What is a zionist?

[Guest bengalrick]

there has been alot of talk about jews vs. palestine, and the true question being zionism vs. palestine... that is fair enough, except that i don't know what the hell a zionist really is... they used to be someone that supports creating the state of israel in their "homeland" of zion, right? is a zionist simply someone that supports the state of israel now? or a jew that supports it, or an israeli? or is a certain type of jew?

enlighten me... zionism has a very flimsy definition, and needs to be defined properly, otherwise it becomes another word like "terrorist", which has little meaning (or at least doesn't mean the way people use it)

[Ben]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism[/url]

I'm guessing you want BJ's definition though

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Ben' post='437707' date='Feb 6 2007, 10:30 AM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism[/url]

I'm guessing you want BJ's definition though[/quote]

right, i get the overall definition, but i'd rather have what bj thinks of (or others) when he says zionist...

[Jamie_B]

Ben pretty much covered it, also let me say when I talk about Zionism, Im not so much opposed to the idea of a Israel. What Im opposed to is how they go about their existance. It's an apartitde state and the UN itself has labeld Zionism as a form of racism (http://www.mideastweb.org/3379.htm). Im opposed to the policy that forces Palestinian to leave their homes in favor of Israel expantion because of what Zionism allows at its heart, all jews thought the world can move to Israel and be a citizen without any naturalization process. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return) This is why they are forced to expand and force the Palestinians out. This more than anything else is what I am wholely opposed to.

Now I find the Orthodox jews ideas that Judisam and Zionism are not the same interesting, but I cant speak with any authority on that. (http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_isnot_zionism.cfm)

My Iranian cowoker said it best, its a shame that these people who went through the holocost and suffered like they did are now doing the same to the Palestinian people. They dont have to, they can live in peace, its just a matter of desire to do such.

[Jamie_B]

[url="http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Israel_faltering_approach_to_peace.html"]Israel's Faltering Approach to Peace[/url]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='437724' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:28 AM']Ben pretty much covered it, also let me say when I talk about Zionism, Im not so much opposed to the idea of a Israel. What Im opposed to is how they go about their existance. It's an apartitde state and the UN itself has labeld Zionism as a form of racism (http://www.mideastweb.org/3379.htm). Im opposed to the policy that forces Palestinian to leave their homes in favor of Israel expantion because of what Zionism allows at its heart, all jews thought the world can move to Israel and be a citizen without any naturalization process. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return) This is why they are forced to expand and force the Palestinians out. This more than anything else is what I am wholely opposed to.[/quote]

Whats wrong w/ allowing their own citizens coming home? i understand the first problem you said, but as far as i can tell, creating a palestinian state would be the solution to that... hell, realistically if their was a palestinian state, i would hope that the law of return rule would not be a problem either...

[quote]Now I find the Orthodox jews ideas that Judisam and Zionism are not the same interesting, but I cant speak with any authority on that. (http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_isnot_zionism.cfm)

My Iranian cowoker said it best, its a shame that these people who went through the holocost and suffered like they did are now doing the same to the Palestinian people. They dont have to, they can live in peace, its just a matter of desire to do such.[/quote]

i agree and hope and pray for a palestinian state...

jamie, you never really explained what a zionist is... are they israels that believe in these rules zionists? you get what i'm saying? you keep throwing around the word, but your main problem is with a specific law of the israelis, which leads me to wonder what you consider the zionists... is the israeli gov't the zionists?

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='437725' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:31 AM'][url="http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Israel_faltering_approach_to_peace.html"]Israel's Faltering Approach to Peace[/url][/quote]

here in lies my main point... a true zionist is someone that support[b]ed[/b] the creation of israel... the word is still used as a shock word, but getting a true definition out of people seems to be tough...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='437730' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:44 AM']Whats wrong w/ allowing their own citizens coming home? i understand the first problem you said, but as far as i can tell, creating a palestinian state would be the solution to that... hell, realistically if their was a palestinian state, i would hope that the law of return rule would not be a problem either...
i agree and hope and pray for a palestinian state...

jamie, you never really explained what a zionist is... are they israels that believe in these rules zionists? you get what i'm saying? you keep throwing around the word, but your main problem is with a specific law of the israelis, which leads me to wonder what you consider the zionists... is the israeli gov't the zionists?[/quote]


Ob the 1st question about law of return. Do you not see how a population problem now forces the fights they are having? A palistine might help but its the law of return that is the issue I have, no nauralzation proscess? Would you be supportive of that here in the US?


Zionist slimmed down is the support (by anyone) of the Jewish state if Israel. Which means Christians, Jews, or Muslims ect ect can be Zionists.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b][color="#000080"]
As with a lot of terms ... "Zionist" can mean many things, is constantly changing in it's application, can be wrongly applied to many different groups confusing the term even more, and does not have an agreed upon definition that all sides except.

Semantics can be a difficult thing because of how fluid a term can be ... and how a term can be altered - simply by people using it differently that it's established definition.

It seems that your actual question should be ...


[center][size=3]"BJ what do you mean when you say "Zionist" ?


[color="#A0522D"]Which if that is your question then here is very nuanced and long answer. [/size][/center][/color]


To me a "Zionist" as I mean it ... is someone who has a biased un-objective view of the discriminatory policies of the State of Israel and thus the history of the founding of Israel as well ... they also usually favor the Likud parties policies in Israel = they are usually "Likudniks"

... their bias towards Israel usually embeds in them a skewed view of Israeli brutality and disproportionate military responses and their irrational fear of the amount of harm that Palestinians can cause to the state of Israel - this usually justifies to them a vast amount of violence and oppression "in the name of security".

