Marvin's Press Conference

[Arkansas Bengal]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405376' date='Dec 11 2006, 05:35 PM']That's rahter uncalled for. Own's a cranky SOB sometimes, but he's got brains, and the balls to voice his opinion. Perhaps you could spend less time thinking of insults, and more time being a part of the discussion. You're a bright guy. I'm sure you have more to add.
As for Marvin: I'm not asking for him to open a playbook and explain what he's going to exploit. I expect him to at least give some normal non-answers... and the whole not throwing players under the bus thing is kinda moot. Chick asked Marvin if he thought the starting safeties this year might help protect against the deep routes against Indy that Ohalete and KK had trouble with last year. Marvin's response was that Chick was asking dumb, uninformed questions, and that it's sometimes the corners who are supposed to cover deep. Sounds a bit to me like he was calling out some corner play.[/quote]

Marvin was a dick today...and he is FREQUENTLY a dick during the press conferences with the local media. On the other hand, he is congenial, open, and friendly with the national media.

The local press conferences are quite frankly a total waste of time...all we ever hear is 'we've got to play better...'

The worst part is, the first time we have a bad season, I expect the local media will try to get revenge.

[Guest Bengals1181]

[quote name='Arkansas Bengal' post='405578' date='Dec 11 2006, 11:05 PM']Marvin was a dick today...and he is FREQUENTLY a dick during the press conferences with the local media. On the other hand, he is congenial, open, and friendly with the national media.

The local press conferences are quite frankly a total waste of time...all we ever hear is 'we've got to play better...'

The worst part is, the first time we have a bad season, I expect the local media will try to get revenge.[/quote]


Chick is really the only one he gives a hard time to anymore.

[Guest BengalsOwn]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='405587' date='Dec 11 2006, 11:25 PM']Chick is really the only one he gives a hard time to anymore.[/quote]

So basically he's the only local reporter with any balls.

Ripping on Chick Ludwig, just because Marvin Lewis is a dick to the guy when he asks a relevant question. Does that make sense?

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='405607' date='Dec 12 2006, 12:00 AM']So basically he's the only local reporter with any balls.

Ripping on Chick Ludwig, just because Marvin Lewis is a dick to the guy when he asks a relevant question. Does that make sense?[/quote]


Yeah, I don't really get it. I understand Chick is goofy, and lousy on video, but he's a good writer, and generally asks questions I'd like to know the answer to... Ah well.

[Guest BengalBacker]

I posted this on July 16th.

[quote]Lewis looks past character
By Chick Ludwig

For more than a decade, the Cincinnati Bengals were ridiculed throughout the NFL as laughable losers. They were everybody's favorite punch line, the league's longest-running joke.

There was Corey Dillon tripping over offensive linemen, Gus Frerotte throwing left-handed passes, Oliver Gibson jumping offside, Peter Warrick fielding punts inside the 5 and Akili Smith getting hit so hard the football embedded in his chest.

Cincinnati was the NFL's version of Siberia, a dark, dank place where quarterbacks went to die, first-round draft picks became busts and over-the-hill free agents came to roost, picking up paychecks and laughing all the way to the bank.

But times have changed and perceptions have shifted.

The losing stopped and the winning started with head coach Marvin Lewis' arrival in 2003. But the price has been steep. The club's image has been bludgeoned by the police blotter. And fans are sick and tired of it.

Sick of reading about Chris Henry's litany of four arrests and tired of hearing about A.J. Nicholson's and Frostee Rucker's off-the-field antics.

Rumors about Odell Thurman — who reportedly will be suspended the first four games of the season for violating the NFL's substance-abuse policy — began flying as soon as he was a no-show at the club's mandatory, full-squad minicamp June 15-17.

The last thing the club's followers needed was the welcoming of another guy "with a history" of too much baggage or "luggage" as some like to describe it.

But that's just what the fans received Thursday when the Bengals selected linebacker Ahmad Brooks in the NFL Supplemental Draft. Brooks was kicked off the University of Virginia's team in the spring for reportedly failing a drug test.

