='BigFresh' date='Feb 10 2005, 03:51 AM']Seriously... are you trying to suggest that the bible contains prophecy... and that the prophecy came true?  Please give good reasons for thinking that.

You alluded to passages Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22.  Why do those particular chapters -  accepted by the council of Nicae - allude to anything in the present, or recorded history.  How are they prophecy and how have those prophecies been evidenced?


In fact, how do have you or anyone come to the conclusion that  the Christian bible contains "prophecy" at all, and how do you conclude that said prophecy has been realized by acceptable acounts?
[right][post="44991"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Have you ever READ Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? They are prophetic accounts of the life and crucifixion of Jesus, and were written several hundred years before Jesus was born, or crucifixion was even invented. Some time, read them, and Matthew 26 and 27, and Luke 22 and 23.

I'm also interested in your response to my post on Amino Acids and Proteins.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Bengal_Smoov' date='Feb 4 2005, 04:01 PM']I recommend them both, not sure if my recommendation means anything to anyone here.       
[right][post="43065"][/post][/right][/quote]
They are both excellent works of fiction.

[jza10304]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Feb 10 2005, 01:12 PM']They are both excellent works of fiction.
[right][post="45038"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I can think of another great work of fiction.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Feb 10 2005, 11:28 AM']I can think of another great work of fiction.
[right][post="45045"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

The Necronomicon?

[BigFresh]

[quote name='Jason' date='Feb 10 2005, 09:23 AM']Have you ever READ Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22?  They are prophetic accounts of the life and crucifixion of Jesus, and were written several hundred years before Jesus was born, or crucifixion was even invented.  Some time, read them, and Matthew 26 and 27, and Luke 22 and 23.
[right][post="44999"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

To answer your first question, yes. When I was a Christian I read the bible cover to cover. I even had people drill into me that certain biblical passages were "prophecy." These popped up all the time.

[b][color="red"][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=isaiah%2053&version=31"]This is "Isaiah 53" in the NIV.[/url][/color][/b]

I'm going to post with the NIV because its likely the most popular in the US; despite the existence of more accurate translations such as the NRSV. Also, it was produced by evangelicals who took great liberties with the texts and doctored up things like this passage that they popularly believed to be prophecy.

To begin, Isaiah 53 - even in the NIV - is clearly not speaking of an individual. Also, the gospel depiction shows Jesus as having no offspring. This chapter is talking about sacrificing oneself in order to gain the favor of God: To live to see one's offspring grow and prosper, he must suffer the grievances of his sin, etcetera etcetera. It also talks about the sufferer living a long life, something the gospels say Jesus did not do.

To continue, where does it say "It will come to pass in "x" years hence that these events will befall Jesus..." THAT is what prophecy sounds like. This is ancient Israeli social commentary.

Next song:

[b][color="red"][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2022;&version=31;"]Psalm 22, NIV[/url][/color][/b]

Once again, where does it say "One day in the future/"x"-years-from-now Jesus (the messiah, savior of the Hebrews) will say this:" ? There is nothing here by which to even call it a prediction. This is clearly just like any other Psalm, a prayer or song.

You claim that these things refer to crucifixion, but where do they once describe a cross or nails? All that you're doing is finding a convenient coincidence such as torture or piercing of hands and feet and saying they describe something in another book also written thousands of years ago. If you read a two-thousand year old book with a chapter that said "...and they sat down and were burned with lightning." That the book was predicting a modern execution with Ol' Sparky?

Furthermore, you could have a book from 2000 years ago that repeats verbatim what a book from 2000 years ago said and you still haven't got a leg to stand on because it's still a [i]post[/i]diction.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BigFresh' date='Feb 13 2005, 02:01 AM']To answer your first question, yes.  When I was a Christian I read the bible cover to cover.  I even had people drill into me that certain biblical passages were "prophecy."  These popped up all the time.

[b][color="red"][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=isaiah%2053&version=31"]This is "Isaiah 53" in the NIV.[/url][/color][/b]

I'm going to post with the NIV because its likely the most popular in the US; despite the existence of more accurate translations such as the NRSV.  Also, it was produced by evangelicals who took great liberties with the texts and doctored up things like this passage that they popularly believed to be prophecy.

