Trend at DE is toward smaller, faster players

[Jeb]

[quote]ESPN.com
Updated: March 16, 2007



During the NFL combine last month, the defensive coordinator from a team that employs a 3-4 front was standing in a hallway, chatting it up with a reporter, when Clemson star Gaines Adams, the top-rated defensive end prospect in this year's draft, wandered by on his way to an interview appointment. Long and lithe, at nearly 6-feet-5 and 258 pounds, even just meandering through one of the mazelike corridors of the Indiana Convention Center, the smooth-moving Adams looked like a premier athlete.

It was enough to elicit a wolf-whistle from the defensive coordinator.

"That guy," said the coordinator, ogling Adams enviously, "looks like a damned greyhound, doesn't he? Great player. Really going to be big-time, I think. I love him. But what I need right now [on the defensive line] is a big, ol' St. Bernard."

Good luck finding one.

No matter how dogged the search, locating a defensive end with the kind of prototype size once required at the position has become increasingly difficult in the draft, and even in free agency. Fixated on attacking the pocket and not as concerned anymore with defending the run, colleges are growing end prospects lean, not necessarily mean, these days.

For a team seeking some meat at the position, it's tough trying to locate guys who are stout among the collection of relative stringbeans that now populates the defensive end spot. A strongside end like Kevin Carter, who came into the league a dozen years ago at nearly 300 pounds but still blessed with terrific movement skills, is a dinosaur.

"The 280- or 290-pound end is disappearing," acknowledged Buffalo Bills defensive line coach Bill Kollar. "You look at the ends coming into the league now, and they all kind of look like basketball players, you know? [There's] not a lot of bulk out there."

Consider the most highly regarded ends in the 2007 draft class: The average height and weight of the 12 ends cited most often by league scouts to ESPN.com as worthy of being taken in the first two rounds is 6-4 1/8 and 268.3 pounds, according to measurements recorded at the combine. Seven of the 12 are at least 6-foot-4 and four of those are 6-foot-5 or taller. At the same time, six weigh less than 270 pounds and only two, Jamaal Anderson of Arkansas and Nebraska's Adam Carriker weigh more than 285 pounds.

Of the eight ends who participated in the bench press segment of the combine, five were able to post 25 or more repetitions of the standard 225-pound weight. More notable, though, was that five of the eight who were timed in the 40-yard dash were clocked at 4.70 seconds or faster, reinforcing the notion that, even at end, it's a sprinter's game.

Little wonder that Carriker, whose huge frame stretches to 6-foot-6, is rapidly moving up the draft boards of teams that deploy in 4-3 and 3-4 fronts. Carriker is a two-way perimeter defender, who is equally effective anchoring against the run or chasing the quarterback. At the combine, where Carriker weighed 296 pounds, he registered a solid 33 repetitions on the bench press but still ran a 4.90 time in the 40.

The explosive Gaines, not surprisingly, clocked the best 40-yard time (4.64 seconds) among defensive ends, but opted not to do the bench press. Jarvis Moss of Florida, another lean, athletic end, was timed at 4.70, but did only 16 bench-press lifts. Yet the angular Moss, 6-foot-4½ and 250 pounds, is more typical of the kind of body type the premier end prospects increasingly possess.

"There's been a definite trickle-down effect," allowed Indianapolis defensive coordinator Ron Meeks, whose team plays with undersized, upfield-type ends in Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. "Everybody feels like you've got to sack the quarterback. At our level, at the college level, everywhere. So the colleges have taken guys who, oh, 10 years ago, would have been linebackers, and now, suddenly, they're ends. So what you get now are a lot of the 250- or 260-pound [ends]. And if you don't play the kind of scheme that features those guys, well, you're [in trouble]."

For the 3-4 teams in the league, the emphasis on sparely-built speed rushers has been both a blessing and a curse. It has permitted those teams to draw from an ever-burgeoning pool of hybrid defenders, "edge" players who can stand up on first and second down, then get down in a three-point stance on passing downs. The flip side, though, is that the 3-4 clubs struggle to get the 290-pound ends it takes to play the defense effectively.

Which is why a guy such as Arkansas' Anderson, who weighs 288 pounds and can hold up at the point of attack, yet is still a proven pass rusher, is so valuable.