These people if American are usually either Jewish and thus hold the policies of the state of Israel above those of the United States or Christian and thus hold Israelis policies on an equal level as those of the United States. There is also usually the embedded belief that G-D has granted the land of Palestine to the "Jews" .... Keep in mind that Zionists usually don't care that it can't be proven that today’s Jews are even the "Jews" of the bible.... But that doesn't matter.

Amongst Jewish Zionists you will also usually find the belief that "Jews" as a "race" (even though they aren't even a race) are either intellectually superior to "Goyim" (Non Jews) or that they as Jews hold a higher place in Gods pecking order based off of their assumed covenant with God. This belief will also lead to a skewed view in how valuable their lives are to others.... for instance if 1 Jew is captured ... then bombing an entire nation for his release is justified.... (See Lebanon) In addition for instance Rabbi Yaacov Perrin’s famous quote that “1 Million Arabs Are Not worth a Jewish Fingernail” symbolizes this view which is prevalent amongst Likudniks but often times not discussed out in public amongst the Goy.

Zionists who live in America also believe for instance that spying on the US for Israel is justified because “their existence hangs in the balance”, that using 15 million $ of US tax payer cash a day to give Israel is justified (Because of their irrational fear that they will be pushed into the sea without it) , and that allowing Israelis to dictate US policy in the Middle East instead of Americans or the majority of Americans --- is justified "Because American non-Zionists" can't handle the intellectual complexity of the situation i.e. (See it in their skewed terms). This also leads groups like AIPAC to dominate discussion on the issue of Occupation and hand US congressman typed up statements for them to read like Cue cards. (These statements are also included with very large cash donations to buy the congressman’s favor).

To me Zionists also usually favor the unjust occupation of the West Bank by Israel - In violation of the 1967 internationally recognized borders. And any time someone brings up these unjust policies they are branded "Anti Semitic" (not realizing that Palestinians are in fact “Semitic” themselves) or if Jewish a "Self hating" Jew (See Chomsky, Finkelstein, etc) . This cultish view of Zionists leads to a lock step view that doesn't allow for any debate on the issue of Israeli occupation of the West Bank. Thus …. The US congress and Senate are scared to debate the issue objectively (for fear of AIPAC) and the media is scared to debate the issue objectively (for fear of being branded Anti Semitic by groups like the ADL and JINSA). + Keep in mind that Jews and Zionists usually hold a disproportionate amount of positions in the US media, entertainment, and communications world) (Keep in mind they are only 2 % of the US population) --- and this large proportionately creates an atmosphere of skewed views and thus skewed support for very pro Israeli policies at the expense of American interests.


Hope this helps …. Although I fear that now you still may not be happy with the definition …. But hey the term is not easy to describe. [/color][/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='437733' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:52 AM']Ob the 1st question about law of return. Do you not see how a population problem now forces the fights they are having? A palistine might help but its the law of return that is the issue I have, no nauralzation proscess? Would you be supportive of that here in the US?
Zionist slimmed down is the support (by anyone) of the Jewish state if Israel. Which means Christians, Jews, or Muslims ect ect can be Zionists.[/quote]

imo, its a law that was absolutely essential at the time, but is a little old... but the only way to stop it, is for the people of israel to vote it out... if there is no way for them to get it out of legislatition, then i have a problem with it...

this is their right to make their own immigration laws, but i do agree that in the current system (palestine being an entity inside of israel) the system is prejudice, but the way to fix it isn't necessarily stopping that law, but creating the palestinian state... then the problem becomes one of territory, which means that israel will have to change the law...

[Guest bengalrick]

[i]Hope this helps …. Although I fear that now you still may not be happy with the definition …. But hey the term is not easy to describe. [/i]

actually i am... very informative and you toned down the shock words, which for what ever reason turn me off...

[big_dish]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='437738' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:56 AM'][b][color="#000080"]
the belief that "Jews" as a "race" (even though they aren't even a race) [/color][/b][/quote]


Ive been saying that as long as I can remember and people always want to contend that.

Jewish=religion
Caucasian, Asian, etc= race

Its really annoying to me. One of those blatent facts that people refuse to confess.

So, how can you convert to Judaism, but not to Indian?

Easy, Judaism is a religion, not a race.


OK, Im done.

And as far as this whole topic, I was a little foggy on the whole too. Until today.

I smell what the rock is cookin'

[Nelson Muntz]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='437738' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:56 AM'][b][color="#000080"]


These people if American are usually either Jewish and thus hold the policies of the state of Israel above those of the United States or Christian and thus hold Israelis policies on an equal level as those of the United States. There is also usually the embedded belief that G-D has granted the land of Palestine to the "Jews" .... Keep in mind that Zionists usually don't care that it can't be proven that today’s Jews are even the "Jews" of the bible.... But that doesn't matter.

Amongst Jewish Zionists you will also usually find the belief that "Jews" as a "race" (even though they aren't even a race) are either intellectually superior to "Goyim" (Non Jews) or that they as Jews hold a higher place in Gods pecking order based off of their assumed covenant with God. This belief will also lead to a skewed view in how valuable their lives are to others.... for instance if 1 Jew is captured ... then bombing an entire nation for his release is justified.... (See Lebanon) In addition for instance Rabbi Yaacov Perrin’s famous quote that “1 Million Arabs Are Not worth a Jewish Fingernail” symbolizes this view which is prevalent amongst Likudniks but often times not discussed out in public amongst the Goy.
[/color][/b][/quote]

