SEMPER FI FALLUJAH

[TheBZ]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='221202' date='Feb 22 2006, 03:56 AM']And all you people saying you don't think BJ hates America, what has he ever posted that could possibly make you think anything different? It's not like he tries to hide it. He shoves it in your face constantly. He goes way beyond liberal versus conservative. He has a Che Guevara tattoo. He considers people like Marx and Lenin heroes. I'm not even arguing whether he's right or wrong, but he definitely hates everything America is, or ever was.

You may argue that he just hates injustice. Well he thinks America is the biggest perpetrator of injustice. A lot of people might agree with him, but a lot of people hate America. I'm just saying he's one of them. Apparently so is BZ. Maybe BJ would be happier in Canada. He can shiver and hate us all he wants up there. He'd fit right in.

Keep in mind, it's not like I'm a staunch conservative. I disagree with them on many issues. I only defend them when liberals lose their fucking minds which is pretty much all the time these days. BJ is still espousing the belief that Bush staged 9/11. Get a fucking grip, people.

Divide and conquer is the best strategy for war. Liberals have declared war on America using this strategy. They're too fucking stupid to realize that they are digging their own grave too in the process. Keep rooting against us. Keep inventing evil conspiracies at every turn. Keep pushing for a socialist America. But be careful what you wish for.[/quote]

That sad thing is...I actually am shivering right now.

It's damned cold here tonight.

BZ

PS. I don't believe 9/11 was staged.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='TheBZ' post='221111' date='Feb 21 2006, 09:46 PM'][quote name='BlackJesus' post='219944' date='Feb 19 2006, 01:42 AM']
[b] that was 4 rediculous minutes of pure Machismo bullshit .... I love how they forgot to show any of them dying or their triumphant lives back home when some of them return home as amputees or blinded by shrapnel ....

what a fucking Joke

I can't believe people watch that shit and applaud like we are somehow fighting for something other than control of another Fucking country ..... and thus we are "having fun" flattening it and the people that live there ....

This is not some glorious struggle to free our nation from oppression .... this is a bunch of under educated Gun ho boys who watched too many Rambo Movies and grew up in a militaristic American society and thus think that anytime they shoot something that it is justified .... little do they know they are just cannon fodder for the transnational corporations who enrich themself off of their dead, shot up, rotting corpses [/b][/quote]
[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='220107' date='Feb 19 2006, 03:57 PM']Mixed feelings on this video:

1) In some ways, I find it as offensive as the propaganda video I posted earlier, just less graphic.

2) As someone who served on ships that toted Marines around the Med (and elsewhere), I appreciate their skill and their valor, but I try not to get too carried away on the "hero" adulation. On the other hand, they are kids for the most part, which means to me that they are generally trying to make the best of the situation they find themselves in--if making a video with really crappy music helps them keep their balance, then I understand that.

3) And while I agree with BJ about the utter stupidity of putting our troops in this conflict, I also remember that they are human beings, too. We all are swept up in history in one way or another and I suspect we all make compromises with our individual places within the overall context.[/quote]

I can't help but think that if we could find a perfect marriage between that wide-eyed idealism and Homer's measured pace, then that would be a very powerful voice.

Unfortunately, those who are still stuck in the 50s and early 60s (about half the people here) would still be unaffected.

[quote name='The_Joker' post='220167' date='Feb 19 2006, 06:37 PM']I normally don't get involved in the politics of this board but as a former Marine and a veteran of Desert Storm I do have some beliefs on the conflict at hand.

1) The American people were flat out lied to in order to get into this "war"
2) I feel for the young men over there right now. Most of them are fighting a battle they know nothing about.
3) Young Marines right out of boot camp and early in the grunt outfits would topple New York City if ordered to.
4) The demolishing of a 3rd world country is really nothing to brag about. It would be like me kicking the shit out of a 3rd grader.
5) To the far Right on this board..Do you really believe Saddam was a threat to our country? WMD's?
6) The Bush administration is way off on this one. No exit strategy at all...maybe they will not need one and we will continue to occupy Iraq.

