Dunn vows improvement

[GinnDaMan7]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='442994' date='Feb 19 2007, 09:41 PM']If Dunn was traded for a 3 or 4 picther, this team would not win 75 games this year. You guys are crazy. Take Dunn out of our lineup, and who will be [b]feared [/b]on this team? Do you think Griff or Edwin will see a single pitch without Dunn in there? WHo on this team has any pop besides Edwin and maybe Griff? Dunn, like it or not, is our ONLY power hitter and he does that well.

For those to think that he should be a singles hitter or a doubles hitter, is insane. Yes he strikes out, yes his fielding is terrible but the man does what he is [b]paid[/b] to do. Hit HRs (11th in ML), drive in RBIs (50), get total bases (52) and get on base (52).
Oh and all you haters, chew on these [b]stats[/b] for Dunn...

Games - 160 (1st for reds)
Runs - 99 (1st for reds)
Hits - 131 (3rd for reds - 1 hit behind Hatteburg)
HRs - 40 (1st for reds)
RBIs - 92 (1st for reds)
TBs - 275 (1st for reds)
Walks - 112 (1st for reds - 60 more than any other red)
OBP - .365 (2nd on reds behind Hatte)
SLG - 2nd on reds behind Ross
Grounded in double play - 6th (BP, Ross, Griff, Edwin, and Clayton all had more)
XBH - 1st on Reds
OPS - 2nd on Reds behind Ross

So then negatives ...
Ks (194 - 1st for reds)
Avg .234 - 7th out of regulars

Also, if you look at his D, he had 12 errors on the year. His Fielding % was .960. Not great. However, he is on this team to make plays with his bat, not glove.
I dont give a FUCK about Ks or AVG ... try replacing his positives on this team. For anyone not to want Dunn on this team for his offense is CRAZY.

Dunn is irreplaceable right now unless you can swing for a player who puts up the numbers he does.

On top of that, he has yet to hit his prime.[/quote]

If you want to play the stat game why don't we look at the stats that really count, and compare Dunn and Pujols over the past 4 years.

[b]RISP:[/b]
Dunn - .235
Pujols - .362

[b]RISP w/2 out:[/b]
Dunn - .215
Pujols - .356

[b]Late Inning Pressure:[/b]
Dunn - .245
Pujols - ..331

[b]BA Sept.-Oct.:[/b]
Dunn - .215
Pujols - .336

Salary for 2007:
Dunn - 10.5 million
Pujols - 15 million

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......Feared. Thats probably not the word that I would use to describe Dunn. When your over 100 B.A. points off a consumate pro like Albert in 3 of the 4 most telling stats you shouldn't be paid anywhere near what Pujols is making. He deserves to be paid for the 40 souveniers he puts into the stands every year. Let's see, thats $14.99 per ball, at about 40 per year, this will put him at about $600.00 per year, give or take.

Fact is the guy just doesn't produce when his team needs him to step up, yea at any time he can launch it a mile and make us stand up and say our oohs and aahs, but he just can't be depended on to do it when it counts. All of his stats have declined every year since he broke into the majors, he has become one of those guys who made a splash, got paid, and now takes the winters off. He must think being a ballplayer is a 8 months on 4 months off type of job, someone needs to step up to him and say 'Look son, you wanna take 4 months off, go be a teacher, your making 10 mil. to work year round to be the best you can be, there are 100 players in the farm system who would kill to be in your shoes. You need to earn your money.'

Unlike Dunn, guys like Pujols are refining their game in the offseason and working on the things they struggled with the year before. Thats why they are feared and get pitched around in the big games.

So, until I see a sizable reduction in K's, more coming through in the clutch, and more of an effort in the offseason I'm going to be a Dunn hater.

[Jason]

The frustrating thing about Dunn is he could be so much better if he would just work harder. Yes, he can hit 40+ homers, draw 100 walks, and drive in 90+ runs. But he will hit .240, and probably .220 with men on, strike out 180+ times, and his homers usually come with no one on and at meaningless times. When is the last time he hit a walk off, or drove in a game winning run late in the game?