As Vince Lombardi once screamed from the Green Bay sidelines: "What the hell's going on out there?"

I'd like to take you back to the 2005 draft. The Sporting News slapped the Bengals with a C+ grade, saying they improved the defense with talented players. "But they get downgraded for ignoring character, a Bengals tradition."

Thurman had several brushes with the law at Georgia, and Henry fought with coaches and teammates at West Virginia.

Lewis said the team "looked very, very hard at character. We probably looked harder than most teams. Oh, there were a lot of other guys (drafted by other teams) who used drugs and other things. I think (TSN's label) is very unfair. Time will tell, won't it?"

It already has.

The new Bengals are the old Raiders, with Cincinnati serving as the wayward home for problem players. A few bad apples have spoiled the whole bunch.[/quote]


Marvin already didn't like Chick but this article was the back-breaker. I'm not saying if he was right or wrong to write the article, but he was stupid if he thought it wouldn't piss Marvin off. I just enjoy the exchanges.

[Guest ONYX]

I can't believe why some of you make such a big deal about these press conferences. I
don't blame Marvin one bit for not putting any effort in appeasing the local media. Lewis
knows how the business works, one day the media will praise you for ratings and the next
day, they will burn you at the stake for ratings.

Paul Brown once said, "When you win, say very little. When you lose, say even less".

As a fan, sure I'd like to know more info but if Marvin doesn't want to talk........
as long as they win on Sunday, I won't complain. When you really think about it,
what purposes does press conferences serve anyway?

The only signifigence they hold, is when a coach reveals who's playing and who's not.

The rest of it is garbage. When a team wins, the players and coaches always say the
same things and when a team loses, the players and coaches always say the same things.

Now if you want to hear a "chatty" coach who likes to hear himself talk, go vist the Cleveland
Browns official website and watch one of Romeo Crennel's press conferences.

The more Crennel speaks, the more I begin to feel that he has no clue what he's doing and
I'm sure Brown's fans and the media will soon start thinking that way also if they havn't already.

Marvin Lewis is no Romeo Crennel......and thank God for that.

[TheBZ]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='405174' date='Dec 11 2006, 03:21 PM']Why because Chick doesn't pamper Marvin, and ask him the most ridiculous politically correct questions all the time?[/quote]

I have to agree with the fellow who said that you are not that smart, OWN...And lump Mongo and Gonzo into the mix as well.

Everything that Marvin does as a coach is based on an idealogy of positive reinforcement for the players, a philosophy of studying and practice towards execution, and the belief that HE as the head coach is qualified and prepared to take the team where they need to go.

It's not that Chick is asking the 'tough' questions...It's that the questions are so thinly-veiled as seeds for a negatively-slanted take - whether it be on safety play, cushion, offensive play-calling, etc...that Marvin just can't bring himself to take part in that process.

It's one thing for the guy to march up to the podium and try to answer the questions that are put forward to him...But it is asking a whole lot for him to throw gasoline on the fires that Chick is trying to set. It goes against his whole coaching philosophy. (One that has been shown to work, I would add)

It just beggars the guy's intelligence to willingly take part in that shit.

[quote name='Gonzoid' post='405306' date='Dec 11 2006, 05:00 PM']Two words: Boo hoo.

Marvin Lewis is a coach in a professional sports league. If questions bother him, he's in the wrong job.[/quote]

The team's record, fan attendance, national media acceptance, and sales of Bengals paraphernalia says otherwise.

Besides...I really haven't heard any complaining out of Marvin.

If you're upset that he shows open contempt for some members of the media, or that he stiffens when guys are actively fishing for a negative angle...Then the 'Boo hoo' really ought to be directed your way.

Chick should concentrate on other methods of getting quotes for the kinds of stories that he wants to write, instead of trying to put words into the mouth of the HC.

BZ

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='405654' date='Dec 12 2006, 05:03 AM']I have to agree with the fellow who said that you are not that smart, OWN...And lump Mongo and Gonzo into the mix as well.

Everything that Marvin does as a coach is based on an idealogy of positive reinforcement for the players, a philosophy of studying and practice towards execution, and the belief that HE as the head coach is qualified and prepared to take the team where they need to go.