"You name the style," said Anderson at the combine, "and I think I can play it. And there aren't a lot of ends who can say that."[/quote]

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2800846"]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=2800846[/url]

Justin Smith / Cincinnati Bengals

# 90 Justin Smith
Position: DE
Height: 6-4
Weight: 275
Born: 09/30/1979
College: Missouri
NFL Experience: 7

Defensive Stats
Year Team G Total Tkl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
2001 Cincinnati Bengals 15 53 41.0 12 8.5 2 28 14 21 0 3
2002 Cincinnati Bengals 16 59 47.0 12 6.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2003 Cincinnati Bengals 16 60 41.0 19 5 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
2004 Cincinnati Bengals 16 70 41.0 29 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2005 Cincinnati Bengals 16 65 45.0 20 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2006 Cincinnati Bengals 16 81 50.0 31 7.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 3

TOTAL 95 388 265 123 41.5 2 28 14 21 0 15

(just as a reference comparison)

Adewale Ogunleye / Chicago Bears

Career Statistics
Year Team G tckls solo ast sacks int yds avg lg td
2006 CHI 14 43 29 14 6.5 0 0 0.0 0 0
2005 CHI 15 40 36 4 10 0 0 0.0 0 0
2004 CHI 13 37 30 7 5 0 0 0.0 0 0
2003 MIA 16 62 43 19 15.5 0 0 0.0 0 0
2002 MIA 16 44 32 12 9.5 0 0 0.0 0 0
2001 MIA 7 3 1 2 0.5 0 0 0.0 0 0
2000 MIA 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0

[bengalsfan850]

i'd still prefer a little bit more size over a little bit more speed, tackles/ tight ends are easier to move that way

[spicoli22]

This is why I see a guy like Anthony Spencer as a real possibility for us in round 1. All indications are that if San Fran wouldn't have taken Manny Lawson last year he would've been our pick and not J Jo. Spencer has a lot of the same qualities.

[Jeb]

[quote name='bengalsfan850' post='458177' date='Mar 17 2007, 08:49 PM']i'd still prefer a little bit more size over a little bit more speed, tackles/ tight ends are easier to move that way[/quote]

Ogunleye is referred to as an elite DE, ...why? He has fewer total career sacks than Smith. He's not as good against the run as Smith is. From what I can see, one year has made him a legend and that wasn't even in Chicago. I doubt his sack stats would be as good as they are if it wasn't for the help that surrounds him. Smith has more tackles per year and is increasing that stat year-over-year. I look at Ogunleye and if he truly is considered elite then I say so is Smith!

[Guest OzBengal]

[quote name='spicoli' post='458181' date='Mar 17 2007, 07:57 PM']This is why I see a guy like Anthony Spencer as a real possibility for us in round 1. All indications are that if San Fran wouldn't have taken Manny Lawson last year he would've been our pick and not J Jo. Spencer has a lot of the same qualities.[/quote]

I think Spencer would be a reach at that point. I would take Jarvis Moss though.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='OzBengal' post='458187' date='Mar 17 2007, 09:20 PM']I think Spencer would be a reach at that point. I would take Jarvis Moss though.[/quote]
I think Spencer and Moss would be a reach at that point. I really doubt we get an end any time in the draft anyways since Smith might be locked up long term, Geathers already has been locked up, and Rucker was drafted in the 3rd last year. IF we did take an end in round 1, I really like Charles Johnson from Georgia.

[Guest OzBengal]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='458194' date='Mar 17 2007, 08:42 PM']I think Spencer and Moss would be a reach at that point. I really doubt we get an end any time in the draft anyways since Smith might be locked up long term, Geathers already has been locked up, and Rucker was drafted in the 3rd last year. IF we did take an end in round 1, I really like Charles Johnson from Georgia.[/quote]

I think if Smith was going to be locked up long term by now he would be. Geathers is more of a LDE while Rucker hasn't proven shit and he won't effect how we draft. We need a legit RDE to replace Smith if we can't sign him. Charles Johnson has a similar problem to both Spencer and LaMarr Woodley, undersized guys who don't project as stud rushers to the NFL. Jarvis Moss is 6'6, quick and has the long arms and frame to put on a lot more bulk. He is exactly what we need in a pass rusher and most mock drafts I have seen have him going before we pick.

[Kochman]

I think Moss is the most overrated guy in the draft!!!!!!!

[WhoDeyThink]

Can you say Jason Buck

[bengaled]

[quote name='Kochman' post='458226' date='Mar 17 2007, 11:42 PM']I think Moss is the most overrated guy in the draft!!!!!!![/quote]


one game wonder. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img]

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='OzBengal' post='458187' date='Mar 18 2007, 01:20 AM']I think Spencer would be a reach at that point. I would take Jarvis Moss though.[/quote]
I'm with these next 2 guys, who sum up my thoughts exactly...