[big_dish]

Dunns RBI's and HRs are basically at a point in the game where they have little to no impact on the outcome anyway... Its when he constantly fucks up in crunchtime where the team is impacted.

He doesnt suck, and he's not the worst player, but he certainly isnt close to being the best on the team.

Yes, he can change the game with one swing of the bat, its called being down 1 run in the bottom of the nith with the bases loaded and a 3-2 count, and [b]swinging[/b] at a ball in the dirt to end the game. Thats the only swing of his that changes shit.

His stats are like a RBs stats with a huge lead, the stats didnt pile up getting the lead, they were there as a result of no pressure to do anything special anymore.

[Who-Dey_Show]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='442994' date='Feb 19 2007, 10:41 PM']If Dunn was traded for a 3 or 4 picther, this team would not win 75 games this year. You guys are crazy. [b]Take Dunn out of our lineup, and who will be feared on this team? Do you think Griff or Edwin will see a single pitch without Dunn in there? [/b] WHo on this team has any pop besides Edwin and maybe Griff? Dunn, like it or not, is our ONLY power hitter and he does that well.

For those to think that he should be a singles hitter or a doubles hitter, is insane. Yes he strikes out, yes his fielding is terrible but the man does what he is paid to do. Hit HRs (11th in ML), drive in RBIs (50), get total bases (52) and get on base (52).
Oh and all you haters, chew on these stats for Dunn...

Games - 160 (1st for reds)
Runs - 99 (1st for reds)
Hits - 131 (3rd for reds - 1 hit behind Hatteburg)
HRs - 40 (1st for reds)
RBIs - 92 (1st for reds)
TBs - 275 (1st for reds)
Walks - 112 (1st for reds - 60 more than any other red)
OBP - .365 (2nd on reds behind Hatte)
SLG - 2nd on reds behind Ross
Grounded in double play - 6th (BP, Ross, Griff, Edwin, and Clayton all had more)
XBH - 1st on Reds
OPS - 2nd on Reds behind Ross

So then negatives ...
Ks (194 - 1st for reds)
Avg .234 - 7th out of regulars

Also, if you look at his D, he had 12 errors on the year. His Fielding % was .960. Not great. However, he is on this team to make plays with his bat, not glove.
I dont give a FUCK about Ks or AVG ... try replacing his positives on this team. For anyone not to want Dunn on this team for his offense is CRAZY.

Dunn is irreplaceable right now unless you can swing for a player who puts up the numbers he does.

On top of that, he has yet to hit his prime.[/quote]


I read an article from a pitcher in the NL Central, I think he was on the Cardinals. He was saying that he would rather pitch to Adam Dunn, than anyone one else on the Reds roster, with the bases loaded and up one in the bottom of the ninth. Because Dunn strikes out so much he is an easy out. Take it for what its worth.

I would much rather have Deno playing left field that that fat slob the Reds have playing there now!

[Palmer4HOF]

Runners On:
Dunn - .217 avg .372 OBP
Hatte - .299 avg . 400 OBP
Edwin- .325 avg . 416 OBP
Phillips .304 avg .362 OBP
Griff .235 .301

RISP:
Dunn - .221 avg .394 OBP
Hatte - .277 avg . 384 OBP
Edwin .303 avg . 392 OBP
Phill .297 avg .364 OBP
Griff .216 .295


RISP w/2 outs:
Dunn - .246 avg .410 OBP
Hatte - .200 avg .369 OBP
Edwin . 280 avg .390 OBP
Phill .197 avg .293 OBP
Griff .182 .270

Bases Loaded
Dunn - .273 avg .214 OBP
Hatte - .200 avg .167 OBP
Edwin .467 avg .471 OBP
Phil .294 .278 OBP
Griff .333 .364



Few things to take from this:
1) Dunn gets on base more than anyone of our top 5 hitters with RISP and 2 outs, and also has the 2nd best average
2) With RISP, Dunn gets on base more than our top 5 hitters

Also, I am not saying Dunn is great in terms of this league. My whole point this whole time is that if you take Dunn off this team, you will lose a SIGNIFICANT part of our offense. It's not all about average. Dunn gets on base the 2nd most out of any of our players.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='TDB' post='443005' date='Feb 19 2007, 11:16 PM']You left out the most important statistic people use to bash Dunn, myself included: batting average with runners in scoring position.