To me this is the crux of the issue as the modern day Jews whole arguement is based on the fact that the Jews in Jesus's day lived in the land that is modern day Isreal. But these modern day Jews aren't the same Jews of that time period and they know they aren't. First off Judaism is a religion, not a race so anyone who adopts the religion of Judaism can claim to be Jewish. That fact alone should devalidate the Zionist arguement that they have a birth right to the land they currently occupy, also there is documented proof that certain modern day Jews actually help fund the Nazi's in order to bring about the creation of the state of Isreal. If you look at this information then you can see that zionist Jews are scam artist and liars who have illegaly and forcefully taken someone's homeland under false pre-tenses.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

Background
Main articles: Jewish history, Land of Israel, History of the Jews in the Land of Israel, and History of Palestine
The desire of Jews to return to their historical homeland was first expressed during the Babylonian captivity after 597 BC. This became a universal Jewish theme after the Jewish-Roman wars, which included the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 AD, and the exile that followed. The Jewish diaspora and those who stayed continued to see the Land of Israel as their spiritual home and as the Promised Land; there is no evidence of any interruption of the Jewish presence there for the last three millennia. For generations, the universal theme of the ingathering of the exiles and the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel carried mostly religious overtones due to the belief that the Jewish people would return to Zion with the coming of the Messiah, i.e., after divine intervention. Throughout centuries, some Jewish leaders proposed or attempted to return, but they were in a minority.

Between the 13th and 19th centuries, the number of those who made the aliyah (literally "ascent", Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel) rose mainly due to the resurgence of messianic fervor among the Jews of Spain, France, Italy, the Germanic states, Russia and North Africa. During this period, Jewish immigration was also spurred by a general decline in the status of Jews across Europe and an increase in religious persecution. The expulsion of Jews from England (1290) France (1391), Austria (1421) and Spain (the Alhambra decree 1492) were seen by many as a sign of approaching redemption and contributed to the messianic spirit of the time.

Could you in modern day imagine another country coming in and letting people live in your house and homeland while you were exiled such as the Jews were by Titus were many millenia ago? I am sure the Palestinians feel the same way about Israel right now. Over thousands of years many countries and homelands have fallen to conquering powers...just ask the Inidans. Who are we to tell the Jewish people they are not allowed to live in their homeland? I believe there should be a Palestinian state, yes, but just like everything else in the world they have failed at negotitations time and time again. The hatred runs deep from both sides. Everyone wants it all. Who are we to get involved? How do you stop thousands of years of violence and religious intolerance? Are'nt the Palestinians just as wrong as the Jewish for fighting over the homeland? Ahhh they get the sympathy right now because they are holding the short end of the stick. God...I pray the violence ends and the suffering on both sides stops, but I fear religous intolerance will keep that from ever happening.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='437746' date='Feb 6 2007, 12:04 PM']imo, its a law that was absolutely essential at the time, but is a little old... but the only way to stop it, is for the people of israel to vote it out... if there is no way for them to get it out of legislatition, then i have a problem with it...

this is their right to make their own immigration laws, but i do agree that in the current system (palestine being an entity inside of israel) the system is prejudice, but the way to fix it isn't necessarily stopping that law, but creating the palestinian state... then the problem becomes one of territory, which means that israel will have to change the law...[/quote]


Except that the law is forcing palastinies out of their homes. This is why they are angry, this is why groups like hamas and hezbollah form.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The terms have changed, but the wars are still the same.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437807' date='Feb 6 2007, 01:20 PM']Could you in modern day imagine another country coming in and letting people live in your house and homeland while you were exiled such as the Jews were by Titus were many millenia ago?[/quote]


[b]Newsflash .... all we know is that people who followed Judiasm used to live there .... not who the descendants of these people are.

That would be like saying that since Mormons used to live in Illinois .... that all current day Mormons regardless if they converted last week - have the rights to occupy Illinois.

Also we are talking about Millenia .... [color="#2E8B57"]this would be as rediculous as Native Americans claiming that since their ancestors came across the land bridge of Alaska thousands of years ago .... than now a Sioux man in South Dakota has the right to occupy someones house in China and be given land in Mongolia. [/b][/color]




[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437807' date='Feb 6 2007, 01:20 PM']I am sure the Palestinians feel the same way about Israel right now.[/quote]

[b]Yeah except they still have the actual keys to their homes. And many of their homes are still standing. Big difference. [/b]





[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437807' date='Feb 6 2007, 01:20 PM']Who are we to tell the Jewish people they are not allowed to live in their homeland?[/quote]

[b]What the fuck makes it their homeland ???

Shouldn't you have to prove that you are a direct descendant of the former owners ? Not that you simply follow the same religion ?

For all we know current day Ashkenazi Jews were 10th century KJhazarian converts ... who didn't even become Jews until 1,000 years after exile. [color="#2E8B57"]That would be like a group of white now following Native American medicine ... and thus claiming that they are the rightful owners of the U.S. [/b][/color]




[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437807' date='Feb 6 2007, 01:20 PM']Everyone wants it all.[/quote]

[b]actually no .... the PLO is asking for Israel to recognize the 1967 internationally recogized borders and leave the West Bank. [/b]




[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437807' date='Feb 6 2007, 01:20 PM']Who are we to get involved?[/quote]

[b]we already are involved .... and AIPAC which buys our congress and pushed the US into wars against Israels enemies has made us involved. [/b]

[|Tigers Johnson|]

Ahh so your saying it's a matter of time not the principle that makes it right/wrong?

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='437842' date='Feb 6 2007, 02:23 PM']Ahh so your saying it's a matter of time not the principle that makes it right/wrong?[/quote]

[color="#4B0082"][b]wow that is a powerful kind of stupid

No that is not what I was saying ...


Some of you make it so hard to remain civil - because the lack of even elementary level reasoning is so lacking in some


I am saying that you are using the fact 2,000 years ago people who followed Judaism lived in Israel - to defend the fact that in the last 50 years people who also follow Judiasm moved to Palestine and massacred, and violently threw Palestinians off their land in order to form the Jewish state of Israel.

