Religion @ HELL!!

[Guest IndianaBengal]

[quote name='Jason' post='308908' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:48 PM']If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. I don't think they believe in Hell.[/quote]

jason. i will get back to you. after the scrimage. i will. even if tommorow..

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='308149' date='Aug 3 2006, 03:45 PM']come on. this is the religious forumn, correct? Hell is a concept that is driven into the ground weekly by leaders of churches who rape little boys and collect their earnings tax-free. much like the boars at a pig farm. hell is a $ flow concept. can't believe that so many fall for it..
and btw, i'm a conspiracy theorist. I don't have any faith in any politcal forumn. have no need too. the gov't is out for themselves only. i will never understand people who think otherwise..[/quote]
You are painting religion and our government with a REALLY broad and big brush.
Molestation is the exception, not the rule, and is getting wide media coverage due to it's obviously heinous nature and the fact that some churches like the Catholic Church were complicit in some ways with some of these behaviors and attempted to sweep it under the rug. think about how big the Catholic Church is, how many people are followers, initiates and clergy. Your statistical chances for having a few turds in the bucket rises dramatically when you talk about an organization that religiously and economically employs millions of people.
You can make the same statistical argument for our government and armed forces as well.

[TheBZ]

[quote name='Jason' post='308908' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:48 PM']If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. I don't think they believe in Hell.[/quote]

I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from...But you are throwing around statements pretty haphazardly.

If you believe the bible more as interpretive or narrative, it is no stretch to conceptualize hell without the fire and brimstone or wailing souls.

As someone else said, you start with an absence of God, or a lack of relationship with God...And throw your imagination into what that is like.

For many, this is exactly the reality of everyday life...And that doesn't result in flames bursting from the earth beneath their feet.

Obvsously, this is drawn from my personal interpretation...But suffering and loneliness takes different forms for everyone.

It could be as simple as boredom or deptression, and as extreme as non-stop self-destructive behaviour...But the concept remains that NOT having a relationship with God leaves a hole, and leaves something unused in the human experience.

I believe that we pay for it while living, just as much as we pay for it when dead...If not more so. Because honestly...The thought of nothingness is far more intimidating than suffering and awareness. I would gladly choose the latter over simply ceasing to exist or having no actualized meaning.

As with many things, I think Jesus contextualized hell in context with the times...And a suffering by fire was an imaginable fate...An unwanted fate.

That's hardly the thing that is going to intimidate or direct a 21st Century thinking Christian...But loneliness and meaninglessness...Because they already infringe on our lives...Make a very palpable hell.

Keep on searching, Indiana...The faith you find will be your own.

BZ

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='309385' date='Aug 4 2006, 08:15 PM']I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from...But you are throwing around statements pretty haphazardly.

If you believe the bible more as interpretive or narrative, it is no stretch to conceptualize hell without the fire and brimstone or wailing souls.

As someone else said, you start with an absence of God, or a lack of relationship with God...And throw your imagination into what that is like.

For many, this is exactly the reality of everyday life...And that doesn't result in flames bursting from the earth beneath their feet.

Obvsously, this is drawn from my personal interpretation...But suffering and loneliness takes different forms for everyone.

It could be as simple as boredom or deptression, and as extreme as non-stop self-destructive behaviour...But the concept remains that NOT having a relationship with God leaves a hole, and leaves something unused in the human experience.

I believe that we pay for it while living, just as much as we pay for it when dead...If not more so. Because honestly...The thought of nothingness is far more intimidating than suffering and awareness. I would gladly choose the latter over simply ceasing to exist or having no actualized meaning.

As with many things, I think Jesus contextualized hell in context with the times...And a suffering by fire was an imaginable fate...An unwanted fate.

That's hardly the thing that is going to intimidate or direct a 21st Century thinking Christian...But loneliness and meaninglessness...Because they already infringe on our lives...Make a very palpable hell.

Keep on searching, Indiana...The faith you find will be your own.

BZ[/quote]
Dammit, stop making sense! We aren't SUPPOSED to agree because of our diametrically opposed views on all things political! Agreement between political opposites is DANGEROUS for this country...