It's not that Chick is asking the 'tough' questions...It's that the questions are so thinly-veiled as seeds for a negatively-slanted take - whether it be on safety play, cushion, offensive play-calling, etc...that Marvin just can't bring himself to take part in that process.

It's one thing for the guy to march up to the podium and try to answer the questions that are put forward to him...But it is asking a whole lot for him to throw gasoline on the fires that Chick is trying to set. It goes against his whole coaching philosophy. (One that has been shown to work, I would add)

It just beggars the guy's intelligence to willingly take part in that shit.
The team's record, fan attendance, national media acceptance, and sales of Bengals paraphernalia says otherwise.

Besides...I really haven't heard any complaining out of Marvin.

If you're upset that he shows open contempt for some members of the media, or that he stiffens when guys are actively fishing for a negative angle...Then the 'Boo hoo' really ought to be directed your way.

Chick should concentrate on other methods of getting quotes for the kinds of stories that he wants to write, instead of trying to put words into the mouth of the HC.

BZ[/quote]

Damn......these Canadians are smart. The day they realize hockey sucks, they will be dangerous.


Anyway, excellent post BZ.

[Scoutforlife591]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='405607' date='Dec 12 2006, 12:00 AM']So basically he's the only local reporter with any balls.

Ripping on Chick Ludwig, just because Marvin Lewis is a dick to the guy when he asks a relevant question. Does that make sense?[/quote]

And he's the only reporter around here with a Hall of Fame vote. Connection?


Hells yes.

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='405654' date='Dec 12 2006, 05:03 AM']I have to agree with the fellow who said that you are not that smart, OWN...And lump Mongo and Gonzo into the mix as well.

Everything that Marvin does as a coach is based on an idealogy of positive reinforcement for the players, a philosophy of studying and practice towards execution, and the belief that HE as the head coach is qualified and prepared to take the team where they need to go.

It's not that Chick is asking the 'tough' questions...It's that the questions are so thinly-veiled as seeds for a negatively-slanted take - whether it be on safety play, cushion, offensive play-calling, etc...that Marvin just can't bring himself to take part in that process.

It's one thing for the guy to march up to the podium and try to answer the questions that are put forward to him...But it is asking a whole lot for him to throw gasoline on the fires that Chick is trying to set. It goes against his whole coaching philosophy. (One that has been shown to work, I would add)

It just beggars the guy's intelligence to willingly take part in that shit.
The team's record, fan attendance, national media acceptance, and sales of Bengals paraphernalia says otherwise.

Besides...I really haven't heard any complaining out of Marvin.

If you're upset that he shows open contempt for some members of the media, or that he stiffens when guys are actively fishing for a negative angle...Then the 'Boo hoo' really ought to be directed your way.

Chick should concentrate on other methods of getting quotes for the kinds of stories that he wants to write, instead of trying to put words into the mouth of the HC.

BZ[/quote]


I haven't called you names, so don't start in on me. And your post might mean more if Marvin always went with positive reinforcement. He hasn't. He's been critical of position groups in the past. Linebackers, and the secondary have been the target of press conference barbs on Marvin's behalf before.... And what is so evil about speculating a healthy set of safeties might help our defense play better against the Colts this year? What is so wrong with questioning those big 3rd down conversions? None of it deserves the responses Chick was getting. Marvin could easily have said "we're excited to have guys healthy, and to give them an opportunity to play at a high level."

[TheBZ]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405738' date='Dec 12 2006, 09:13 AM']I haven't called you names, so don't start in on me. And your post might mean more if Marvin always went with positive reinforcement. He hasn't. He's been critical of position groups in the past. Linebackers, and the secondary have been the target of press conference barbs on Marvin's behalf before.... And what is so evil about speculating a healthy set of safeties might help our defense play better against the Colts this year? What is so wrong with questioning those big 3rd down conversions? None of it deserves the responses Chick was getting. Marvin could easily have said "we're excited to have guys healthy, and to give them an opportunity to play at a high level."[/quote]

Hey...If you don't understand the guy's coaching MO by now, you never will.