The principles are the principles .... In one a lot of the people are still alive and have the keys to their homes .... in the other we have a group of ethnicly mixed people who read the same book as the people who lived on that land 2,000 years ago.


[/b][/color]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Nelson Muntz' post='437789' date='Feb 6 2007, 12:59 PM']To me this is the crux of the issue as the modern day Jews whole arguement is based on the fact that the Jews in Jesus's day lived in the land that is modern day Isreal. But these modern day Jews aren't the same Jews of that time period and they know they aren't. First off Judaism is a religion, not a race so anyone who adopts the religion of Judaism can claim to be Jewish. That fact alone should devalidate the Zionist arguement that they have a birth right to the land they currently occupy, [b]also there is documented proof that certain modern day Jews actually help fund the Nazi's in order to bring about the creation of the state of Isreal. If you look at this information then you can see that zionist Jews are scam artist and liars who have illegaly and forcefully taken someone's homeland under false pre-tenses.[/b][/quote]


I would like to see more on this if you could provide it.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='437857' date='Feb 6 2007, 02:37 PM']I would like to see more on this if you could provide it.[/quote]

Check out the followers of Jabotinsky. I believe there was some "collaboration" among that grouping.

[Nelson Muntz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='437857' date='Feb 6 2007, 02:37 PM']I would like to see more on this if you could provide it.[/quote]

The Rothschilds is also another name that comes to mind...
From wikipedia..
[quote]The Mayer Amschel Rothschild family (often referred to simply as The Rothschilds; anglicized pronunciation, is an eminent international banking and finance dynasty of German Jewish origin that established operations across Europe, and was ennobled by the Austrian and British governments.

Contents [hide]1 Origins
2 British war effort and Napoleon
3 Elevated to the Nobility
4 Zionism
5 French branches
6 Austrian branch
7 Italian branch
8 Modern business
9 Prominent descendants of Mayer Amschel Rothschild
10 Popular culture references
10.1 Conspiracy theories
11 Further reading
12 See also
13 External links



[edit] Origins

The family tree of the Rothschild banking families.Their success began with Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812). Born in the ghetto (called "Judengasse" or Jew Street) of Frankfurt-am-Main, he developed a finance house and spread his empire by installing each of his five sons in European cities to conduct business. An essential part of Mayer Rothschild's strategy for future success was to keep control of their businesses in family hands, allowing them to maintain full discretion about the size of their wealth and their business achievements. Mayer Rothschild successfully kept the fortune in the family by carefully arranged marriages between closely related family members. His sons were:

Amschel Mayer Rothschild (1773-1855) - Frankfurt
Salomon Mayer Rothschild (1774-1855) - Vienna
Nathan Mayer Rothschild (1777-1836) - London
Calmann Mayer Rothschild (1788-1855) - Naples
James Mayer Rothschild (1792-1868) - Paris
The Rothschild coat of arms contains a clenched fist with five arrows symbolizing the five sons of Mayer Rothschild, a reference to Psalm 127. The family motto appears below the shield, in Latin, Concordia, Integritas, Industria, (Unity, Integrity, Diligence). The family name means "Red Shield"; one can be seen in the center of the coat of arms.

Also see

Rothschild banking family of Naples
Rothschild banking family of England
Rothschild banking family of Austria
Rothschild banking family of France
Rothschild banking family of Germany

[edit] British war effort and Napoleon
The basis for the Rothschild fortune was laid during the latter stages of the Napoleonic Wars. From 1813 to 1815, the Rothschild family was instrumental in the financing of the British war effort, handling the shipment of bullion to the Duke of Wellington's army in Portugal and Spain, as well as arranging the payment of British financial subsidies to their Continental allies. Through the commissions earned on these transactions, the Rothschild fortune grew enormously.

In the early 19th century Rothschild set up a Europe-wide network of messengers and carrier pigeon stations, gathering information that could affect his investments. He soon garnered a reputation for being first with the news.

According to popular legend, when the Battle of Waterloo was being fought in June 1815, other speculators watched Rothschild's stocks in an attempt to guess who would win. Shortly after the battle ended, and long before anyone else knew who was the victor, he began selling stocks. Everyone assumed this meant Napoleon had won and Europe was lost. Panic selling ensued. When prices crashed, Rothschild bought everything in sight and made a huge profit.


[edit] Elevated to the Nobility
In 1816, four of the brothers were each granted the title of baron or Freiherr by Austrian Emperor Francis I. Nathan was elevated in 1818. As such, some members of the family used "de" or "von" Rothschild to acknowledge the grant of nobility. In 1885, Nathan Mayer Rothschild II (1840-1915) of the London branch of the family, was granted the peerage title Baron Rothschild in the Peerage of the United Kingdom.

Rothschild family banking businesses pioneered international high finance during the industrialisation of Europe and were instrumental in supporting railway systems across the world and in complex government financing for projects such as the Suez Canal. After amassing huge fortunes, the name Rothschild became synonymous with banking and great wealth, and the family was renowned for its art collecting, as well as for its philanthropy. Since 1916, members of the family have been vacationing at Megève, an exclusive ski resort in the Haute Savoie département of France, whose restaurants are among the best in the country. However, even in recreation the Rothschilds find a way to utilize their entrepreneurial skills: they own five of the village's gourmet restaurants.


