The VT Shooter .... ?

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486768' date='May 15 2007, 11:39 AM']But if you go around telling everyone all that time, that your "girlfriend" is fucking everyone else in town, is
a money grubbing bitch, , is a self centered cunt and was spawned from the seed of the devil himself,
then people have a valid reason to ask "why you`re with her", because it sure couldn`t be because you "love" her.

I never heard Dr King spew hatred for this Country . . .[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]What you are talking about is simply differences of venting anger. And that's more about style and personality.
The person that goes around saying those things about his girlfriend is just venting his anger or hut, albeit in a
negative fashion. But despite what he says about her, if he really loves her, he aint going no where.

Dont you think the things that Dr King saw and dealt with pissed him off? Of course it did, but he
knew that being in his position, that he would lose all lot of the people he needed, if he busted out
with a "Fuck those crackas" speech, as opposed to "I Have a Dream".

It's all about the presentation. Some show their displeasure in a raw or hardcore fashion while others
can be eloquent. Usually the latter, is more effective. [/b][/color]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486769' date='May 15 2007, 11:40 AM']

(although in the boondocks he did end up leaving for canada )[/quote]




[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486770' date='May 15 2007, 11:40 AM']I was generating an example - not trying to compare the two. I agree they're on completely different levels.

I am as well and I agree. I just never see any of things that "make us proud to be American", just the negative stuff that we're shamed and outraged over.

I guess what he had here, even with all it's warts, was better than what he had to look forward to somewhere else. I believe King did discuss the positives that the US has going for it, not only dwelling on the negative.

Even if loving her means having to not associate with family, friends, etc. anymore because she doesn't approve. [size=4]Not if loving her hurts more than leaving her...[/size] But that is just my opinion.[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Ok, well allow me to pose this question to you.....

If you tire of seeing negative things on this board about our country, why not post some
threads about some positive things that are going on yourself?[/b][/color]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486776' date='May 15 2007, 11:54 AM']Are you trying to say that you and BJ have the same views of this Country, just not to his extremes ?[/quote]


On some things yes, on something were polar oppisites.

[Jamie_B]

Also I would ask this.

Is love for one's country a required prerequisite to living in it? And if not then wouldnt the love for what one views as morally right be better than a love for your country?

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='sneaky' post='486777' date='May 15 2007, 11:55 AM'][color="#FF0000"][b]What you are talking about is simply differences of venting anger. And that's more about style and personality.
[color="#000000"]The person that goes around saying does things about his girlfriend is just venting his anger or hut, albeit in a
negative fashion. But despite what he says about her, if he really loves her, he aint going no where.[/color]

Dont you think the things that Dr King saw and dealt with pissed him off? Of course it did, but he
knew that being in his position, that he would lose all lot of the people he needed, if he busted out
with a "Fuck those crackas" speech, as opposed to "I Have a Dream".

It's all about the presentation. Some show their displeasure in a raw or hardcore fashion while others
can be eloquent. Usually the latter, is more effective. [/b][/color]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Ok, well allow me to pose this question to you.....

If you tire of seeing negative things on this board about our country, why not post some
threads about some positive things that are going on yourself?[/b][/color][/quote]
But it still goes back to the fact that people are going to ask the dude "Why stay?" when that is all they hear from him.


I will attempt to do that as I'm a generally positive person. But, I'm also not one of the group constantly bemoaning negativity about our great land.

I love the fact that we can have this conversation on this board and agree to disagree on various points without someone getting hurt. That is freedom that we have.

I love the fact that I can go to church on Sunday morning (or whatever day your denomination celebrates, or not at all) and not worry about getting shot at or killed.

I love the fact that we have free elections to decide who is going to run our country. The voice of the citizens is heard - it may not always be what we'd like it to say but it is heard anyway.

I love the fact that I can go buy whatever car I choose and drive it wherever I choose without having to be worried about getting pulled over / arrested for being outside a neighborhood that I wasn't designated to be in.