To begin, Isaiah 53 - even in the NIV - is clearly not speaking of an individual.  Also, the gospel depiction shows Jesus as having no offspring.  This chapter is talking about sacrificing oneself in order to gain the favor of God:  To live to see one's offspring grow and prosper, he must suffer the grievances of his sin, etcetera etcetera.  It also talks about the sufferer living a long life, something the gospels say Jesus did not do.

To continue, where does it say "It will come to pass in "x" years hence that these events will befall Jesus..."  THAT is what prophecy sounds like.  This is ancient Israeli social commentary. 

Next song:

[b][color="red"][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2022;&version=31;"]Psalm 22, NIV[/url][/color][/b]

Once again, where does it say "One day in the future/"x"-years-from-now Jesus (the messiah, savior of the Hebrews) will say this:" ?  There is nothing here by which to even call it a prediction.  This is clearly just like any other Psalm, a prayer or song. 

You claim that these things refer to crucifixion, but where do they once describe a cross or nails?  All that you're doing is finding a convenient coincidence such as torture or piercing of hands and feet and saying they describe something in another book also written thousands of years ago.  If you read a two-thousand year old book with a chapter that said "...and they sat down and were burned with lightning."  That the book was predicting a modern execution with Ol' Sparky?

Furthermore, you could have a book from 2000 years ago that repeats verbatim what a book from 2000 years ago said and you still haven't got a leg to stand on because it's still a [i]post[/i]diction.
[right][post="46175"][/post][/right][/quote]
While I agree surfacely with your empirical argument, I think your post illustrates why the Bible is a withstanding book of merit.
The interpretations are sometimes open to your personal view, keeping the book applicable to modern life in a way similar to Shakespeare's run of meaningfulness.
Again, with science the "imperfect religion" as my guide, I attest that while some things are not possible for man, everything is possible with God.
I honestly believe that some things are not meant for us to discover. Call it foolishness, call it a gut feeling, I just don't see us overcoming the technological obstacles that allow travel at the speed of light, which should be our ultimate goal, if we indeed are desiring contact with other life in the Universe.

I guess that my blind belief in life after death got the better of me....

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="blue"]I believe that travel to other planets.... and ultimately colonization of other planets.... will prove all religions obselete and false......

Wouldn't that be great....

God desceneds down to Earth and noone is here... [/color]




[i]I Love this quote by Mark Twain

"I have seen several entirely sincere people who thought they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. That was the end of the search. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth he sought no further; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors."[/i]

[|Bunghole|]

That is indeed one of, if not THE most profound of Twain's quotes.
The colonization of other planets as you describe is techologically so far-fetched right now that it remains in the realm of science fiction.
But i guess science fiction has had it's share of prophecies, too..
God is intentionally elusive to our senses and measurements...

[Nati Ice]

the bible is most likely not a prophecy, it was written by humans for humans, and most likely includes human flaws

it is good evidence and includes support for christianity but shouldn't be viewed as much more than that, anything else is most likely coincidence, especially the new testament, but thats just my 2 cents

[BigFresh]

The collection of books we call the bible contains volumes written over a span of many centuries, it contains geneologies, myths, religious works, prayers, love poems, songs, morality plays, and mythical tales of heros and villains. It is NOT a history book, a science book, or an instruction book.

I'm amazed that it isn't just Christians who treat these texts like they're some sort of miraculous talisman. These are just a bunch of books the early Catholic church voted on and included together in one unified volume.

The gospels are NOT historical accounts of a magical Jew who raised people from the dead, pilfered donkeys vicariously, and cursed at fig trees. They are STORIES about a magical Jew who raised people from the dead, pilfered donkeys vicariously, and cursed at fig trees.

"Jesus Christ" is a literary character, no more real than Huckleberry Finn or Ebenezer Scrooge. The "Gospels" Christians point to as "evidence" for their faith were written decades after what modern Christians consider to be the time of an existing Jesus. In fact, there is no extrabiblical account that would show Jesus as ever having existed. He's a myth - like Heracles or Amon Ra, or Dionysis. The town of Nazareth didn't even exist until the third century C.E. - and people call that guy "Jesus of Nazareth." That's be quite a trick to be from a town two hundred years in the future.

We like to be tolerant and sweet and say "its a mystery" because religion has taught us to be happy and satisfied with our own ignorance. It troubles me to hear people say they think there are things we shouldn't know. Don't we WANT to know things? Aren't we curious about the way the universe works? Are we simply afraid that when we dig deep enough we'll find that there are no angels, devils, gods, or miracle men? The universe is quite exciting and fascinating enough without having to invent boogey-men in the sky that we can't see, hear, taste, smell, or touch.

