On Torture

[Lawman]

[quote]Coy Bacon,
Torture is not an efficient tool for extracting information, but torture is useful. Torture is useful for terrorizing people into submission and for extracting politically useful confesions, false or otherwise.[/quote]

[b]As was mentioned in previous threads, waterboarding (banned)of KSM (not conducted by us, but another foreign entity) extracted information that prevented attacks. Of course, you may choose to believe this or not and in your case I believe you will choose the later. Additionally, if these attacks were sucessful and it was discovered that we had the means to extract this information from KSM, but didn't, you and the MSM would have a "Field-day".[/b]

[quote]There's nothing to suspect on your part - it's pretty obvious that the general population has only various accounts and reports to go by, and has to sift through a hail storm of partisan flack to try to figure out what's going on. We have to decide whom we find most credible in that process. Self-serving testimony, such as yours is always suspect. Your vested interest in the image of the US military is as obvious as the fact that We the People are in the position to only evaluate the information we get second hand.[/quote]

[b]Good post and I comprehend your contention.[/b]

[quote]When a person attempts to use authority pressure via some kind of supposed expertise, the listener needs to ask two questions - is this person truly an authority in the field being addressed and if so, do they have a reason to lie about it? On the first count, a military person with this or that clearance may indeed be privy to information that would definitively settle this matter, but then again they may not, and may only be exposed to a more sophisticated form of propaganda to keep them operating as an asset in the psychological warfare being waged against the publics rising in opposition to the eggregious policy being pursued. On the second count, a military person with this or that clearance certainly has potential motive to lie about what they know - either about the extent and quality of knowledge that their clearance actually affords them or about the actual nature of the knowledge that they have.

Partison advocacy merely deepens suspicion in this case. Your clearance merely means that your organization trusts you more than other people to cover its ass. It actually works against your credibility in this case.[/quote]

You will believe what you want to believe and I can not change that. I only intend to inform with waht's available and permitted.

I am in a unique situation, my work puts me in the juxtaposition of Public Affairs and Intel. I am more involved in the Intel side of the house, however at times PA issues arise. This is what I was efering too when I posted in response to bengarick with a"if you only knew"

To better explain my position, I would like to go back to the First Gulf war. Remember in the early part of the war, the MSM were reporting that the missle strikes [u]may not[/u] or [u]actually didn't hit [/u] there targets and it was hard to determine Bomb Damage Assessment (BDA) due to a low ceiling (cloud coverage.

[b]Note: the missle in question were the Tomohawk Cruise Missles.[/b]

Well, I was looking right at the images when they (MSM) were opining and going, uh yeah, we hit our targets.
Actually we blew the shit out of them. I have held them in contempt ever since.

Believe it or not, my agenda is not to bolster up what Bush has done, but rather to hold the MSM accountable for what they say. Some of it is not so much as mis-information as is promoting their opinion.
Give me the information and I will decide. opps, i forgot my info is better.

As for the Democrats's agenda which is to grab power back anyway they can, which includes "Damn the Country, Get Bush"

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358398' date='Oct 4 2006, 11:05 AM']I am suggesting that you put aside your political agenda and be honest. If you have read, Tortured for Christ, stories of the Knights Templar when they were tortured, Spanish Inquisitation, Salem Witches and others etc.. Then how can you equate "sleep depravation" and "prolong standing" with these other practices.[/quote]

You seem to think that my political agenda and my outlook on how to be human are two different dynamics. Be assured they are not. Oh, and don't be disingenuous. That may work for some folks--it doesn't for me. What we do is not that benign and you know it. I know it, too.

[quote]see the Buckingham Palace Guards.[/quote]

I have, from a range of about 5 feet.

[quote]Homer, you of all people being prior Navy know what I am talking about. You "Stood the Watch", you endured sleep depravation and prolonged standing.[/quote]

Chief, you presume that I know little about the intelligence world. That would be a miscalculation. So, your equation is patently false, and furthermore, both you and I know that it is false.