But I could be wrong about the stupidity part...Maybe you just don't want to understand...Or maybe you feel a special kinship to Chick, or other reporters who ask silly questions...Who can know the mind of Mongoloido?

Whatever the reason, I simply cannot agree with your opinion on the matter.

BZ

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='405746' date='Dec 12 2006, 09:23 AM']Hey...If you don't understand the guy's coaching MO by now, you never will.

But I could be wrong about the stupidity part...Maybe you just don't want to understand...Or maybe you feel a special kinship to Chick, or other reporters who ask silly questions...Who can know the mind of Mongoloido?

Whatever the reason, I simply cannot agree with your opinion on the matter.

BZ[/quote]


I asked two questions you could have chosen to answer. Instead, you chose to avoid actually debating the topic at hand, and kept it personal. Thank you. Anytime you'd actually like to debate, please let me know. I'm not going to waste my time challenging the points of someone unwilling to defend them.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='405186' date='Dec 11 2006, 03:33 PM']A couple of times? Big deal. Go to a city like New York, or a team in Texas. They throw their coaches under the bus on a bi-weekly basis. Marvin has it so easy with the media here in Cincinnati.[/quote]

just because a larger city would be worse doesnt mean marvin should be stroking off chick under the media table. chick is a babbling creepy retard. and your a grumpy arguementative bastard. what a couple.

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='405775' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:18 AM']just because a larger city would be worse doesnt mean marvin should be stroking off chick under the media table. chick is a babbling creepy retard. and your a grumpy arguementative bastard. what a couple.[/quote]


And Marvin is lousy with the press.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405778' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:22 AM']And Marvin is lousy with the press.[/quote]


So then he makes a great head coach, Parcells, Knight, Edwards, Mora Sr. ... all worse than marvin.


Your making a bigger deal of this than it is.

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='405779' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:24 AM']So then he makes a great head coach, Parcells, Knight, Edwards, Mora Sr. ... all worse than marvin.
Your making a bigger deal of this than it is.[/quote]


I'd sure like to know what big deal I'm making of this. My assertion is that Marvin is needlessly nasty to Chick in this week's press conference, and that Chick asked questions we all wonder about. I don't understand how this makes me not smart, or making a big deal out of it.

[Guest Bengals1181]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405783' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:39 AM']I'd sure like to know what big deal I'm making of this. My assertion is that Marvin is needlessly nasty to Chick in this week's press conference, and that Chick asked questions we all wonder about. I don't understand how this makes me not smart, or making a big deal out of it.[/quote]


yes, I stay awake at night wondering if Dexter Jackson is better than Ohalete. I mean, can you say "Duh Chick?"

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='405808' date='Dec 12 2006, 11:24 AM']yes, I stay awake at night wondering if Dexter Jackson is better than Ohalete. I mean, can you say "Duh Chick?"[/quote]


Heh.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405783' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:39 AM']I'd sure like to know what big deal I'm making of this. My assertion is that Marvin is needlessly nasty to Chick in this week's press conference, and that Chick asked questions we all wonder about. I don't understand how this makes me not smart, or making a big deal out of it.[/quote]


I never said anything about your intellegence, frankly I disagree with my friend BZ as Ive seen you post some intellegent things before. Im just saying that Marvin handles the media much better than some of his counterparts and people should look at that before making criticism of him for it. Some are quick to criticize (own) but it isnt as if he is out on the poidum or stage what have you yelling at chick saying "you play to win the game" (which by the way is a favorite of mine). Even if it is in his job description to do this dog and pony show each week, its not in his job description to break down the plays for someone like chick (or even us) and explain why the saftey play on a whole isnt the problem or dline or linebackers what have you. Now when you say he has criticized units before your correct, but it may be entirely possible that when he has done that for that game they were the only problem, we dont know, and I dont want him doing his John Madden impression during the press confrenence, just so we can feel better. That not his job, his job is to win football games, I will feel better if he does that, a press conference explaining why we have or what the problems are doesnt make me feel better, winning does. And thats why I think you make too much of this.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405783' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:39 AM']I'd sure like to know what big deal I'm making of this. My assertion is that Marvin is needlessly nasty to Chick in this week's press conference, and that Chick asked questions we all wonder about. I don't understand how this makes me not smart, or making a big deal out of it.[/quote]