[edit] Zionism
The Rothschilds were supporters of the State of Israel, and Baron Edmond James de Rothschild was a patron of the first settlement in Palestine at Rishon-LeZion. In 1917 Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was the addressee of the Balfour Declaration, which committed the British government to the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. As prominent Jews active in politics as well as business, the Rothschild family has been a target for anti-semitism throughout its history. Many family members were persecuted by the Nazis, and one, Elisabeth de Rothschild, died in Ravensbrück concentration camp; she was a Rothschild only by marriage, having been born a Catholic.

In 1901, with no male heir to take it on, the Frankfurt House closed its doors after more than a century in business. It was not until 1989 that they returned when N M Rothschild & Sons, the British investment arm, plus Bank Rothschild AG, the Swiss branch, set up a representative banking office in Frankfurt.


[edit] French branches
There are two branches of the family connected to France. The first was son James Mayer de Rothschild (1792-1868), known as "James", who established de Rothschild Frères in Paris. Following the Napoleonic Wars, he played a major role in financing the construction of railroads and the mining business that helped make France an industrial power. James' sons Gustave de Rothschild and Alphonse James de Rothschild continued the banking tradition and were responsible for raising the money to pay the compensation demanded by the occupying Prussian army in the 1870s Franco-Prussian War. Ensuing generations of the Paris Rothschild family remained involved in the family business, becoming a major force in international investment banking. The onslaught of competition from publicly traded banking giants from the United States and the European Union, who came with enormous capital at their disposal, resulted in the 2003 merger of the privately owned Rothschild banking house in France with its British banking cousins to create a single umbrella holding company.

The second French branch was founded by Nathaniel de Rothschild (1812-1870). Born in London he was the fourth child of the founder of the British branch of the family, Nathan Mayer Rothschild (1777-1836). In 1850, Nathaniel Rothschild moved to Paris, ostensibly to work with his uncle, James Mayer Rothschild. However, in 1853 Nathaniel acquired Château Brane Mouton, a vineyard in Pauillac in the Gironde département. Nathaniel Rothschild renamed the estate, Château Mouton Rothschild and it would become one of the best known labels in the world. In 1868, Nathaniel's uncle, James Mayer de Rothschild acquired the neighboring Chateau Lafite vineyard.

The Paris business suffered a near death blow in 1982 when the Socialist government of François Mitterrand nationalized and renamed it Compagnie Européenne de Banque. Baron David de Rothschild, then 39, decided to stay and rebuild, creating a new entity Rothschild & Cie Banque with just three employees and $1 million in capital. Today, the Paris operation has 22 partners and accounts for a significant chunk of the global business.


[edit] Austrian branch
In Vienna, Salomon Mayer Rothschild established a bank in the 1820s and the family became admired and respected citizens. The Austrian Rothschilds were later elevated to the nobility by the Austrian emperor for their services. The crash of 1929 brought problems and Baron Louis von Rothschild attempted to shore up the Creditanstalt, Austria's largest bank, to prevent its collapse. Nevertheless, during World War II they had to surrender their bank to the Nazis and flee the country. Their Rothschild palaces were confiscated and plundered by the Nazis. Some of these family members sought sanctuary in the United States. In 1999 the government of Austria agreed to return to the Rothschild family some 250 art treasures looted by the Nazis and absorbed into state museums after the War.


[edit] Italian branch
The Unification of Italy in 1861 eventually brought about the closure of their Naples bank.


[edit] Modern business
The company does most of its business as an M&A advisor. According to the Dealogic league tables it has a strong position in Paris and London but remains a relatively weak player in New York City. The group's ranking is number 4 among European advisers (by announced mergers and acquisitions year-to-date October 2004) with 160 deals with a value of $137.08 billion, and globally as number 9 with 197 deals with a value of $150.50 billion. Goldman Sachs leads in both Europe and globally with 258 deals worth $448.98 billion.

The annual revenue of the Rothschild group (www.rothschild.com) is €828 million with a shareholder equity of €1 billion (2003). To compete more effectively with the New York giants the Rothschild groups main branches in Paris, London, and New York merged into one holding company, Rothschilds Continuation Holdings AG, under David de Rothschild's leadership. David de Rothschild is opposed to an IPO, much like competitor Lazard's former chairman Michel David-Weill, although Lazard finally went public in 2005 after Wall Street banker Bruce Wasserstein entered the company. 20% of Rothschild Continuation Holdings AG was sold in 2005 to Jardine Strategic which is a subsidiary of Jardine, Matheson & Co. of Hong Kong.

Simon de Rothschild, the son of Robert de Rothschild, heads the Canadian Northern Railway, and its subsidiaries, as well as a number of mining and industrial operations.

Another descendant of James, Edmond de Rothschild (1926-1997) founded the LCF Rothschild Group, based in Geneva, which today extends to 15 countries across the world. The group's primary businesses include Banque Privée Edmond de Rothschild S.A., La Compagnie Benjamin de Rothschild S.A., and COGIFRANCE. Although this Group is primarily a financial entity, specialising in asset management and private banking, its activities also cover winemaking (with estates in Bordeaux, South Africa and Argentina), mixed farming, luxury hotels and yacht racing. The LCF Rothschild Group is currently presided over by Benjamin de Rothschild, Baron Edmond's son.

Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild is the Chairman of RIT Capital Partners, the UK's largest investment trust.

The Rothschild's are now active in India, one of the fastest growing economies in the world. They are known to be close to Vijayu Mallya, the flamboyant alcohol and airline industrialist. They have also invested in Sunil Mittal's agribusiness venture.