[quote]We are having this Homer do to the mis-information promulgated by the MSM, which the average American swallows whole every time. The MSM opines on practically everything withan agenda to fuel their product and without concern for responsibility and accountability.[/quote]

You mean like Fox putting up Foley's picture and citing him as a "D" instead of as a "R"? That's a two way street and doesn't go to the core of the matter.

Here is the crux: Our weak-ass Congress just wrote an almost blank check for a walking, talking solopcist otherwise known as our President. Huge fucking mistake. Just wait...and it won't be long.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358416' date='Oct 4 2006, 11:57 AM']Well, I was looking right at the images when they (MSM) were opining and going, uh yeah, we hit our targets.
Actually we blew the shit out of them. I have held them in contempt ever since.[/quote]

Interesting. A close friend of mine worked BDA during Gulf I; he was a major or a light bird at the time. I visited him at Huachuca. Question: are you more mad at the MSM or at the results we needlessly (and deceptively) created on the Highway of Death?

[Homer_Rice]

Via Counterpunch:

[quote]Outrage as Misdirection
The Real Scandal Isn't Foley

By DAVE LINDORFF

It's a sad commentary on the state of American democracy, on the instincts of the American citizenry, and on the standards and judgment of the American newsmedia that the unsavory advances of a pathetic Forida congressman can have the nation in high dudgeon, while the ramming through of a patently illegal piece of legislation undermining a crucial 13th century civil liberty (habeas corpus), and the Fourth and Eighth Amendments of the constitution, and the secret planning for an illegal and catastrophic attack on Iran, both merit almost no complaint or mention.

Far be it from me to complain if Rep. Mark Foley's sexual obsession with teenage boys ends up sinking dumbass hopes for hanging onto the House and Senate. But how sad that it would be if it is this, and the coverup of his crimes by the dumbass leadership, that undoes the Bush administration, when its real crimes are of such grandeur and seriousness?

How are we to compare seeking to screw a 16-year old with totally screwing the Constitution? How are we to compare secret email solicitations with a secret plot to attack a nation of 62 million that poses no immediate threat to the U.S.?

How are we to compare the dumbass Party's cover-up of a member's efforts to corrupt young pages with the same party's conspiracy to cover up the Bush administration's ineptness and possible foreknowledge of the 9-11 attacks, and of the campaign of lies and misinformation it used to drum up hysteria for an illegal and totally unwarranted invasion of Iraq?

How are we to compare the media feeding frenzy over the Foley scandal with the profound silence about Bush's Iran invasion planning, and with the deliberate brownout about information regarding a growing popular movement to impeach the president for his crimes?

And finally, how to we to compare the public revulsion over Foley's indiscretions with the widespread acceptance or, or even support for abuse of American captives in the War in Afghanistan, the Iraq War, and the so-called "War" on Terror, which has included rape, sodomy, sexual humiliation and torture of all kinds, and murder--especially when it is known that the vast majority of those captives were either guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of simply being honest fighters for their respective countries, deserving of decent treatment under the Geneva Convention, and of a fair hearing into the propriety of their detention?

What kind of nation have we become?

At least the Foley saga makes it clear why the farcical impeachment of Bill Clinton for his extramarital escapade moved forward through the House to a Senate trial, while George Bush, whose crimes far exceed those of any president before him, including Richard Nixon, and place the whole American experiment in jeopardy, has not even faced censure, much less a bill of impeachment.

Democratic Congressional leaders Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid should be ashamed of themselves for leaping so boldly to the attack over Foley's crime and the dumbass leadership's cover-up, while continuing to assert that there will be no effort to impeach the president for his own crimes even if they manage, with Foley's assistance, to wrest control of the House November 8.

The American media should be ashamed of themselves for wallowing in swill, when there is a cancer in the White House that is attacking the very foundations of the nation.