Mongo... I'm sure you're a helluva guy and an ardent Bengals supporter... but do you realize that you have consistently been asking about this specific topic for quite some time now?
I don't think that you are making a big deal out of the singular press conferences, but add them all together and it's something approaching an obsession. Let's face it, ML doesn't like Chick and the same is true in the other direction. Good questions or not, Chick Ludwig has burnt bridges with Marvin and I suspect that they won't be mended any time soon.

On that note, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and please feel free to ask this same question next week... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img]

As long as Marvin Lewis is addressing the clubs needs, both on & off the field, then I personally couldn't care less about how he treats the media... especially the media that is always looking to criticize.

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='405820' date='Dec 12 2006, 11:42 AM']Mongo... I'm sure you're a helluva guy and an ardent Bengals supporter... but do you realize that you have consistently been asking about this specific topic for quite some time now?[/quote]

It's nice to know my questions on this topic haven't made you doubt my level of Bengals support. I do indeed realize I've brought this up before. It irks me that people bash Chick because he's odd looking, has a goofy voice, and isn't the most normal person. It also mildly annoys me people seem to believe Marvin is always in the right, and anyone who questions him is a fool.

[quote]I don't think that you are making a big deal out of the singular press conferences, but add them all together and it's something approaching an obsession. Let's face it, ML doesn't like Chick and the same is true in the other direction. Good questions or not, Chick Ludwig has burnt bridges with Marvin and I suspect that they won't be mended any time soon.[/quote]

I also believe bridges have been burnt. I'm not certain of the just nature of those burned bridges, and I certainly don't believe Chick deserves all the blame, all the time, for every frayed nerve Marvin shows. I also take the same position when people pile on Hobson, Lapham, and Lance. Too many here have annointed Marvin God, and it's not called for. Marvin is a Hell of a coach, and, from what I've been told, an amazing motivational speaker. However, dealing with the media is not his forte, and I think he would admit that. He's hostile, he needlessly obfuscates, and tells some silly lies.

[quote]On that note, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and please feel free to ask this same question next week... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img][/quote]

Since I didn't get any answers this week, I probably will. It's nice to know I'm free to do so. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

[quote]As long as Marvin Lewis is addressing the clubs needs, both on & off the field, then I personally couldn't care less about how he treats the media... especially the media that is always looking to criticize.[/quote]


And as long as Marvin is a weenie when he doesn't need to be, and people blame Chick (or Lap, or Hobson, or Lance) for everything that isn't golden in Marvin's media persona, I'll continue to challenge.

[TheBZ]

[quote name='mongoloido' post='405868' date='Dec 12 2006, 01:08 PM']It also mildly annoys me people seem to believe Marvin is always in the right, and anyone who questions him is a fool.

I also believe bridges have been burnt. I'm not certain of the just nature of those burned bridges, and I certainly don't believe Chick deserves all the blame, all the time, for every frayed nerve Marvin shows. I also take the same position when people pile on Hobson, Lapham, and Lance. Too many here have annointed Marvin God, and it's not called for. Marvin is a Hell of a coach, and, from what I've been told, an amazing motivational speaker. However, dealing with the media is not his forte, and I think he would admit that. He's hostile, he needlessly obfuscates, and tells some silly lies.

Since I didn't get any answers this week, I probably will. It's nice to know I'm free to do so. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

And as long as Marvin is a weenie when he doesn't need to be, and people blame Chick (or Lap, or Hobson, or Lance) for everything that isn't golden in Marvin's media persona, I'll continue to challenge.[/quote]

Firstly, it was poor form for me to call anyone stupid. I latched onto a quote where someone else did it, and ran with the theme...That has never been my opinion of you, regardless of this topic; although your stance is frustrating to me because it is a dead end with no resolution.