I don't think BJ hates America. He has been to areas in this world that many of you have never even seen on your BIG SCREENS. I think he has a better idea of how the WORLD really is...more than most on this board anyway. His passion for the equal treatment for all mankind is very clear. Hopefully, when he finishes his Phd. he will shed some light on the younger generation of conservitives if he becomes a Professor. Maybe even someones kid form this fourm.

For those who think this effort is justified...what have you done for your country, what are you doing for the cause besides showing Motivational Videos? Do you think your vote for Bush was enough?

I love my country and there is no where else like it but I feel we as a nation are fucking up by our continued POLICEING of the world.[/quote]

Great to hear something like this from you...I'm a bit sad that you only bring it out every once in awhile, but maybe that would take away from the effect.

I also don't think BJ hates America...He's angry at the injustice perpetrated in the world in the name of national security (that is really about money) or political ideology, and I have to admit...So am I.

But I'm pretty sure that BJ doesn't react like I do when he sees the news...I get so pissed off about it, that I actively cheer for every freedom-fighting strike against the occupying US forces.

I'm sure he doesn't whistle with glee like I do when I watch your deficit soar, and see the US automotive manufacturers crumple under the onslaught of cheaper-made, better-made asian vehicles...Or the outsourcing of tech jobs to a strengthening Indian economy...Or the shift in oil dominance to the rumbling Chinese Industrial machine.

I'm sure he doesn't count the days until it all comes crashing down, and your infrastructure crumbles under the weight of an economy that is so unbalanced that it can only be supported by imperialist ventures.

I don't think these responses are right, though...I shouldn't get so emotionally tied up in wanting to see the bully get punched in the mouth. I should keep in mind war and poverty are the enemies, and not a nation that is made up of a majority of hard-working, funny, good-natured people.

But it's hard to keep that perspective sometimes. Especially when it appears that such blatant wrongs are blindly supported by the masses.

But it's not my country...So I can only watch and wait for A) the juggernaut to stall and become crushed under its own weight; or B ) for America to put partisanship aside long enough to get the kind of leadership that can right the ship, and re-find enough self-sufficience to put aside the propoganda-fronted strip-mining of countries that simply cannot defend themselves.

Until then...I cheer for the underdog.

BZ
[/quote]
The US automakers will not crumble, only restructure and contibute to the Canuk GDP as they move north. And those Asian car are made right here..Georgetown,KY...Maryville,OH just to name two...made by American workers.

But I digress; Years ago when I was 18-23 I would watch the bombing runs on CNN and would cheer like it was a sporting event...now I look back a realize how sad that was.

I think it is important to keep in mind that REAL people are being killed...some are bad people, some are our own, and some are kids and women...that is a fact of "war" , if that is what you want to call this one. For the American to sit back and watch this and cheer is irresponsible..bottom line. Sure have pride in your country, but to sit back and act like it is an ESPN highlight (Jacked Up) film is Bull Shit.

The double stantard during the media age is the shit that pisses me off. For instance, if Al-Jezera shows an American prisoner on tape saying let me the fuck go our media goes ape shit...However, when our troops are bringing in prisoners it is posted on every channel you turn to including in the pentegon. Isn't this against the Geneva Convention?

During conflicts like this we should not gloat in the onesided ass whoppin' like a bunch of rednecks watching the WWF. Just vote someone in with a vision and a PLAN to fix it. Conflicts like this are fixed by leaders not by bombs that incite a growing hatred for our nation.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='221202' date='Feb 22 2006, 03:56 AM']And all you people saying you don't think BJ hates America, what has he ever posted that could possibly make you think anything different? It's not like he tries to hide it. He shoves it in your face constantly. He goes way beyond liberal versus conservative. He has a Che Guevara tattoo. He considers people like Marx and Lenin heroes. I'm not even arguing whether he's right or wrong, but he definitely hates everything America is, or ever was.

You may argue that he just hates injustice. Well he thinks America is the biggest perpetrator of injustice. A lot of people might agree with him, but a lot of people hate America. I'm just saying he's one of them. Apparently so is BZ. Maybe BJ would be happier in Canada. He can shiver and hate us all he wants up there. He'd fit right in.

