Religion @ HELL!!

[Guest IndianaBengal]

I think that in the 15 or 1600's when people were being burned at the cross regularly in europe and early puritan america, that religous gurus were ruling the day. Fuck them. I don't believe in hell. never will. it is a concept that has controlling factors for a minority religious leader. your thoughts? it keeps the money ringing into big churches today. don't dought it...

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308137' date='Aug 3 2006, 05:24 PM']I think that in the 15 or 1600's when people were being burned at the cross regularly in europe and early puritan america, that religous gurus were ruling the day. Fuck them. I don't believe in hell. never will. it is a concept that has controlling factors for a minority religious leader. your thoughts? it keeps the money ringing into big churches today. don't dought it...[/quote]
Your going to hell for saying such things....

[Guest IndianaBengal]

come on. this is the religious forumn, correct? Hell is a concept that is driven into the ground weekly by leaders of churches who rape little boys and collect their earnings tax-free. much like the boars at a pig farm. hell is a $ flow concept. can't believe that so many fall for it..
and btw, i'm a conspiracy theorist. I don't have any faith in any politcal forumn. have no need too. the gov't is out for themselves only. i will never understand people who think otherwise..

[Lawman]

[quote]I think that in the 15 or 1600's when people were being burned at the cross regularly in europe and early puritan america, that religous gurus were ruling the day.[/quote]

Excellent piece I found too witch (pun intended ) you speak of.

[url="http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html"]http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html[/url]

Case Study:
The European Witch-Hunts, c. 1450-1750
and Witch-Hunts Today

[b]Summary[/b]

For three centuries of early modern European history, diverse societies were consumed by a panic over alleged witches in their midst. Witch-hunts, especially in Central Europe, resulted in the trial, torture, and execution of tens of thousands of victims, about three-quarters of whom were women. Arguably, neither before nor since have adult European women been selectively targeted for such largescale atrocities.

[b]The background [/b]

The witch-hunts of early modern Europe took place against a [u]backdrop of rapid social, economic, and religious transformation[/u]. As we will see in the modern-day case-studies below, such generalized stress --[b] including the prevalence of epidemics and natural disasters -- is nearly always central to outbreaks of mass hysteria of this type[/b]. Jenny Gibbons' analysis ties the witch-hunts to other "panics" in early modern Europe:


Traditional [tolerant] attitudes towards witchcraft began to change in the 14th century, at the very end of the Middle Ages. ... Early 14th century central Europe was seized by a series of rumor-panics. [u]Some malign conspiracy (Jews and lepers, Moslems, or Jews and witches) was attempting to destroy the Christian kingdoms through magick and poison.[/u] [b]After the terrible devastation caused by the Black Death [bubonic plague] (1347-1349), these rumors increased in intensity and focused primarily on [u]witches and "plague-spreaders[/u][/b]." Witchcraft cases increased slowly but steadily from the 14th-15th century. The first mass trials appeared in the 15th century. At the beginning of the 16th century, as the first shock-waves from the Reformation hit, the number of witch trials actually dropped. Then, around 1550, the persecution skyrocketed. What we think of as [b]"the Burning Times"[/b] -- [u]the crazes, panics, and mass hysteria -- largely occurred in one century, from 1550-1650[/u]. [b]In the 17th century, the Great Hunt passed nearly as suddenly as it had arisen[/b]. Trials dropped sharply after 1650 and disappeared completely by the end of the 18th century. (Gibbons, "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt".)
Gibbons' allusion to the Reformation reminds us that the clash between [u]institutional Catholicism and emergent Protestantism contributed to the collapse of a stable world-view[/u], which eventually led to panic and hyper-suspiciousness on the part of Catholic and Protestant authorities alike. Writes Nachman Ben-Yehuda, "This helps us understand why only the most rapidly developing countries, where the Catholic church was weakest, experienced a virulent witch craze (i.e., Germany, France, Switzerland). Where the Catholic church was strong (Spain, Italy, Portugal) hardly any witch craze occurred ...[b] the Reformation was definitely the first time that the church had to cope with a large-scale threat to its very existence and legitimacy." [/b] But Ben-Yehuda adds that "[b]Protestants persecuted witches with almost the same zeal as the Catholics ... Protestants and Catholics alike felt threatened." [/b] It is notable that the witch-hunts lost most of their momentum with the end of the Thirty Years War (Peace of Westphalia, 1648), which "gave official recognition and legitimacy to religious pluralism." (Ben-Yehuda, "The European Witch Craze of the 14th to 17th Centuries: A Sociologist's Perspective," American Journal of Sociology, 86: 1 [July 1980], pp. 15, 23.)