[edit] Prominent descendants of Mayer Amschel Rothschild
Alphonse James de Rothschild (1827-1905)
Sir Anthony Rothschild (1810-1876)
Bethsabée de Rothschild (1914-1999)
Charles Rothschild (1877-1923), banker and entomologist
David René de Rothschild (born 1942)
Edmond James de Rothschild (1845-1934)
Elie de Rothschild (born 1917)
Emma Rothschild (born 1948)
Guy de Rothschild (1909-)
Baron Ferdinand de Rothschild (1839-1898)
Hannah Primrose, Countess of Rosebery nee Hannah Rothschild (1851-1890)
Henri James de Rothschild (1872-1946)
Henriette Rothschild (1791-1866) married Sir Moses Montefiore (1784-1885)
James Armand de Rothschild (1878–1957)
James Mayer Rothschild (1792-1868)
Mayer Amschel de Rothschild (1818-1874)
Kathleen Annie Pannonica Rothschild (Baroness Nica de Koenigswarter) (1913-1988)
Leopold de Rothschild (1845-1917)
Lionel Nathan Rothschild (1808-1879)
Miriam Louisa Rothschild (1908-2005)
Lionel Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1868-1937)
Nathaniel de Rothschild (1812-1870)
Nathan Mayer Rothschild (1777-1836)
Nathan Mayer Rothschild, 1st Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1840-1915)
Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (born 1936)
Nathaniel Mayer Victor Rothschild, 3rd Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1910-1990)
Philippe de Rothschild (1902-88)
Philippine de Rothschild (1935-)
Simon de Rothschild (1972-)
By marriage:

Elisabeth de Rothschild (1902-1945)
Jeanne de Rothschild (1908-2003), actress
Liliane de Rothschild (1916-2003) art collector
Pauline de Rothschild (1908-1976)

[edit] Popular culture references
The story of the Rothschild family has been featured in a number of films. The 1934 Hollywood film titled The House of Rothschild, starring George Arliss and Loretta Young, recounted the life of Mayer Amschel Rothschild. Manipulated excerpts from this film were incorporated into the National Socialist film Der ewige Jude and another German film Die Rothschilds (also called Aktien auf Waterloo) was directed by Erich Waschneck in 1940. A Broadway musical entitled The Rothschilds, covering the history of the family up to 1818, was nominated for a Tony Award in 1971.

Mike Myers, playing the role of a crazy father in So I Married An Axe Murderer, makes mention of the Rothschilds as being one of the secret rulers of the world in a group known as the "Pentaverate".

In Steven Spielberg's 2005 film Munich, Eric Bana plays a Mossad agent. Regarding operational funds, a superior says to him at one time, "I want receipts. You are not working for the Baron Rothschild, you are working for Israel; a small country."

In Mamoru Oshii's Blood: The Last Vampire: Night of the Beasts, the Rothschild family hold a key position in the novel as part of the global conspiracy surrounding vampires. In the Blood+ anime series, the five Chevaliers who serve Diva, the main villain, are named after Amschel and his male sons.

In France, Rothschild is still considered a synonym for extreme wealth, though such usage is now dated. The family also has lent its name to "le goût Rothschild," a suffocatingly glamorous style of living whose decorative elements include neo-Renaissance palaces, extravagant use of velvet and gilding, a sense of Victorian horror vacui, and masterworks of art. Le goût Rothschild has much influenced interior designers such as Robert Denning, Vincent Fourcade, and others.

In the Hebrew language version of the song "If I Were a Rich Man", the title line goes 'lu ha'yiti Rothschild, literally if I were a Rothschild. Similarly the Yiddish version is ven ich bin a Rothschild, meaning the same thing.

[edit] Conspiracy theories
Members of the Rothschild family figure in some conspiracy theories. In Illuminati conspiracy theories, they are portrayed as one of thirteen dynastic bloodlines that secretly rule the world. New World Order conspiracy theories present the Rothschilds, along with the Rockefellers and DuPonts, as the real rulers or would-be rulers of the world.

Extreme cults also support Rothschild conspiracy theories, often espousing severe anti-semitism. One such organization, the Necedah Shrine Cult, has Mary Ann Van Hoof supposedly receiving visions from the Virgin Mary telling her that the Rothschilds are "mongrel yids (Jews)" bent on imposing world domination through international banking and the work of their "satanic secret society."[1] She also claims that the Rothschilds and other Jews have subverted the Roman Catholic Church. [2] The British author David Icke has written extensively on this theme. Some members of the Nation of Islam, as well as a tiny minority of the otherwise peaceable Nation of Gods and Earths, take this view as well.[/quote]

[Nelson Muntz]

[quote]It [America]has succumbed to Zionism, the Black Plague of our times. The Conspiracy of Zion goes back many centuries. It is spelled out in the Protocols. The Protocols estimated a timetable of a century for its triumph which has proved amazingly accurate. Today, America lives in Silverstein Towers in Wolfowitz America. Let history note our vaunted military deserted US. How did this happen?

First, let us distinguish between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an ancient religion going back to antiquity; its bible is the Old Testament. Modern Zionism is a political movement going back 150 years; its bible is the Protocols of the Members of the Elders of Zion. The success of Zionism is due to the immense sponsoring wealth of the Rothschild Dynasty and its astonishing political genius and cunning. It concocted a homeland in Palestine to unify World Jewry for its purposes. Very few people have read the Protocols; this was their undoing. There is no question that the Protocols accurately predict, as of a century ago, exactly what is happening in the world today. And Zionism is the thread that links all events. Zionism means to rule the world from Jerusalem.

Historically, Jews have had a poor reputation. It is their culture of money. They have never learned that humanity is fulfilled by Nature, Love, Art and Effort. They think it is Money and Power. They never assimilate in a society; they always strive for preference and superiority. Over centuries they have devised a myriad of ways to transfer the wealth of a society into their pockets including monopolies and gouging, money lending and usury, tax evasion and bankruptcy, endless financial frauds and swindles and speculation. They are a financial vortex. They are pariahs everywhere they settle. They bewail their "myth of victim-hood" when they are actually the predators. Benjamin Franklin called them "vampires". He knew them from Europe and did not want them in America. Yet today America hosts almost half of the world's Jewish population as their base of global power. The leadership and core of Zionism are called "Jews"; they brought an entirely new dimension to Judaism.