Religion is nothing more than the little lies we tell ourselves to be content with our ignorance. It makes us feel special and lets us stop looking for what makes things tick. We can smile because, to paraphrase Mark Twain, we have found a truth we are comfortable with.

[Guest BlackJesus]

Nice Big Fresh

[Guest bengalrick]

if Jesus Christ is "fictionary", then why does the karan also acknowledge jesus... they don't say he is THE lord and savior, only a prophet, like moses in our version of the bible...

i can accept if you don't believe he was here to die for our sins, or if say that the bible was written by many authors over a long span of time... i believe the bible should be used as a guide, but not taken literally...

but if you tell me that Jesus Christ is as real as huckelberry finn, i do have a problem w/ that... i will surely call you out on that... why does the karan also mention jesus christ as a prophet of God, fresh?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Feb 16 2005, 10:59 AM']if Jesus Christ is "fictionary", then why does the karan  also acknowledge jesus... they don't say he is THE lord and savior, only a prophet, like moses in our version of the bible...

i can accept if you don't believe he was here to die for our sins, or if say that the bible was written by many authors over a long span of time... i believe the bible should be used as a guide, but not taken literally...

but if you tell me that Jesus Christ is as real as huckelberry finn, i do have a problem w/ that... i will surely call you out on that... why does the karan also mention jesus christ as a prophet of God, fresh?
[right][post="47598"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


I would venture to say Big Fresh puts about as much faith in the Koran as he does the Bible, but Ill let him answser that. The thing that I find scary about his post is that its arrogant in his belief that we are ingnorant and from that ignorance only one anwser is possible and that that anwser is his because we cant prove it. Rather I would offer the opposite, we cant prove it so therefore it MUST be a possibility of a God until we prove otherwise. Science based in arrogant idealism does neither side any good in finding a anwser. (Though I still say that you don't have to have science vs. religion and that one can be used to explain the other)


Also Fresh, while your anwsering about your belif in the Koran, could you help to steer this discussion back to the science aspect of it, by anwsering Jason's question. I mean you did say you find this fun to talk about.

[Guest bengalrick]

true, i guess i didn't think of that... i figured that since the two butt-ass opposite faiths, both acknowledge he existed... another key fact in the karan is that the virgin mary is the only woman mentioned by name, in the whole book..

anyways, one problem w/ every experiment about the "big bang theory" or any other explanation for the earth to pop out of nothing's ass, is that scientists seem to come to a screeching halt, when it comes to answer the most important question: "where did we originally come from"... the big bang theory can only go so far back... then where did we come from?

[BigFresh]

So what if the Qu'ran mentions Jesus? That doesn't make him real. By the time the Qu'ran was written, (several centuries after the allegied "time of Christ") Jesus Christ was already a well-established myth. I don't give the Muslim Qu'ran any more credence than I do the Christian bible.

Where have I shown that I possess any "faith." Faith is - as Mark Twain said - believing what you know ain't so. Faith is taking something for granted without having been convinced it is real. Anyone with a god belief does this everyday. I do possess confidence in ideas, but that confidence is not dogmatic like belief in religion is required to be.

I don't believe in gods and I also don't "believe" in the big bang. The concept of the big bang is the popular and common conception for the universal origin and I accept it as a reasonable and evidenced reason for the origin of the universe, but I don't consider it as axiomatic.

Anyone who believe so should answer my question: "Why is the bible a literary work that should be considered as a guide for living one's life." Also, someone give me one good reason why I or anyone should consider Jesus as a real person that lived.


If it is desired that I should steer the conversation back to science. I will ask the question: Why should the scientific method be usurped by a belief system as the primary method of developing a worldview?

[Jason]

Jesus Christ definitely lived. And there are several non-biblical sources confirming that. Just a couple are quoted below:

Flavius Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.) (Josephus was a Jewish Historian)
(later interpolations in brackets)

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


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Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.) (Pliny was a Roman Governor)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honor it."2


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Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.) (Tacitus was a Roman Historian)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"5


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And the simple fact that we have a church that worships Christ, that is world wide, should be evidence that he existed. There are plenty of other historical evidences of the church dating back to the time of Christ. Stories of Roman persecution, and martyrs. Why would anyone who lived at that time die for someone who never lived?