The piece goes into Gendercide (

[b]The vast majority of witches were condemned by [u]secular courts[/u]," with local courts especially noted for their persecutory zeal [/b]

Katz draws out the depths of this misogyny through a comparison with anti-semitism:

The medieval conception of women shares much with the corresponding medieval conception of Jews. In both cases, a perennial attribution of secret, bountiful, malicious "power," is made. Women are anathematized and cast as witches because of the enduring grotesque fears they generate in respect of their putative abilities to control men and thereby coerce, for their own ends, male-dominated Christian society. Whatever the social and psychological determinants operative in this abiding obsession, there can be no denying the consequential reality of such anxiety in medieval Christendom. Linked to theological traditions of Eve and Lilith, women are perceived as embodiments of inexhaustible negativity. Though not quite quasi-literal incarnations of the Devil as were Jews, women are, rather, their ontological "first cousins" who, like the Jews, emerge from the "left" or sinister side of being. (Katz, The Holocaust in Historical Context, Vol. I, p. 435.)

The classic evocation of this deranged misogyny is the Malleus maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), published by Catholic inquisition authorities in 1485-86. [img]http://www.gendercide.org/images/pics/witch3.jpg[/img]"All wickedness," write the authors, "is but little to the wickedness of a woman. ... What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an unescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colours. ... Women are by nature instruments of Satan -- they are by nature carnal, a structural defect rooted in the original creation." (Quoted in Katz, The Holocaust in Historical Context, Vol. I, pp. 438-39.) "The importance of the Malleus cannot be overstated," argues Ben-Yehuda:

[b]Male "witches"[/b]

Robin Briggs calculates that 20 to 25 percent of Europeans executed for witchcraft between the 14th and 17th centuries were male. Regional variations are again notable. France was "a fascinating exception to the wider pattern, for over much of the country witchcraft seems to have had no obvious link with gender at all. Of nearly 1,300 witches whose cases went to the parlement of Paris on appeal, just over half were men. ... The great majority of the men accused were poor peasants and artisans, a fairly representative sample of the ordinary population."

[b]Who was responsible? [/b]

The medieval witch-hunts have long been depicted as part of a "war against women" conducted exclusively or overwhelmingly by men, especially those in positions of central authority. Deborah Willis notes that "more polemical" feminist accounts "are likely to portray the witch as a heroic protofeminist resisting patriarchal oppression and a wholly innocent victim of a male-authored reign of terror designed to keep women in their place." (Willis, Malevolent Nurture, p. 12.)

[Nati Ice]

damn, i had the perfect piece on this a few days ago. hell if i can remember where i found it.

it basically went on to describe how hell could net exist in its described form if there was a god.

[Jason]

Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did Heaven. So to believe in Jesus requires a belief in Hell. In fact, most religions have some concept of Hell.

What do you believe, IndianaBengal as far as religion?

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jason' post='308724' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:39 AM']Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did Heaven. So to believe in Jesus requires a belief in Hell. In fact, most religions have some concept of Hell.

What do you believe, IndianaBengal as far as religion?[/quote]

Jason,

I was just going to post what you said.

Jesus said, [i]"And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," [/i] (Matt. 5:29-30).

[Lawman]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='308721' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:27 AM']damn, i had the perfect piece on this a few days ago. hell if i can remember where i found it.

it basically went on to describe how hell could net exist in its described form if there was a god.[/quote]

Nati,

Was it close to this

Gehenna
In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:25)(1). This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27,31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14.
It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."(2) In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.(3) It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30,33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).

[b]Whichever it is, hell is the total absence of the favor of God.[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]I am still not convinced whether the bible was meant to be read as metaphorical poetry ... or as literal decription.

I believe that it is most likely supposed to be interpreted poetically .... and not literally ....

thus a hell of fire - is meant metaphorically - not a literal hell of fire .... I think one has to also keep in mind as well that at the time these ideas had to made so that the everyday person could understand them 2,000 years ago ...

the best way to describe a really bad place or emptiness - would be to say there is fire everywhere etc.