Most "Jews" in Europe and America today are descended from a race of Asians (Khazars) who immigrated into Europe in the Dark Ages and adopted the culture of Judaism. They have no connection whatsoever with Palestine. George Washington despised them. Benjamin Franklin called them "Asiatics". Actually, they are atheists. Judaism is their cloak for conspiracy. Their papacy is the invisible Rothschild Dynasty. They call religious Jews "their lesser brethren" and exploit them for political purposes. "Anti-Semitism" is a myth, a canard to bolster their image as "victims" as well as a political shiv. They brought to Judaism political corruption, subversion of government, societal destruction, financial crises and panics, depressions and even wars per the Protocols. The list is as long as Jacob Marley's chain. Two hundred years ago, Thomas Jefferson said, "We have no paupers". Today America has fifty million paupers and another fifty million on the edge of poverty. The American Dream is gone. Franklin's vampires have plundered a beautiful and bountiful nation. They now hold a majority of American wealth.

War
Zionists have "had a hand" in every American war. The Civil War was not about slavery; it was about control of the country, the Rothschild Northern banks vs. Southern agrarians. The Robber Barons of the 19th century were financed by Rothschild, placing control of American industry in a few hands controlled by Rothschild. The greatest traitor in American history is not Benedict Arnold but Louis Brandeis, the Father of Zionism in America. Brandeis, Supreme Court Justice and blackmailer (of Wilson), prepared the Balfour Declaration with Rothschild which slaughtered 150,000 Americans in World War I for World Zionism, bringing it to world power. World Zionism declared World War II on Germany in 1933 from New York. Behind the scenes Zionists have involved America in all of the wars of the 20th century for World Zionism, World Oil and World Banking, all invisible Rothschild monopolies. War debt "fills their cashboxes" as well as the graveyards.

Financial crises
Depressions and financial crises and panics transfer immense wealth to them as admitted in their Protocols. They cause it by a sudden coordinated withdrawal of immense amounts of money and/or credit like the Great Depression or the Asian Crisis. They know it is coming (because they cause it) and safeguard their own wealth. When prices collapse, their wealth returns and buys valuable properties and assets at bargain prices. The history of the United States is dotted with depressions, recessions, financial crises and panics: 1817, 1837, 1869, and every decade thereafter to the end of the century and a very severe one in 1907 to prepare for the Rothschild Federal Reserve. Then the Crash of 1929 (withdrawal of money) followed by the Great Depression (withdrawal of credit) and endless war and escalating war debt ever since. Again and again, they have devastated the burgeoning wealth of other minorities.

Money and Debt
Prices remained stable in America for more than a century until the Rothschild Federal Reserve in 1913. Since then the Fed has so inflated our currency that costs have escalated to twenty time 1913 costs to support the Rothschild debt money supply. Rothschild currency always requires a huge tax to support the interest payments like an income tax or a value added (national sales) tax. But wages have not kept up and wages bear the bulk of taxation. This has forced the mothers out of the home to become taxpayers and destroyed the family. And the children are abandoned. Tragically, the same thing happened in Ireland in the 1840's. England needed more taxpayers to support its Rothschild debt currency and millions of Irish peasants lived in farming communes, paying no taxes. By heavy taxation of the land-owners, the peasants were forced off the land. There was plenty of food in Ireland but they had no Rothschild money to buy it; they starved or emigrated. The population was cut in half. Rothschild money rules the world. The world is suffocating under the weight of its debt to the Rothschild World Banking Empire. Nations pay the usurious interest over and over but the debt is never paid. For millennia, usury was considered racketeering, today it is the norm.

The Federal Reserve
The Federal Reserve is undoubtedly their most destructive enterprise. It drains trillions of dollars from the American people for the Rothschild Banking Empire. It controls the money, finance, employment and entire economy of the American people and does not account for one cent. It is secret. You have to trust the greatest liars, propagandists and hoaxers in history. It is responsible for our employment and has "globalized" twenty million American jobs. And half of the remaining jobs in America do not pay family subsistent wages. It is astonishing that people would permit this. Yet its counterparts exist in most countries of the world. It's the same with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

The Media
The Protocols boast the mass media has "fallen into their hands". They control the entire industry in America from television to book retailing including national newspapers and magazines. They make or break candidates for public office and narrow the choice of the electorate to their advantage. They have used it to brainwash and mislead the American people and advance the cause of Zionism. It filters all news through screens beneficial to Zionism. They demonize their opposition and deify their supporters. Americans, wrapped in the cocoon of television, are isolated from reality. They would do well to turn off all television news and begin to think for themselves.

Political Corruption
Zionists thrive on political corruption. Behind the scenes, they bribe and badger the government constantly. AIPAC et. al have been successful in installing their web throughout government. They know in advance what every branch and department of government is doing. They have subverted American elections and culled the Senate of all opposition, producing near unanimous votes. They are doing the same in the House. They control both Republican and Democratic Parties and have marginalized all Independents and Third Parties. They watch the appointment of judges and have their media and their many labels ready for an appointment they do not approve. They routinely bribe the President and manipulate him like an organ grinder's monkey. Truman was paid two million dollars to approve the state of Israel to fund his reelection. Election machines are "fixed"; elections are a sham; republican government, ended. The American people have succumbed like lemmings, as predicted in the Protocols.

