Actium Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I think that many of the advocates of the estate tax are over-estimating it. It is not around to help stave off the establishment of an aristocracy, or to prevent the extreme accumulation of wealth leading to class envy and bloody revolution. It's just a way for the government to make a little more money and is an annoyance to the people who are rich enough to qualify for it. It's just another tax--not the preserver of the American philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='445521' date='Feb 25 2007, 12:01 PM']Your mom will receive 100% of everything he has TAX FREE because of the marital deduction.[/quote] I believe ithat it's up to 2 million tax free--the rest can be put in a bypass trust, so long as there is no general power of appointment. Interest is paid out to the spouse. Principal can be raided for Health, Education, Maintanance, or Support (HEMS)--put that in the will. This would postpone the application of the estate tax for the life of the surviving spouse. An alternative to the marital deduction is to QTIP trust--to control where the money goes after the spouse passes away (and not giving it to the spouse outright). Edited by looking some things up for correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445528' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:44 PM']I believe ithat it's up to 2 million tax free--the rest can be put in a bypass trust, so long as there is no general power of appointment. Interest is paid out to the spouse. Principal can be raided for Health, Education, Maintanance, or Support (HEMS)--put that in the will. This would postpone the application of the estate tax for the life of the surviving spouse. An alternative to the marital deduction is to QTIP trust--to control where the money goes after the spouse passes away (and not giving it to the spouse outright). Edited by looking some things up for correction[/quote] Like I said, the wife gets everything tax free. Bypass trusts and QTIPs are only to get assets to heirs tax free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445527' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:42 PM']I think that many of the advocates of the estate tax are over-estimating it. It is not around to help stave off the establishment of an aristocracy, or to prevent the extreme accumulation of wealth leading to class envy and bloody revolution. It's just a way for the government to make a little more money and is an annoyance to the people who are rich enough to qualify for it. It's just another tax--not the preserver of the American philosophy.[/quote] Thank you for clearly articulating my exact position when I could not. I will post more when I have time. UK basketball is on the radio here at work, and well...a man's gotta have priorities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='445532' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:11 PM']Like I said, the wife gets everything tax free. Bypass trusts and QTIPs are only to get assets to heirs tax free.[/quote] Yes, you are correct--I looked up more info and the bypass trust is there for the non-taxable 2 million part of the state--the deduction is unlimited--but you wouldn't want to use it for the whole value of the estate--just to leave a rump portion of 2 million. The QTIP is basically just an alternative to the marital deduction--same purpose, different way (for control purposes). ETA Everything in an estate over 2 million is going to get taxed eventually under the estate tax. So eventually a 3 million dollar estate will be taxed for 1 million, if the will was set up right (otherwise it could be for the full amount). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445540' date='Feb 25 2007, 02:25 PM']Yes, you are correct--I looked up more info and the bypass trust is there for the non-taxable 2 million part of the state--the deduction is unlimited--but you wouldn't want to use it for the whole value of the estate--just to leave a rump portion of 2 million. The QTIP is basically just an alternative to the marital deduction--same purpose, different way (for control purposes). ETA Everything in an estate over 2 million is going to get taxed eventually under the estate tax. So eventually a 3 million dollar estate will be taxed for 1 million, if the will was set up right (otherwise it could be for the full amount).[/quote] Bung's original concern was getting the $$$ to his mom if something happens to his dad. The marital deduction will allow that. Anything else are tools to get $$$ to heirs with the smallest tax bill possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='445543' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:35 PM']Bung's original concern was getting the $$$ to his mom if something happens to his dad. The marital deduction will allow that. Anything else are tools to get $$$ to heirs with the smallest tax bill possible.[/quote] True, I guess I got sucked into a tangent issue from the original tangent issue, and wanted to fill in the myriad gaps in my knowledge along the way. thank you for clarifying some points for me. Anyway, I don't see what's wrong with trying to limit the number of taxes paid--I don't know anyone who will pay more taxes than they absolutely have to. Maybe they're out there, but I'm not sure they'd want to brag about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445527' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:42 PM']I think that many of the advocates of the estate tax are over-estimating it. It is not around to help stave off the establishment of an aristocracy, or to prevent the extreme accumulation of wealth leading to class envy and bloody revolution. It's just a way for the government to make a little more money and is an annoyance to the people who are rich enough to qualify for it. It's just another tax--not the preserver of the American philosophy.