I also struggle with the fact how a Mother can truly be in Heaven ... if her child is in hell [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/b]

[Jamie_B]

[quote]I am still not convinced whether the bible was meant to be read as metaphorical poetry ... or as literal decription.[/quote]

Youve just described what religous scholars have been arguing for centuries.

Personally I thik its a bit of both for instance the book of proverbs is an obviouse metaphor right down to the name. But then some of Gensis where they go into the A begat B begat C doesnt seem to be metaporic in nature.

This causes a slew of confusion and problems even amongst Christians.

Good call.

[ChicagoBengal]

Hell is/was 2/5/2006.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XL"]HELL[/url]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='308787' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:01 PM']Hell is/was 2/5/2006.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XL"]HELL[/url][/quote]





Oh crap, Im still here....

Uh God??

[ChicagoBengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='308790' date='Aug 4 2006, 12:04 PM']
Oh crap, Im still here....

Uh God?? [/quote]


Maybe someone's trying to tell you something.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='308797' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:10 PM']Maybe someone's trying to tell you something.
[/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote]I also struggle with the fact how a Mother can truly be in Heaven ... if her child is in hell[/quote]

Matthew 10:32-37
32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

The one key element in this lengthy passage is the word "sword," and its meaning is now clear. It indicates that following Jesus in his original Jewish society may not bring peace to a family, but may[u] "split"[/u] it up, the precise function of a metaphorical sword. Are his disciples ready for that? This kind of spiritual sword invisibly severs a man from his father, and daughter from her mother, and so on (Micah 7:6). It is only natural that Matthew, the traditional author of the most Jewish of the Gospels, would include a pericope (a unit or section) like 10:32-39. Given Jesus’ own family resistance early on (they later came around), it is only natural he would say that no matter what the cost, one must follow him to the end, even if it means giving up one’s family. But this applies only if the family rejects the new convert, not if the family accepts him in his new faith; he must not reject them because the whole point of Jesus’ advent is to win as many people to his side as possible, even if this divides the world in two, but never violently.

BJ, I had posted in the past (cannot remember the thread) were I said that men and women are equal.
When a man and woman get married, they become on flesh. There is a unity between them. But, it is the man who is the head of the family which is why it says that the man is the head of the woman.

[i]"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ," [/i] (1 Cor. 11:3).

Some may think that this was a cultural notion that snuck into the Bible. But Paul makes it clear that the headship is related to the created order:
(1 Cor. 11:8-10).
8"For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels,"

Finally, the headship issue is an issue of order, not of who is better or more important. The husband is the head of the wife in the family and he has the responsibility of guiding his family to a closer relationship with the Lord. God will require it of him on the day when all our deeds are judged by God.

[Jason]

Good response Lawman.

[Guest IndianaBengal]

[quote name='Jason' post='308724' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:39 AM']Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did Heaven. So to believe in Jesus requires a belief in Hell. In fact, most religions have some concept of Hell.

What do you believe, IndianaBengal as far as religion?[/quote]


1978-1989 I was 5 to 16 yrs old. I was a Jehovahs witness.
1990-present i'm getting old. Church of god. And yes they teach hell. I believe all that the church of god says except the "hell is real" concept. The witness org. on the other hand is a crontrolling sect of society and tries to segragate into their church and limit social availability once you gain entrance.

But back too hell, there is no way that god could even create such a place. He is the "creator". Satan is the destroyer..

[Guest IndianaBengal]

[quote name='Lawman' post='308716' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:17 AM']Excellent piece I found too witch (pun intended ) you speak of.

[url="http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html"]http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html[/url]

Case Study:
The European Witch-Hunts, c. 1450-1750
and Witch-Hunts Today

[b]Summary[/b]

For three centuries of early modern European history, diverse societies were consumed by a panic over alleged witches in their midst. Witch-hunts, especially in Central Europe, resulted in the trial, torture, and execution of tens of thousands of victims, about three-quarters of whom were women. Arguably, neither before nor since have adult European women been selectively targeted for such largescale atrocities.

