Reds Sign Corey Patterson

[Inigo Montoya]

[url="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Headlines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=229694"]http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Headlines...B&hl=229694[/url]


Jerry Hairston Jr. too.

[JBandJoeyV]

So much for Jay Bruce starting the season at CF....

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='639606' date='Mar 3 2008, 09:42 PM']So much for Jay Bruce starting the season at CF....[/quote]
didnt expect it to happen anyways.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='639613' date='Mar 3 2008, 09:44 PM']didnt expect it to happen anyways.[/quote]


I see you are back from vacation....

Think Patterson will start in CF?

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='639618' date='Mar 3 2008, 09:52 PM']I see you are back from vacation....

Think Patterson will start in CF?[/quote]
idk. i think he has to steal it from hopper. i just hope freel is let go.

[Go Tory Go!]

BOOOOOOO! BOOOOOO!

[The Scales]

Doubt anyone will out play Hopper.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='The Scales' post='640392' date='Mar 5 2008, 01:47 PM']Doubt anyone will out play Hopper.[/quote]

I hope not, especially with Patterson's abysmal on-base pct, but let's get down to brass tacks - yes or no, is this move Scales Approved?

[The Scales]

Um no it's not



but I'll cut toothpick some slack,and simply notate the abomination for future refrence.

[Palmer4HOF]

In GABP, I see Patterson having a HUGE year both offensively and defensively... I like this move a lot.

Lets Bruce start in AAA til injury occurs and Patterson is a huge upgrade at the CF spot over anyone on this organization (with the exception of maybe Stubbs)

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='642645' date='Mar 11 2008, 07:04 PM']Lets Bruce start in AAA til injury occurs and Patterson is a huge upgrade at the CF spot over anyone on this organization (with the exception of maybe Stubbs)[/quote]

Sorry, but Norris Hopper's batting average was 25 points higher than Patterson's on-base pct last year....! Your statement is ridiculous.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='643052' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:15 AM']Sorry, but Norris Hopper's batting average was 25 points higher than Patterson's on-base pct last year....! Your statement is ridiculous.[/quote]

Remind me again which one got to hit in GABP ?


And then remind me again which one is the waaaaay better defensive CF ?

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='643137' date='Mar 13 2008, 03:34 PM']Remind me again which one got to hit in GABP ?


And then remind me again which one is the waaaaay better defensive CF ?[/quote]

Yeah, Norris Hopper benefitted greatly from the ballpark. :rofl:

Don't make me laugh. Hopper is a contact hitter who is adept at getting on, getting over, and getting in. He hit 0 homers, and may have not even hit the wall, all last year. So unless Great American Ballpark has a hitter-friendly infield...

As for their defense, both are quick and adept at CF, but your claim of Patterson's vast superiority is also off-base.

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~ivychat/corey_acl.jpg[/img]
Patterson @ CF:
Last year - FP - .990
Career - FP - .987

[img]http://crawlyscubs.mlblogs.com/crawlys_cub_kingdom/images/norris_hopper_917.jpg[/img]
Hopper @ CF:
Last year - FP - .993
Career - FP - .993 (played two games without error there in 2006)

I'm not suggesting that fielding pct is the be-all, end-all statistic for assessing defensive prowess, but it is recorded and touted for a reason. Not only is Patterson not "waaaaaay better at CF," but he is actually inferior by this measure.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='643148' date='Mar 13 2008, 03:22 PM'] Yeah, Norris Hopper benefitted greatly from the ballpark. :rofl:

Don't make me laugh. Hopper is a contact hitter who is adept at getting on, getting over, and getting in. He hit 0 homers, and may have not even hit the wall, all last year. So unless Great American Ballpark has a hitter-friendly infield...

As for their defense, both are quick and adept at CF, but your claim of Patterson's vast superiority is also off-base.

