Bean Counter Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='695330' date='Sep 4 2008, 11:48 AM']Where did I say anything about a bailout? I'm not sure you have a grasp at what is going on.[/quote] I did not say you were talking about any kind of bailout. I was giving the reasons for the sub prime mortgage "crisis" and the airline problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Bean Counter' post='695356' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:44 PM']I did not say you were talking about any kind of bailout. I was giving the reasons for the sub prime mortgage "crisis" and the airline problems.[/quote] I disagree on both accounts. I think it's been layed out for the folks who want to presue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Counter Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='695358' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:46 PM']I disagree on both accounts. I think it's been layed out for the folks who want to presue it.[/quote] We will have to remain in disagreement then. You are a pretty smart guy it seems and you made some great points. I just happen to disagree with the deregulation theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Bean Counter' post='695361' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:51 PM']We will have to remain in disagreement then. You are a pretty smart guy it seems and you made some great points. I just happen to disagree with the deregulation theory.[/quote] Thats fine, and thanks for the complament, but I do hope folks presue this it is important with reguard to our ecnomic future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Counter Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='695362' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:53 PM']Thats fine, and thanks for the complament, but I do hope folks presue this it is important with reguard to our ecnomic future.[/quote] I meant it. No matter what side you believe it would be great if more people became informed and talked about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Bean Counter' post='695374' date='Sep 4 2008, 01:19 PM']I meant it. No matter what side you believe it would be great if more people became informed and talked about it.[/quote] agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Jamie's on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='695413' date='Sep 4 2008, 03:12 PM']Jamie's on the right track.[/quote] To paraphrase the old Terry Tate Office Linebacker Commericals - "The (Mc)Pain train is comming Whoo Whooo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrotos Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 [quote name='Bean Counter' post='695220' date='Sep 4 2008, 05:21 AM']From an economics 101 stand point the problem is not deregulation. You have government entities meddling with a market that is dependent on a cartel. There is not a better recipe for a market failure out there.[/quote] I believe that we're talking about two different things. I'll clarify by saying that historically I've been a libertarian Republican and generally don't mind deregulation that promotes more competition in the markets (breaking up the Bells, airline deregulation [though I appreciate the FAA cause airlines would attempt to fly a plane with one wing if they could]). My issue occurs with two types of deregulation: 1. Any deregulation that makes information within the market harder to get (Enron loophole/commodities trading over unsupervised exchanges, allowing the creation of securities packages that even experts in the field can't figure out, etc) 2. Deregulation on an industry that is beneficial to the society as a whole and where the profit motive is opposed to "the greater good". For example the insurance industry. To maximize profit in that industry, you would seek out a customer base that pays in and requires fewer payouts (young healthy people). It encourages companies to search for loopholes to avoid making payouts and to flat-out avoid covering people who need the service the most (older and/or sick folks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 [quote name='scrotos' post='696037' date='Sep 6 2008, 08:05 AM']I believe that we're talking about two different things. I'll clarify by saying that historically I've been a libertarian Republican and generally don't mind deregulation that promotes more competition in the markets (breaking up the Bells, airline deregulation [though I appreciate the FAA cause airlines would attempt to fly a plane with one wing if they could]). My issue occurs with two types of deregulation: 1. Any deregulation that makes information within the market harder to get (Enron loophole/commodities trading over unsupervised exchanges, allowing the creation of securities packages that even experts in the field can't figure out, etc) 2. [color="#FF0000"]Deregulation on an industry that is beneficial to the society as a whole and where the profit motive is opposed to "the greater good".[/color] For example the insurance industry. To maximize profit in that industry, you would seek out a customer base that pays in and requires fewer payouts (young healthy people). It encourages companies to search for loopholes to avoid making payouts and to flat-out avoid covering people who need the service the most (older and/or sick folks).[/quote] Such as the "Comanding Heights" that Lenin spoke of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 [quote name='scrotos' post='696037' date='Sep 6 2008, 08:05 AM']I believe that we're talking about two different things. I'll clarify by saying that historically I've been a libertarian Republican and generally don't mind deregulation that promotes more competition in the markets (breaking up the Bells, airline deregulation [though I appreciate the FAA cause airlines would attempt to fly a plane with one wing if they could]). My issue occurs with two types of deregulation: 1. Any deregulation that makes information within the market harder to get (Enron loophole/commodities trading over unsupervised exchanges, allowing the creation of securities packages that even experts in the field can't figure out, etc) 2. Deregulation on an industry that is beneficial to the society as a whole and where the profit motive is opposed to "the greater good". For example the insurance industry. To maximize profit in that industry, you would seek out a customer base that pays in and requires fewer payouts (young healthy people). It encourages companies to search for loopholes to avoid making payouts and to flat-out avoid covering people who need the service the most (older and/or sick folks).