[b]The background [/b]

The witch-hunts of early modern Europe took place against a [u]backdrop of rapid social, economic, and religious transformation[/u]. As we will see in the modern-day case-studies below, such generalized stress --[b] including the prevalence of epidemics and natural disasters -- is nearly always central to outbreaks of mass hysteria of this type[/b]. Jenny Gibbons' analysis ties the witch-hunts to other "panics" in early modern Europe:
Traditional [tolerant] attitudes towards witchcraft began to change in the 14th century, at the very end of the Middle Ages. ... Early 14th century central Europe was seized by a series of rumor-panics. [u]Some malign conspiracy (Jews and lepers, Moslems, or Jews and witches) was attempting to destroy the Christian kingdoms through magick and poison.[/u] [b]After the terrible devastation caused by the Black Death [bubonic plague] (1347-1349), these rumors increased in intensity and focused primarily on [u]witches and "plague-spreaders[/u][/b]." Witchcraft cases increased slowly but steadily from the 14th-15th century. The first mass trials appeared in the 15th century. At the beginning of the 16th century, as the first shock-waves from the Reformation hit, the number of witch trials actually dropped. Then, around 1550, the persecution skyrocketed. What we think of as [b]"the Burning Times"[/b] -- [u]the crazes, panics, and mass hysteria -- largely occurred in one century, from 1550-1650[/u]. [b]In the 17th century, the Great Hunt passed nearly as suddenly as it had arisen[/b]. Trials dropped sharply after 1650 and disappeared completely by the end of the 18th century. (Gibbons, "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt".)
Gibbons' allusion to the Reformation reminds us that the clash between [u]institutional Catholicism and emergent Protestantism contributed to the collapse of a stable world-view[/u], which eventually led to panic and hyper-suspiciousness on the part of Catholic and Protestant authorities alike. Writes Nachman Ben-Yehuda, "This helps us understand why only the most rapidly developing countries, where the Catholic church was weakest, experienced a virulent witch craze (i.e., Germany, France, Switzerland). Where the Catholic church was strong (Spain, Italy, Portugal) hardly any witch craze occurred ...[b] the Reformation was definitely the first time that the church had to cope with a large-scale threat to its very existence and legitimacy." [/b] But Ben-Yehuda adds that "[b]Protestants persecuted witches with almost the same zeal as the Catholics ... Protestants and Catholics alike felt threatened." [/b] It is notable that the witch-hunts lost most of their momentum with the end of the Thirty Years War (Peace of Westphalia, 1648), which "gave official recognition and legitimacy to religious pluralism." (Ben-Yehuda, "The European Witch Craze of the 14th to 17th Centuries: A Sociologist's Perspective," American Journal of Sociology, 86: 1 [July 1980], pp. 15, 23.)

The piece goes into Gendercide (

[b]The vast majority of witches were condemned by [u]secular courts[/u]," with local courts especially noted for their persecutory zeal [/b]

Katz draws out the depths of this misogyny through a comparison with anti-semitism:

The medieval conception of women shares much with the corresponding medieval conception of Jews. In both cases, a perennial attribution of secret, bountiful, malicious "power," is made. Women are anathematized and cast as witches because of the enduring grotesque fears they generate in respect of their putative abilities to control men and thereby coerce, for their own ends, male-dominated Christian society. Whatever the social and psychological determinants operative in this abiding obsession, there can be no denying the consequential reality of such anxiety in medieval Christendom. Linked to theological traditions of Eve and Lilith, women are perceived as embodiments of inexhaustible negativity. Though not quite quasi-literal incarnations of the Devil as were Jews, women are, rather, their ontological "first cousins" who, like the Jews, emerge from the "left" or sinister side of being. (Katz, The Holocaust in Historical Context, Vol. I, p. 435.)

The classic evocation of this deranged misogyny is the Malleus maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), published by Catholic inquisition authorities in 1485-86. [img]http://www.gendercide.org/images/pics/witch3.jpg[/img]"All wickedness," write the authors, "is but little to the wickedness of a woman. ... What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an unescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colours. ... Women are by nature instruments of Satan -- they are by nature carnal, a structural defect rooted in the original creation." (Quoted in Katz, The Holocaust in Historical Context, Vol. I, pp. 438-39.) "The importance of the Malleus cannot be overstated," argues Ben-Yehuda:

[b]Male "witches"[/b]

Robin Briggs calculates that 20 to 25 percent of Europeans executed for witchcraft between the 14th and 17th centuries were male. Regional variations are again notable. France was "a fascinating exception to the wider pattern, for over much of the country witchcraft seems to have had no obvious link with gender at all. Of nearly 1,300 witches whose cases went to the parlement of Paris on appeal, just over half were men. ... The great majority of the men accused were poor peasants and artisans, a fairly representative sample of the ordinary population."