Don't compare Dunn's numbers to the rest of the team, but compare them to the other 40 homer hitters in the majors. He's the worst all around offensive player among power hitters in the league.

The Reds have players whom are much more reliable than Dunn for statistics that matter more to me than homers ever could... BA w/ RISP, overall BA, and defense.[/quote]

And you Dunn bashers fail to realize it's not all about hitting for average with RISP. Dunn gets on base more than any Red with RISP (of the 5 main hitters).

[quote name='GinnDaMan7' post='443031' date='Feb 20 2007, 04:52 AM']If you want to play the stat game why don't we look at the stats that really count, and compare Dunn and Pujols over the past 4 years.

[b]RISP:[/b]
Dunn - .235
Pujols - .362

[b]RISP w/2 out:[/b]
Dunn - .215
Pujols - .356

[b]Late Inning Pressure:[/b]
Dunn - .245
Pujols - ..331

[b]BA Sept.-Oct.:[/b]
Dunn - .215
Pujols - .336

Salary for 2007:
Dunn - 10.5 million
Pujols - 15 million

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......Feared. Thats probably not the word that I would use to describe Dunn. When your over 100 B.A. points off a consumate pro like Albert in 3 of the 4 most telling stats you shouldn't be paid anywhere near what Pujols is making. He deserves to be paid for the 40 souveniers he puts into the stands every year. Let's see, thats $14.99 per ball, at about 40 per year, this will put him at about $600.00 per year, give or take.

Fact is the guy just doesn't produce when his team needs him to step up, yea at any time he can launch it a mile and make us stand up and say our oohs and aahs, but he just can't be depended on to do it when it counts. All of his stats have declined every year since he broke into the majors, he has become one of those guys who made a splash, got paid, and now takes the winters off. He must think being a ballplayer is a 8 months on 4 months off type of job, someone needs to step up to him and say 'Look son, you wanna take 4 months off, go be a teacher, your making 10 mil. to work year round to be the best you can be, there are 100 players in the farm system who would kill to be in your shoes. You need to earn your money.'

Unlike Dunn, guys like Pujols are refining their game in the offseason and working on the things they struggled with the year before. Thats why they are feared and get pitched around in the big games.

So, until I see a sizable reduction in K's, more coming through in the clutch, and more of an effort in the offseason I'm going to be a Dunn hater.[/quote]


Wait. Did you just compare Dunn to Pujols? That would be like comparing Rudi to LT. That's the dumbest post so far in this thread. Rudi gets paid like a top 10 RB, does that mean he isn't worth shit either?


[quote name='Jason' post='443059' date='Feb 20 2007, 09:04 AM']The frustrating thing about Dunn is he could be so much better if he would just work harder. Yes, he can hit 40+ homers, draw 100 walks, and drive in 90+ runs. But he will hit .240, and probably .220 with men on, strike out 180+ times, and his homers usually come with no one on and at meaningless times. When is the last time he hit a walk off, or drove in a game winning run late in the game?[/quote]

Off the top of my head, I believe he hit a walkoff HR 2 years ago on opening day. That's the only one I can remember without looking it up because I was there.

[quote name='big_dish' post='443089' date='Feb 20 2007, 11:36 AM']Dunns RBI's and HRs are basically at a point in the game where they have little to no impact on the outcome anyway... Its when he constantly fucks up in crunchtime where the team is impacted.