[/quote] Great post, I feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steggyD Posted September 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 I'll take a closer look in a couple days at everything Jamie. Game day #1, I can't focus on real issues. Got the jitters here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Hope you dont mind that I stole your post from the other board Ikota. [url="http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/09/9718_mccain_lehman_crisis_gramm.html"]http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archiv...isis_gramm.html[/url] [quote][size=5]McCain Blasts Wall Street Failure, Neglects To Mention His Adviser Helped Cause It[/size] As the news broke of the Lehman Brothers meltdown and the rest of the latest financial crisis, John McCain, speaking at a campaign rally in Florida on Monday, angrily declared, We will never put America in this position again. We will clean up Wall Street. This is a failure. And in a statement released by his campaign, McCain called for greater "transparency and accountability" on Wall Street. If McCain wants to hold someone accountable for the failure in transparency and accountability that led to the current calamity, he should turn to his good friend and adviser, Phil Gramm. As Mother Jones reported in June, eight years ago, Gramm, then a Republican senator chairing the Senate banking committee, slipped a 262-page bill into a gargantuan, must-pass spending measure. Gramm's legislation, written with the help of financial industry lobbyists, essentially removed newfangled financial products called swaps from any regulation. Credit default swaps are basically insurance policies that cover the losses on investments, and they have been at the heart of the subprime meltdown because they have enabled large financial institutions to turn risky loans into risky securities that could be packaged and sold to other institutions. Lehman's collapse threatens the financial markets because of swaps. From Bloomberg: Bond-default risk soared worldwide as the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. sparked concern than the $62 trillion credit-derivatives market will unravel.... Lehman, the fourth-largest securities firm until last week, has been one of the 10 largest counterparties in the market for credit-default swaps, according to a 2007 report by Fitch Ratings. The market, which is unregulated and has no central exchange where prices are disclosed, has been the fastest-growing type of so-called over-the-counter derivative, according to the Bank for International Settlements. "The immediate problem is the derivative default swaps market, in which a plethora of institutional accounts and dealer accounts are at risk,'' Bill Gross, manager of the world's largest bond fund at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, California, said in an interview with Bloomberg Radio yesterday. "It induces a tremendous amount of volatility and uncertainty.'' Barclays Capital analysts have estimated that if a financial institution with $2 trillion in credit-default swap trades were to fail, it might trigger between $36 billion and $47 billion in losses for institutions that traded with the firm. So the Lehman fiasco--caused in part by the use of unregulated swaps--could lead to ruin elsewhere in the economy. Gramm is responsible for the rise of the wild and woolly $62 trillion swaps market. And he was chairman of the McCain campaign and a top economic adviser for McCain--until he dismissed Americans worried about the economy as "whiners." After that comment, McCain dumped Gramm. But was Gramm truly excommunicated from McCain land? Last month, he attended a meeting of McCain's top supporters in Aspen, Colorado. And at a dinner that day, McCain singled out Gramm for praise. Last week, failed Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul revealed that Gramm, now an exec for Swiss banking giant UBS (which also lost billions of dollars due to subprime loans and swaps), had recently called him as part of a McCain effort to win Paul's endorsement. Paul turned Gramm down. (Both Gramm and Paul are Texas Republicans.) Gramm's Paul-courting effort seems to indicate that the fellow who has done much to cause the current financial troubles (and who was once considered a possible Treasury secretary should McCain win the White House) is back in the good graces of the McCain campaign. Shortly after McCain promised he would "clean up" Wall Street, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, his running mate, appeared at a Colorado rally on Monday morning and proclaimed that "John McCain and I will put an end to the abuses in Washington and Wall Street that have resulted in this financial crisis." She promised a McCain administration would "reform the way Wall Street does business." (She was short on details and spent more time discussing Colorado sports stars from Alaska.) What neither she nor McCain has explained is how they plan to be able to reform Wall Street when they are being assisted by 177 lobbyists and the guy who greased the way to the current crisis with a backroom legislative maneuver. If McCain and Palin are serious about never putting America "in this position again," they ought to consider seriously writing down any economic advice they get from Phil Gramm. ****** By the way, both McCain and Palin decried golden parachutes for CEOs. What might Carly Fiorina, a top McCain adviser and surrogate, think of that? She received a $21 million severance package when she was forced out as CEO of Hewlett-Packard, after her not-so-successful stint there--and the value of her golden parachute eventually reached $42 million.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 [url="http://www.236.com/news/2008/09/15/obama_stumbles_into_a_party_an_8955.php"]Courtesy 236:[/url] [img]http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3825/mcfartzr0.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='701785' date='Sep 16 2008, 01:42 PM'][url="http://www.236.com/news/2008/09/15/obama_stumbles_into_a_party_an_8955.php"]Courtesy 236:[/url] [img]http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3825/mcfartzr0.jpg[/img][/quote] [url="http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/mccains_energy_plan"]http://www.theonion.com/content/news_brief...ins_energy_plan[/url] [quote]McCain's Energy Plan Emphasizes Elbow Grease, Sleeve-Rolling-Up HOUSTON—While campaigning in Texas Monday, Sen. John McCain delivered a speech outlining his personal energy policy, a plan that offsets rising gas prices and dependence on foreign oil with a 38 percent increase in the national get-up-and-go. "Developing an intelligent energy policy is not only an environmental concern, but a national security concern as well, which is why I have developed a comprehensive plan to make hay while the sun's still shining," said the Republican presidential nominee, pulling out a dustpan. "If we are going to stave off another energy crisis, it is essential for all Americans to put your shoulders into it, wipe the sand out of your eyes, and reduce our dependence on foreign oil by 20 percent over the next five years." Sen. McCain said he has no doubt his energy plan will be successful, as he enacted a similar strategy in October when he had to clean out his garage.