The American public should be ashamed for its sheer inanity and inattention to the responsibilities of citizenship.[/quote]

[Khatmandude]

Excellent Post Homer.

What can be done though with people not giving a damn and actually rationalizing what is going on?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='358446' date='Oct 4 2006, 01:03 PM']Excellent Post Homer.

What can be done though with people not giving a damn and actually rationalizing what is going on?[/quote]

Continue to try to improve oneself; be as good as one can; don't back down in the face of the mob or the elite. Be yourself.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358416' date='Oct 4 2006, 11:57 AM']Believe it or not, my agenda is not to bolster up what Bush has done, but rather to hold the MSM accountable for what they say. Some of it is not so much as mis-information as is promoting their opinion.
Give me the information and I will decide. opps, i forgot my info is better. [/quote]

[url="http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/1345"]Yes, please do hold the MSM accountable, including its radical transformation in recent years.[/url]

[Guest Coy Bacon]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358416' date='Oct 4 2006, 11:57 AM'][b]As was mentioned in previous threads, waterboarding (banned)of KSM (not conducted by us, but another foreign entity) extracted information that prevented attacks. Of course, you may choose to believe this or not and in your case I believe you will choose the later. Additionally, if these attacks were sucessful and it was discovered that we had the means to extract this information from KSM, but didn't, you and the MSM would have a "Field-day".[/b]



[b]Good post and I comprehend your contention.[/b]
You will believe what you want to believe and I can not change that. I only intend to inform with waht's available and permitted.

I am in a unique situation, my work puts me in the juxtaposition of Public Affairs and Intel. I am more involved in the Intel side of the house, however at times PA issues arise. This is what I was efering too when I posted in response to bengarick with a"if you only knew"

To better explain my position, I would like to go back to the First Gulf war. Remember in the early part of the war, the MSM were reporting that the missle strikes [u]may not[/u] or [u]actually didn't hit [/u] there targets and it was hard to determine Bomb Damage Assessment (BDA) due to a low ceiling (cloud coverage.

[b]Note: the missle in question were the Tomohawk Cruise Missles.[/b]

Well, I was looking right at the images when they (MSM) were opining and going, uh yeah, we hit our targets.
Actually we blew the shit out of them. I have held them in contempt ever since.

Believe it or not, my agenda is not to bolster up what Bush has done, but rather to hold the MSM accountable for what they say. Some of it is not so much as mis-information as is promoting their opinion.
Give me the information and I will decide. opps, i forgot my info is better.

As for the Democrats's agenda which is to grab power back anyway they can, which includes "Damn the Country, Get Bush" [/quote]

By no means am I here to defend the mainstream media in any aspect.

Your above post is informative, confirming that, barring new evidence to the contrary, the rational way for me to view your posts is that they are exercises in environmental control in an asymmetrical PR/Intelligence effort - perhaps an amateur side-bar to your professional capacity, but asymmetrical PR and basically a minor psy-op. The aim is of course not to defend Bush per se - he is as much a candidate for patsy as anyone, but to advocate a partisan worldview more general than the narrow focus of the regime itself.

The Democrats obviously don't give a damn about the country; on this we agree. But, to characterize their agenda as one of "getting" Bush either shows your access to intelligence to be utterly useless for domestic political analysis or you to be entirely disingenuous. The Democrats in no way represent sincere opposition to Bush and have been nothing but abject "jobbers" for the administration. The Democrats that are not in actual collusion with the controlling elements of the dumbass Party are much more interested in preserving the system that conveys perks and sinecures upon them than they are in grabbing power. They may be allowed to get back in position for a spell, but true power is not an option for the Democratic Party especially. They are a beard for the center-right flank of the establishment and they are rewarded for keeping the little people that admit to themselves that they're little people running around in circles thinking that they're doing something.