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jason' post='308908' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:48 PM']If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. I don't think they believe in Hell.[/quote]

Jason,
Your comment made me think of Scales, haven't heard from him in awhile

[TheBZ]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='309391' date='Aug 4 2006, 10:23 PM']Dammit, stop making sense! We aren't SUPPOSED to agree because of our diametrically opposed views on all things political! Agreement between political opposites is DANGEROUS for this country... [/quote]

Don't worry...I'm only a post and a half away from crossing the lines into your territory.

Then, it can be 'ON' again.



BZ

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='308921' date='Aug 4 2006, 05:17 PM']I would love to have an atheist fill me in as to what they think regarding these matters....anyone??? I don't want to debate, just want to get your take on these things.[/quote]


Well since you asked.

I'm amazed at how many people think they have it all figured out. I'm equally amazed at how many people think they ever will figure it all out. The answers, if there are any, are beyond our comprehension, unless you want to know them so bad that you decide to believe in something.

Once you have decided to believe in something, you can rationalize your beliefs in astounding ways.

The only thing I believe is that all religions I'm familiar with are complete and utter bullshit. Beyond that, I don't claim to know about the beginning or end of time, whether or not there is some sort of afterlife that metes out reward or punishment. I think anyone who claims to know these things is either a fool or a liar, either to themselves or others, or both.

Some people need religion to feel whole, or a sense of purpose, or a reason to be a decent human being. Some of us don't. If there is a "god" and if this "god" is judging me and deciding my fate, as long as it is a just god, I'm comfortable with what I think will be my outcome. If this "god" is not just, then we're all fucked anyway.




Edit: I don't say this with the intention of offending anyone. It's just honestly what I think.

[|BengalsFREAK|]

I typically don't post over in these waters. I would like to bring up what I think is a great point.


If you were to view religion from the aspect of being brand new to it, and having no pre-conceived notion of any religion at all. Meaning that you had never heard of Christianity, Judasim, Buddism, Muslim, or ANY organized religion period. If you know NOTHING about anything to do with any kind of religion at all...


What makes Scientology and the Xenu shit any less believable than a magical, invisible ghost in the sky that punishes people to a firey pit if they don't worship his very existance? Honestly...compare the two. If you had never been introduced to Christianity, or whatever you believe in....what makes your version of religion any less fucked up sounding than the kooks that believe in Scientology. For the record, I am not a fan of, nor do I believe in Scientology. I think it's a giant hoax that's designed to make money. However, people are quick to scoff at Scientology because it sounds so weird. However, with an unbiased eye, is it really any more rediculous than what most folks believe in?

Think real hard, and real deep about it. Think from a different angle and view than you've ever thought about religion before. Be completely unbiased.

It's hard to say which would be more believable. The magical, all knowing, invisible ghost in the sky, or the freakish, sci-fi alien who is preying on people with low theton levels...lol.

Things such as Noah's Arc are the epitomy of human exaggeration within the Bible. No arc, built by any man, could possibly hold two of every animal in his region. He'd have had to have built a boat the size of Cincinnati to even conceivably host that many animals, PLUS the food to feed them, for 40 days. Is THAT really supposed to be more believable than anything in any other religion?

My beliefs? I believe that there are some truths to the Bible. I believe that religion was necessary to control the human race back in a time when there weren't any rules to live by. I believe that there just might be something out there. I just want some sort of proof. Any real proof would be fine by me. Not just someone telling me "You will burn in hell for not believing!". That doesn't work for me. No omnipotent being, such as God, would be foolish enough to create man in his own image and expect them to believe that he exists without proof. If we are like God, then he would know that he himself would want proof of such power. The God I would believe in, would be better than that. If God is all knowing, perfect, and all powerful, then he wouldn't play these mind games. As I've said, I want to believe. I'm desperate to believe, but I just want something to hold onto other than words and a book that was written (and exaggerated) by man.

That's all I've got for now. There's more in my twisted head, but I'm tired...lol. Once again, I want to believe that there is a God out there, but I don't want people quoting the bible towards me in an attempt to make me a believer. Words mean nothing to me when it comes to religion. Most of it has been so exagerrated through time that it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

[Storm]

Don't believe in Heaven, Hell or Santa Claus

[Lawman]

[quote]Edit: I don't say this with the intention of offending anyone. It's just honestly what I think.[/quote]

Thank you for your frankness


[quote]Some people need religion to feel whole, or a sense of purpose, or a reason to be a decent human being. Some of us don't.[/quote]

Disclaimer: I am posting response to this first because it is important for all to understand; atheist and agnostics are fine citizens, honest, caring, loving, and patient individuals. Atheist/Agnostics are not evil, stupid, devil-worshipping, degenerates lacking morals. This is not a condenscending statement merely an attempt to clarify my position.