Keep in mind, it's not like I'm a staunch conservative. I disagree with them on many issues. I only defend them when liberals lose their fucking minds which is pretty much all the time these days. BJ is still espousing the belief that Bush staged 9/11. Get a fucking grip, people.

Divide and conquer is the best strategy for war. Liberals have declared war on America using this strategy. They're too fucking stupid to realize that they are digging their own grave too in the process. Keep rooting against us. Keep inventing evil conspiracies at every turn. Keep pushing for a socialist America. But be careful what you wish for.[/quote]
Don't get me worng BB, I love this country and I still believe it is the best country on earth.

I am giving BJ the benifit of the doubt and think sometimes he goes a little over board for effect.. I mean look at this topic and all the shit that has been stirred up. Until I see him burning a flag he is still an American in my book.

I too have a middle ground political view. I also agree that right now the Democratic party is suffering the sad thing is the Republicans haven't shown much either. I feel we are in limbo with no direction for our country...it is scarry and sad.

As far as Canada is concerned....
[img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2136/cartmanch9xn.gif[/img]Cartman: I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!

[img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8708/902b7ek.jpg[/img]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='221198' date='Feb 22 2006, 01:51 AM'][quote name='TheBZ' post='221111' date='Feb 21 2006, 09:46 PM']
Great to hear something like this from you...I'm a bit sad that you only bring it out every once in awhile, but maybe that would take away from the effect.

I also don't think BJ hates America...He's angry at the injustice perpetrated in the world in the name of national security (that is really about money) or political ideology, and I have to admit...So am I.

But I'm pretty sure that BJ doesn't react like I do when he sees the news...[b]I get so pissed off about it, that I actively cheer for every freedom-fighting strike against the occupying US forces.[/b]

[b]I'm sure he doesn't whistle with glee like I do when I watch your deficit soar, and see the US automotive manufacturers crumple under the onslaught of cheaper-made, better-made asian vehicles...Or the outsourcing of tech jobs to a strengthening Indian economy...Or the shift in oil dominance to the rumbling Chinese Industrial machine.

I'm sure he doesn't count the days until it all comes crashing down, and your infrastructure crumbles under the weight of an economy that is so unbalanced that it can only be supported by imperialist ventures.[/b]

I don't think these responses are right, though...[b]I shouldn't get so emotionally tied up in wanting to see the bully get punched in the mouth.[/b] I should keep in mind war and poverty are the enemies, and not a nation that is made up of a majority of hard-working, funny, good-natured people.

But it's hard to keep that perspective sometimes. Especially when it appears that such blatant wrongs are blindly supported by the masses.

But it's not my country...[b]So I can only watch and wait for A) the juggernaut to stall and become crushed under its own weight[/b]; or B ) for America to put partisanship aside long enough to get the kind of leadership that can right the ship, and re-find enough self-sufficience to put aside the propoganda-fronted strip-mining of countries that simply cannot defend themselves.

[b]Until then...I cheer for the underdog.[/b]

BZ[/quote]


BZ. I've always liked you on here, so don't take this too persoanlly, but [size=6][b]FUCK YOU !!!![/b][/size]

Canadian's smugness towards America pisses me off. Every Canadian I've ever talked to about this has this attitude towards us. There are only two reasons Canada hasn't been taken over by some other country.

1) Nobody wants it.

2) America wouldn't allow it.


That bully you bitch about is all that stands between you and your fucking ruin. You don't have to like us, but don't root against us. God damn that pisses me off !!! Wish for our demise all you want, but if we go down, you're going down with us. I can't believe you wrote "actively cheer for every freedom-fighting strike against the occupying US forces". Freedom fighting???

[size=6][b]Double fuck you !!!![/b][/size]


Fuckin' Canadians with their flappy heads!!!!!





[/quote]



Fuck You and double fuck you, were way to kind.


I guess name calling and stuff wouldn`t help anything though...


BZ-"I don`t think BJ hates America...because this is what real hate looks like."


I really need to stay out of this forum...