He doesnt suck, and he's not the worst player, but he certainly isnt close to being the best on the team.

Yes, he can change the game with one swing of the bat, its called being down 1 run in the bottom of the nith with the bases loaded and a 3-2 count, and [b]swinging[/b] at a ball in the dirt to end the game. Thats the only swing of his that changes shit.

His stats are like a RBs stats with a huge lead, the stats didnt pile up getting the lead, they were there as a result of no pressure to do anything special anymore.[/quote]

The thing I dont get is that I never once said Dunn was the best hitter on our team. I said this whole time Hatteburg and Edwin were.

[quote name='Who-Dey_Show' post='443187' date='Feb 20 2007, 02:17 PM']I read an article from a pitcher in the NL Central, I think he was on the Cardinals. He was saying that he would rather pitch to Adam Dunn, than anyone one else on the Reds roster, with the bases loaded and up one in the bottom of the ninth. Because Dunn strikes out so much he is an easy out. Take it for what its worth.

I would much rather have Deno playing left field that that fat slob the Reds have playing there now![/quote]


You would rather have Deno in left field? Are you fucking serious? You are bitching about Dunn's defense now?

Put Deno in our lineup instead of Dunn and see how many games we win ... I'd guess 73.

Ha!!!!!!!! Deno instead of Dunn ... .hahahahahahahahahaaha

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='443408' date='Feb 20 2007, 07:26 PM']Off the top of my head, I believe he hit a walkoff HR 2 years ago on opening day. That's the only one I can remember without looking it up because I was there.[/quote]
that was joe randa with the grand slam.

[TDB]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='443408' date='Feb 20 2007, 07:26 PM']And you Dunn bashers fail to realize it's not all about hitting for average with RISP. Dunn gets on base more than any Red with RISP (of the 5 main hitters).[/quote]

When the best I can realistically hope for from my cleanup hitter with a man on second is a walk, then I might as well turn off the television.

[sm00th_kw]

[quote name='TDB' post='442843' date='Feb 19 2007, 03:44 PM']Honestly I'd list Hatteberg, Freel, Griffey, Phillips, Encarnacion, and Ross all over Dunn.[/quote]


Ryan FUCKING Freel????? David Ross?!?!?! Good bye credibility...

[sm00th_kw]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='442994' date='Feb 19 2007, 10:41 PM']Also, if you look at his D, he had 12 errors on the year. His Fielding % was .960. Not great. However, he is on this team to make plays with his bat, not glove.[/quote]


Not great at all...but BETTER than Ryan Freel's fielding % in Right (.956)...

[sm00th_kw]

[quote name='GinnDaMan7' post='443031' date='Feb 20 2007, 04:52 AM']If you want to play the stat game why don't we look at the stats that really count, and compare Dunn and Pujols over the past 4 years.[/quote]


Why don't you compair who's batting around them?

Dunn...uh, Kearns when healthy (but never good), Scott Hatteberg, Griffy Jr. when healthy, Encarnacion (rookie), Sean Casey (nice guy), anybody I'm missing that strikes fear in the a pitcher (which nobody besides Griffey Jr. ever did).


Pujols...Jim Edmonds (future HOF), Scott Rolen (future HOF), Larry Walker (future HOF), Reggie Sanders (played in about 5 World Series), Juan Encarnacion.


A) They aren't the same kind of hitters, Pujols is all around phenominal, Dunn isn't. You compare Pujols with Ted Williams, not Adam Dunn.

B ) Pujols has had a HELLEVA' LOT BETTER supporting cast in place for the past 4- 6 years.

[sm00th_kw]

[quote name='Jason' post='443059' date='Feb 20 2007, 09:04 AM']When is the last time he hit a walk off, or drove in a game winning run late in the game?[/quote]


In terms of walk-off homer's, that would be last year against Cleveland...Walk-Off Grand Slam.

