Guest BengalBacker Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Bunghole' post='310624' date='Aug 7 2006, 12:18 AM']I totally see what you are saying. The funny thing is (I was raised Catholic) not too long ago my Dad (the Italian Catholic) wondered aloud about my sons lack of baptism. When I basically said "Dad, what caring God would care if an innocent child that died before their time (if there is such a thing) wasn't baptised?" His reply was that it "couldn't hurt", meaning better safe than sorry, which is one of the things I'm most disillusioned about when it comes to the Catholic faith, at least that portion of it that caters to upper-class white families, whom completely disregard the biblical teachings in their day to day until that hour on Sunday, then they are all solemn and respectful. Why not all the time? Why not even a little more than just Sunday? I recall when my Dad used to elbow my brother and I in the pew when we weren't singing the hymns in church (we were teenagers....what did he expect?), yet he would routinely fall asleep during the Homily, which is the most important part of the mass as it is an interpretation of the New Testament, the words of Jesus, the Gospel. I stopped going as soon as my parents didn't make me anymore as the hypocrisy of it all stank. I even tripped acid in church once as a teenager....nice stainglassed windows they had...[/quote] If they passed out blotter at communion, more people would go. More people would probably see God too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='310628' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:21 PM']If they passed out blotter at communion, more people would go. More people would probably see God too. [/quote] It was pretty freaky. It was one of those things where I had already taken acid a few times in the couple days prior, so I really had to load up to feel anything, yet I simply was tripping for days and didn't realize it. My Mom always wondered why I hugged the Christmas tree in front of family members that year....because the tree and I had a [i]moment[/i].... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BengalBacker Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Bunghole' post='310632' date='Aug 7 2006, 12:26 AM']It was pretty freaky. It was one of those things where I had already taken acid a few times in the couple days prior, so I really had to load up to feel anything, yet I simply was tripping for days and didn't realize it. My Mom always wondered why I hugged the Christmas tree in front of family members that year....because the tree and I had a [i]moment[/i]....[/quote] I understand. I mean, they're so shiny and sparkly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='310636' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:31 PM']I understand. I mean, they're so shiny and sparkly... [/quote] And even though it was artificial, it had [i]life[/i], man.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308137' date='Aug 3 2006, 04:24 PM']I think that in the 15 or 1600's when people were being burned at the cross regularly in europe and early puritan america, that religous gurus were ruling the day. Fuck them. I don't believe in hell. never will. it is a concept that has controlling factors for a minority religious leader. your thoughts? it keeps the money ringing into big churches today. don't dought it...[/quote] The realms of hell and of the heavens are just as real as this world. The eternal damnation part and the eternal salvation bits are misleading but in a sense they are correct, for those realms exist somewhere outside the illusion of time. perhaps in eternity? therefore there is no ability to guage time, it seems like eternity..., but the karmic clock that you wind in your previous incarnation ticks none the less, and when the time is up off you go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='The Scales' post='310865' date='Aug 7 2006, 02:15 PM']The realms of hell are just as real as this world. The eternal damnation part is wrong, as is the eternal salvation, but in a sense they are correct for they exist somewhere in eternity therefore there is no ability to guage time..., but the clock ticks none the less, and when the time is up off you go somewhere else. Anymore questions? [/quote] Glad to see you back, or you were never away and I didn't notice you were here:unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Well shucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='310602' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:29 PM']If we have free will, god can't be omnipotent and omniscient, which means he's not really god.[/quote] free will is the "Suprise me" button of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote]Bengalbacker I have no idea what happens when we die. Christians believe that a murdering rapist who accepts Jesus on his death bed goes to heaven, while a wonderful person who doesn't believe, goes to hell. I ain't buyin' that.