|Bunghole| Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444494' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:49 PM']Are you saying the gov't would just sit on the $$$ and not spend it? I think the gov't creates plenty of jobs. Plus, I would rather a government decide how to spend the money instead of one family. That sounds alot like the Kingdom-Serf relationship BJ was talking about earlier.[/quote] What are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about government NOT spending money. What I was saying is that people should be able to will ALL their accumulated money, no matter how large or small, to WHOMEVER they wish, without ANY government intervention or additional taxation BECAUSE the accumulated monies have ALREADY been taxed as INCOME and shouldn't be taxed AGAIN. And when the government "sits on money", it actually is investing it and generating interest on it. The government doesn't ONLY spend money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444494' date='Feb 22 2007, 04:49 PM']Are you saying the gov't would just sit on the $$$ and not spend it? I think the gov't creates plenty of jobs. Plus, I would rather a government decide how to spend the money instead of one family. That sounds alot like the Kingdom-Serf relationship BJ was talking about earlier.[/quote] Rich people, or anyone with any money, don't sit on it. They invest in things that have higher returns than banks. In the stock market, as investors for start-up companies, to charity. The government deciding how to spend it is even more like a kingdom-serf relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='444498' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:55 PM']the accumulated monies have ALREADY been taxed as INCOME and shouldn't be taxed AGAIN.[/quote] [b]Actually no ... sometimes it sits in an offshore bank in Bermuda until the old fart gets on his death bed ... then they transfer back into reliable US banks for the transfer. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='444495' date='Feb 22 2007, 04:51 PM'][center][b][size=6]=[/size] [img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Illusion/392640m.gif[/img][/b][/center][/quote] Gore was a member of a political dynasty too. It's just the way things are. But you needn't worry about the Bushes in politics again for a long time to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='444501' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:57 PM']But you needn't worry about the Bushes in politics again for a long time to come.[/quote] [b]oh I'll keep my eye on that boozing slut Jenna [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='444493' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:49 PM']Why? Why shouldn't [size=4][b]you[/b][/size] get to keep the fruits of your labor? What's wrong with dynasties?[/quote] "You" should get to keep everything. The problem happens when you die. Your kids have not contributed anything to society, yet they start life with a major advantage. See Paris Hilton photos above. No wonder future American's are getting lazier and more worthless every day. Look at who their role models are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='444498' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:55 PM']What are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about government NOT spending money. What I was saying is that people should be able to will ALL their accumulated money, no matter how large or small, to WHOMEVER they wish, without ANY government intervention or additional taxation BECAUSE the accumulated monies have ALREADY been taxed as INCOME and shouldn't be taxed AGAIN. And when the government "sits on money", it actually is investing it and generating interest on it. The government doesn't ONLY spend money.[/quote] Sorry to make you so mad. It's just my opinion that [b]unearned [/b] income should be taxed, since my hard [b]earned[/b] income is being taxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444506' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:06 PM']It's just my opinion that [b]unearned [/b] income should be taxed, since my hard [b]earned[/b] income is being taxed.[/quote] [size=4][b]When a kid inherits daddys wealth .... it is like a job where they are getting paid .... [color="#FF0000"] when a Job pays you = you pay TAXES !!! [/b][/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444505' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:01 PM']"You" should get to keep everything. The problem happens when you die. Your kids have not contributed anything to society, yet they start life with a major advantage. See Paris Hilton photos above. No wonder future American's are getting lazier and more worthless every day. Look at who their role models are.