I love the fact that I can do so without real fear of being shot at.

I love the fact that I can have as many sons, and daughters, as I choose and can raise them as I see fit. I'm not on a quota system where if I have too many daughters some are going to be killed off.

I love the fact that I, along with my wife, can elect to not have an abortion (and others have that right) as I don't agree with them. For others, obviously they view it differently. But, the thing is we both have the right.


Those are just a few that I came up with right off - but it is time for lunch. I'm hungry.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='sneaky' post='486777' date='May 15 2007, 10:55 AM']What you are talking about is simply differences of venting anger. And that's more about style and personality.
The person that goes around saying does things about his girlfriend is just venting his anger or hut, albeit in a
negative fashion. But despite what he says about her, if he really loves her, he aint going no where.

Dont you think the things that Dr King saw and dealt with pissed him off? Of course it did, but he
knew that being in his position, that he would lose all lot of the people he needed, if he busted out
with a "Fuck those crackas" speech, as opposed to "I Have a Dream".

It's all about the presentation. Some show their displeasure in a raw or hardcore fashion while others
can be eloquent. Usually the latter, is more effective.[/quote]




C`mon now. I`ve asked BJ this same question before. Not because of one thing he said,
not because of his presentation to the outrage he had over THIS Administration, or
the policies they have. But because of the utter disdain he displays for this Country, how the land
for it was aquired, it economic system ect.

I can understand being a dissenter. I can understand not being happy with
everything this Country does. I can understand not being happy with
the war, or how it is being handled. I can understand wanting change.
What I can not understand is bashing this Country from the floor joyst to the rafters,
from the purple mountians majesty, from sea to shining sea, all in the name of dissent.




[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486779' date='May 15 2007, 10:58 AM']On some things yes, on something were polar oppisites.[/quote]


You`re such a fence rider sometimes . . .

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486785' date='May 15 2007, 12:11 PM']But it still goes back to the fact that people are going to ask the dude "Why stay?" when that is all they hear from him.[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]It is still a bogus question. Asking someone "Why stay?" is no different than asking them "Why don't you leave?".
[/b][/color]

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486786' date='May 15 2007, 12:11 PM']

C`mon now. I`ve asked BJ this same question before. Not because of one thing he said,
not because of his presentation to the outrage he had over THIS Administration, or
the policies they have. But because of the utter disdain he displays for this Country, how the land
for it was aquired, it economic system ect.

I can understand being a dissenter. I can understand not being happy with
everything this Country does. I can understand not being happy with
the war, or how it is being handled. I can understand wanting change.
What I can not understand is bashing this Country from the floor joyst to the rafters,
from the purple mountians majesty, from sea to shining sea, all in the name of dissent.
You`re such a fence rider sometimes . . . [/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Personally, I dont believe that BJ hates this country the way you and some thinks
he does. As a matter of fact, I dont think BJ hates this country at all. I think he just
hates some things that this country has done , past and present.....and so do I.[/b][/color]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486783' date='May 15 2007, 11:04 AM']Also I would ask this.

Is love for one's country a required prerequisite to living in it?
Is love for one's country a required prerequisite to living in it? And if not then wouldnt the love for what one views as morally right be better than a love for your country?[/quote]

Well, it seems to me, that if you were born here, then you would have
love for your homeland. And want the best for it, for not
only your benefit, but for the future generations you hope to benefit.

If you`re an immigrant that came here, it seems to me, that you would have had a dream to
come here for a better life. You picked this place over every other place in the World.
So while it isn`t "required", it sure as hell seems (to me anyway) like it should just
come naturally, to have more love for your home, than you have hatred.

Do you have to be an American "homer" and act like eveything it does
is great, and there is never anything "wrong" ? Of course not.
But just like with the Bengals, if all someone does is complain,
bitch and moan, you start asking them why they`re a fan.
You`re unhappy with the Defense, so that`s all you do is bitch about
the Defense. You`re unhappy with the front office, so that`s all you
do is bitch about the front office. Yet totally ignore the great team
that is assembled in front of you.
And before anyone says anything stupid, the above statement was an analogy. So treat it as one . . .