[85fanwilkes]

Damn that was a really cool video.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='85fanwilkes' post='221234' date='Feb 22 2006, 08:17 AM']Damn that was a really cool video.[/quote]
Leave it to a NASCAR fan....

[85fanwilkes]

Jackass............


j/k....maybe

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]although I do love watching conversations on whether people think I hate America .... I'll guess I'll chime in for myself


[color="#3366FF"]- Do I hate America? Well it depends on what you define as "America"?[/color]

[color="#3366FF"]= Do I hate the physical country of America?[/color] No that would be rediculous .... some of the worlds most beautiful landscape is here (at least for the next few decades or so till it is dotted with Oil towers and strip mined)

[color="#3366FF"]= Do I hate the principles that America is founded on and it's history?[/color]
Only partially ..... they did give some great lip service to some noble attributes like "freedom" ... "liberty" and "justice" ..... Now as we all know blacks had to wait about 80 more years to be unchained from the barn and 180 more years to share a water fountain with whitey ..... (not to mention that a vagina precluded you from voting for a century and a half and most of the indigenous inhabitants of this nation were systematically exterminated before their "justice" arrived)

- But I do appreciate some things about Americas founding ...... I appreciate the fact that many founders of America were "insurgent" militants .... who were blue collared and tired of taking the monarchys shit ..... they were "rebels" who used "Guerrilla type tactics" to defeat a better armed and trained Birtish force .... and then outlined one of the most Beautiful documents ever written - "The Declaration of Independence" ...... (ironically Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Cong would model their declaration off of ours)

- I also love that America has a deep Populist history with regards to supporting labor and workers rights .... I love the fact that many of Americas great minds have been able to advocate for socialism within our nation - people such as Hellen Keller, Upton Sinclair, Eugene Debs etc (in which their fight has given us some of the saftey net we still have remaining today)

- I love the fact that America has a laxer system of free speech than many nations ..... I like satire, commentary, crude humor, freedom to make obscene art or jokes, and the ability to criticize my government without being killed ..... America is better than many nations in this regard .... but unfortunately we are slipping in many aspects under this current administration

- I like the fact that in America we have a vibrant system of the arts ..... I enjoy good movies, paintings, poems, and ideas of expression .... and I like that we are allowed to express ourselves for the most part in a free manner


[color="#3366FF"]Now Do I hate the current administration of the United States ? Yes[/color]

The reasons are numerous and should be fairly clear by now. I think that Bush is systematically destroying the U.S. constitution and the few noble ideals that we had the upper hand on the rest of the world on ....

[u]The America I love would not[/u]
- Torture
- Detain people without trial
- Spy on anyone in America without a warrant
- Invade a soveriegn nation that did not pose an imminent threat
- Let 45 million Americans go without Healthcare while cutting the taxes for Billionaires


[color="#3366FF"]Do I hate all of the U.S. Government ? No[/color]

I realize there are many good people in the State Dept, military, intelligence, congress, etc etc etc that disagree with this administration as much as I do ..... [/b]

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

I think BJ is exactly the type of American (well almost) the founding fathers wanted when they created this country.

Very critical and very vocal about the injustices brought upon it.

Most of you by founding father's standards are probably much less of an "American" than he is.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='221303' date='Feb 22 2006, 10:38 AM']I think BJ is exactly the type of American (well almost) the founding fathers wanted when they created this country.

Very critical and very vocal about the injustices brought upon it.

Most of you by founding father's standards are probably much less of an "American" than he is.[/quote]

so they wanted closed minded people that believe in no economic freedom, welfare, social programs, abortion, and conspiracy theorists?

i would guess the founding fathers would want openminded people w/ common sense, an inherited love for this country, and people that are willing to make america greater...

but now that i explained my position, would you care to turn your rheteric you are spewing, and make sense out of it it me, and explain why the f.f.'s envisioned a "good american" as someone that needs a definition of america before he will explain whether or not he likes it or not.....