You have to at least be aware that the behavior demonstrated by the Democrats does not represent true opposition to the regime, nor is it remotely designed to place the pursuit of power over other, far more conservative (in system terms) objectives. You have given me no reason to believe that you are ignorant enough to truly buy into the idea that the Democrats are anything more than a cut-out. So your statement regarding the Democrats only further confirms the idea that you're merely running game.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='358290' date='Oct 3 2006, 10:26 PM']Torture is not an efficient tool for extracting information, but torture is useful. Torture is useful for terrorizing people into submission and for extracting politically useful confesions, false or otherwise.

There's nothing to suspect on your part - it's pretty obvious that the general population has only various accounts and reports to go by, and has to sift through a hail storm of partisan flack to try to figure out what's going on. We have to decide whom we find most credible in that process. Self-serving testimony, such as yours is always suspect. Your vested interest in the image of the US military is as obvious as the fact that We the People are in the position to only evaluate the information we get second hand.

When a person attempts to use authority pressure via some kind of supposed expertise, the listener needs to ask two questions - is this person truly an authority in the field being addressed and if so, do they have a reason to lie about it? On the first count, a military person with this or that clearance may indeed be privy to information that would definitively settle this matter, but then again they may not, and may only be exposed to a more sophisticated form of propaganda to keep them operating as an asset in the psychological warfare being waged against the publics rising in opposition to the eggregious policy being pursued. On the second count, a military person with this or that clearance certainly has potential motive to lie about what they know - either about the extent and quality of knowledge that their clearance actually affords them or about the actual nature of the knowledge that they have.

Partison advocacy merely deepens suspicion in this case. Your clearance merely means that your organization trusts you more than other people to cover its ass. It actually works against your credibility in this case.[/quote]
You write paragraphs when you could just come out and say "despite your logical reasoning and your supposed military clearance, I don't believe you, because the government you serve is evil".

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='358431' date='Oct 4 2006, 10:28 AM']Via Counterpunch:[/quote]
Garbage. It addresses no points, only slings accusations at the "party it doesn't like" because gay-ass Foley has opened the door for them to do so.
I hate political parties. "My guy is hard on crime, the other guy is soft on baby killing", etc, etc, et al.
We need federally funded opposition parties like yesterday. A Libertarian candidate would be a fresh start.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='358711' date='Oct 4 2006, 08:56 PM']By no means am I here to defend the mainstream media in any aspect.

Your above post is informative, confirming that, barring new evidence to the contrary, the rational way for me to view your posts is that they are exercises in environmental control in an asymmetrical PR/Intelligence effort - perhaps an amateur side-bar to your professional capacity, but asymmetrical PR and basically a minor psy-op. The aim is of course not to defend Bush per se - he is as much a candidate for patsy as anyone, but to advocate a partisan worldview more general than the narrow focus of the regime itself.

The Democrats obviously don't give a damn about the country; on this we agree. But, to characterize their agenda as one of "getting" Bush either shows your access to intelligence to be utterly useless for domestic political analysis or you to be entirely disingenuous. The Democrats in no way represent sincere opposition to Bush and have been nothing but abject "jobbers" for the administration. The Democrats that are not in actual collusion with the controlling elements of the dumbass Party are much more interested in preserving the system that conveys perks and sinecures upon them than they are in grabbing power. They may be allowed to get back in position for a spell, but true power is not an option for the Democratic Party especially. They are a beard for the center-right flank of the establishment and they are rewarded for keeping the little people that admit to themselves that they're little people running around in circles thinking that they're doing something.

You have to at least be aware that the behavior demonstrated by the Democrats does not represent true opposition to the regime, nor is it remotely designed to place the pursuit of power over other, far more conservative (in system terms) objectives. You have given me no reason to believe that you are ignorant enough to truly buy into the idea that the Democrats are anything more than a cut-out. So your statement regarding the Democrats only further confirms the idea that you're merely running game.[/quote]
Man, you sure are a bleak-outlook having motherfucker. As if any of these politics defy what has been done so often before and will continue to be. We as a people haven't been totally sold out yet, although nuclear weapons have only been in play for less than a century.