[quote name='sneaky' post='486788' date='May 15 2007, 11:24 AM'][color="#FF0000"][b]Personally, I dont believe that BJ hates this country the way you and some thinks
he does. As a matter of fact, I dont think BJ hates this country at all. I think he just
hates some things that this country has done , past and present.....and so do I.[/b][/color][/quote]


Well so do I . . .


*EDIT* Let me add, that I`m not saying BJ doesn`t love this Country.
For all I know, he does. All I have to go on are his posts. And they
say what I`ve been saying through out this thread. If those posts
are truly indicative of his feelings for this Country, then I think
the question that was posed to him, is not ridiculous, but valid . . .

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='sneaky' post='486787' date='May 15 2007, 12:18 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]It is still a bogus question. Asking someone "Why stay?" is no different than asking them "Why don't you leave?".
[/b][/color][/quote]
Word it however you'd like. But that "Why don't you leave?" isn't in that smarmy tone where it is inferring "I'd like you to leave". It is an honest question, much like "Can give me any good reasons why you're staying?".

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486783' date='May 15 2007, 12:04 PM']Also I would ask this.

Is love for one's country a required prerequisite to living in it? And if not then wouldnt the love for what one views as morally right be better than a love for your country?[/quote]
We're going to back to where we started. No, it is not a prerequisite. But, you're saying, hypothetically, that if one doesn't love the country one's living in and doesn't agree, morally, with the way it lives, correct?

What is one's reasoning for staying then? That is my point - there has to be some redeeming value(s) that make one not search out a place that makes one happy. If there are reasons for staying then why don't those things get mentioned, and not in a backhanded compliment / prideful declaration.

Unless one is in it strictly for the revolutionary value they're going to bring to the table and nothing else. Which, I guess, is possible but not likely.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486786' date='May 15 2007, 12:11 PM']You`re such a fence rider sometimes . . . [/quote]

Not at all I just dont see things as black and white as most.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486789' date='May 15 2007, 12:27 PM']Well, it seems to me, that if you were born here, then you would have
love for your homeland. And want the best for it, for not
only your benefit, but for the future generations you hope to benefit.

If you`re an immigrant that came here, it seems to me, that you would have had a dream to
come here for a better life. You picked this place over every other place in the World.
So while it isn`t "required", it sure as hell seems (to me anyway) like it should just
come naturally, to have more love for your home, than you have hatred.

Do you have to be an American "homer" and act like eveything it does
is great, and there is never anything "wrong" ? Of course not.
But just like with the Bengals, if all someone does is complain,
bitch and moan, you start asking them why they`re a fan.
You`re unhappy with the Defense, so that`s all you do is bitch about
the Defense. You`re unhappy with the front office, so that`s all you
do is bitch about the front office. Yet totally ignore the great team
that is assembled in front of you.
And before anyone says anything stupid, the above statement was an analogy. So treat it as one . . .
Well so do I . . .
*EDIT* Let me add, that I`m not saying BJ doesn`t love this Country.
For all I know, he does. All I have to go on are his posts. And they
say what I`ve been saying through out this thread. If those posts
are truly indicative of his feelings for this Country, then I think
the question that was posed to him, is not ridiculous, but valid . . .[/quote]


See it seems to me that love for mandkind should precede love for ones country.

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486794' date='May 15 2007, 12:45 PM']We're going to back to where we started. No, it is not a prerequisite. But, you're saying, hypothetically, that if one doesn't love the country one's living in and doesn't agree, morally, with the way it lives, correct?

What is one's reasoning for staying then? That is my point - there has to be some redeeming value(s) that make one not search out a place that makes one happy. If there are reasons for staying then why don't those things get mentioned, and not in a backhanded compliment / prideful declaration.[/quote]


Because one has seen the country make changes in pointing to the correct morally right things. Onyx's example of MLK was a good illistration.