[/quote] [quote name='IKOTA' post='310618' date='Aug 6 2006, 11:55 PM']I ain't buyin' that either. I believe a person can become spiritually rehabilitated, but it has to be sincere and between God and that person. How do I as a human know that a person's heart cannot change? I don't, that is between him and God but on his deathbed is a little late in my book also (no pun intended--my personal beliefs)[/quote] There are some misconceptions here: Generally speaking, there are only two methods of salvation in all the religions of the world: grace and works. Christianity is a religion of salvation by grace alone: "For by grace through faith you have been saved, not of works..." (Eph. 2:8-9). All other systems rely totally or in part on the works of the believer to merit salvation. Mormons, for example, say that you are saved by grace through faith after all you can do. In Roman Catholicism, God's grace is infused into a believer that enables him to do good works by which he is judged for salvation. In Islam, forgiveness is based on a combination of Allah's grace and the Muslim's works. On the Day of Judgment, if a Muslim's good works outweigh his bad ones, and if Allah so wills it, he may be forgiven of all his sins and then enter into Paradise. Therefore, Islam is a religion of salvation by works because it combines man's works with Allah's grace. Back to the murdering rapists who excepts Christ on his Death Bed: One of the most nagging questions in Christianity is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38,)? First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign. Baptism Verses John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'" Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about [u]how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born.[/u] Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, [u]but the Spirit gives birth to spirit[/u].." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12).[b] The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).[/b] In other words, [u]don't worry about the murdering rapists repenting on his death bed[/u], a Christian will pray for his soul and God will [b]KNOW[/b] his sincereity of repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote]What if you picked the wrong religion? There are lots of them out there. Each one as nonsensical as the next[/quote]. I can only speak on behalf of Christianity. The truth of Christianity rests completely in the person of Jesus. The gospels are the written accounts, by eyewitnesses, of Jesus' life and deeds. Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58 ;Exodus 3:14), who forgave sins (Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48), and who rose from the dead (Luke 24:24-29; John 2:19-21). Jesus said that He was the only way. [u]Jesus is unique. He was either telling the truth, He was crazy, or He was a liar. But since everyone agrees that Jesus was a good man, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? He had to be telling the truth in order to be good. He is the only way.[/u] Furthermore, [b]Christianity is not just a religion; it is a relationship with God. It is trusting in Jesus and what He did on the cross (1 Cor. 15:1-4), not on what you can do for yourself (Eph. 2:8-9)[/b] PRIDE. It is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies and dependence upon the One who died and rose from the dead (John 2:19-21). Buddha didn't rise from the dead, nor did Confucius or Zoroaster. Muhammad didn't fulfill detailed prophecy or rise from the dead either and though there is far less reliable information written about them, they are believed in. The scripture is right when it says in 1 Pet. 2:7-8, "This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone,' and, 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense'; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed,". [b]It is Jesus who we look to for the validity of Christianity. If Jesus is false, then Christianity is false. If Jesus is who He claimed to be, then Christianity is the only correct religion.[/b] [u]The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy [/u] "The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in [u]Science Speaks [/u] (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man." Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 000,000,000." (This information was taken from the book[u] Evidence that Demands a Verdict[/u], by Josh McDowell.) The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident. [u]He was who He said He was: the only way[/u] (John 14:6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='308721' date='Aug 4 2006, 10:27 AM']damn, i had the perfect piece on this a few days ago. hell if i can remember where i found it. it basically went on to describe how hell could net exist in its described form if there was a god.[/quote] The piece sounds hilariious i hope you find it. [quote name='Jason' post='308724' date='Aug 4 2006, 10:39 AM']So to believe in Jesus requires a belief in Hell.[/quote] LOL I know of both but knowledge of one does not require knowledge of the other. [quote name='BlackJesus' post='308740' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:11 AM'][b]I am still not convinced whether the bible was meant to be read as metaphorical poetry ... or as literal decription. I believe that it is most likely supposed to be interpreted poetically .... and not literally .... thus a hell of fire - is meant metaphorically - not a literal hell of fire .... I think one has to also keep in mind as well that at the time these ideas had to made so that the everyday person could understand them 2,000 years ago ... the best way to describe a really bad place or emptiness - would be to say there is fire everywhere etc. [size=5]I also struggle with the fact how a Mother can truly be in Heaven ... if her child is in hell [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [/b][/size][/quote] because hell is not forever....every stage of the journy is learning...you are in school take the ciriculam. [quote name='Jamie_B' post='308748' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:23 AM']Youve just described what religous scholars have been arguing for centuries. Personally I thik its a bit of both for instance the book of proverbs is an obviouse metaphor right down to the name. But then some of Gensis where they go into the A begat B begat C doesnt seem to be metaporic in nature. This causes a slew of confusion and problems even amongst Christians. Good call.