You can doubt the deity of Christ if you choose, but to doubt that he lived would be similar to doubting that George Washington lived.

There is more literary support for the existence of Jesus Christ thatn there is for the existance of Plato or Socrates, but nobody doubts that they lived!

[The J Dub]

[quote]Jesus Christ definitely lived. And there are several non-biblical sources confirming that. Just a couple are quoted below:

Flavius Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.) (Josephus was a Jewish Historian)
(later interpolations in brackets)

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.) (Pliny was a Roman Governor)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honor it."2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.) (Tacitus was a Roman Historian)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the simple fact that we have a church that worships Christ, that is world wide, should be evidence that he existed. There are plenty of other historical evidences of the church dating back to the time of Christ. Stories of Roman persecution, and martyrs. Why would anyone who lived at that time die for someone who never lived?

You can doubt the deity of Christ if you choose, but to doubt that he lived would be similar to doubting that George Washington lived.

There is more literary support for the existence of Jesus Christ thatn there is for the existance of Plato or Socrates, but nobody doubts that they lived![/quote]

you so crazy

[Jason]

[quote name='The J Dub' date='Feb 17 2005, 10:55 AM']       you so crazy
[right][post="48206"][/post][/right][/quote]

Can you refute, with support, anything I said?

Calling names is easy.

[|Bunghole|]

There's a saying that goes something like:
"I'd rather go through life believing in God, only to die and find out He doesn't exist, rather than go through life not believing in God only to die and find out He does."
I like that.

I don't think that faith in God and science are mutually exclusive, they often choose to ignore or argue with one another--in fact, with all our technology and advancements during the 20th century, science's glaring weakness has been revealed.

And that weakness is that serious interstellar space travel is impossible for us.
That type of travel is the only way to prove truths about physics, our existence, the existence of other life, the creation of the Universe...colonizing Mars is far more realistic than creating a vehicle that can negotiate space at or above the speed of light.
The ramifications of the time lapses involved [i]even if[/i] we could build such a craft are mind-bending.
Fuck, the distances involved are mind-bending.

Furthermore, can science please explain to me our perfect existence here?
How is it that we have a perfect planet for the sustainment of life...a perfect atmosphere, a perfect amount of water, we're the perfect distance away from a mediocre star for the perfect level of electromagnetic radiation to warm and feed us through photosynthesis, we have a perfect diversity of life...
It is far too perfect a setup to have just "happened" on it's own.
And how many other worlds are out there like ours? Or how many other worlds are out there that have alternate life forms that live in enviornments that couldn't possibly sustain human existence?

Science has a long way to go. I love science. I also love God, but not because I'm ignorant or blind. I just wonder if we'll ever get a peek behind the curtain (without having to die first!).
I just don't know.

[jza10304]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:32 PM']There's a saying that goes something like:
"I'd rather go through life believing in God, only to die and find out He doesn't exist, rather than go through life not believing in God only to die and find out He does."
I like that.[right][post="48257"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

That quote always sounded to me like it comes out of fear. Don't you think that God would know who truly believed in him or not? This is of course, if it is a punishing god who will cast you out for not believing in him (or her). I would think that god would want you to believe for the right reasons, not because you are afraid what might happen to you when you die.

I just try to live my life and not do harm to others. If everyone does that, how bad can it be?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Feb 17 2005, 10:37 AM']That quote always sounded to me like it comes out of fear.  Don't you think that God would know who truly believed in him or not?  This is of course, if it is a punishing god who will cast you out for not believing in him (or her).  I would think that god would want you to believe for the right reasons, not because you are afraid what might happen to you when you die.

I just try to live my life and not do harm to others.  If everyone does that, how bad can it be?
[right][post="48258"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I agree with your philosophy of living life ("Do unto others...").
That quote is about hedging your bets against the possibility of God being the Punisher from the Old Testament, rather than The Forgiver from the New.
And yeah, it's based on fear. Fear of God is often mentioned in the Bible.
If God exists as He's portrayed in the Bible and He appeared to you, you would be frightened.
But then He would tell you not to be scared.
But I don't put too much stock in much the Bible says, other than that God is essentially a cosmic traveler that will return to Earth someday and check on our progress.
BUt who really knows?
This is an utterly fascinating subject though!