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486792' date='May 15 2007, 12:37 PM']Word it however you'd like. But that "Why don't you leave?" isn't in that smarmy tone where it is inferring "I'd like you to leave". It is an honest question, much like "Can give me any good reasons why you're staying?".[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]The questions "Why dont you leave?" or "Why do you stay?" are not pragmatic questions.

Personally, because of intangibles such as my job and family it would be very difficult for me to
leave my city, let alone my country. And quite frankly, very few Americans "hate" their country
so much, that they'd contemplate moving.

And if one did have the financial resources to uproot and leave, where could one go in this world,
to avoid the stench of America? [/b][/color]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486797' date='May 15 2007, 12:49 PM']Because one has seen the country make changes in pointing to the correct morally right things. sneaky's example of MLK was a good illistration.[/quote]
So, there are positive things about this country...

I never said "don't be negative / a dissenter" I just said that there should be a balancing act incorporating the good and the bad. Not just bad.

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486799' date='May 15 2007, 12:56 PM']So, there are positive things about this country...

I never said "don't be negative / a dissenter" I just said that there should be a balancing act incorporating the good and the bad. Not just bad.[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Ok Vol, name one good thing that this country or administration or whatever, is currently doing that
can almost be undisputed as such.[/b][/color]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='486797' date='May 15 2007, 11:49 AM']Not at all I just dont see things as black and white as most.[/quote]

I don`t see things as black and white. You racist. Not everything is Gray though.


[quote]See it seems to me that love for mandkind should precede love for ones country.[/quote]

Who said they love their Country more than they love mankind ?
You act like if you say love America, you love them more than mankind.
If mankind cease to exist, I`m pretty sure that would mean the end of the USA also.

I would argue that America does more for the benefit of mankind than they
do that is detremental. When other Countries expierence disaster, famine ect, and need
help, which way do they look ?

In my opinion, this is the greatest Country in the World. I know that`s not
saying much, considering how fucked up this World is. But this Country
is the most charitable Nation on the Planet. We try to help our fellow man
more than any other.

I`m not "proud" of some of the things the Government has done in the past.
But I am proud of some of the things the Government has done in the past.
And I think there is more to be proud of, than not proud of.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486747' date='May 15 2007, 10:41 AM']I would look to the things that are positive about our country and what we're doing, instead of constantly living in the negative.[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]No one is stopping you or anyone else on here from posting positive things about America … Hell post away till you are over flowing with pride. I never really see you or anyone else here post anything that was positive about America now that I think about it.

- If I felt as good about America as you do … I would be posting about it all the time. [/b][/size][/font]





[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486747' date='May 15 2007, 10:41 AM']Other than the Bengals, I can't think of anything that BJ talks about in a favorable light.[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I talk about an array of things in a positive light … but yes I am more cynical and critical than most people. On that note … what are some of the things you talk about in a positive light on here ?[/b][/size][/font]





[quote name='oldschooler' post='486763' date='May 15 2007, 11:24 AM']BJ thinks this land was stolen from the Native Americans, that they had plagues thrusts upon them, that more land was stolen from the Mexicans[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Are these undeniable facts even in question ? Are you stating that you don’t recognize the fact that the U.S. was stolen from Natives … or that the U.S. stole land from Mexico after the Mexican-American War in 1848 ? Was that land a gift ?[/b][/size][/font]






[quote name='oldschooler' post='486763' date='May 15 2007, 11:24 AM']He thinks Capitalism is the root of all evil.[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I have never said that … and do not believe that. Greed, racism, religion, bigotry, nationalism, sexism, ignorance, jealousy, ego, envy, materialism, the lust for power, the love of money, hatred, etc etc etc …… All can lead to evil.