[b]Who was responsible? [/b]

The medieval witch-hunts have long been depicted as part of a "war against women" conducted exclusively or overwhelmingly by men, especially those in positions of central authority. Deborah Willis notes that "more polemical" feminist accounts "are likely to portray the witch as a heroic protofeminist resisting patriarchal oppression and a wholly innocent victim of a male-authored reign of terror designed to keep women in their place." (Willis, Malevolent Nurture, p. 12.)[/quote]

thanks for the post...

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308857' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:47 PM']1978-1989 I was 5 to 16 yrs old. I was a Jehovahs witness.
1990-present i'm getting old. Church of god. And yes they teach hell. I believe all that the church of god says except the "hell is real" concept. The witness org. on the other hand is a crontrolling sect of society and tries to segragate into their church and limit social availability once you gain entrance.

But back too hell, [b]there is no way that god could even create such a place[/b]. He is the [b]"creator". [/b] Satan is the destroyer..[/quote]

[Jason]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308857' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:17 PM']1978-1989 I was 5 to 16 yrs old. I was a Jehovahs witness.
1990-present i'm getting old. Church of god. And yes they teach hell. I believe all that the church of god says except the "hell is real" concept. The witness org. on the other hand is a crontrolling sect of society and tries to segragate into their church and limit social availability once you gain entrance.

But back too hell, there is no way that god could even create such a place. He is the "creator". Satan is the destroyer..[/quote]

He created Hell to send Satan there at the end of time. He gave everyone a way to Heaven. If someone chooses to ignore the gift, it is their own fault.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308857' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:47 PM']1978-1989 I was 5 to 16 yrs old. I was a Jehovahs witness.
1990-present i'm getting old. Church of god. And yes they teach hell. I believe all that the church of god says except the "hell is real" concept. The witness org. on the other hand is a crontrolling sect of society and tries to segragate into their church and limit social availability once you gain entrance.

But back too hell, there is no way that god could even create such a place. He is the "creator". Satan is the destroyer..[/quote]


I am curious, what to do with people who have killed again and again and have raped and etc... What happens to these people if there is no hell? Also, what would stop people from doing whatever they please? What about all the rulers in history who treated their people unjustly and were responsible for the deaths/lives of countless people?

[Guest IndianaBengal]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='308890' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:20 PM']I am curious, what to do with people who have killed again and again and have raped and etc... What happens to these people if there is no hell? Also, what would stop people from doing whatever they please? What about all the rulers in history who treated their people unjustly and were responsible for the deaths/lives of countless people?[/quote]
i'm in the middle of cutting the grass, had to piss, so i'll be brief. You simply hav one chance in life too live up to gods expectations. you either do or you don't somewhere in the bible it says that god doesn't grade sins by grade. if you sin, you "miss the mark". you are imperfect. we all do. god decides if you have tried hard enough to follow his path. he will not allow you to get your eternal place of peace, wherever you see that being, if you don't follow his guidelines. he will not allow you to suffer an eternity, just go back to dust, like Adam...
back to mowing, sorry. then the Bengals game on 12 streaming..

[Jason]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308906' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:44 PM']i'm in the middle of cutting the grass, had to piss, so i'll be brief. You simply hav one chance in life too live up to gods expectations. you either do or you don't somewhere in the bible it says that god doesn't grade sins by grade. if you sin, you "miss the mark". you are imperfect. we all do. god decides if you have tried hard enough to follow his path. he will not allow you to get your eternal place of peace, wherever you see that being, if you don't follow his guidelines. he will not allow you to suffer an eternity, just go back to dust, like Adam...
back to mowing, sorry. then the Bengals game on 12 streaming..[/quote]

If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. I don't think they believe in Hell.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308906' date='Aug 4 2006, 06:14 PM']i'm in the middle of cutting the grass, had to piss, so i'll be brief. You simply hav one chance in life too live up to gods expectations. you either do or you don't somewhere in the bible it says that god doesn't grade sins by grade. if you sin, you "miss the mark". you are imperfect. we all do. god decides if you have tried hard enough to follow his path. he will not allow you to get your eternal place of peace, wherever you see that being, if you don't follow his guidelines. he will not allow you to suffer an eternity, just go back to dust, like Adam...
back to mowing, sorry. then the Bengals game on 12 streaming..[/quote]


Where is the justice in this? Or do you not believe in God upholding justice? What about the people that rulers are responsible for, say they let the people starve while they lived a luxurious life? Do they just go back to dust? What about your soul? Where does it go?