[quote]I'm amazed at how many people think they have it all figured out. I'm equally amazed at how many people think they ever will figure it all out. The answers, if there are any, are beyond our comprehension, unless you want to know them so bad that you decide to believe in something.

Once you have decided to believe in something, you can rationalize your beliefs in astounding ways.

The only thing I believe is that all religions I'm familiar with are complete and utter bullshit. Beyond that, I don't claim to know about the beginning or end of time, whether or not there is some sort of afterlife that metes out reward or punishment. I think anyone who claims to know these things is either a fool or a liar, either to themselves or others, or both.[/quote]

BB, please see illustration below; Thanks Homer [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Classical-Definition-of-Kno.gif[/img]

Sometimes, when people say they 'believe in' something, what they mean is that they predict that it will prove to be useful or successful in some sense - perhaps someone might 'believe in' his or her favorite football team. [u]This is not what Epistemologists mean[/u].

In the second sense of belief, to believe something just means to think that it is true. That is, to believe P is to do no more than to think, for whatever reason, that P is the case. The reason is that in order to know something, one must think that it is true - one must believe (in the second sense) it to be the case.

Consider someone saying "I know that P, but I don't think that P is true". The person making this utterance has, in a profound sense, contradicted himself. If one knows P, then, among other things, one thinks that P is indeed true. If one thinks that P is true, then one believes P. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_paradox"](See: Moore's paradox.)[/url]

Knowledge is distinct from [u]belief[/u] and [u]opinion[/u]. If someone claims to believe something, he is claiming that he thinks that it is the truth. But of course, it might turn out that he was mistaken, and that what he thought was true was actually false. This is not the case with knowledge. For example, suppose that Jeff thinks that a particular bridge is safe, and attempts to cross it; unfortunately the bridge collapses under his weight. We might say that Jeff believed that the bridge was safe, but that his belief was mistaken. We would not say that he knew that the bridge was safe, because plainly it was not. For something to count as knowledge, it must be true.

Similarly, two people can believe things that are mutually contradictory, but they cannot know (unequivocally) things that are mutually contradictory. For example, Jeff can believe the bridge is safe, while Joe believes it unsafe. But Jeff cannot know the bridge is safe and Joe cannot know that the bridge is unsafe simultaneously. Two people cannot know contradictory things.

One of us is Joe while the other is Jeff.

For me:

[b]Proposition:[/b] There is a God.

[b]Beliefs:[/b] Jesus existed, Jesus is represented as the Son/Word in the Godhead of the "Holy trinity".
Essentials of Christianity. All life on earth was created by God with a design and a purpose -- life did not evolve!

[b]Truths:[/b] As evidence: Non-biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people

[b]Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian)[/b] mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

[b]Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?)[/b] mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

[b]Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) [/b] mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

[b]Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?)[/b] mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

[b]Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian)[/b] mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."


[b]Thallus Circa AD 52[/b], eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. [b]Julius Africanus [/b] who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.

[b]Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers[/b], ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

[b]Pliny the Younger [/b] mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

[b]The Talmud [/b]

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Luke 22:1, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

[b]Lucian (circa 120-after 180)[/b] mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

[b]Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13[/b], in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

[b]Though Lucian opposed Christianity[/b], he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

[b]Additionally:[/b]

Scientific Accuracies of the Bible

[u] Many people doubt the Bible for various reasons. One of them is that the Bible is not accurate scientifically. But this just isn't so. The Bible is not a book about science, but when it does speak scientifically, it is accurate. In fact, it was far ahead of any other writing of its time. Please consider the following.[/u]

The Shape of the Earth
"He sits enthroned above the [u]circle[/u] of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22,).

[i]It would be some time before people would understand the world to be round.[/i]
The Earth is suspended in nothing
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job. 26:7).