- It is just my contention that right now we are operating in an corporatist oligarchy disguised as “Capitalism” that magnifies and rewards many of the aforementioned traits. [/b][/size][/font]






[quote name='oldschooler' post='486763' date='May 15 2007, 11:24 AM']He thinks we’re "Imperialist" now.[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]You would have a hard time arguing that the U.S. is not exhibiting a plethora of imperialist tendencies. The problem with this … is that most people have no idea what “imperialism” is. [/b][/size][/font]






[quote name='sneaky' post='486765' date='May 15 2007, 11:28 AM'][color="#FF0000"][b]
Now if King took your advice or had the same opinion as you, he would have packed up his shit and moved to Canada or something.
[/b][/color][/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]As would George Washington, Thomas Paine, and all of the other people who helped found America in the first place.

King George spokesman: [i]“If you resent the King so much … why not move out of the colonies ………… wait what’s that musket for?”[/b][/i][/size][/font]






[quote name='oldschooler' post='486768' date='May 15 2007, 11:39 AM']I never heard Dr King spew hatred for this Country . . .[/quote]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]What do you mean when you say “This country” … what the hell is THIS COUNTRY?

Is this country the government housed in D.C. ? Is this country the military housed in the Pentagon ? Is this country the War protesters like me who met in D.C. ? Is this country all of the people who hate this country ? Is this country the handful of billionaires who own most of it ? Is this country the Christian-like-Taliban who show up on Sunday morning Televangelist shows and offer to sell me holy water for 19.95 a vile and want to make me recite the 10 commandments every morning ?

If this country are it’s government or the actions carried out by the military … then yes I hate the things it has done and what it has become. if this country is the long history it has of oppression, death, racism, and bigotry ... then I hate that as well. If this country are its people … then I actually like most of it – especially those not housed in sky scraper board rooms or in D.C. offices. [/b][/size][/font]

[Vol_Bengal]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]No one is stopping you or anyone else on here from posting positive things about America … Hell post away till you are over flowing with pride. I never really see you or anyone else here post anything that was positive about America now that I think about it.

- If I felt as good about America as you do … I would be posting about it all the time. [/b][/size][/font]

As I put in another response on this very topic on page 1.

[quote]I love the fact that we can have this conversation on this board and agree to disagree on various points without someone getting hurt. That is freedom that we have.

I love the fact that I can go to church on Sunday morning (or whatever day your denomination celebrates, or not at all) and not worry about getting shot at or killed.

I love the fact that we have free elections to decide who is going to run our country. The voice of the citizens is heard - it may not always be what we'd like it to say but it is heard anyway.

I love the fact that I can go buy whatever car I choose and drive it wherever I choose without having to be worried about getting pulled over / arrested for being outside a neighborhood that I wasn't designated to be in.

I love the fact that I can do so without real fear of being shot at.

I love the fact that I can have as many sons, and daughters, as I choose and can raise them as I see fit. I'm not on a quota system where if I have too many daughters some are going to be killed off.

I love the fact that I, along with my wife, can elect to not have an abortion (and others have that right) as I don't agree with them. For others, obviously they view it differently. But, the thing is we both have the right.[/quote]



[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I talk about an array of things in a positive light … but yes I am more cynical and critical than most people. On that note … what are some of the things you talk about in a positive light on here ?[/b][/size][/font]

See above. You say array of things - I can't recall any.

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Are these undeniable facts even in question ? Are you stating that you don’t recognize the fact that the U.S. was stolen from Natives … or that the U.S. stole land from Mexico after the Mexican-American War in 1848 ? Was that land a gift ?[/b][/size][/font]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I have never said that … and do not believe that. Greed, racism, religion, bigotry, nationalism, sexism, ignorance, jealousy, ego, envy, materialism, the lust for power, the love of money, hatred, etc etc etc …… All can lead to evil.

- It is just my contention that right now we are operating in an corporatist oligarchy disguised as “Capitalism” that magnifies and rewards many of the aforementioned traits. [/b][/size][/font]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]You would have a hard time arguing that the U.S. is not exhibiting a plethora of imperialist tendencies. The problem with this … is that most people have no idea what “imperialism” is. [/b][/size][/font]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]As would George Washington, Thomas Paine, and all of the other people who helped found America in the first place.