[quote name='Kochman' post='458226' date='Mar 18 2007, 04:42 AM']I think Moss is the most overrated guy in the draft!!!!!!![/quote]


[quote name='bengaled' post='458244' date='Mar 18 2007, 06:35 AM']one game wonder. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img][/quote]

If we take this guy, I will be upset.

Akili, I have seen where the Bengals have shown interest in Charles Johnson, fwiw... From what I've read, he does sound a lot like Justin, only minus the high motor.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='OzBengal' post='458220' date='Mar 18 2007, 12:08 AM']I think if Smith was going to be locked up long term by now he would be. Geathers is more of a LDE while Rucker hasn't proven shit and he won't effect how we draft. We need a legit RDE to replace Smith if we can't sign him. Charles Johnson has a similar problem to both Spencer and LaMarr Woodley, undersized guys who don't project as stud rushers to the NFL. Jarvis Moss is 6'6, quick and has the long arms and frame to put on a lot more bulk. He is exactly what we need in a pass rusher and most mock drafts I have seen have him going before we pick.[/quote]
There is a still a ton of time left to lock him up, he's been franchised for what a month? Rucker will effect how we draft, he is expected to contribute immediately as a 3rd round pick, and can play on the right side. Undersized is the way to go didn't you read the article? Johnson was the best end in college last year, and was unblockable. He may not be as good a pass rusher as the other elite guys, but he is a beast against the run.

Moss is quick, but he is built like a basketball player, and doesn't have much more room for growth. He is EXTREMELY overrated, just look at his college numbers and combine. For a great pass rusher, his 15 career sacks (or 7.5 per season) is pathetic. He also is a major liability against the run, and that's why we won't take him.

[texbengal]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='458275' date='Mar 18 2007, 07:43 AM']There is a still a ton of time left to lock him up, he's been franchised for what a month? Rucker will effect how we draft, he is expected to contribute immediately as a 3rd round pick, and can play on the right side. Undersized is the way to go didn't you read the article? Johnson was the best end in college last year, and was unblockable. He may not be as good a pass rusher as the other elite guys, but he is a beast against the run.

Moss is quick, but he is built like a basketball player, and doesn't have much more room for growth. He is EXTREMELY overrated, just look at his college numbers and combine. For a great pass rusher, his 15 career sacks (or 7.5 per season) is pathetic. He also is a major liability against the run, and that's why we won't take him.[/quote]


I agree on Justin, as well as on Rucker. Frostee went through all of TC and much of the pre-season in 2006, and I think the Bengals know some of what they've got. In 2007, I think he'll help the pass rush and the run defense, too.

Currently, Moss is underweight, and I know it sounds strange, but he's still growing into his body. He almost had to give up football early in his career due to illness, and he lost a lot of weight - and he's still gaining strength (and from what I've read, he can add another 15-20 pounds to get to 265-270). He won't be a great run defender, but he's very quick and can be a really good pass rusher, IMO. Given that he's like Geathers in what he brings to the table, I don't see the Bengals taking him. But I also think that in time, he can be a very solid pass rusher for someone.

[bengalsfan850]

justin is the only every-down end we have right now, i don't count rucker because he is not healthy, fanene is versitle and can play anywhere on the line but has not been injury free and would be best in a backup role, gathers is our best pass-rushing end but his run-play is not as godd but he is young and developing, robenson is done as a bengal as far as i can tell his only chance is if thorton is released so he can play tackle but these are my favorite DE prospects that we could get on day one
round 1
Adam Carricker- he is big an could line up at tackle also where his future may be, he could come in in running situations for gathers, and could be smith's replacement in 08 if no deal is reacehd, he is simaler to smith in terms of motor and run-play but is a slightly better pass rusher

round 2
Lamarr Woodley- he is a little short but he is a playmaker and that cannot be ignored 17 tkl for loss and 12 sack in his senior season, and i think he could be smith's replacement if there is no deal, if they do reach a deal then he would be a great roatational DE and get some time as a rush " sam" backer

but of corse if gaines adams or jamall anderson falls our way, but that won't happen

[bengaled]

