|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300454972' post='977889'] I respectfully disagree. [/quote] I had that same argument with butter bar when I was in the Army... Yeah, that didn't go so well.. I also happen to agree with you... However, there ARE some forms of respect that are natural... For example, you should respect people as people. All people have the right to be treated with dignity and fairness. No one has to earn the "right" to not be treated like shit, or as a lesser individual... No one should have to earn the right to speak their mind without fear of repercussions, as long as speaking their mind is not seeking to deny others their rights as individuals. America is 100% founded on these basic principles. It's why we have a bill of rights. Because there IS a certain amount of respect that we are all entitled to as human beings. That doesn't mean you have to respect the ideas that someone is espousing, but you DO have to respect their right to have those ideals, and to support them vocally or through the written word. To deny this is to deny what it means to be an American. The kind of respect you are referring to is one of a subordinate to their better, as in the relationship between a student and a teacher, or an employee and their boss. I believe the kind of respect most people are asking for here is the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300455933' post='977898'] I had that same argument with butter bar when I was in the Army... Yeah, that didn't go so well.. I also happen to agree with you... However, there ARE some forms of respect that are natural... For example, you should respect people as people. All people have the right to be treated with dignity and fairness. No one has to earn the "right" to not be treated like shit, or as a lesser individual... No one should have to earn the right to speak their mind without fear of repercussions, as long as speaking their mind is not seeking to deny others their rights as individuals. America is 100% founded on these basic principles. It's why we have a bill of rights. Because there IS a certain amount of respect that we are all entitled to as human beings. That doesn't mean you have to respect the ideas that someone is espousing, but you DO have to respect their right to have those ideals, and to support them vocally or through the written word. To deny this is to deny what it means to be an American. The kind of respect you are referring to is one of a subordinate to their better, as in the relationship between a student and a teacher, or an employee and their boss. I believe the kind of respect most people are asking for here is the former. [/quote] Im just going to move on rather than reply with why I dont completely agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300456059' post='977901'] Im just going to move on rather than reply with why I dont completely agree with this. [/quote] No please, I want to hear it. If you can really form such an argument without gagging on the taste of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300456139' post='977902'] No please, I want to hear it. If you can really form such an argument without gagging on the taste of it. [/quote] No because replying what I think about it will just start the thread right back up for the sake of not doing that I am going to disagree and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300455534' post='977896'] How about we just agree to disagree and leave the respect part off it? [/quote] Pretty damned sad that we can't even agree to respectfully disagree. And that you want to ignore the definition of a word. But that's what got us to where we are today. So have it your way. I'm a poet and didn't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'd like to hear it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1300456429' post='977909'] I'd like to hear it as well. [/quote] How about we let it go for the sake of moving on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300456217' post='977904'] No because replying what I think about it will just start the thread right back up for the sake of not doing that I am going to disagree and move on. [/quote] I don't want to you to address issues. Surely you can address the philosophical points I made in the abstract without addressing this specific argument. After all, I didn't touch on any specific issues in my post. I think the matter of respect for individual dignity and right to expression and free thought are at the very crux of this issue... Lets wade in and see where it takes us.. Surely we can all try and remain civil. Actually, the more I think of it, I can see no reason why you wouldn't want to defend you position on this... Don;t just duck it. Your excuse doesn't hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300456823' post='977912'] I don't want to you to address issues. Surely you can address the philosophical points I made in the abstract without addressing this specific argument. After all, I didn't touch on any specific issues in my post. I think the matter of respect for individual dignity and right to expression and free thought are at the very crux of this issue... Lets wade in and see where it takes us.. Surely we can all try and remain civil. Actually, the more I think of it, I can see no reason why you wouldn't want to defend you position on this... Don;t just duck it. Your excuse doesn't hold water. [/quote] If it really interested you we can take that talk to PM, otherwise let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300456968' post='977913'] If it really interested you we can take that talk to PM, otherwise let it go. [/quote] No... Because there is no reason [i]not[/i] to have this discussion.. You can't just say that you don't have to show someone the basic regard of allowing them freedom of thought and speech as well as recognizing their right as individuals to be treated with fairness and dignity.. If you are telling me you don't agree with this basic premise of our democracy you are going to have to defend your position... Otherwise, I don't think [i]I[/i] can respect [i]your[/i] position. And if you can't at least agree to this level of respect for another individual I am not sure it is appropriate for you to have mod privileges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300457284' post='977914'] No... Because there is no reason [i]not[/i] to have this discussion.. You can't just say that you don't have to show someone the basic regard of allowing them freedom of thought and speech as well as recognizing their right as individuals to not be treated with fairness and dignity.. If you are telling me you don't agree with this basic premise of our democracy you are going to have to defend your position... Otherwise, I don't think [i]I[/i] can respect [i]your[/i] position. And if you can't at least agree to this level of respect for another individual I am not sure it is appropriate for you to have mod privileges. [/quote] Your