[/quote] THE CONFUSION ARISES BECAUSE IT WAS PUT TOGHETHER PIECE MEAL, by different people with different levels of consciousness and different styles. [quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308857' date='Aug 4 2006, 02:17 PM']But back too hell, there is no way that god could even create such a place. He is the "creator". Satan is the destroyer..[/quote] god is both the creator and destroyer... of this there is no doubt. [quote name='Jason' post='308880' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:06 PM']He created Hell to send Satan there at the end of time. He gave everyone a way to Heaven. If someone chooses to ignore the gift, it is their own fault.[/quote] I've met satan...he ain't shit, And he gets real sour when you laugh at him. [quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308906' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:44 PM']You simply hav one chance in life too live up to gods expectations. you either do or you don't somewhere in the bible it says that god doesn't grade sins by grade. if you sin, you "miss the mark". you are imperfect. we all do. god decides if you have tried hard enough to follow his path. he will not allow you to get your eternal place of peace, wherever you see that being, if you don't follow his guidelines. he will not allow you to suffer an eternity, just go back to dust, like Adam... back to mowing, sorry. then the Bengals game on 12 streaming..[/quote] the unique systemic ego has only one life to live and it wants to live forever so it lies, and lies, and lies... [quote name='Jason' post='308908' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:48 PM']If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. [b] I don't think they believe in Hell.[/b][/quote] incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='IKOTA' post='310613' date='Aug 6 2006, 11:49 PM']The major difference is that Islam claims that there is only 1 God, no trinity and that Muhammad was a messenger of God. His final messenger. All other messengers are mentioned in the Quran and confirmed that they are indeed Prophets. As for Jesus, Islam states that he was not crucified, instead he was taken up into the heavans and God placed someone in his likeness in his place. Jesus will return close to the Day of Judgement and lead the righteous over the wicked led by Dajjal (Anti-Christ). He will restore peace and justice on the Earth. Very general[/quote] IKOTA, I have to commend you on some of your post, they are right on and reflect similarities in ourreligous beliefs. I'll admit, The Holy Trinity is confusing and difficult to grasp. :wuh: I can only hold a comprehensive idea myself. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is [b]ONE[/b] God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God in nature. Each person is not a god in itself. Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God. There are not three gods, but one. We believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one God in all existence. Note: Most Theoligians believe the word "person" is not the best word to use. People already believe in trinities. They just don't know they do. Here is how. Basically, the universe consists of three elements: Time, Space, and Matter. Each of these is comprised of three 'components.' [img]http://www.carm.org/images/pastpresentfuture.gif[/img] 'In the beginning was the word and the [u]word[/u] was with God and the Word was God 2He was in the beginning with God," (John 1:12). and the [u]word[/u] became flesh and dwelt among us. . ." (John 1:14). [u]As for Jesus's crucification, in addition to your (Muslims Theory) there was a Swoon Theory:[/u] The swoon theory is the theory that Jesus never really died on the cross but that He was crucified and came very close to death. It further states that after He was taken down from the cross and laid in the tomb, after three days the coolness of the tomb revived Him and He managed to, roll away the stone, out of the tomb and appear to the disciples making them think He'd risen from the dead. The swoon theory has been thoroughly refuted by many people and very few continue to bring it up as a possibility. The swoon theory falls apart quickly when you consider that Jesus had undergone six trials, been beaten, then scourged with 39 lashes that left His back raw, exposed, and bloody, had a crown of thorns forced upon His head, ripping His scalp, been crucified with nails in the hands and feet, hung there for six hours bleeding and dehydrating, had his side pierced with a spear which emitted blood and water, was left in a tomb for three days, and was tightly wrapped up. Was anyone in this condition able to revive, get himself out of the tight wrappings, walk on pierced feet, and single handedly move a large stone with hands that were unusable due to the wrist piercings which severed the median nerve in the hands and paralyzed them, and then some how got by the armed guards given the charge of watching the grave side? Are we to further believe that Jesus managed to walk a long distance on feet which had been pierced through and appear to the disciples as a victorious conqueror of death? It makes no sense. In fact, it would take more to believe this ridiculous