[/quote] So if it's mine, isn't a major part of it what I get to do with it? If I don't get to decide, then it's not really mine--I'm just holding onto it for someone else. There are concepts in property law that might be boring but that are right on the money here. Life estate--the property is yours for the length of your life (or some measuring life in being)--you don't get to do a lot with it because you are not really the owner, you are hanging onto it for someone with superior interest fee simple absolute-- it's yours, and your heirs, forever, to do with what you will (sell, donate, whatever) fee tail- only your issue (bloodline) can get it. Abolished because it limits what can be done with property fee simple determinible--a fee simple so long as some condition is complied with-- if not, title automatically reverts to grantor fee simple subject to condition subsequent-- a fee simple so long as condition is complied with--if not, grantor has right to reenter and retake the land There is a concept in property law called the Rule Against Perpetuities, which basically states that title to a land must vest, or must not vest, not longer than 21 years after the expiration of some life in being. what does all that mean? Basically that you cannot rig something to control your property beyond the grave for too long after you die. At some point, your heirs get to decide what to do with it. this is much better than letting the government take everything. think things through to their natural consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 [size=3][color="#0000FF"][b]An Estate Tax is basically a ...[/b][/color][/size] [size=4][color="#000080"][i]"mandatory show your appreciation upon death - to America for allowing you the opportunity to live like a king [size=6]fee[/size]" [/i][/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Actium, as a CFP ®, I've been trained thoroughly on these concepts and how they impact society. I'm just stating my opinion on this issue. Like I said before, if I pay taxes on money I EARN, why shouldn't someone pay taxes on UNEARNED income? Seems pretty logical to me. Either that, or my company should 'gift' me my paycheck every month. That would make me feel pretty cool. You forgot to mention another option: take the money with you. Yes, bury it in your tomb. After all it is YOUR money. This way, the money is yours forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444522' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:40 PM']Actium, as a CFP ®, I've been trained thoroughly on these concepts and how they impact society. I'm just stating my opinion on this issue. Like I said before, if I pay taxes on money I EARN, why shouldn't someone pay taxes on UNEARNED income? Seems pretty logical to me. Either that, or my company should 'gift' me my paycheck every month. That would make me feel pretty cool. You forgot to mention another option: take the money with you. Yes, bury it in your tomb. After all it is YOUR money. This way, the money is yours forever![/quote] But the money has ALREADY been earned! And taxed! If I die right now I will be able to leave something along the lines of 300k in life insurance and properties to my wife and children...the money accumulated in my bank account as well as the life insurance premiums I pay are ALL taxed money! WHY should it be taxed again? [i]....and btw, you didn't make me mad, it's all good....[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='444522' date='Feb 22 2007, 05:40 PM']Actium, as a CFP ®, I've been trained thoroughly on these concepts and how they impact society. I'm just stating my opinion on this issue. Like I said before, if I pay taxes on money I EARN, why shouldn't someone pay taxes on UNEARNED income? Seems pretty logical to me. Either that, or my company should 'gift' me my paycheck every month. That would make me feel pretty cool. You forgot to mention another option: take the money with you. Yes, bury it in your tomb. After all it is YOUR money. This way, the money is yours forever![/quote] I like the ® after the CFP--I just hope you are trying to hide your client's $ from the gov while they're alive more than you would when dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='444565' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:36 PM']But the money has ALREADY been earned! And taxed! If I die right now I will be able to leave something along the lines of 300k in life insurance and properties to my wife and children...the money accumulated in my bank account as well as the life insurance premiums I pay are ALL taxed money! WHY should it be taxed again? [i]....and btw, you didn't make me mad, it's all good....[/i][/quote] [b]The Estate tax only applies to that $ after 2 million dollars. Thus the first 2 million is not taxed. thus this would have nothing to do with you ... or most people. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [size=4][b]An Estate tax could also be looked at as .... [color="#008000"]Rich Fucks Insurance[/color][/size] [u]Basically the government is telling the rich: [/u] [color="#006400"][i]"Listen ... if a society gets too large of disparities in wealth ... then the masses who are getting pissed on = get angry ... and eventually they revolt and jump those mansion fences and start lighting your rich asses on fire. Since we would like to prevent coups and revolts in the U.S. .... the govt is going to charge the rich a FEE upon death .... that they then add to the govt budget that allows them to pay for things like schools & healthcare for the poor and try and help with the ineuality of opportunity etc ... in the hopes that if we throw them a bone .... we will keep them just happy enough ... to keep their shivering hungry asses off all the rich peoples mansions lawns."[/b][/i][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='444581' date='Feb 23 2007, 12:52 AM'][size=4][b]An Estate tax could also be looked at as .... [color="#008000"]Rich Fucks Insurance[/color][/size] [u]Basically the government is telling the rich: [/u] [color="#006400"][i]"Listen ... if a society gets too large of disparities in wealth ... then the masses who are getting pissed on = get angry ... and eventually they revolt and jump those mansion fences and start lighting your rich asses on fire. Since we would like to prevent coups and revolts in the U.S. .... the govt is going to charge the rich a FEE upon death .... that they then add to the givt budget that allows them to pay for things like schools & healthcare for the poor etc ... in the hopes that if we throw them a bone .... we will keep them just happy enough ... to keep their shivering hungry asses off all the rich peoples mansions lawns."