[Jamie_B]

Couple things,

This idea that we grew as a nation off free labor is indeed a sad truth. However to paint it as if every American even in those times were like "Slavery... Fuck Yeah" is absurd. You can convice youselves all you want that the only reason the northern states wanted freedom was for political reasons, but its just simply not true and it would only take a little digging into the history of some of the people who were against it to see that. I've said before that a distant relitive of mine is Lincoln's 1st VP Hannibal Hamlin, so that in and of itself meant my family back then had at least some money. However to say that it was passed down from generation to generation and now Im rich because of it is simply not true either. My grandfather passed last year and we found a bunch of letters from my great grandmother that were written during the time of the depression that had to do with the fact that my great grandfater couldnt get a job and was trying to work in the horse ranching industry with no success whatsoever. She left him because he couldnt take care of his family and married another that could, and my grandfather was adopted by this gentalman. Now I have very little idea of what happened to my real grandfather past that, but he was definatly not "living in the riches passed down to him". The depression changed that for many many Americans. So while Im sadened at some of our history, I also must seriously disagree with those who say were living off the riches of our past. Generations change and what one does with money they are given or not given doesnt mean that the next generation will benifit from that, it's what each individual does with his or herself that determines that.

One of my good friends father is well off, however this wasnt always the case, he made his wealth through hard work. His son whom I love deeply as a friend, is 25 years old and living at home with his parent trying to be an actor, and while he has done alot of local work, and is about to get his first lead as Jesus in a local production of "Jesus Christ Superstar", I as a former musican know he will probabally never make it, but dont have the heart to tell him that. He isnt contributing to socity and Im worried that he may be in a position where he doesnt ever "make something" of himself. If that is the case, then any money his father has made for him he will just squander and any future generations of his family wolnt have it. So this notion that eveyone who has made money means their children always do right by that and the future generations always benifit from that isnt always the case and I'd argue probabally is less the case than some make it out to be.

[|Lucid|]

BZ

I have to say I agree with much you are saying (except the rooting against America part). But I have one interjection I would like to make.

I have heard MANY canadians refer t the ar of 1812 as "America attacking Canada".

In reality this is a false statement. America did not attack Canada as a nation.

America attacked a Brtish resource... A colony.

Maybe Britian should be mad about the War of 1812. But it's not quite accurate to portray that war as a Americans attacking Candadians.

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='221313' date='Feb 22 2006, 10:57 AM']i would guess the founding fathers would want openminded people w/ common sense, an inherited love for this country, and people that are willing to make america greater...[/quote]


No you are wrong.




















j/k the main point I was trying to make, I was going to wait until a little later, but I might not be back on for a day or two, so I will do it now, was that calling BJ unamerican is as extreme as me calling you guys unamerican for not being as critical on US government. Both are wrong, I was trying to show the other extreme of it.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]I am giving BJ the benifit of the doubt ... Until I see him burning a flag he is still an American in my book.[/quote]

[b]Joker, I believe one of the most patriotic symbols that we have is a burning American flag .... to me it symbolizes a country that is so secure within it's principles that it understands they can't be harmed with a few matches ....[/b]


[quote]And all you people saying you don't think BJ hates America, He has a Che Guevara tattoo. He considers people like Marx and Lenin heroes. I'm not even arguing whether he's right or wrong, but he definitely hates everything America is, or ever was.[/quote]

[b]Backer ....

to correct your statement I don't consider Lenin or Marx heros ..... I appreciate Karl Marx for being in my mind the most brilliant Economist the world has ever known (his actual profession) and I believe that all of his predictions are and will come to fruition .... (he actually predicted the so called Victory of capitalism which would then lead to it's inevitable collapse from within) = which will occur this century..... (ironically most people that bash him have never read anything by him .... and wrongly think Stalin carried out Marxs vision of Communism .... which couldn't be farther fromt he truth ..... to call Stalin a carrier of Marx is to call the Inquisition or Crusades the carrier of the tenants of Christianity)
As for Lenin hs also strayed away from the writings of Marx in time .... but I do admire the way in which he deposed a brutal monarchy ..... as for people of that era .... I believe that Trotsky was one of the few that didn't stray .... hence he became an enemy of Stalin and was killed by him ....
As for Che .... I have read every single piece of writing he has ever written and deeply admire the principles that he stood for and the stand that he took (although I realize he was also flawed as are all people), and ironically again those that bash him usually have never read anything he wrote or studied the context with which he was operating in)

= But that is for another thread ..... and not want I want to discuss in this one .....