conjecture than it would to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. There is circumstantial evidence that early Muslims believed that Jesus did die. At the death of Muhammad, one of companions, Umar Faruq, drew his sword from the sheath and threatened to behead anyone who dared announce that Muhammad had died. He maintained that he 'had ascended to heaven as Moses had gone to his Lord for a time and would return to punish the hypocrites.' On hearing this, Abu Bakr recited the Quranic verse Âl 'Imran 3:145 and declared: 'Those amongst you who worship God, let them know that God is alive and will remain alive. But those amongst you who worshipped Muhammad, let them know that Muhammad has passed away' (Sahih Bukhari 59.733). With these words, Abu Bakr convinced the early Muslims that Muhammad had died like all other prophets before him. Had the son of Mary been alive, Umar could have argued that if the son of Mary could ascend to heaven and still be alive, why not Muhammad? The fact that Abu Bakr managed to convinced the other early Muslims indicate that the early Muslims did believed that Jesus [b]did die[/b]. [b]Jesus' command over angels[/b] When the religious authorities came to arrest Jesus, one of his disciples (Peter) used a sword and cut off one of the ears of the enemies. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the [u]Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way[/u]?" (Matthew 26:52-54) Jesus' command over angels indicated that Jesus has authority over them. If Jesus was a human only, this biblical assertion would be rather puzzling. Additionally, see what I had underlined, It was prophecized in the Old Testament that he would be put to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='The Scales' post='310947' date='Aug 7 2006, 04:17 PM'] I know of both but knowledge of one does not require knowledge the other.[/quote] Well, to be technical, I guess you don't [b]HAVE[/b] to believe in Hell if you believe in Jesus. But it doesn't make much sense to believe in Jesus and not believe what He taught. Note, when I say [b]believe[/b], I am not simply speaking in the historical sense that Jesus lived, but in the sense that Jesus was the Christ, and the Son of God, and God in the flesh. If you don't believe this, then you are not a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 After that last post, I got to thinking. [b]Where did Jesus go after He died on the cross?[/b] Now, I initially was reverting back to Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ", [b]NO[/b] hijacking thread on Mel Anyways, remember while on the cross, Jesus said "Father, why has thou forsaken thee?" You see, Jesus had the world's sin on his shoulders and [u]God can not look upon sin[/u]. He died. I believe it is herewhere the scene cuts away to Lucifer/Satan looking up screaming. Here is from CARM, but I believe both are plausible. The Bible does not specifically state what happened to Jesus immediately after He died on the cross. Because of this, there is debate surrounding the answer to the question of where He went and what He did. So, I will present differing views so you might know the scope of the answer and decide for yourself which position is preferable. Perhaps the best known scripture that appears to deal with this issue is found in 1 Pet. 3:18-20, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water." When Jesus was made alive in the spirit, it is not saying that His spirit died and then it became alive again. "Made alive in the spirit" is contrasted with "put to death in the flesh." He first lived as mortal men but "...He began to live a spiritual 'resurrection' life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God."1 Furthermore, some Bibles (NIV, KJV, and NKJV) render the verse as "made alive by the Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit's work with Christ. “By the Spirit†translates one word, pneumati, which could refer to the third Person of the Trinity as the agent of Christ’s resurrection.2 One view where Jesus was and what He did before His resurrection is that [b]He went to Hades [/b] (the place of the dead) and made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades/Spirit prison so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them. After all, the Bible says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27). But who were the ones in spiritual prison? Some believe it is the people who were alive at the time of Noah's flood and who were killed in the flood. Others believe it is all humanity who died before the time of the cross. There seems to be support for the former position in 2 Pet. 2:4-5, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly." Needless to say, this passage also raises many questions and much debate can be found as to its precise meaning. Nevertheless, as far as the other option goes, that Jesus simply presented the facts concerning His work on the cross to those in spiritual prison, we can look to Eph. 4:8-9 for possible support. "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men. 9 Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things... Some theologians believe that during the three days between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He descended into Abraham's bosom3 (Luke 16:19-31), proclaimed to them the mystery of the gospel, and then led them into heaven to dwell with God. The belief is that they were not permitted to enter into the presence of God in heaven until after the atonement. Once that had happened, Jesus who had died, descended to Abraham's bosom, proclaimed