King George spokesman: [i]“If you resent the King so much … why not move out of the colonies ………… wait what’s that musket for?”[/b][/i][/size][/font]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]What do you mean when you say “This country” … what the hell is THIS COUNTRY?

Is this country the government housed in D.C. ? Is this country the military housed in the Pentagon ? Is this country the War protesters like me who met in D.C. ? Is this country all of the people who hate this country ? Is this country the handful of billionaires who own most of it ? Is this country the Christian-like-Taliban who show up on Sunday morning Televangelist shows and offer to sell me holy water for 19.95 a vile and want to make me recite the 10 commandments every morning ?

If this country are it’s government or the actions carried out by the military … then yes I hate the things it has done and what it has become. if this country is the long history it has of oppression, death, racism, and bigotry ... then I hate that as well. If this country are its people … then I actually like most of it – especially those not housed in sky scraper board rooms or in D.C. offices. [/b][/size][/font]

And the drumbeat goes on...

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486803' date='May 15 2007, 01:19 PM']I would argue that America does more for the benefit of mankind than they
do that is detremental. When other Countries expierence disaster, famine ect, and need
help, which way do they look ?

In my opinion, this is the greatest Country in the World. I know that`s not
saying much, considering how fucked up this World is. But this Country
is the most charitable Nation on the Planet. We try to help our fellow man
more than any other.[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]As much as I want to, I cannot totally agree with that. Yes, America comes
in to the aid of countries when they have suffered catastrophic tragedies but
usually there are strings attached.

There are some organizations that will come with the clothes, food and medical supplies,
but they are bringing the bibles too, especially if there is a small Christian percentage
to where they are going. "See our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, brought you food and
medicine, your God didn't."

And on a political level, there are some countries that America does not like, and
could care less if the people there die or not. Cuba for example. If Cuba was hit with
a devistating hurricane, and many were dying and suffering, how much aid would
America give?

What if Iran was hit by an earthquake of epic proportions, how much U.S. aid would go
there? As soon as we set foot in those countries, we are not leaving. They know it and
we know it. So In my estimation, America is far not as noble as I want it to be.[/b][/color]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='sneaky' post='486801' date='May 15 2007, 01:13 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]Ok Vol, name one good thing that this country or administration or whatever, is currently doing that
can almost be undisputed as such.[/b][/color][/quote]
Are you serious?

Attempting through diplomatic means (if you call the UN diplomacy) to get Iran to stop Uranium enrichment.
Attempting to do the same with North Korea.


I'll not go into the fighting terrorists there instead of here as there are folks on here that would dispute as being good.

EDIT** I guess things people take for granted are things I'm thankful, and proud of. My daily safety. Freedom is secured. My right to make choices and not have those decisions made for me.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='sneaky' post='486801' date='May 15 2007, 01:13 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]Ok Vol, name one good thing that this country or administration or whatever, is currently doing that
can almost be undisputed as such.[/b][/color][/quote]

aids relief...

[BengalsCat]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='486710' date='May 15 2007, 07:44 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]The larger point being that Americans do not universally accept that gunning down 32 people is wrong .... = it is a matter of who the 32 people are.

If the 32 men are in the mountains of Afghanistan, have long beards, are reading the Quran, and are armed with rifles for self protection .... then an American marine who runs in and guns them down is a hero.

I just wish people were more honest with themselves ...

Most people think killing 32 people is ok and can even be heroic ... if they don't like the 32 people being shot. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

So your saying that everyone involved in WW2 and ever other major conflict over the last 200+ years and has faught and died for america is a murder??

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='486809' date='May 15 2007, 12:31 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Are these undeniable facts even in question ? Are you stating that you don’t recognize the fact that the U.S. was stolen from Natives … or that the U.S. stole land from Mexico after the Mexican-American War in 1848 ? Was that land a gift ?[/b][/size][/font][/quote]

Some Native American tribes thought that "real" men hunted food and made war, and nothing else.
Others thought that people didn`t own land. So they "sold" it for whatever they could get.