[color="#3366FF"]As for BZ [/color] ..... I understand many of the things you are saying ..... and admire your honesty with which you state them ...... too many times in our current climate people fear speaking how the feel ..... as for rooting for the insurgents ..... to me it is a little bit more nuanced than that and depends on the situation ....

Many of the insurgent groups I hate ..... the bastard sunnis in iraq will get no support of mine because I realize also that they were the ones who propped up Saddam while he killed Kurds and Shia at will .....

However I do want us to Leave Iraq ..... but that is because I want it to split up because I feel there never was an Iraq ..... all it is .... is a square that Winston Churchill drew on a map one day .... Iraq is really 3 nations and to me the Shia and Kurds deserve not to have to live with the fuckers that use to torture their families (the Sunnis) ..... however our dumbass is making them stay one nation .... so that they have to honor the Oil contracts we signed with them .....

thus I want us to Leave Iraq and quit killing innocent people and get the blood off of our hands and quit inflaming the world for a futile cause.... because I feel that our precence is leaving the Kurds and Shia also more vulnerable to attack because until we leave ..... they can't kick some ass and get their retribution and state they have been waiting for ..... [/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='221327' date='Feb 22 2006, 11:15 AM'][quote name='bengalrick' post='221313' date='Feb 22 2006, 10:57 AM']
i would guess the founding fathers would want openminded people w/ common sense, an inherited love for this country, and people that are willing to make america greater...[/quote]


No you are wrong.




















j/k the main point I was trying to make, I was going to wait until a little later, but I might not be back on for a day or two, so I will do it now, was that calling BJ unamerican is as extreme as me calling you guys unamerican for not being as critical on US government. Both are wrong, I was trying to show the other extreme of it.
[/quote]

i mentioned earlier on this thread, that i don't think that bj is "unamerican" or "anti-american", though honestly, both could be easily debated... but i said taht i think he has a passion for the fight against poverty and has simply made up his mind on what the best course of action should be... he isn't willing to hear other perspectives... he is not alone on this... but bj's problem is his bluntness and his passion has taken a hold of him imo...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]so they wanted closed minded people that believe in no economic freedom, welfare, social programs, abortion, and conspiracy theorists?[/quote]

[b]Let's see Rick .....

1. "Economic Freedom" - is this the America that says you can't economically pay for sex .... or the one that bars you from Economically buying Marijuana .... Does this Economic freedom that you are talking about favor placing addictive qualities in products without telling consumers or placing chemical plants near people and poisoning them without their knowledge? .... or just pushing products on children? Economic freedom is a word that has no meaning .... because everyone has made their own definition for it .... you define what it means to you .... and I'll tell you if I support it or not ......

2. I have never said I want "Abortions" or favor them ..... I have simply stated that I support the right for a woman to remove anything from her body at any point she chooses .... if upon extraction the baby is dead or not developed then it has yet to become a viable independently physiologically existing human being .... I don't support Late term abortions or doing anything to the fetus once extracted ..... And as for the founding fathers .... Actually abortion was LEGAL back then .... along with Slavery ...... [/b]


[quote]i would guess the founding fathers would want an inherited love for this country, and people that are willing to make america greater...[/quote]

[b]Would this be the country that has led to the death of millions of children through economic sanction or the one that has killed millions through secret CIA coups in the last few decades ? The founding fathers had no secret police, CIA, or FBI. The America I am willing to make greater is the one that lives in the minds of people who are committed to my sense of Justice and fairness. Washington never backed contras against Spain .... nor did he coup and install any dictators throughout the world ....[/b]

[Guest ONYX]

How did this thread morph into debating whether BJ hates america or not?

but for shits and giggles............

In a supposed free society where citizens have the right to believe what they
want and say what they want, how can any view be unamerican?

If BZ were American and he said that he cheered for insurgents defeating
American troops, would that make him unamerican?