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 So, Anyone want to talk about the Keating Five? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='702359' date='Sep 18 2008, 12:03 PM']So, Anyone want to talk about the Keating Five?[/quote] The basics explained here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='702390' date='Sep 18 2008, 01:09 PM']The basics explained here: [/quote] :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Sadly this isnt that far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Bump. Even though this particular loopole was closed, Energy speculation is still going on which is why Oil/Gas prices are so high. It's not a supply and demand issue, the Saudi's are saying there is more than enough supply. http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/05/25/cftc-charges-oil-traders-in-2008-speculation-scheme/ [quote]CFTC Charges Oil Traders in 2008 Speculation Scheme The Commodity Futures Trading Commission charged one trading house and two individuals for illegally manipulating oil prices during the price spike of 2008, when oil reached $147 a barrel, by creating the appearance of a shortage to drive up the benchmark for crude. While the action covers oil trading in 2008, the connection to today, where speculation is seen as a primary cause for higher gas prices, is unmistakable. The CFTC complaint alleges that the traders carried out the scheme in January and March 2008. By mid-January they had accumulated 4.6m barrels of physical oil, or two-thirds of oil available for delivery against the February WTI futures contract. In March they bought 6.3m barrels, equal to 84 per cent of oil available for delivery against the April contact. The regulator alleged that Parnon Energy, a US oil trader, together with its Swiss and UK affiliates Arcadia Energy (Suisse) and Arcadia Petroleum, made more than $50m from the scheme in January and March 2008 [...] The buying created the impression of a shortage and pushed up the price of WTI futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Ahead of their move in the physical market, the traders allegedly bought large amounts of futures and other financial instruments that would profit from a price rise. “They wanted to lull market participants into believing that supply would remain tight,” the CFTC said. “They knew that as long as the market believed that supply was tight and getting even tighter, there would be upward pressure on the prices of WTI for February delivery relative to March delivery, which was their goal.” The employees at Arcadia/Parnon, James T. Dyer and Nicholas J. Wildgoose, were former BP traders, notes Brad Johnson of Think Progress. The CFTC has emails where the traders describe their scheme to make a “shitload of money” and then dump the trades on the market in an “inevitable puking.” There’s more from the New York Times. The penalties could rise to as much as $150 million, on top of recouping the $50 million in profits from the scheme. Sen. Maria Cantwell, who has doggedly chased this issue for years, said in a statement that “This is exactly what we expect the CFTC to be doing… Consumers have felt the impact of manipulation we’ve seen in the electricity, natural gas and oil markets. I expect the CFTC to be aggressive in policing these markets and standing up for consumers who are getting gouged at the pump.” This is exactly the kind of case that Attorney General Eric Holder is looking into as part of a working group the President asked him to convene, focused on fraud in the oil and gas markets. [b]Yet despite this action by the CFTC, and despite the fact that rampant speculation exists in the market today, the House GOP budget would cut funding for the CFTC by 15%.[/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steggyD Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 So closing it fixed nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='steggyD' timestamp='1307590481' post='996678'] So closing it fixed nothing? [/quote] mmmmmyeah pretty much. Welcome to America... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='steggyD' timestamp='1307590481' post='996678'] So closing it fixed nothing? [/quote] It got them to find another loopole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 While we all get mad at the politicians Wall St is who we should be really mad at. http://ourfinancialsecurity.org/2011/06/how-wall-street-speculation-is-driving-up-gasoline-prices-today/ [quote]How Wall Street Speculation is Driving Up Gasoline Prices Today Submitted by admin on June 28, 2011 – 12:09 pm Read a report here from the Political Economy Research Institute about speculation and rising gas prices. How Wall Street Speculation is Driving Up Gasoline Prices Today Robert Pollin and James Heintz Political Economy Research Institute University of Massachusetts, Amherst June 21, 2011 “The average retail price of gasoline at the pump, excluding taxes, in May was $3.96. In January 2009, the average retail price was $1.96 (expressed in May 2011 dollars). In other words, consumers are now paying twice as much to fill their cars as they did 2½ years ago. Even as recently as last October, the average gas price at the pump was $2.93. The average gas price has thus risen by a full dollar—35 percent—in only seven months. What explains thus huge run up in gas prices for consumers? To a significant extent, this is the result of the economy moving out of a deep recession, into a recovery, which has increased the demand for gasoline. But a major additional factor is the rapid growth in large-scale speculative trading around oil prices through the oil commodities futures market.” Click here for more.[/quote] The Report - http://ourfinancialsecurity.org/blogs/wp-content/ourfinancialsecurity.org/uploads/2011/06/PERI-AFR-Research-Brief-June2011.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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