[u]This is particularly interesting considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.[/u]

[b]The Concept of Entropy [/b]
"In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:22-26)

[b]The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas [/b] - "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8).

[b]The reliability of the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, Homer, and other's. [/b]
[u]No other ancient writing can boast of having copies so close to the original time of writing. With the Bible, the difference is about 50 years. With Plato and Aristotle, for example, the difference is measure in hundreds of years. [/u]


[b]Knowledge[/b]: It takes a seed, dirt, water and the sun to grow corn. Without these you have nothing.
Add oxygen, now man can exist.


Note:

I do not have the complete understanding of Epistemology, what I present is how best I understand it and the best way I can explain it. Hope I didn't confuse too much.

Homer will be around to correct me. Homer, please do. Thanks in advance.

[Guest IndianaBengal]

[quote name='Jason' post='308908' date='Aug 4 2006, 04:48 PM']If that is your belief, then you don't believe the Bible. Why bother with the Christian religion at all then? Become a Budhist. I don't think they believe in Hell.[/quote]


Jason, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. But look at it this way. What about the guy who doesn't go to his church his whole life. He knows about christianity. His wife goes to church. She tries to spread the gospel when she can. He knows it, but he chooses not to participate. Now lets say he is an upstanding citezen, gives money to needy children. But he never gives the church or spreading the gospel any consideration. When judgement day comes and god says, " you did not spread the gospel, no room for you in my kingdom now!!!", do you really think that god is going to send this guy to hell to be picked apart by the guys from deliverance or burned by gargoyles with flaming pitchforks for eternity??

The bible is full of metaphors and symbolic metaphors. The dead sea scrolls were found not so long ago. They have a much more accurate depiction of how the bible was supposed to be written in its original apostles forumns. Much of what the King James and closely related bibles entail have been diluted through the centuries.. Clergyman have used it for the good of their pockets for centuries. I'm not trying to push my veiws on anyone here. Just telling you why I believe what I do...

[Jason]

[quote name='IndianaBengal' post='310377' date='Aug 6 2006, 01:20 PM']Jason, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. But look at it this way. What about the guy who doesn't go to his church his whole life. He knows about christianity. His wife goes to church. She tries to spread the gospel when she can. He knows it, but he chooses not to participate. Now lets say he is an upstanding citezen, gives money to needy children. But he never gives the church or spreading the gospel any consideration. When judgement day comes and god says, " you did not spread the gospel, no room for you in my kingdom now!!!", do you really think that god is going to send this guy to hell to be picked apart by the guys from deliverance or burned by gargoyles with flaming pitchforks for eternity??

The bible is full of metaphors and symbolic metaphors. The dead sea scrolls were found not so long ago. They have a much more accurate depiction of how the bible was supposed to be written in its original apostles forumns. Much of what the King James and closely related bibles entail have been diluted through the centuries.. Clergyman have used it for the good of their pockets for centuries. I'm not trying to push my veiws on anyone here. Just telling you why I believe what I do...[/quote]

No problem.

That is one way to look at it. But here is another. The creator of the universe says "I created heaven and hell. Hell was meant for Satan and his followers. But I am a just and holy God, and I expect perfection. But I also know that man cannot be perfect. So I gave you another way. And I did all the work. All you have to do is accept my gift. Do so, and you go to Heaven. Do otherwise and you go to Hell."

He made the universe, He made the rules, and He made it pretty easy. And He made it simple. A or B, and you get to choose. No other religion teaches that. (Muslims don't know if they go to Paradise or not unless you die the right way.) He did all the work. Now, knowing that, if you choose not to accept the gift, that is your choice. You sent yourself to hell, and I'm sure God mourns for every soul that chooses hell.

Yes, "the church" has screwed up. Several times. But "the church" is made up of fallible people, and people screw up. Don't disbelieve what God has said because of the mistakes of fallible mankind.

Most reputible bibles try to use the oldest manuscripts available in their writings. The NIV was translated not from the KJV, or the Vulgate, but from the oldest manuscripts available, including the Dead Sea scrolls.

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Jason' post='310517' date='Aug 6 2006, 08:35 PM']No problem.