If so, how is he more unamerican than a citizen who is a klan member
or nazi, who wishes harm to any black, jewish, or gay law abiding citizen?

are people like that american or unamerican?

is a pregnant woman seeking an abortion, unamerican?

what about the guy who blows up the clinic, killing the woman, the doctors,
and the nursing staff not to mention the fetus because he is pro-life, is he
unamerican?

so what if BJ did hate america?

does that make you more american than him?

[Jamie_B]

[quote]If BZ were American and he said that he cheered for insurgents defeating
American troops, would that make him unamerican?[/quote]

No it would put him on a "watch list".

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][size=4][b]UNAMERICAN = [img]http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/wiki/images/thumb/f/fc/250px-TrangBang.jpg[/img]




AMERICAN = [img]http://smartshadeofblue.brblog.com/archives/bansky.JPG[/img][/b][/size][/center]

[Nati Ice]

it is in my opinion that bj is clearly not a communist fanatic... he has merely explained that there are many socialist ideas that could and, in his opinion, [i]should[/i] be implemented in this country... that just makes him far-left, and in direct conflict with many of you. it in no way makes him a "pinko commie liberal faggot," like so many of the ignorant populace would have you believe.

now personally, i agree with much of what bj says... in theory. however, the implementation of many of his ideas i believe are not currently feasible...

i have mentioned this in previous posts, and this is exactly why i like john mccain in spite of his party affiliations... we have all recently shown a considerate lack of respect for one another. to be specific; i have yet to merely see a gentlemans disagreement within year+ i have been posting here

yea, we know... rick, backer, and old dont really care for many of the social program ideas the left throws out there... well guess what, bj, dan, smoov, etc. dont particularly care for the lack of help our nations govt has given its citizens.

it is in my opinion that we all need to stop with the questioning of national allegiances... bj has proven time and time again that he loves america yet possesses the critical eye to point out the gaping holes in its policies.

we all disagree, so fucking what... we should all be mature enough to stop resorting to name calling. bj disagrees with you, you disagree with bj, now tell him WHY hes WRONG, not WHY his ideas are those worthy of being ATTACKED on a personal level.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='221386' date='Feb 22 2006, 01:16 PM']it is in my opinion that bj is clearly not a communist fanatic... he has merely explained that there are many socialist ideas that could and, in his opinion, [i]should[/i] be implemented in this country... that just makes him far-left, and in direct conflict with many of you. it in no way makes him a "pinko commie liberal faggot," like so many of the ignorant populace would have you believe.

now personally, i agree with much of what bj says... in theory. however, the implementation of many of his ideas i believe are not currently feasible...

i have mentioned this in previous posts, and this is exactly why i like john mccain in spite of his party affiliations... we have all recently shown a considerate lack of respect for one another. to be specific; i have yet to merely see a gentlemans disagreement within year+ i have been posting here

yea, we know... rick, backer, and old dont really care for many of the social program ideas the left throws out there... well guess what, bj, dan, smoov, etc. dont particularly care for the lack of help our nations govt has given its citizens.

it is in my opinion that we all need to stop with the questioning of national allegiances... bj has proven time and time again that he loves america yet possesses the critical eye to point out the gaping holes in its policies.

we all disagree, so fucking what... we should all be mature enough to stop resorting to name calling. bj disagrees with you, you disagree with bj, now tell him WHY hes WRONG, not WHY his ideas are those worthy of being ATTACKED on a personal level.[/quote]

i agree 100% w/ all that is said...

- we are all going to disagree... get the fuck over it...

- we should use the "anti-american" saying as often as we should call people racist... as little as possible...