[Lawman]

For those that wish to do their own research:

[url="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TERROR_SUPPORT?SITE=OHCIN&SECTION=AMERICAS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-10-02-22-07-51"]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_...-10-02-22-07-51[/url]

Once the site has loaded, (Cincinnati Enquirer, Oct 2nd)
got to the middle of the page, to the right, titled Documents.

All documents are in Adobe Acrobat 7.0

First review, Bigraphies "High Value" Detainees.

Summary:[i]Basically a snapshot of who some of these guys are.[/i]

Next, Summary of "High Value" Detainee program.

Summary: [i]from the Office OF The Director Of National Intelligence[/i]

3rd) National Strategy for Combating Terrorism

Summary: [i]Very interesting read for our Muslim friends[/i]

4th) Agreement on the Geneva Convention

Summary: Section 8 Implementation of Treaty Agreements, Common Article 3 Violations, (1) Prohibited Conduct : Torture, Cruel and Inhumane Treatment, Performing Biological Experiments, Murder, Mutilation or maiming, Intentionally causing bodily harm, Rape, Sexual Assault or Abuse, Taking Hostages

5) Agreement on Classified material Summary: [i]Here you will find the issue's pertaining to bringing Detainee's to trial.[/i]

Very informative material for everyone.

[Lawman]

[quote]And finally, how to we to compare the public revulsion over Foley's indiscretions with the widespread acceptance or, or even support for abuse of American captives in the War in Afghanistan, the Iraq War, and the so-called "War" on Terror, [u]which has included rape, sodomy, sexual humiliation and torture of all kinds, and murder--especially when it is known that the vast majority of those captives were either guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of simply being honest fighters for their respective countries, deserving of decent treatment under the Geneva Convention, and of a fair hearing into the propriety of their detention?[/[/u]quote]

This reeks of Chomskism.

Again, where has the author identified those individuals responsible for such acts has found themselves at the end of a court-martial hearing with a subsequent verdict of time spent in Leavenworth, NOWHERE!!!

[Lawman]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='358729' date='Oct 4 2006, 11:10 PM']Garbage. It addresses no points, only slings accusations at the "party it doesn't like" because gay-ass Foley has opened the door for them to do so.
I hate political parties. "My guy is hard on crime, the other guy is soft on baby killing", etc, etc, et al.
We need federally funded opposition parties like yesterday. [b] A Libertarian candidate would be a fresh start.[/b][/quote]

I'm liking this idea

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358949' date='Oct 5 2006, 07:55 AM']

I'm liking this idea[/quote]
Me too. It's become painfully clear to me that partisan politics is ruining our government. Listen to any campaign ad these days. It's all a bunch of panty waiste sniping. It's always about attacking the other guy instead of focusing on what you intend to do to initiate change.
A real leader (or one whom aspires to be) would simply ignore what his/her opponents campaign team slings at them, and focus on their own agenda.

[Lawman]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='358957' date='Oct 5 2006, 10:04 AM']Me too. It's become painfully clear to me that partisan politics is ruining our government. Listen to any campaign ad these days. It's all a bunch of panty waiste sniping. It's always about attacking the other guy instead of focusing on what you intend to do to initiate change.
A real leader (or one whom aspires to be) would simply ignore what his/her opponents campaign team slings at them, and focus on their own agenda.[/quote]

This is what got me into the idea of voting for Perot in 92'; before things got creepy.

Admiral (Ret) Stockdale at the Vice Presidential debates:

"Who am I and why am I here" I know what he meant, but still

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='358957' date='Oct 5 2006, 10:04 AM']Me too. It's become painfully clear to me that partisan politics is ruining our government. Listen to any campaign ad these days. It's all a bunch of panty waiste sniping. It's always about attacking the other guy instead of focusing on what you intend to do to initiate change.
A real leader (or one whom aspires to be) would simply ignore what his/her opponents campaign team slings at them, and focus on their own agenda.[/quote]

<low, creepy voice>

"Mike dewine doesn't care about our soldiers... he voted against body armor and actually stole a whole battalians armor for no reason at all... Mike Dewine wants your son to die"

yeah, these ads are getting out of hand....