entitled to your opinion but Im moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300457415' post='977915'] Your entitled to your opinion but Im moving on. [/quote] Damn Jamie.. Very disappointing.. I really thought you were better than that. I think this sheds a whole new light on what has been going on here..... And it is very sad. So if people don't have the natural right to freedom of expression, speech and to be treated with dignity and fairness.. Who decides who does? Who defines the criteria of who is "worthy" of being free, and who should be treated as a sub-human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300457629' post='977919'] Damn Jamie.. Very disappointing.. I really thought you were better than that. I think this sheds a whole new light on what has been going on here..... And it is very sad. [/quote] Like I said my viewpoint on it would just flame the thread back up and Im more interested in not doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300457757' post='977921'] Like I said my viewpoint on it would just flame the thread back up and Im more interested in not doing that. [/quote] Lame excuse. I'm sure you can argue the premise of our democracy and the tenets of basic human freedoms without going into contemporary issues. The fact that you refuse makes me question the validity of your stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300457937' post='977923'] Lame excuse. I'm sure you can argue the premise of our democracy and the tenets of basic human freedoms without going into contemporary issues. The fact that you refuse makes me question the validity of your stance. [/quote] Lucid. Let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 For someone who claims to love his country so much that he simply can't let certain ideologies slide due to how "dangerous" they are, it's quite surprising how readily you are willing to shit on the bill of rights. What is really the difference between you and those you claim to oppose? The definition grows murky for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Again your entitled to your opinion, but I'm moving on. I'm asking you again to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300458268' post='977930'] Again your entitled to your opinion, but I'm moving on. I'm asking you again to do the same. [/quote] Why should I respect your request? Have you earned it? In fact, if you really feel this way.. then you have no right to expect to be treated with dignity or fairness. And have no right to complain when these basic civilities are denied you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300458310' post='977931'] Why should I respect your request? Have you earned it? In fact, if you really feel this way.. then you have no right to expect to be treated with dignity or fairness. And have no right to complain when these basic civilities are denied you. [/quote] Either way Im done with this thread and wont respond again. So if you choose to keep going you will be in an echo chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300458631' post='977943'] Either way Im done with this thread and wont respond again. So if you choose to keep going you will be in an echo chamber. [/quote] Obviously I can't force you to be reasonable. However I can take your position to heart and encompass it into my opinion of you. Without a valid explanation I can only assume the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 The last page or so has been disappointing, though not surprising sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1300456600' post='977910'] How about we let it go for the sake of moving on? [/quote] how about you act like an adult an answer the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 The reason I won't let this go, "for the sake of moving on".. Is because there is no "moving on" from this.. It is a mindset. And one which breeds this exact kind of crap.. There is a reason we have a bill of rights with these concepts written into them.. And just like Jamie who feels responsible for "not letting something slide" he deems inappropriate, I refuse to let it slide that a moderator on this site has expressly stated that he doesn't believe people have a right to be treated with dignity and fairness, and that he feels he does not need to respect the concept of free speech and expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300461454' post='977967'] The reason I won't let this go, "for the sake of moving on".. Is because there is no "moving on" from this.. It is a mindset. And one which breeds this exact kind of crap.. There is a reason we have a bill of rights with these concepts written into them.. And just like Jamie who feels responsible for "not letting something slide" he deems inappropriate, I refuse to let it slide that a moderator on this site has expressly stated that he doesn't believe people have a right to be treated with dignity and fairness, and that he feels he does not need to respect the concept of free speech and expression. [/quote] and its not something that ends when this topic ends. Its an issue for every thread going forward in all forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1300455933' post='977898'] I had that same argument with butter bar when I was in the Army... Yeah, that didn't go so well.. I also happen to agree with you... However, there ARE some forms of respect that are natural... For example, you should respect people as people. All people have the right to be treated with dignity and fairness. No one has to earn the "right" to not be treated like shit, or as a lesser individual... No one should have to earn the right to speak their mind without fear of repercussions, as long as speaking their mind is not seeking to deny others their rights as individuals. America is 100% founded on these basic principles. It's why we have a bill of rights. Because there IS a certain amount of respect that we are all entitled to as human beings. That doesn't mean you have to respect the ideas that someone is espousing, but you DO have to respect their right to have those ideals, and to support them vocally or through the written word. To deny this is to deny what it means to be an American. The kind of respect you are referring to is one of a subordinate to their better, as in the relationship between a student and a teacher, or an employee and their boss. I believe the kind of respect most people are asking for here is the former. [/quote] This is the single best post I've ever seen in the J&D forum, and explains why those with different viewpoints generally stay out of this forum. If you don't agree with the circle jerk groupthink here, you're not welcome. There's no open exchange of thoughts. I read these threads cause I want my views to be challenged, but if I can't challenge others views as well while being show respect then there's no point in participating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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