[quote name='bengalsfan850' post='458299' date='Mar 18 2007, 09:10 AM']justin is the only every-down end we have right now, i don't count rucker because he is not healthy, fanene is versitle and can play anywhere on the line but has not been injury free and would be best in a backup role, gathers is our best pass-rushing end but his run-play is not as godd but he is young and developing, robenson is done as a bengal as far as i can tell his only chance is if thorton is released so he can play tackle but these are my favorite DE prospects that we could get on day one
round 1
Adam Carricker- he is big an could line up at tackle also where his future may be, he could come in in running situations for gathers, and could be smith's replacement in 08 if no deal is reacehd, he is simaler to smith in terms of motor and run-play but is a slightly better pass rusher

round 2
Lamarr Woodley- he is a little short but he is a playmaker and that cannot be ignored 17 tkl for loss and 12 sack in his senior season, and i think he could be smith's replacement if there is no deal, if they do reach a deal then he would be a great roatational DE and get some time as a rush " sam" backer

but of corse if gaines adams or jamall anderson falls our way, but that won't happen[/quote]


carriker would seem to be a dream pick and we could groom him to be our next 3-type, eventually replacing thornton. we could unload BROB this year and use a combination of fanene/carriker/ rucker at LDE on running downs. when we change to our pas rush package, a front four of j.smith, carriker, rucker, and geathers would generate pressure on the QB like we've not seen in years and who knows, eric henderson might find his way into that mix. looks pretty good on paper, anyway. i'd even go so far as to offer next year's 3rd to make sure we got carriker (or okoye) for that matter. our comp pick(s) would allow us to do that without too much grief.

[texbengal]

[quote name='bengaled' post='458313' date='Mar 18 2007, 09:45 AM']carriker would seem to be a dream pick and we could groom him to be our next 3-type, eventually replacing thornton. we could unload BROB this year and use a combination of fanene/carriker/ rucker at LDE on running downs. when we change to our pas rush package, a front four of j.smith, carriker, rucker, and geathers would generate pressure on the QB like we've not seen in years and who knows, eric henderson might find his way into that mix. looks pretty good on paper, anyway. i'd even go so far as to offer next year's 3rd to make sure we got carriker (or okoye) for that matter. our comp pick(s) would allow us to do that without too much grief.[/quote]

I agree on the possible DL combinations... and the pass rushing could be worlds better.

I also think that as a spot run defender, Geathers is effective - he just can't take the pounding of being an every-down player like Justin can. Rucker would likely get some time at RDE, too, I would guess.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='bengalsfan850' post='458299' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:10 AM']justin is the only every-down end we have right now, i don't count rucker because he is not healthy, fanene is versitle and can play anywhere on the line but has not been injury free and would be best in a backup role, gathers is our best pass-rushing end but his run-play is not as godd but he is young and developing, robenson is done as a bengal as far as i can tell his only chance is if thorton is released so he can play tackle but these are my favorite DE prospects that we could get on day one
round 1
Adam Carricker- he is big an could line up at tackle also where his future may be, he could come in in running situations for gathers, and could be smith's replacement in 08 if no deal is reacehd, he is simaler to smith in terms of motor and run-play but is a slightly better pass rusher

round 2
Lamarr Woodley- he is a little short but he is a playmaker and that cannot be ignored 17 tkl for loss and 12 sack in his senior season, and i think he could be smith's replacement if there is no deal, if they do reach a deal then he would be a great roatational DE and get some time as a rush " sam" backer

but of corse if gaines adams or jamall anderson falls our way, but that won't happen[/quote]
There's no way in hell we don't draft a corner or linebacker (by far our two biggest needs) in the first two rounds. Two defensive ends would not be very smart...

[bengalsfan850]

with carriker or woodley end would become a strengh but we need a nickelback who can replace deltha in a few years, and a weakside backer would help out, and a young sam adams type guy. those needs are also big

[bengaled]

[quote name='texbengal' post='458317' date='Mar 18 2007, 09:53 AM']I also think that as a spot run defender, Geathers is effective - he just can't take the pounding of being an every-down player like Justin can. Rucker would likely get some time at RDE, too, I would guess.[/quote]

maybe i'm wrong, but i think we should keep geathers in his present role and utilize him as a specialist, and let his legs stay fresh. it's what he does best and he seemed like a different player when used in this role. it's counter-productive to ask him to perform in our run packages and think we have better options. i've always seen him as a gazelle type and never a guy that's able (or willing) to stick his nose in there.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='bengalsfan850' post='458321' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:05 AM']with carriker or woodley end would become a strengh but we need a nickelback who can replace deltha in a few years, and a weakside backer would help out, and a young sam adams type guy. those needs are also big[/quote]
But our defense only uses 2 ends, and we already have 2 good starters and a young 3rd round guy, so while it may be a strength you can't have 5 ends on the field at the same time.