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~ivychat/corey_acl.jpg[/img]
Patterson @ CF:
Last year - FP - .990
Career - FP - .987

[img]http://crawlyscubs.mlblogs.com/crawlys_cub_kingdom/images/norris_hopper_917.jpg[/img]
Hopper @ CF:
Last year - FP - .993
Career - FP - .993 (played two games without error there in 2006)

I'm not suggesting that fielding pct is the be-all, end-all statistic for assessing defensive prowess, but it is recorded and touted for a reason. Not only is Patterson not "waaaaaay better at CF," but he is actually inferior by this measure.[/quote]

let me guess, you think Freel is good too right?

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='643159' date='Mar 13 2008, 04:05 PM']let me guess, you think Freel is good too right?[/quote]
freel sucks ass but Hopper is far better than Patterson. Hopper/Patterson can platoon in CF until June or whenever Jay Bruce can come up and it wont bump his FA up a year.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='643148' date='Mar 13 2008, 03:22 PM'] Yeah, Norris Hopper benefitted greatly from the ballpark. :rofl:

Don't make me laugh. Hopper is a contact hitter who is adept at getting on, getting over, and getting in. He hit 0 homers, and may have not even hit the wall, all last year. So unless Great American Ballpark has a hitter-friendly infield...

As for their defense, both are quick and adept at CF, but your claim of Patterson's vast superiority is also off-base.

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~ivychat/corey_acl.jpg[/img]
Patterson @ CF:
Last year - FP - .990
Career - FP - .987

[img]http://crawlyscubs.mlblogs.com/crawlys_cub_kingdom/images/norris_hopper_917.jpg[/img]
Hopper @ CF:
Last year - FP - .993
Career - FP - .993 (played two games without error there in 2006)

I'm not suggesting that fielding pct is the be-all, end-all statistic for assessing defensive prowess, but it is recorded and touted for a reason. Not only is Patterson not "waaaaaay better at CF," but he is actually inferior by this measure.[/quote]

I need to come back to this ...

Norris Hopper is a one trick pony ... He lays down bunts and runs them out. When teams begin to figure this out (which they will), those numbers will go down.

Patterson has the ability to do more than that. My point about playing in GABP, is that it will help Pattersons OBP and SLG percentages, not saying that it did anything to Hoppers.


Also, to pull a fielding percentage to show how strong someone is in the field is a pretty poor stat to use. I don't have access to baseball prospectus or any other site that shows fielding metrics, but I'd wager to guess that Patterson blows Hopper out of the water.

Regardless, believe what you want, but I feel Patterson will have a very good year offensively in GABP and will be our starting Cf

As far as Bruce goes, the only ones holding him back are Dunn and Griff ... I just don't see Bruce getting time in CF... I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='643165' date='Mar 13 2008, 04:34 PM']I need to come back to this ...

Norris Hopper is a one trick pony ... He lays down bunts and runs them out. When teams begin to figure this out (which they will), those numbers will go down.

Patterson has the ability to do more than that. My point about playing in GABP, is that it will help Pattersons OBP and SLG percentages, not saying that it did anything to Hoppers.


Also, to pull a fielding percentage to show how strong someone is in the field is a pretty poor stat to use. I don't have access to baseball prospectus or any other site that shows fielding metrics, but I'd wager to guess that Patterson blows Hopper out of the water.

Regardless, believe what you want, but I feel Patterson will have a very good year offensively in GABP and will be our starting Cf

[b]As far as Bruce goes, the only ones holding him back are Dunn and Griff ... I just don't see Bruce getting time in CF... I could be wrong, but I doubt it.[/b][/quote]
he will. the issue imo is save the money and dont rush him. patterson has to be able to hit the ball and he is HORRID HORRID HORRID at actually hitting the ball. he has one of the worst eyes in baseball history. hopper does a lot more htan just lay a bunt down, but he also does that well. he is more than a 1 trick pony. if you put the bat on the ball you are dangerous. hopper is more dangerous than patterson.

[|BengalsFREAK|]

I think comparing ANY kind of stats of a player who has yet to play a full seasons worth of games combined for his CAREER (Hopper is at 142), vs. a player that has played 856 games is just silly.