Sorry if I am coming off as antagonistic, certainly not my intent.

I would love to have an atheist fill me in as to what they think regarding these matters....anyone??? I don't want to debate, just want to get your take on these things.

[Lawman]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308859' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:20 PM']thanks for the post... [/quote]

Your welcome

Just to stroke your curiosity, I was watching the History Channel and the show was about the Knights Templars (now I had caught this once before, came into part of it, caught a cat nap just in time to catch the last 20 minutes, did the same thing this time ).

Knights Templar background:

The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici), popularly known as the Knights Templar, was one of the most famous of the Christian military orders. It existed for about two centuries in the Middle Ages, created in the aftermath of the First Crusade of 1096 to ensure the safety of the large numbers of European pilgrims who flowed towards Jerusalem after its conquest.

The Templars were an unusual order in that they were both monks and soldiers, making them in effect some of the earliest "warrior monks" in the Western world. Members of the Order played a key part in many battles of the Crusades, and the Order's infrastructure innovated many financial techniques that could be considered the foundation of modern banking. The Order grew in membership and power throughout Europe, [u]until it ran afoul of King Philip IV of France (Philip the Fair), who caused many of the order's members in France to be tortured into confessions and burned at the stake. Under influence from King Philip, Pope Clement V then forcibly disbanded the order in 1314[/u]

Now, Philip was nicknamed the Fair (le Bel) because of his [u]handsome appearance[/u] not his demeanor.
Philip arrested Jews so he could seize their assets to accommodate the inflated costs of modern warfare; he was condemned by his enemies in the Catholic Church for his spendthrift lifestyle. When he also levied taxes on the French clergy of one half their annual income, he caused an uproar within the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy, prompting Pope Boniface VIII to issue the Bull "Clericis Laicos" forbidding the transferance of any church property to the French Crown. Still, Philip emerged victorious when the French archbishop Bertrand de Goth was elected pope as Clement V and the official seat of the papacy moved to Avignon, an enclave surrounded by French territories.

On October 13, 1307, hundreds of Knights Templar in France were simultaneously arrested by agents of Philip the Fair, to be later tortured into admitting heresy in the Order. The Knights Templar were a 200-year-old military order, supposedly answerable only to the Pope. But Philip used his influence over Clement V, who was largely his pawn, to disband the order and remove its ecclesiastical status and protection in order to plunder it.

What became of the Templar treasures in France has long been a mystery that has led to many theories and speculations. There are a number of stories regarding Templars who escaped from Philip's agents, such as the tale that a number of ships sailed from France to Scotland possibly containing some of the Templar treasure, and that some of the Knights who sailed to Scotland later fought in the Battle of Bannockburn with Robert the Bruce when the Scots gained their independence from England ("Braveheart" the story of William Wallace.)

A modern historical view is that Philip, who seized the considerable Templar treasury and broke up the [b]Templar monastic banking system[/b], simply sought to control it for himself. In 1314, he had the last Grand Master of the Templars, Jacques de Molay, burnt at the stake in Paris. According to legend, de Molay cursed both Philip and Clement V from the flames, saying that he would summon them before God's Tribunal within a year; as it turned out, both King and Pope died within the next year.

Philip IV's rule signaled the decline of the papacy's power from its near complete authority. He died during a hunt and is buried in Saint Denis Basilica. He was succeeded by his son Louis X.

So, again you see a secular entity behind stake burnings.

Now, if I can expand a little, there was also tales that the Templar Knights escaped France through the Alps.
A story tells of a victoriuos battle won by Swiss peasant of approx 1500 over an Austrian army totally 5000, it has been told that Kniht templars assisted the Peasants. But, what i wanted to look at is Switzerland itself.
The Swiss Flag is a Red Cross on a White Field[img]
[url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/125px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png"]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...zerland.svg.png[/url][/img]

The Templars were easily recognized, [u]with a white surcoat with distinct red cross emblazoned above the heart or on the chest[/u], as seen in many portrayals of crusading knights.

[b]Some brothers were devoted solely to banking [/b] (typically those with an education), as the Order was often trusted with the safekeeping of precious goods by participants in the Crusades; but the primary mission of the Knights Templar was warfare.

Think of Swiss Bank accounts.

Lastly, [b]The Papal [u]Swiss[/u] Guard [/b] in the Vatican was founded in 1506 and is the only Swiss Guard that still exists. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]