That is one way to look at it. But here is another. The creator of the universe says "I created heaven and hell. Hell was meant for Satan and his followers. But I am a just and holy God, and I expect perfection. But I also know that man cannot be perfect. So I gave you another way. And I did all the work. All you have to do is accept my gift. Do so, and you go to Heaven. Do otherwise and you go to Hell."

He made the universe, He made the rules, and He made it pretty easy. And He made it simple. A or B, and you get to choose. No other religion teaches that. (Muslims don't know if they go to Paradise or not unless you die the right way.) He did all the work. Now, knowing that, if you choose not to accept the gift, that is your choice. You sent yourself to hell, and I'm sure God mourns for every soul that chooses hell.

Yes, "the church" has screwed up. Several times. But "the church" is made up of fallible people, and people screw up. Don't disbelieve what God has said because of the mistakes of fallible mankind.

Most reputible bibles try to use the oldest manuscripts available in their writings. The NIV was translated not from the KJV, or the Vulgate, but from the oldest manuscripts available, including the Dead Sea scrolls.[/quote]


A just and holy god doesn't allow satan or hell to exist. An evil and unholy god might.


I'm pretty sure there are some very old writings that praise all sorts of gods. Many of them believing that human sacrifice is the way to appease them. Antiquity of writings has no bearing on their validity.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='310532' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:43 PM']A just and holy god doesn't allow satan or hell to exist. An evil and unholy god might.
I'm pretty sure there are some very old writings that praise all sorts of gods. Many of them believing that human sacrifice is the way to appease them. Antiquity of writings has no bearing on their validity.[/quote]

Backer, I am curious to know what you believe happens to people who are "evil and unholy"? What do you think happens to murders, unjust leaders and the like after they die? Again, I have not talked with Atheists at length about this so I am curious.

[quote]A just and holy god doesn't allow satan or hell to exist. An evil and unholy god might.[/quote]

What about innocent people who are killed, taken from their loved ones. Do their killers stand in front of God and he says, well you did kill people but you go to heavan anyways? Where is the justice in that?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jason' post='310517' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:05 PM']No problem.

That is one way to look at it. But here is another. The creator of the universe says "I created heaven and hell. Hell was meant for Satan and his followers. But I am a just and holy God, and I expect perfection. But I also know that man cannot be perfect. So I gave you another way. And I did all the work. All you have to do is accept my gift. Do so, and you go to Heaven. Do otherwise and you go to Hell."

He made the universe, He made the rules, and He made it pretty easy. And He made it simple. A or B, and you get to choose. No other religion teaches that. [b](Muslims don't know if they go to Paradise or not unless you die the right way.) [/b] He did all the work. Now, knowing that, if you choose not to accept the gift, that is your choice. You sent yourself to hell, and I'm sure God mourns for every soul that chooses hell.

Yes, "the church" has screwed up. Several times. But "the church" is made up of fallible people, and people screw up. Don't disbelieve what God has said because of the mistakes of fallible mankind.

Most reputible bibles try to use the oldest manuscripts available in their writings. The NIV was translated not from the KJV, or the Vulgate, but from the oldest manuscripts available, including the Dead Sea scrolls.[/quote]

You must die next to a clock tower shadow, and die with each arm falling on the spot which corresponds with the time of your death.

[STRAYCAT]

I believe in my own way and thats it. I don't believe in the assholes that want you to come to their house and dump YOUR hard erned money so they live tax free and act above you.

[Jason]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='310532' date='Aug 6 2006, 09:13 PM']A just and holy god doesn't allow satan or hell to exist. An evil and unholy god might.
I'm pretty sure there are some very old writings that praise all sorts of gods. Many of them believing that human sacrifice is the way to appease them. Antiquity of writings has no bearing on their validity.[/quote]

Free will. If evil did not exist, if man could not choose, then that wouldn't really be love, it would be slavery.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='310560' date='Aug 6 2006, 07:59 PM']You must die next to a clock tower shadow, and die with each arm falling on the spot which corresponds with the time of your death.[/quote]

That was a good one, CP1, er, IKOTA.
Curious:
If Islam and Christianity both accept Christ as messiah (do they?), what then are the major fundamental differences between the two religions, all things being equal such as both religions are supposed to be religions of peace and brotherly love, etc. Is it simply the absence of Mohammed in the Bible (I'm assuming the Bible was already written before the time of The Prophet?), or are there other MAJOR differences that really set the two apart?