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358964' date='Oct 5 2006, 08:13 AM']This is what got me into the idea of voting for Perot in 92'; before things got creepy.

Admiral (Ret) Stockdale at the Vice Presidential debates:

"Who am I and why am I here" I know what he meant, but still [/quote]
That Saturday Night Live skit with Dana Carvey as Perot and Phil Hartmann as Stockdale is a classic.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='358965' date='Oct 5 2006, 08:17 AM']<low, creepy voice>

"Mike dewine doesn't care about our soldiers... he voted against body armor and actually stole a whole battalians armor for no reason at all... Mike Dewine wants your son to die"

yeah, these ads are getting out of hand....[/quote]
I've heard that one too. I mean, how much lower can these things go?
"DeWine fucked a goat", "DeWine bathes in baby's blood", etc, etc....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='358965' date='Oct 5 2006, 10:17 AM']<low, creepy voice>

"Mike dewine doesn't care about our soldiers... he voted against body armor and actually stole a whole battalians armor for no reason at all... Mike Dewine wants your son to die"

yeah, these ads are getting out of hand....[/quote]



Yeah thats pretty bad, it was bad in our governers race as well with Tim Kayne (a democrat) getting attacked by Jerry Kilgore on things having to do with his faith, that were completely untrue. It bit him in the ass and rightfully so. Im sick of all that too.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='358921' date='Oct 5 2006, 09:08 AM']Very informative material for everyone.[/quote]

[url="http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/"]How about these autopsy reports?[/url]

Let me say this again. Torture is bad. We ought not to do it.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='359130' date='Oct 5 2006, 02:06 PM'][url="http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/"]How about these autopsy reports?[/url]

Let me say this again. Torture is bad. We ought not to do it.[/quote]

man, some of those are hard to read ...

but by my count (assuming all these finds are accurate) there have been 14 homicides in iraq and the rest were accidents, natural, or undetermined... i just don't see how this shows that torture is a justifiable means of interrogation...

what i do see though that scares me, is the amount of deaths from "brute force" which could support your hypothesis... every death that was called a homocide that i have read, is b/c of brute force (one i saw is classified though)...

considering the amount of soldiers in iraq and in prisons holding prisoners, along w/ the amount of prisoners we have taken, 14 homicides in 3 years is actually pretty low... does this prove that we are torturing our prisoners? i don't think so... there have been many more natural deaths than homicides...

[Lawman]

Philadelphia Inquirer
October 5, 2006

Guantanamo Is Not The Problem

By Claudia Rosett

To fly into the damp Caribbean heat of this U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is to enter a place of multifaceted myth, a zone that continues to inflame the imagination of the world. And yet, when it comes to witnesses, monitors and the media, there is probably no more heavily trafficked detention center on the planet.

Since the United States began bringing suspected Taliban and al-Qaeda operatives there more than four years ago, Guantanamo has hosted visits by more than 1,000 members of the media, from more than 500 news organizations - including Qatar's Al-Jazeera, Egyptian TV, and such Arabic-language newspapers as Al Sharq al Aswat and Al Hayat. More than 300 lawyers have descended, many offering pro bono services to the detainees.

Humanitarian groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have come to view the military commissions that review individual cases. Official emissaries have dropped by from Europe. Four times a year, delegates arrive from the International Committee of the Red Cross, spending a month each time to talk privately with the detainees, check their condition, and offer them a chance to contact their families.