We need a starting corner who can replace Deltha like this season. The only corners on the roster are Joseph, Deltha and Ratlif. If Deltha plays like he did last year, we are fucked. We desperately need an impact player who can contribute immediately.

On the weakside, we have a couple solid guys, but nobody that is really a 3 down player. We need someone who can cover tight ends and running backs, and is not afraid of contact.

I think we need an under tackle more, since Peko fits the bill as the "Sam Adams" type or nose tackle.

[bengaled]

[quote name='bengalsfan850' post='458321' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:05 AM']with carriker or woodley end would become a strengh but we need a nickelback who can replace deltha in a few years, and a weakside backer would help out, and a young sam adams type guy. those needs are also big[/quote]

with adam carriker's selection, DEFENSIVE TACKLE would become a strength vs. the pass, and DE would become a strength vs. the rush. the number of years carriker remains effective as a DE are limited with age/weight gain. he's a DT waiting to happen, especially if he goes to a 4-3 team. in the future peko can slide over and hold down sam's nose position. address the other concerns as the draft goes on and keep and eye on the waiver wire.

[dex]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='458330' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:51 AM']We need a starting corner who can replace Deltha like this season. The only corners on the roster are Joseph, Deltha and Ratlif. If Deltha plays like he did last year, we are fucked. We desperately need an impact player who can contribute immediately.[/quote]
In 2005 Deltha was the second best cornerback in the AFC behind Champ Bailey. It wasn't just all of the interceptions, he didn't allow big plays at all. He was brilliant. In 2006 Deltha was an absolute disaster. Part of it was injuries, but only part. Pretty obvious that he had a number of problems this past season, not all of them physical. IMO, his stunning decline was the top reason why the Bengals didn't make the playoffs. It wasn't expected but he was a disaster. If he plays like he did in 2006, then Deltha will have to be replaced. But if Deltha would revert back to his 2005 form, there's absolutely no CB in the draft that could move him to the sidelines. And I happen to think there are some really intriging CB prospects out there.

[bengaled]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='458330' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:51 AM']But our defense only uses 2 ends, and we already have 2 good starters and a young 3rd round guy, so while it may be a strength you can't have 5 ends on the field at the same time.[/quote]
not so. while we have two decent DE's and one unproven guy vs. the pass, there's no way you can call either robinson or geathers as "good starters" vs. the run. and our dt's absolutely suck in the passing game....so much so that it puts undue pressure on our ends to overperform. when you solve the LOS problems, EVERYBODY'S job becomes easier and they all start performing better.

[bengaled]

[quote name='dex' post='458333' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:06 AM']In 2005 Deltha was the second best cornerback in the AFC behind Champ Bailey. It wasn't just all of the interceptions, he didn't allow big plays at all. He was brilliant. In 2006 Deltha was an absolute disaster. Part of it was injuries, but only part. Pretty obvious that he had a number of problems this past season, not all of them physical. IMO, his stunning decline was the top reason why the Bengals didn't make the playoffs. It wasn't expected but he was a disaster. If he plays like he did in 2006, then Deltha will have to be replaced. But if Deltha would revert back to his 2005 form, there's absolutely no CB in the draft that could move him to the sidelines. And I happen to think there are some really intriging CB prospects out there.[/quote]

i'd agree with most of this except for the part about this year's crop of CB's. there's not a can't miss guy in the whole pack. for that reason, i'd just as soon take one in the 2nd round where the value's better and the stakes aren't as high that he'll bust out. the absolute worst thing that could happen to this team would be to blow this year's 1st round pick. it's imperative that we make a good selection.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='bengaled' post='458335' date='Mar 18 2007, 12:11 PM']not so. while we have two decent DE's and one unproven guy vs. the pass, there's no way you can call either robinson or geathers as "good starters" vs. the run. and our dt's absolutely suck in the passing game....so much so that it puts undue pressure on our ends to overperform. when you solve the LOS problems, EVERYBODY'S job becomes easier and they all start performing better.[/quote]
Geathers and Smith are both good, not great, but good starters. Geathers isn't horrible against the run, and is actually not bad at all when you compare him to most guys with 10+ sacks. Rucker was drafted in the 3rd round last year as the "run-stopping" end. I know he is unproven, but we picked him to do a job, and expect him to do it. He wasn't a popular pick, but obviously our coaching staff and scouts saw something in him to warrant spending a first day pick.

I do agree that tackle needs be upgraded though, specifically someone who can create some pressure on the QB, and I think we will use one of our first 3 picks on one.