- most importantly, i agree w/ this statement the most: [i]now personally, i agree with much of what bj says... in theory. however, the implementation of many of his ideas i believe are not currently feasible...[/i]


good post nati

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='221386' date='Feb 22 2006, 01:16 PM']it is in my opinion that bj is clearly not a communist fanatic... he has merely explained that there are many socialist ideas that could and, in his opinion, [i]should[/i] be implemented in this country... that just makes him far-left, and in direct conflict with many of you. it in no way makes him a "pinko commie liberal faggot," like so many of the ignorant populace would have you believe.

now personally, i agree with much of what bj says... in theory. however, the implementation of many of his ideas i believe are not currently feasible...

i have mentioned this in previous posts, and this is exactly why i like john mccain in spite of his party affiliations... we have all recently shown a considerate lack of respect for one another. to be specific; i have yet to merely see a gentlemans disagreement within year+ i have been posting here

yea, we know... rick, backer, and old dont really care for many of the social program ideas the left throws out there... well guess what, bj, dan, smoov, etc. dont particularly care for the lack of help our nations govt has given its citizens.

it is in my opinion that we all need to stop with the questioning of national allegiances... bj has proven time and time again that he loves america yet possesses the critical eye to point out the gaping holes in its policies.

we all disagree, so fucking what... we should all be mature enough to stop resorting to name calling. bj disagrees with you, you disagree with bj, now tell him WHY hes WRONG, not WHY his ideas are those worthy of being ATTACKED on a personal level.[/quote]

Well said.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='221328' date='Feb 22 2006, 11:17 AM']I am giving BJ the benifit of the doubt ... Until I see him burning a flag he is still an American in my book.[/quote]

[b]Joker, I believe one of the most patriotic symbols that we have is a burning American flag .... to me it symbolizes a country that is so secure within it's principles that it understands they can't be harmed with a few matches ....[/b]


BJ, Sure you you can make that argueement or free speech issue..blah blah...blah. But to do so out of hatred for this nation in protest is just a lack of respect for those who have defended your right to do so.

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='The_Joker' post='221395' date='Feb 22 2006, 02:29 PM']I am giving BJ the benifit of the doubt ... Until I see him burning a flag he is still an American in my book.[/quote]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='221328' date='Feb 22 2006, 11:17 AM']Joker, I believe one of the most patriotic symbols that we have is a burning American flag .... to me it symbolizes a country that is so secure within it's principles that it understands they can't be harmed with a few matches ....[/quote]

[quote name='The_Joker' post='221395' date='Feb 22 2006, 02:29 PM']BJ, Sure you you can make that argueement or free speech issue..blah blah...blah. But to do so out of hatred for this nation in protest is just a lack of respect for those who have defended your right to do so.[/quote]



So I have the right to disrespect everybody else except for the people who defended my right to
disrespect everyone else?

[Nati Ice]

BZ - it sounds as though you have major issues with capitalism... and obviously a deep resentment towards America, but the problems I’m beginning to see in your argument all revolve around the fact that you are a self-loathing capitalist in sheep’s wool... Go ahead and bash the US, because for the most part I agree with you. Just don’t be surprised when you find out the objections you so openly display have come true... only to reach back to give you a nice smack on the face.

You go ahead and call America the most selfish nation in the world... because that may be rightfully so, but don’t you dare confuse security and capitalism with selfishness. Its easy to be an armchair quarterback... hell, that’s all I am anymore, but our real life and your philosophical views are in direct conflict. America is fat, but there is still widespread poverty and unemployment in our homeland. Yet, somehow, the good old U. S. of Mother Fucking A. still donates more money to foreign charities than the rest of the world COMBINED. Sure, it is in part because of our strong economy, but proportionally, we still donate FAR more money, time, and workers, than most developed nations. Yea, were bullies, but were bullies so that we can survive. Do I believe in Dubya, or his imperialist agenda? Hell no, but do I believe many of the practices we’ve put into place are necessary? You have better believe it.


Also, I’ve noticed your complaining about American car manufacturers? Ha, holy shit… what American car manufacturers? They’re all made in Mexico or Canada, hell, the only AMERICAN car manufacturer I can even think of is Toyota. Christ, they get there steel from my hometown (another reason I hate the Steelers, there’s not even any coke plants or steel manufacturers around Pitt, yet they try to stake claim to the hard-working middle-class steel makers of America title, fuck that shit… Armco pwns you).


Joker- you need to post in this forum more… I have yet to disagree with you on a single issue. Perhaps you can help provide more middle ground to our “discussions.”