[jza10304]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:48 PM']I agree with your philosophy of living life ("Do unto others...").
That quote is about hedging your bets against the possibility of God being the Punisher from the Old Testament, rather than The Forgiver from the New.
And yeah, it's based on fear.  Fear of God is often mentioned in the Bible.
If God exists as He's portrayed in the Bible and He appeared to you, you would be frightened.
But then He would tell you not to be scared.
But I don't put too much stock in much the Bible says, other than that God is essentially a cosmic traveler that will return to Earth someday and check on our progress.
BUt who really knows?
This is an utterly fascinating subject though!
[right][post="48261"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
My thoughts exactly Bung...I wasn't singling you out personally. When I re-read it, I thought it might have come across that way. I just love these kind of conversations.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:32 PM']There's a saying that goes something like:
"I'd rather go through life believing in God, only to die and find out He doesn't exist, rather than go through life not believing in God only to die and find out He does."
I like that.

I don't think that faith in God and science are mutually exclusive, they often choose to ignore or argue with one another--in fact, with all our technology and advancements during the 20th century, science's glaring weakness has been revealed.

And that weakness is that serious interstellar space travel is impossible for us.
That type of travel is the only way to prove truths about physics, our existence, the existence of other life, the creation of the Universe...colonizing Mars is far more realistic than creating a vehicle that can negotiate space at or above the speed of light.
The ramifications of the time lapses involved [i]even if[/i] we could build such a craft are mind-bending.
Fuck, the distances involved are mind-bending.

Furthermore, can science please explain to me our perfect existence here?
How is it that we have a perfect planet for the sustainment of life...a perfect atmosphere, a perfect amount of water, we're the perfect distance away from a mediocre star for the perfect level of electromagnetic radiation to warm and feed us through photosynthesis, we have a perfect diversity of life...
It is far too perfect a setup to have just "happened" on it's own.
And how many other worlds are out there like ours?  Or how many other worlds are out there that have alternate life forms that live in enviornments that couldn't possibly sustain human existence?

Science has a long way to go.  I love science. I also love God, but not because I'm ignorant or blind.  I just wonder if we'll ever get a peek behind the curtain (without having to die first!).
I just don't know.
[right][post="48257"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote]That quote always sounded to me like it comes out of fear. Don't you think that God would know who truly believed in him or not? This is of course, if it is a punishing god who will cast you out for not believing in him (or her). I would think that god would want you to believe for the right reasons, not because you are afraid what might happen to you when you die.[/quote]


I totally agree with this thought of fear mongering and think that churchs today have issues reaching more than they could because of it. However when you look past the fear part of this and come to understand the bigger picture looking at the old testament as the angry and vengeful God and the new testament as a forgiving and loving God, and the thing that changed this was the death of Jesus you begin to understand the beauty in that one act and the amount of love it took for this one act to change the way things were in the old testament to the new.

[Jamie_B]

Now to the issue of the Scientific Method, as I haven't taken science in quite some time I had to look up what the steps were again.... The definitions I give with each of these come from dictionary.com if you care to check them

[b]Observation [/b] -The act or faculty of observing
[b]Question [/b] - An expression of inquiry that invites or calls for a reply
[b]Hypothesis [/b] - Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; [i]an assumption[/i].
[b]Prediction [/b] - Something foretold or predicted; a [i]prophecy[/i] (interesting)
[b]Experiment [/b] - A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth,[i] examine the validity of a hypothesis[/i], or determine the efficacy of something previously untried.
[b]Analysis [/b] - The separation of an intellectual or material whole into its constituent parts for individual study.
[b]Decision [/b] - The passing of judgment on an issue under consideration


#1) I observe that there is life
#2) I question where it came from
#3) I Hypothesis that there might be a "God" or Intelligent Creator
#4) I Predict that there is a "God" or Intelligent Creator
#5) I do experiments to prove there is a God (As Bung said we don't have all the nessary tools to do such)
#6) We cant proceed until #5 is complete
#7) We cant make a decision until #5 & 6 are complete either

So how is it that its not following this method? Rome wasn't built in a day. In the grand scope of time we have only come to the technology we have today relatively quickly through the industrial revolution, if one were to predict that we keep progressing at the rate we are with discovery and invention the tools some day may exist to prove complete this grand scientific method. As of now we can only hypothize that the things in the Bible are correct. This is the difference between faith and science, however science does not DISPROVE a God, rather it takes what men of 2000 years ago said and shows why it is true assuming one does not take the bible to be literal but figurative.


Now that I've anwserd your question, could you get to Jason's?