the gospel, and then led its residents into heaven. So, even though we cannot precisely determine where Jesus was and what He did during those three days, it seems apparent that He presented the gospel message (not to have them get saved) to those in spirit prison and possibly also to those in Abraham's bosom. ask me about the part were it says "the ground was rent" have some material to look for, but it will blow your mind when I find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 ah the trinity....an attempt to explain the oppulance of god... He is the Father, He is the Son, He is the Daughther, He is the Fox, He is the Moon, He is the Sea, He is the mountain, He is Jesus, He is the Physicist, He is the Athesist, He is the Agnostic, He is the atom, HE is me, but not the me that i think i am. He is the Hot boxx dancing next to me at the bar. He is Barry Bonds Shooting Steroids. He is George Bush. He is Jupiter. He is love. He is the space between the strings. He is the sylable Aum. He is the Christian. He is the Buddha. He is lao Tsu. He is my mother. He is the creator. He is the Non Doer. He is the maintaner. He is war. He is Death. He is knowledge, he is the object of knowledge... He is the only thing thats real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Jason' post='310960' date='Aug 7 2006, 03:41 PM']Well, to be technical, I guess you don't [b]HAVE[/b] to believe in Hell if you believe in Jesus. But it doesn't make much sense to believe in Jesus and not believe what He taught. Note, when I say [b]believe[/b], I am not simply speaking in the historical sense that Jesus lived, but in the sense that Jesus was the Christ, and the Son of God, and God in the flesh. If you don't believe this, then you are not a Christian.[/quote] Jesus simplified the rules for the slaves and masses, you know people who couldn't read and write, people of limited intellect mainly due to evironment and upbringing. He was a prophet, he was a son of god, he was a messiah as moses, but he was no more the son of god than I. He is a saviour because he simplified some commandments for those who couldn't read them, he was an example of a pious man, a compassionate individual who was very dear to god. "Love god, and love others as you love god." All else my friend is commentary. If you do that you will see heaven. for a bit... Check it the big boss flashed this across the scales synapse.... Your body is the car the ego drives God sits in the back seat sleeping, and waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IndianaBengal Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='The Scales' post='310865' date='Aug 7 2006, 02:15 PM']but the karmic clock that you wind in your previous incarnation ticks none the less, and when the time is up off you go somewhere else.[/quote] If I read what you say correctly, I agree. When you die. If you don't go to god's desired place for good people, you will become worm food, or if buried shallow, daisy food.. Just ask for the cardboard caket, and you will come to life much quicker.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='IndianaBengal' post='310984' date='Aug 7 2006, 04:22 PM']If I read what you say correctly, I agree. When you die. If you don't go to god's desired place for good people, you will become worm food, or if buried shallow, daisy food.. Just ask for the cardboard caket, and you will come to life much quicker.. [/quote] keep reading but lemme help if i can The consciousness that is the "Real" you gets reborn into another body. A human being should never be reborn as a tree or a frog once it has attained the gift of human consciousness. but i suppose its possible... The consciousness that spent some time in the higher or lower realms comes back; selects a vehicle based on karma and needed knowledge and off you go for another adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IndianaBengal Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Jason. I believe in God. Jesus was/is his son. He died for us. We have a chance to live eternally because of his single action. we aggree on that, correct? is that enough to make me a christian? even though my actions frequently don't live up to expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='The Scales' post='310969' date='Aug 7 2006, 04:57 PM']ah the trinity....an attempt to explain the oppulance of god... He is the Father, He is the Son, He is the Daughther, He is the Fox, He is the Moon, He is the Sea, He is the mountain, He is Jesus, He is the Physicist, He is the Athesist, He is the Agnostic, He is the atom, HE is me, but not the me that i think i am. He is the Hot boxx dancing next to me at the bar. He is Barry Bonds Shooting Steroids. He is George Bush. He is Jupiter. He is love. He is the space between the strings. He is the sylable Aum. He is the Christian. He is the Buddha. He is lao Tsu. He is my mother. He is the creator. He is the Non Doer. He is the maintaner. He is war. He is Death. He is knowledge, he is the object of knowledge... He is the only thing thats real.[/quote] Welcome back Scales oh my bad, I already did that John 5:30-32, [b]"By Myself I can do nothing."