[/b][/i][/color][/quote] This is, in essence, why the estate tax was passed in the first place. To encourage charitable donations by the living, and to prevent an accumulation of weatlth by a small handfull of people who across a few generations would come to hold excessive power in society due to their excessive wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='444581' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:52 PM'][size=4][b]An Estate tax could also be looked at as .... [color="#008000"]Rich Fucks Insurance[/color][/size] [u]Basically the government is telling the rich: [/u] [color="#006400"][i]"Listen ... if a society gets too large of disparities in wealth ... then the masses who are getting pissed on = get angry ... and eventually they revolt and jump those mansion fences and start lighting your rich asses on fire. Since we would like to prevent coups and revolts in the U.S. .... the govt is going to charge the rich a FEE upon death .... that they then add to the givt budget that allows them to pay for things like schools & healthcare for the poor etc ... in the hopes that if we throw them a bone .... we will keep them just happy enough ... to keep their shivering hungry asses off all the rich peoples mansions lawns."[/b][/i][/color][/quote] If the estate tax is the only thing keeping the masses from revolting, then we're on our way out anyway. I'll tell my oligarch robber baron friends to man the helicopters and escape! Fortunately they siphoned off what they would have paid in estate tax to a slush fund in Israel. There they will rebuild, at least until Israel starts assessing the Zionism Tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='444582' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:54 PM']This is, in essence, why the estate tax was passed in the first place. To encourage charitable donations by the living, and to prevent an accumulation of weatlth by a small handfull of people who across a few generations would come to hold excessive power in society due to their excessive wealth.[/quote] Or alternatively, it was passed to help pay for wasteful pyramid scheme policies by the government as a general accounts receivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='444583' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:54 PM']If the estate tax is the only thing keeping the masses from revolting, then we're on our way out anyway.[/quote] [color="#A0522D"][b]It is only "one of the bones" that the govt throws. This along with pornography, sports, tabloid news, the entertainment industry, fluoride in our water, an overly medicated population, and a very busy society working too much to buy all the shit we don't need that commercials have convinced us we do = are all part of the [u]bones to keep the masses happy package.[/u] [/b][/color] [quote name='Actium' post='444583' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:54 PM']Fortunately they siphoned off what they would have paid in estate tax to a slush fund in Israel. There they will rebuild[/quote] [b]I guess seeing that Israel without Americas support would fall quickly .... Paraguay must have been their plan B. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img] [/b] [center][color="#0000FF"]---->[/color] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1928928,00.html"]Paraguay in a spin about Bush's alleged 100,000 acre hideaway[/url] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img][/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='444587' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:57 PM']Or alternatively, it was passed to help pay for wasteful pyramid scheme policies by the government as a general accounts receivable.[/quote] Yeah. See, that's why I don't like it. If it was set up in such a way whereby the money was GUARANTEED to go to programs/people that really needed it, then I'd soften my stance on it. But as a general rule, I don't like it because the money generated is just as likely to be wasted on some pork politics or some garbage program that doesn't do shit for anyone. AND, again, that money has ALREADY BEEN TAXED AS INCOME!!!!! Rich people invest...capital gains tax. Rich people earn big salaries...highest tax bracket in the US. There are so many fucking taxes that I don't know why we feel like we need to intervene in the private family wealth issue. BJ, you stated that if it's under 2 million, then it isn't applicable. I admit my ignorance on the specifics...is there then a sliding scale for the Estate tax based on just how much wealth we're talking about, or is it a flat percentage? As in, if I were an anonymous millionaire's son that bequeathed me $10 million, would that be taxed at the same rate as if I were Sam Walton's sole heir to his fortune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='444603' date='Feb 22 2007, 08:13 PM']BJ, you stated that if it's under 2 million, then it isn't applicable. I admit my ignorance on the specifics...is there then a sliding scale for the Estate tax based on just how much wealth we're talking about, or is it a flat percentage? As in, if I were an anonymous millionaire's son that bequeathed me $10 million, would that be taxed at the same rate as if I were Sam Walton's sole heir to his fortune?