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Jason' post='310575' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:19 PM']Free will. If evil did not exist, if man could not choose, then that wouldn't really be love, it would be slavery.[/quote]

If we have free will, god can't be omnipotent and omniscient, which means he's not really god.

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='310557' date='Aug 6 2006, 09:54 PM']Backer, I am curious to know what you believe happens to people who are "evil and unholy"? What do you think happens to murders, unjust leaders and the like after they die? Again, I have not talked with Atheists at length about this so I am curious.
What about innocent people who are killed, taken from their loved ones. Do their killers stand in front of God and he says, well you did kill people but you go to heavan anyways? Where is the justice in that?[/quote]


I have no idea what happens when we die. Christians believe that a murdering rapist who accepts Jesus on his death bed goes to heaven, while a wonderful person who doesn't believe, goes to hell.

I ain't buyin' that.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='310604' date='Aug 6 2006, 09:32 PM']I have no idea what happens when we die. Christians believe that a murdering rapist who accepts Jesus on his death bed goes to heaven, while a wonderful person who doesn't believe, goes to hell.

I ain't buyin' that.[/quote]
What's that saying about "I'd rather die believing in a God only to find out I was right rather than Not believing and finding out i was wrong?"
I know it sounds more like hedging your bets rather than true faith, because it is, but....just sayin'.
In other words, what does anyone really have to lose by believing?

[Khatmandude]

The major difference is that Islam claims that there is only 1 God, no trinity and that Muhammad was a messenger of God. His final messenger. All other messengers are mentioned in the Quran and confirmed that they are indeed Prophets.

As for Jesus, Islam states that he was not crucified, instead he was taken up into the heavans and God placed someone in his likeness in his place. Jesus will return close to the Day of Judgement and lead the righteous over the wicked led by Dajjal (Anti-Christ). He will restore peace and justice on the Earth.

Very general

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='310606' date='Aug 6 2006, 11:37 PM']What's that saying about "I'd rather die believing in a God only to find out I was right rather than Not believing and finding out i was wrong?"
I know it sounds more like hedging your bets rather than true faith, because it is, but....just sayin'.
In other words, what does anyone really have to lose by believing?[/quote]


What if you picked the wrong religion? There are lots of them out there. Each one as nonsensical as the next.

If god is just, he doesn't care which one I do or don't believe, just what kind of person I am.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='310604' date='Aug 7 2006, 01:02 AM']I have no idea what happens when we die. Christians believe that a murdering rapist who accepts Jesus on his death bed goes to heaven, while a wonderful person who doesn't believe, goes to hell.

I ain't buyin' that.[/quote]

I ain't buyin' that either.

I believe a person can become spiritually rehabilitated, but it has to be sincere and between God and that person. How do I as a human know that a person's heart cannot change? I don't, that is between him and God but on his deathbed is a little late in my book also (no pun intended--my personal beliefs)

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='310614' date='Aug 6 2006, 09:49 PM']What if you picked the wrong religion? There are lots of them out there. Each one as nonsensical as the next.

If god is just, he doesn't care which one I do or don't believe, just what kind of person I am.[/quote]
I totally see what you are saying. The funny thing is (I was raised Catholic) not too long ago my Dad (the Italian Catholic) wondered aloud about my sons lack of baptism. When I basically said "Dad, what caring God would care if an innocent child that died before their time (if there is such a thing) wasn't baptised?"
His reply was that it "couldn't hurt", meaning better safe than sorry, which is one of the things I'm most disillusioned about when it comes to the Catholic faith, at least that portion of it that caters to upper-class white families, whom completely disregard the biblical teachings in their day to day until that hour on Sunday, then they are all solemn and respectful.
Why not all the time? Why not even a little more than just Sunday?
I recall when my Dad used to elbow my brother and I in the pew when we weren't singing the hymns in church (we were teenagers....what did he expect?), yet he would routinely fall asleep during the Homily, which is the most important part of the mass as it is an interpretation of the New Testament, the words of Jesus, the Gospel.
I stopped going as soon as my parents didn't make me anymore as the hypocrisy of it all stank.
I even tripped acid in church once as a teenager....nice stainglassed windows they had...