That's like saying a guy who had 4 career at bats and got 2 hits is a career .500 hitter. It's technically correct, but it doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, I think Hopper is an ok player and all, but Corey Patterson brings much more overall to the team. Similar defense, bigger bat, way more experience, and plenty of speed.

[Nati Ice]

can anyone tell me why we signed this guy?




oh yea, dusty...

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='BengalsFREAK' post='643330' date='Mar 14 2008, 11:02 AM']I think comparing ANY kind of stats of a player who has yet to play a full seasons worth of games combined for his CAREER (Hopper is at 142), vs. a player that has played 856 games is just silly.

That's like saying a guy who had 4 career at bats and got 2 hits is a career .500 hitter. It's technically correct, but it doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, I think Hopper is an ok player and all, but Corey Patterson brings much more overall to the team. Similar defense, bigger bat, way more experience, and plenty of speed.[/quote]
thats dumb. 142 games isnt 2 games. 142 games is a season for a LOT of players. corey patterson has always sucked ass. what were his stats his first 142 games? he is HORRIBLE. he has NO plate discipline, he has no ability to get on base. he blows fucking ass. he is the kind of player we need to QUIT bringing to this team. this team has too many players that strike out and dont get on base enough.


id rather have 142 games of success than 856 games of SUCK.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='BengalsFREAK' post='643330' date='Mar 14 2008, 12:02 PM']I think comparing ANY kind of stats of a player who has yet to play a full seasons worth of games combined for his CAREER (Hopper is at 142), vs. a player that has played 856 games is just silly.

That's like saying a guy who had 4 career at bats and got 2 hits is a career .500 hitter. It's technically correct, but it doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, I think Hopper is an ok player and all, but Corey Patterson brings much more overall to the team. Similar defense, bigger bat, way more experience, and plenty of speed.[/quote]

Hopper's stats could be more comprehensive, but then again, Patterson's six season's-worth of mediocre-to-bad performances with no improvement can't possibly work for him. I'd rather have someone who has performed well in the hurdles he's face so far but might be playing over his head, than someone who has already proven himself over the course of years to be poor. Hopper was up long enough for a few trips around the league, so its not like he was a flash in the pan surviving briefly on novelty alone.

And please don't resort to citing his experience. Have you already forgotten Narron's justification for subjecting us to a half season of Royce Clayton starting?

[|BengalsFREAK|]

I made the "2 for 4" comparison to spell it out for guys like you, and you still didn't get it. Percentages (Batting, pitching, fielding) are due to dip over a larger amount of attempts. So when you point out that Hopper's fielding percentage is better (and it's barely better) in a career that's 1/8th as long as Pattersons, it just doesn't hold water.


What is even more retarded is that you guys are acting like Patterson has sucked. He's been average or better most of his career. Norris Hopper is an almost 30 year old guy who has BARELY made it out of the fucking minor leagues. He's the same age as Patterson, who's been in the majors since 2000. Patterson is no superstar, but he can hold the fort down for the time being. Other than 2005, his stats are decent.


Bottom line is that none of this is important really. Whoever gets the job (and I'm willing to make a bet that it's Patterson), is just keeping the spot warm for Jay Bruce, who will eventually take over when he's ready.

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='BengalsFREAK' post='643524' date='Mar 14 2008, 08:15 PM']I made the "2 for 4" comparison to spell it out for guys like you, and you still didn't get it. Percentages (Batting, pitching, fielding) are due to dip over a larger amount of attempts. So when you point out that Hopper's fielding percentage is better (and it's barely better) in a career that's 1/8th as long as Pattersons, it just doesn't hold water.


What is even more retarded is that [b]you guys are acting like Patterson has sucked. He's been average or better most of his career.[/b] Norris Hopper is an almost 30 year old guy who has BARELY made it out of the fucking minor leagues. He's the same age as Patterson, who's been in the majors since 2000. Patterson is no superstar, but he can hold the fort down for the time being. Other than 2005, his stats are decent.