Organizations and Factions
Zionists form endless organizations like AIPAC and MADD to tear at and reform government and the fabric of the society. Then more organizations of their organizations give the appearance of a large political movement when in fact there are really only a few like a cat hiking its back up. In the vacuum of legislative cowardice, they bring many lawsuits before selected judges who adjudicate their wishes. AIPAC boasts it controls Washington; MADD has criminalized thirty million Americans. Zionist "hate cells" are everywhere, watching everything. Their abuse and insults are to free speech what puns are to humor, the cesspool.

Bankruptcy and Taxes
The bankruptcy laws are the "promised land". They cancel their lawful obligations to banks and creditors who pass the costs on to everyone else while their money is secreted. When the people start this, it is quickly proscribed. Their vast wealth in America is exempt from all taxation and their investment income and inheritance taxes are being replaced by a national sales tax.

The Holocaust
The Holocaust is venerated around the globe. Shrines are required at public expense in every locality. It is drummed into the heads of our children in school like a state religion. To investigate or deny it is called criminal. Almanacs state the world population of Jews as constant from 1938 to 1948, around fifteen million, the same as 1925. The Jewish population in Europe also remained the same, about nine million. The biggest "Holocaust" in Europe was the starvation, murder and torture of millions of Germans under the Morganthau Plan and the extortion of nearly a quarter trillion dollars in a half century for "poor little" Israel. (Read 'The Holocaust Industry' by Prof Norman Finkelstein). The generations of World War II are passing away but Holocaust "survivors" collecting reparations have tripled. It has proved a very profitable institution. So, of course, almanacs are attacked and the FBI wants to reclaim all almanacs as "aids to terrorism". In Protocol America, Terrorism, like so many Zionist subterfuges, is really Anti-Zionism.

The Takeover
In realization of the final phases of the Protocols, a minority of less than two percent of the people are taking over all important positions of Money and Power in America. They monopolize our Government, Education, Media, Banking and Finance, entire Industries, Professional Associations, etc. (Look up the heads of all major universities.) They constitute the authority figures in all matters in their mass media. This is to subliminally demonstrate their superiority. They thrive on double standards. A Dreyfus or a Klinghoffer is a world crisis but a Corrie or a USS Liberty is a "mishap". If this were another minority, the media would be up in arms, clear proof of conspiracy.

A Brave New World
The American "Experiment of 1776" has failed. Imagine a Kafka government ruling the entire planet from Jerusalem with one family dynasty as absolute despot. Read the Protocols. The continental unions like the EU and NAFTA and all treaties, international organizations like World Trade, IMF, World Bank, and NATO are designed to bring this about. It has been planned for many decades. There will be a global currency. There will be continuous crises, military, economic and financial. The wars of the Protocols have begun. Opportunities, employment and incomes will be strictly regulated; excess populations exterminated. Education and educators will be controlled; social progress rolled back to the 19th century. Personal rights and liberties will be only memories. Dissent will be crushed All citizens will observe each other and required to report any infraction even within families. Secret police are everywhere; the work camps are built. The state religion will be Judaism; all others banned. Parochial systems of education will be closed. This vast conspiracy against mankind is very real and America is the stepping-stone. America has been a Zionist controlled state for many decades without the knowledge or consent of its people. Its ruthlessness is proved by Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City and Silverstein Towers. Zionism invented nuclear weapons and the humanicide of tens of millions of civilian populations and children in World War II. This is the Brave New World of the Protocols. God bless America (Israel); God help our children. ENJOY!

Benjamin Franklin warned, if these 'Asiatics' are allowed into this country,

"Our children will be working in their fields while they sit in their counting houses".

Wal-mart? And remember, this Brave New World could be avoided not by mighty armies or HAARP weapons but by a few simple words, to wit, An annual tax of fifty percent of all personal wealth, income and property in excess of five millions instead of endless wage and sales taxes.

"The powers of the government for the collection of taxes are perfect. They fall principally on the rich; it is a general desire to make them contribute the whole money we want." -Thomas Jefferson[/quote]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]It [America]has succumbed to Zionism, the Black Plague of our times. The Conspiracy of Zion goes back many centuries. It is spelled out in the Protocols. The Protocols estimated a timetable of a century for its triumph which has proved amazingly accurate.[/quote]


[b]Nelson Muntz .... although you and me probably agree on some of these issues .... I would not utilize arguments that propogate the "Protocols of Zion" storie as actually happening .... they have been shown to be a fraud.

Now if you want to argue that real life is copying the Protocols of Zion then that is one argument .... but there is no doubt that they aren't authentic.



[color="#0000FF"]Sometimes with these things you have to be careful .... because groups as well that want to deligitimize one's viewpoint will take a bunch of things that are true ... and then lay the proverbial "turd" in the punchbowl to deligitimize everything previously said.

For instance if I said that the "US never found WMD's in Iraq because Aliens took them". The first part of my sentence would be correct .... but from the last part my argument would be hurt because people would think I am crazy.

Now if I was someone who wanted to make those saying we never found WMD's look bad .... I would hold that sentence up as an example for instance


[color="#0000FF"]Person A: [i]"The U.S. never found WMD's in Iraq"[/i]

Person B: "[i]Oh you must be one of those quacks that think Aliens took them"[/i][/color][/color]
[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]Also it is important I believe to realize that we all do not share agreement on all of our opinions.

For instance Nelson Muntz has taken the issue even further than I believe it should go.


I believe that some of his arguments about intl banking, the Rothchilds etc have merit and are true .... however it also appears to me like he may be utilizing his information from an uncited "Hate site" that takes everything 2 steps to far.


And this displays the difficulty with being against Israeli brutality in the West Bank ... and not being lumped into all of the other arguments or theories of "Jewish" world domination etc. [/b]