[/quote] I've never thought of how much $$$ is actually generated from this tax. Anyone have a figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 [quote name='sois' post='445547' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:55 PM']I've never thought of how much $$$ is actually generated from this tax. Anyone have a figure?[/quote] No, but bet we'll see one from www.DieServantsOfMammon.com or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445527' date='Feb 25 2007, 01:42 PM']I think that many of the advocates of the estate tax are over-estimating it. It is not around to help stave off the establishment of an aristocracy, or to prevent the extreme accumulation of wealth leading to class envy and bloody revolution. It's just a way for the government to make a little more money and is an annoyance to the people who are rich enough to qualify for it. It's just another tax--not the preserver of the American philosophy.[/quote] Actually, it's a little bit of both. It's been marked by an similar attitude as those towards issues like primogeniture and entail, as well as used to grease skids during wartime. So, my query stands. Compatible or not with American values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='445694' date='Feb 25 2007, 07:18 PM']Actually, it's a little bit of both. It's been marked by an similar attitude as those towards issues like primogeniture and entail, as well as used to grease skids during wartime. So, my query stands. Compatible or not with American values?[/quote] I guess that depends on which generation of American values we're talking about. In the modern era, it probably is more compatible (with the rise of class and social consciousness and entitlement programs in the 60s and beyond). I would say it doesn't really belong, if we are talking about the old-time values way before the 16th Amendment. Obviously those are bygone times. Abolishing the fee tail served to prevent land from staying in the same bloodline--literally you could not devise it land if a fee tail. That improved the freedom to use your property the way you wish. The estate tax limits how you can use your property, and gives a portion to the government. Abolishing the fee tail served to increase individual property rights, and so would abolishing the estate tax. In the end it just increases the size of the treasury by a bit, and makes a lot more work for estate planning lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='445777' date='Feb 25 2007, 11:39 PM']I guess that depends on which generation of American values we're talking about. In the modern era, it probably is more compatible (with the rise of class and social consciousness and entitlement programs in the 60s and beyond). I would say it doesn't really belong, if we are talking about the old-time values way before the 16th Amendment. Obviously those are bygone times.[/quote] Not quite sure what you endorse here. Various polemics against "class" and for "equal opportunity" have been a concern from before the founding. Given our normal slowness to actually adopt some principles as a matter of positive law, one might say that the issue which came to a head during the Progressive Era, and was legislated about in Roosevelt/Taft/Wilson's time is now settling in. So, not only are those not bygone times, I'd argue that we are in the later stages of settling the matter. So my query still serves a purpose for those inclined to ruminate: Are American values compatible with a European-style class structure, especially one that is largely based on hereditary wealth? Isn't that a big part of what we fought the Revolution for, i.e. anti-nobility, whether is be based on blood or property? [quote]Abolishing the fee tail served to prevent land from staying in the same bloodline--literally you could not devise it land if a fee tail. That improved the freedom to use your property the way you wish. The estate tax limits how you can use your property, and gives a portion to the government. Abolishing the fee tail served to increase individual property rights, and so would abolishing the estate tax.[/quote]Agree with the first part, suspect we disagree with what can be concluded from this. Abolishing the fee tail does improve property rights, it's a relic of the Middle Ages which no longer pertains in modern society. So, why would we re-feudalize in other ways? (Hey, I made up a word!) [quote]In the end it just increases the size of the treasury by a bit, and makes a lot more work for estate planning lawyers.[/quote] David Cay Johnston's book, [u]Perfectly Legal[/u], is an eye-opener for those who are curious about the "system." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coy Bacon Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 [img]http://rense.com/1.imagesH/molechdees.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 [quote name='Coy Bacon' post='446174' date='Feb 27 2007, 12:53 AM'][img]http://rense.com/1.imagesH/molechdees.jpg[/img][/quote] gotta love the Bohemian Grove.... I was watching Dragnet the other night and wondered if it was modeled after this... damn PAGANs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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