[/b] "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 31"If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true," (John 5:30-32). [u]Jehovah's Witnesses [/u] use these verses in their attempt to say that Jesus is not God. They reason that if Jesus were really God in flesh, then He could do anything He wanted to do. But here we see that Jesus says that He can do nothing on His own initiative. If this is true, then how can Jesus be God in flesh? The answer is that Jesus is both God and man in one person. This doctrine is called the [u]hypostatic union[/u]. As a man, Jesus was under the law and was obligated to keep the law (Gal. 4:4). In His humbled state of being lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9), Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man (Phil. 2:5-8). Therefore, He was in complete subjection to the Father so that He might fulfill the law and be the high priest sacrifice for our sins (Heb. 5:10). Furthermore, [b]Jesus did not begin His miracles until His baptism[/b]. It was at that point that the Holy Spirit came upon Him. Therefore, Jesus was performing His miracles not by His own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. This explains why in Matt. 12:22-32 when the Pharisees said that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy on the Holy Spirit of not be forgiven. In other words, Jesus was doing His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit and not under His own divine power which He had laid aside the rightful use of while he walked this earth doing the Father's will. Therefore, these verses do not mean that Jesus is not divine. But it does mean that Jesus, as a man, was completely and totally in submission to the will of the Father and that Jesus would only do the will of the Father as the text clearly says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IndianaBengal Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Lawman' post='311015' date='Aug 7 2006, 06:16 PM'][u]Jehovah's Witnesses [/u] use these verses in their attempt to say that Jesus is not God.[/quote] On the night Jesus was betrayed. He spoke/prayed to his father for help and strength. If he himself was god, he would have needed only to think silently. Correct? and on a topic BB had brought up earlier about dying sinners. Jesus gave a nearly crucified sinner a free pass to heaven when side by side on the crucafix. so that is very possible.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='310614' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:49 PM']What if you picked the wrong religion? [b]Impossible. But i would suggest studying all of them, for how can one understand one's own culture without the perspective of viewing or studying another?[/b] There are lots of them out there. Each one as nonsensical as the next. [b]You may be able to make sense of them someday. Have you really given it the right effort? I must say that if you truly give it the "Right Effort" God will give you the ability to understand.[/b] If god is just, he doesn't care which one I do or don't believe, just what kind of person I am. [b] agreed ,but for some religion helps them to be a better person, and for others it corrupts, or blinds, or heaps ignorance.[/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Lawman' post='311015' date='Aug 7 2006, 05:16 PM']Welcome back Scales oh my bad, I already did that John 5:30-32, [b]"By Myself I can do nothing."[/b] Therefore, these verses do not mean that Jesus is not divine. But it does mean that Jesus, as a man, was completely and totally in submission to the will of the Father and that Jesus would only do the will of the Father as the text clearly says.[/quote] Agreed. "For My [b]yoke[/b] is easy, and My load is light." (Quoting Jesus) -matthew 11:30 [b]yoke[/b] P Pronunciation Key (yk) n. [b]Something that connects or joins together; a bond or tie.[/b] v. intr. [b]To become joined securely.[/b] yo·ga P Pronunciation Key (yg) n. also Yoga A Hindu discipline aimed at training the consciousness for a state of perfect spiritual insight and tranquillity. A system of exercises practiced as part of this discipline to promote control of the body and mind. [Hindi, from Sanskrit yoga, [b]union, joining[/b]. See yeug- in Indo-European Roots.] if one begins to study the Vedanta and the Upanishads and then compares that with the New Testament you might be fukin suprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote name='Lawman' post='310952' date='Aug 7 2006, 03:26 PM']IKOTA, "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the [u]Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way[/u]?" (Matthew 26:52-54) Jesus' command over angels indicated that Jesus has authority over them. If Jesus was a human only, this biblical assertion would be rather puzzling. Additionally, see what I had underlined, It was prophecized in the Old Testament that he would be put to death.[/quote] Jesus had become an enlightened being by that point, therefore he had dominion over angels and demons, when a human being achieves that level of consciousnes he can do so many amazing things that are so far removed from the scope of normal human existance. He can heal the sick, he can read minds, he can't get sick, he can percieve into the true nature of the universe, he can see the future, he can enlighten and teach with a word, he can percieve the exact phrases needed to be spoken that would propel a soul towards freedom... you see angels and demons are jealous of humans for the human being is the only creature of the known world able to achieve enlightenment. Demons and Angles cant fathom it, they are stuck playing their role until the timer is up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 [quote]if one begins to study the Vedanta and the Upanishads and then compares that with the New Testament you might be fukin suprised[/quote] I hate coming into the middle of a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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