[/quote] [b]The first 2 million don't get taxed (this is 4 million for a couple). The applicable exclusion will increase to $3,500,000 in 2009 (7 mill for a couple). After that the Estate Tax can go as high as 45 % above the first 2 million. So remember if Bob dies and leaves 100 million to his only son. The son ends up taking home around 57 million. The kid takes home the first 2 million ... and then pays 45 % of the other 98 million. Also remember = If an asset or $ is left to a spouse or a charitable organization, the tax does not apply. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [size=4][b][u][quote]Arguments in favor of having an Estate Tax[/u][/b][/size] Proponents of the estate tax argue that it serves to prevent the perpetuation of wealth, free of tax, in wealthy families and that it is necessary to a system of progressive taxation. Proponents point out that the estate tax affects only estates of considerable size (presently, over $2 million USD, and over $4 million USD for couples) and provides numerous credits (including the unified credit) that allow a significant portion of even large estates to escape taxation. Regarding the tax's effect on farmers, proponents counter that this criticism is misguided as there is an exemption built into the law that is specifically designed for family-owned farms. Furthermore, supporters argue that many large fortunes do not represent taxed income or savings, that wealth is not being taxed but merely the transfer of that wealth, and that many large fortunes represent unrealized capital gains which (because of a step up in basis at the time of death) will never be taxed as capital gains under the federal income tax. Proponents further argue that the estate tax serves to encourage charitable giving, one way in which individuals can avoid paying the tax. A 2004 report by the Congressional Budget Office found that eliminating the estate tax would reduce charitable giving by 6-12 percent. Another argument in favor of the estate tax relates to comparative incentives. Proponents argue that the estate tax is a better source of revenue than the income tax, which is said to directly disincentivize work. While all taxes have this effect to a degree, some argue that the Estate Tax is less of a disincentive since it does not tax money that the earner spends, but merely that which he or she wishes to give away for non-charitable purposes. Moreover, some argue that allowing the rich to bequeath unlimited wealth on future generations will disincentivize hard work in those future generations. Proponents of the estate tax tend to object to characterizations that it operates as a double or triple taxation. They either note that such double and triple taxation is common (through income, property, and sales taxes, for instance), or argue that the estate tax should be seen as a single tax on the inheritors of large estates. Some proponents of the estate tax also point to historical precedent for limiting inheritance. This is cited for the proposition that unlimited inheritance tends to destabilize societies, as well as that current generational transfers of wealth are greater than they have been historically.[/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [size=4][u][b][quote]The "Death Tax" neologism[/b][/u][/size] Many opponents of the estate tax refer to it as the "death tax" in their public discourse, as a death must occur before any tax on the deceased's assets can be realized. The term was popularized in a famous memorandum written by Republican pollster Frank Luntz. [b]He recommended that the party use the term "death tax"[/b] when referring to the estate tax, writing that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not". Linguist George Lakoff alleges in his book Don't Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate that this is a [b]deliberate and carefully calculated propaganda tactic[/b]. Lakoff claims that the phrase "death tax" and similar neologisms are a [b]method of psychologically framing the debate in favor of repealing the estate tax[/b], because the human mind immediately and automatically produces unpleasant images of an evil tax collector appearing to rummage through the valuables of a newly bereaved family whenever the words "death tax" are heard or read. Lakoff says that pervasive public use of the phrase induces even some proponents of the estate tax to repeat it and thus unwittingly spread the Republicans' desired frame to others.[/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='444597' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:06 PM'][color=#A0522D][b]It is only "one of the bones" that the govt throws. This along with pornography, sports, tabloid news, the entertainment industry, fluoride in our water, an overly medicated population, and a very busy society working too much to buy all the shit we don't need that commercials have convinced us we do[/quote] Maybe the things that you call bones are, in fact, society. Take away all the bones and what do you have left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='444625' date='Feb 22 2007, 08:36 PM'][size=4][u][b] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_(United_States)[/url][/quote] People perceiving tax collectors as evil due to a turn-of-phrase in the 21st Century?!?!?!!? Get outta here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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