Bottom line is that none of this is important really. Whoever gets the job (and I'm willing to make a bet that it's Patterson), is just keeping the spot warm for Jay Bruce, who will eventually take over when he's ready.[/quote]

please tell me how he doesnt suck? his career .298 OBP shows that he sucks. He has only been able to play 2 full seasons (153 and 157 games). He has a little power (which this team isnt in need of), but he cant put the ball in play, walk or avoid strikeouts. he is a hack. he is a guy who has continued to get chances because of his perceived potential 7/8 years ago. If he could somehow get his OBP up then i would understand your point a little more but he cant. he has never had an OBP above .329, that is HORRIBLE. in the past 3 years he is hitting 248 with RISP and has a .305 OBP when leading off an inning.


The Reds lineup has 3 needs: 1) a lead off hitter (lead off hitters need a high OBP) 2) guys who can hit with RISP and 3) guys who can get on base a lot. Patterson does NOT bring any of these needs to the Reds. Hopper is a much better option than Patterson. We KNOW what Patterson can do and its not shit. So far the only thing we know Hopper can do is hit pretty well. Id rather take the so called "risk" with Hopper and possibly get something good then get the KNOWN suckage of Patterson. Plus he is only keeping the seat warm for Bruce so if Hopper flops then he probably did what Patterson would have and Bruce steps in and fixes the problem.



Hopper had 116 ABs leading off an inning last year and hit .362 in those ABs with a .403 OBP. He also hit .328 with RISP. EVERYTHING points to Hopper being far more valuable to this team than Patterson until Bruce comes up.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='BengalsFREAK' post='643524' date='Mar 14 2008, 08:15 PM']I made the "2 for 4" comparison to spell it out for guys like you, and you still didn't get it. Percentages (Batting, pitching, fielding) are due to dip over a larger amount of attempts. So when you point out that Hopper's fielding percentage is better (and it's barely better) in a career that's 1/8th as long as Pattersons, it just doesn't hold water.


What is even more retarded is that you guys are acting like Patterson has sucked. He's been average or better most of his career. Norris Hopper is an almost 30 year old guy who has BARELY made it out of the fucking minor leagues. He's the same age as Patterson, who's been in the majors since 2000. Patterson is no superstar, but he can hold the fort down for the time being. Other than 2005, his stats are decent.


Bottom line is that none of this is important really. Whoever gets the job (and I'm willing to make a bet that it's Patterson), is just keeping the spot warm for Jay Bruce, who will eventually take over when he's ready.[/quote]

I understand your '2 for 4' hyperbole, which is why I wrote this:

[quote]Hopper was up long enough for a few trips around the league, so its not like he was a flash in the pan surviving briefly on novelty alone.[/quote]

Your claim that percentages dip over longer sampling periods is unfounded and a fallacy; they can go up, down, or not change. What you should have said is that over longer sampling periods, percentages will trend to a reasonable value which can be used with some degree of confidence. Your statement that his averages will decrease is simply evidence that you think he's overperformed for the last year; this may very well be the case. However, one wonders how long a player can 'overperform' before it ceases being 'overperforming.'

As for the fielding percentage, Hopper's 0.993 last year would have been Patterson's 2nd best year, after his 0.997 in basically his fourth year. To me, it is telling that Hopper puts together what would have been one of Patterson's best seasons in basically his first try (if you include partial first seasons, then Hopper's 142 games were 0.996, and Patterson's best season comes in his 5th year). Hopper nearly matches Patterson's best season in his first try. This comparison is valid because both use the same sampling period.

[|BengalsFREAK|]

So why has this obvious phenom been languishing in the minor leagues for so long? Hopper is just BARELY ahead on any kind of fielding scale over a much shorter time span. If you choose to believe that a player, with a much shorter career, can post higher percentages is false, then go for it. I would say that you're just being hardheaded.


Also, other than 2003, Patterson has averaged 135 games a year. To say he is constantly hurt is just silly. His 65 strikeouts last year were a third of what Adam Dunn contributes.