[url="http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200606300.shtml"]http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CI...200606300.shtml[/url]

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='TDB' post='443513' date='Feb 20 2007, 11:48 PM']When the best I can realistically hope for from my cleanup hitter with a man on second is a walk, then I might as well turn off the television.[/quote]

You might as well turn off your TV anyways since everything you have said in this thread makes zero sense.

For starters, Dunn only hit in the 4 hole 1/3 of the time this year. Also, I would expect Dunn to hit 2nd more this year than ever especially if Griff can stay healthy, Edwin stays hot, and Hatte can proove to hit 5th.

[JC]

[quote name='sm00th_kw' post='443721' date='Feb 21 2007, 03:07 PM']Ryan FUCKING Freel????? David Ross?!?!?! Good bye credibility...[/quote]

Freel may not be better...he may. But Freel plays with heart. He bust's his ass alll the time. Never taking a play off. If Dunn busted his ass all the time instead of half...this thread wouldn't have even made it past post 5.

Dunn has a god given talent. Freel has a lot of heart. That's why i would take Freel over Dunn.
[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='443747' date='Feb 21 2007, 04:09 PM']For starters, Dunn only hit in the 4 hole 1/3 of the time this year. Also, I would expect Dunn to hit 2nd more this year than ever especially if Griff can stay healthy, Edwin stays hot, and Hatte can proove to hit 5th.[/quote]

i think Phillips was a pretty damn good batter when he hit in the 2 hole. But he will probably end up batting 7th this year.

[TDB]

[quote name='sm00th_kw' post='443721' date='Feb 21 2007, 03:07 PM']Ryan FUCKING Freel????? David Ross?!?!?! Good bye credibility...[/quote]

9 times out of 10, I'd rather have either of those two at the plate than Adam Dunn.

[TDB]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='443747' date='Feb 21 2007, 04:09 PM']You might as well turn off your TV anyways since everything you have said in this thread makes zero sense.

For starters, Dunn only hit in the 4 hole 1/3 of the time this year. Also, I would expect Dunn to hit 2nd more this year than ever especially if Griff can stay healthy, Edwin stays hot, and Hatte can proove to hit 5th.[/quote]

Dunn hit cleanup more than most of the others did, and he hit 5th a lot as well. Either way, he's expected to drive in runs (and finishing with 92 isn't very good considering all the homers).

[sm00th_kw]

[quote name='TDB' post='443802' date='Feb 21 2007, 05:20 PM']9 times out of 10, I'd rather have either of those two at the plate than Adam Dunn.[/quote]



Well, I guess I'd rather score runs...and wait, who led the team in runs scored last year? RBI? Runs created? Offense?


Also, I saw somebody wanted to put Hatteberg in the 5 hole....why? Narron does this all the time and it just pisses the shit out of me. Why would you put a guy that simply doesn't drive runners in, but gets on base, in an RBI spot in the order? If he's still affective this year, which I have my doubts, he's the PERFECT #2 hitter...beyond that I'd say 6th or 7th. The guy just doesn't drive a whole lot of runs in, despite his high avg.

[TDB]

[quote name='sm00th_kw' post='444165' date='Feb 22 2007, 11:42 AM']Well, I guess I'd rather score runs...and wait, who led the team in runs scored last year? RBI? Runs created? Offense?[/quote]

He rarely misses a game (something I do like about Dunn), and is more able to compile those statistics accordingly. I'm more comfortable with the possibility of the Reds generating runs with Ross and Freel than I am with hoping for a Dunn dinger.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='TDB' post='444192' date='Feb 22 2007, 12:17 PM']He rarely misses a game (something I do like about Dunn), and is more able to compile those statistics accordingly. I'm more comfortable with the possibility of the Reds generating runs with Ross and Freel than I am with hoping for a Dunn dinger.[/quote]

So Dunn is penalized because he doesnt get hurt?

And you have yet to make an argument why you are more comfortable with Freel and Ross than Dunn and you have are also flip flopping all over the place.