We had a war with Mexico. We won and paid them for the land, they accepted the money.


I would say it isn`t an "undeniable fact" that the land was "stolen". Obvioulsy you would.


[quote]I have never said that … and do not believe that. Greed, racism, religion, bigotry, nationalism, sexism, ignorance, jealousy, ego, envy, materialism, the lust for power, the love of money, hatred, etc etc etc …… All can lead to evil.

- It is just my contention that right now we are operating in an corporatist oligarchy disguised as “Capitalism” that magnifies and rewards many of the aforementioned traits.[/quote]

Isn`t that what I said . . . in not so many words ?

You prefer a Marxist or Communist society.

[quote]You would have a hard time arguing that the U.S. is not exhibiting a plethora of imperialist tendencies. The problem with this … is that most people have no idea what “imperialism” is.[/quote]

I know what it is. Going to war in Iraq doesn`t equal Imperialism.


[quote]What do you mean when you say “This country” … what the hell is THIS COUNTRY?

Is this country the government housed in D.C. ? Is this country the military housed in the Pentagon ? Is this country the War protesters like me who met in D.C. ? [b]Is this country all of the people who hate this country ?[/b] Is this country the handful of billionaires who own most of it ? Is this country the Christian-like-Taliban who show up on Sunday morning Televangelist shows and offer to sell me holy water for 19.95 a vile and want to make me recite the 10 commandments every morning ?

If this country are it’s government or the actions carried out by the military … then yes I hate the things it has done and what it has become. [b]if this country is the long history it has of oppression, death, racism, and bigotry ... then I hate that as well.[/b] If this country are its people … then I actually like most of it – especially those not housed in sky scraper board rooms or in D.C. offices.[/quote]




How can this Country be people who hate this COuntry ?

The US is one of the youngest Countries on the planet.
There are a lot more Countries, that have a lot longer history, and none of free
of the shit you listed.

Anyway, by THIS COUNTRY, I meant the United States Of America, and to the Republic,
for which it stands, one Nation, under God, with Liberty and Justice for all . . .

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='486789' date='May 15 2007, 12:27 PM']Anyway, by THIS COUNTRY, I meant the United States Of America, and to the Republic,
for which it stands, one Nation, under God, with Liberty and Justice for all . . . [/quote]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]who wants to point out the ironic humor in the fact that he messed up the pledge ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img][/b][/size][/font]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='486799' date='May 15 2007, 12:56 PM']So, there are positive things about this country...

I never said "don't be negative / a dissenter" I just said that there should be a balancing act incorporating the good and the bad. Not just bad.[/quote]

Its human nature to talk about the bad before the good and sometimes if at all. You see this in everything, the news is perfect examples of it. You see it when your buddy complains about his woman but rarely talks to you about the good stuff she does.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='486803' date='May 15 2007, 01:19 PM']I don`t see things as black and white. You racist. Not everything is Gray though.

Who said they love their Country more than they love mankind ?
You act like if you say love America, you love them more than mankind.
If mankind cease to exist, I`m pretty sure that would mean the end of the USA also.

I would argue that America does more for the benefit of mankind than they
do that is detremental. When other Countries expierence disaster, famine ect, and need
help, which way do they look ?

In my opinion, this is the greatest Country in the World. I know that`s not
saying much, considering how fucked up this World is. But this Country
is the most charitable Nation on the Planet. We try to help our fellow man
more than any other.

I`m not "proud" of some of the things the Government has done in the past.
But I am proud of some of the things the Government has done in the past.
And I think there is more to be proud of, than not proud of.[/quote]


I agree with you that we do alot of good for the world, but does that mean that we should just pretend that we dont do bad either?

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='486816' date='May 15 2007, 01:53 PM']aids relief...[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Well considering the United States created the disease, I think it's
the least they could do........helping Africa and all. But yeah your right, it is a good thing.


You are on a roll. Name another.

[/b][/color]