Judging from this board's demographics, there are apparently only a small minority of fans who are demanding golden behaviour from Marvin in his relationship with the media.

No one here is denying that he shows a blatant disdain for Chick, or even that he gets terse with reporters over repetitive or quote-sniffing questions.

Since that is the case, it is really tough for people to give you whatever answers you're looking for.

You apparently are demanding a coach who will befriend reporters and go up there with a dry-erase board to point out where his CB screwed up, or where the WR broke off his route.

You should know by now that it simply isn't going to happen...And it doesn't have to happen for the majority of fans to be happy with the job that Marvin does as a coach.

I would even have to assume, since Marvin has kept this up for a few weeks now with Chick that the power-that-be haven't seen fit to correct the behaviour.

So instead of bitching away to a bunch of fans over your distaste for Marvin's media savvy, why don't you write a letter to the front office explaining your dissatisfaction?

Who knows...Maybe someone there will agree with you, and you can get this (apparently) egregious behaviour changed.

Or...You can just go off about it next week and achieve some sort of catharsis with the other three people that consider it an issue.

Either way, I promise to not call you stupid next time.



BZ

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='406289' date='Dec 12 2006, 10:58 PM']Firstly, it was poor form for me to call anyone stupid. I latched onto a quote where someone else did it, and ran with the theme...That has never been my opinion of you, regardless of this topic; although your stance is frustrating to me because it is a dead end with no resolution.[/quote]

thank you

[quote]Judging from this board's demographics, there are apparently only a small minority of fans who are demanding golden behaviour from Marvin in his relationship with the media.

No one here is denying that he shows a blatant disdain for Chick, or even that he gets terse with reporters over repetitive or quote-sniffing questions.

Since that is the case, it is really tough for people to give you whatever answers you're looking for.[/quote]

I'm still just looking for you to tell me why Chick's questions are thinly veiled seeds of negatively slanted something or other. I don't get it. What's wrong with asking a question about having different safeties for this year's Colts game? Why is it damnable to speculate on having Madieu and Dexter instead of KK (a backup) and Ohalete (someone dumped from the team as quickly as possible)? And I don't get why it's so evil to ask about long 3rd downs getting converted, and if our guys are maybe playing off too much. I don't see the evil you do, and want to understand.

[quote]You apparently are demanding a coach who will befriend reporters and go up there with a dry-erase board to point out where his CB screwed up, or where the WR broke off his route.

You should know by now that it simply isn't going to happen...And it doesn't have to happen for the majority of fans to be happy with the job that Marvin does as a coach.[/quote]

I don't expect that at all. I just expect Marvin not to be a jerk to people doing their job, especially when I don't see them asking terrible questions. Talk around the question, or say it's execution, or we play with who we've got, or a thousand other cliches.

[quote]I would even have to assume, since Marvin has kept this up for a few weeks now with Chick that the power-that-be haven't seen fit to correct the behaviour.

So instead of bitching away to a bunch of fans over your distaste for Marvin's media savvy, why don't you write a letter to the front office explaining your dissatisfaction?[/quote]

...The post that started it all:

[quote][b]And people here love to jump on Chick's ass, but I don't hear him asking bad questions. I myself wonder if our safeties will help improve our difference over last year. I feel certain DJax is better than Ohalete. I wonder about the big 3rd down conversions, and cushions, and all the topics Chick brought up.[/b][/quote]

I'm not calling for Marvin's head. I'm saying I don't get why people hate Chick. You seem to think his questions were insidious, yet I just can't get an answer as to why. You seem more eager to attack me than to answer questions.


[quote]Who knows...Maybe someone there will agree with you, and you can get this (apparently) egregious behaviour changed.

Or...You can just go off about it next week and achieve some sort of catharsis with the other three people that consider it an issue.

Either way, I promise to not call you stupid next time.



BZ[/quote]

So much for that early part about how you shouldn't have called people stupid...

[-GoBengals-]

ladies.. ladies..

[Guest mongoloido]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='406326' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:08 AM']ladies.. ladies..[/quote]


I know. It's just exasperating to get responses to everything but the questions you ask, and for those responses to have more venom than they should.