Please tell me your ideal lineup.


Mine:
1) Freel - CF
2) Dunn - LF
3) Edwin - 3B
4) Griff - RF
5) Hatte - 1b
6) Phillips - 2b
7) Ross - C
8) Gonzo - ss


I mean you keep saying all these negatives about Dunn but you fail to provide any stats defending your arguments.

[TDB]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='444234' date='Feb 22 2007, 01:18 PM']I mean you keep saying all these negatives about Dunn but you fail to provide any stats defending your arguments.[/quote]

His strengths and weaknesses are common knowledge. Everyone is well aware of the statistics in question.

As for the lineup, I'd say I'd prefer something like this:

1. Freel
2. Phillips
3. Hatteberg
4. Griffey
5. Encarnacion
6. Dunn
7. Ross
8. Gonzalez

[TDB]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='444234' date='Feb 22 2007, 01:18 PM']So Dunn is penalized because he doesnt get hurt?[/quote]

Not at all. In fact, I commended Dunn for his durability.

[quote]And you have yet to make an argument why you are more comfortable with Freel and Ross than Dunn and you have are also flip flopping all over the place.[/quote]

The three of them (Dunn, Freel, Ross) all have a relatively good chance of getting on base, but Freel and Ross have better chances of advancing runners already on base.

[sm00th_kw]

My lineup would look like this...and I actually forgot we had Bubba Crosby until yesterday so I have to think more about where he would fit in as a player but I like him where he's at if Denorfia doesn't cut it.

Phillips - 2B...............or Phillips - 2B
Hatteberg - 1B..............Denorfia/Crosby - CF
Encarnacion - 3B...........Griffey Jr. - RF
Dunn - LF......................Encarnacion - 3B
Griffey Jr. - RF...............Dunn - LF
Ross - C........................Ross - C
Denorfia/Crosby - CF.....Conine - 1B
Gonzalez - SS................Gonzalez - SS
P...................................P


I really have no clue why people want Freel to play everyday, he's proven he can't do that and either stay healthy or stay effective. Nor is he a good baserunner.

Hatteberg is the PERFECT #2 hitter, see's a lot of pitches and puts the ball in play, its a mistake if he's anywhere else in the lineup.

I'd want Encarnacion's #3 hole but it more for the fact that I don't want a lefty, lefty, lefty 2 - 4 of my batting order. Wish Edwin had a little more power to stick him in the clean up spot...which I would still consider doing (to avoid putting Griffey and Dunn back to back).


The other line up is if you happen to be sitting Hatteberg (obviously you play Freel from time to time and lead him off)

If Denorfia proves he can't handle it everyday...platoon him and Crosby (if he proves to be worthy). Freel would be nothing more than a super sub for my team.

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='444234' date='Feb 22 2007, 01:18 PM']So Dunn is penalized because he doesnt get hurt?

And you have yet to make an argument why you are more comfortable with Freel and Ross than Dunn and you have are also flip flopping all over the place.

Please tell me your ideal lineup.
Mine:
1) Freel - CF
2) Dunn - LF
3) Edwin - 3B
4) Griff - RF
5) Hatte - 1b
6) Phillips - 2b
7) Ross - C
8) Gonzo - ss
I mean you keep saying all these negatives about Dunn but you fail to provide any stats defending your arguments.[/quote]

1) Phillips 2B
2) Dunn LF
3) Griff RF
4) Edwin 3B
5) Hatte 1B
6) Ross C
7) Freel CF
8) Gonzo SS

That is my ideal lineup for this year. Hopefully Hamilton proves his worth and takes over CF, then we would have plenty of bats to win the division and do damage in the playoffs. I do believe if Hamilton stays clean he could contribute this year (probably not till mid year or so, but Freel or Griffey will be injured by then).

Id say this team wins 78-82 this year with the team we have right now (assuming we stay healthy), if Hamilton can step in and play for us then id say we have a shot at 86-90.