Along with this, we have had the much-debated efforts of the White House, Congress and the U.S. courts to calibrate an approach that will glean information, avert the release of hard-core terrorists, yet treat the captives gently enough to satisfy not only basic standards of humanity, but an apparently endless queue of critics.

At the center of it all are about 460 detainees. Among that number are 14 recently arrived "high-value" terrorist all-stars, including Indonesia's Hambali, al-Qaeda mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and a Yemeni believed to be the missing 20th hijacker, Ramzi Binalshibh.

In the effort to welcome reporters, treat detainees with care, glean information, and avoid releasing terrorists to hatch fresh plots (at least 20 of about 300 released have returned to the fight), U.S. officials walk an almost impossible tightrope.

When I visited Guantanamo on a Pentagon-hosted press tour last week, I was told to show up at 5:30 a.m. for the plane ride to the Caribbean from Washington. I expected a rough flight on a military transport and a day of lean rations. But we were ushered onto a sleek jet with deep seats and served a breakfast of French toast, while officers answered our preliminary questions. At Guantanamo, we were welcomed by the base commander, Rear Adm. Harry Harris Jr., who took almost two hours to brief us and answer yet more questions over lunch before dispatching us on a guided tour of the detainee cells, recreational yards and medical facilities.

What we saw is a place so steeped in political correctness that it comes close to caricature. Make no mistake: The detainees occupy cells in a high-security facility. But almost every room has an arrow on the floor pointing to Mecca. Signs demanding silence stand ready for prayer time. Korans are cradled in surgical masks. Detainees are interrogated while sitting on sofas or cushioned reclining chairs.

They choose from a halal menu including such home-style treats as dates and baklava. Doctors, dentists and psychiatrists (offering confidential counseling) are on 24-hour call. Good behavior is rewarded with access to board games, books and communal areas, including more time in recreational yards - where we saw a group of detainees chatting around a table, [u]while one of their cohorts nearby, at leisurely speed in the afternoon heat, pedaled an exercise bike.[/u]

An officer tells me that earlier this year Guantanamo was buying bottled water that had an American flag on the label. Lest this upset the detainees, [u]base personnel were put to work stripping off the labels.[/u]

At the same time, there is a deadly game going on in this camp.

Security guards detach name strips from their uniforms when going near the detainees. Some of the guards, we are told, have been on the receiving end not only of direct attacks and threats from the inmates, but threats against their families. [b]Detainees have made weapons out of light bulbs, fan blades, the footpads of their Asian-style toilets, and the springs in their push-button sinks. [/b] Guards tell us that detainees use the lawyer-client privileges they enjoy as a clandestine communications network both inside and outside the camp. What exists in the inmate culture, Harris explains, is, in effect, "a fully tricked-out al-Qaeda operating cell."

The conundrum in running Gitmo is how to contain and learn from this scene without getting killed by the inmates on the one hand and [u]clobbered by the critics on the other[/u]. I asked Harris how he and his colleagues manage to navigate this maze and remain sane. He answers that this is their job: "We're the most transparent detention facility in the world."

As we head for the plane back to Washington, [b]it seems to me that if the critics of Guantanamo are not satisfied by now, they never will be[/b]. If the real aim of the criticisms still directed at this place is truth, justice and security for the Free World, we would be better served were some of the critics to turn their attentions to the countries that spawned this terrorist jihad - countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, countries with prisons whose names most of the world does not remember, and, in many cases, has never even heard.

[i]Claudia Rosett is journalist in residence with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies in Washington.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='359130' date='Oct 5 2006, 02:06 PM'][url="http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/"]How about these autopsy reports?[/url]

Let me say this again. Torture is bad. We ought not to do it.[/quote]

Take it , you did not read the links?

[Lawman]

[quote]CoyBacon
but to advocate a [color="#000099"]non-[/color]partisan worldview more general than the narrow focus of the regime itself.[/quote]

I have read the Manchester Document .


[url="http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf#search=%22Manchester%20documents%22"]http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf#...%20documents%22[/url]