Worst Decision in the Marvin Era?

[Phatcat]

Just to change it up a little bit, I (like many others) am highly disappointed and frustrated in the Defense. I can’t help but wonder if one of Marvin’s biggest mistakes has been the replacement of Leslie Frazier with our boy Bresnahan.

Here are the stats and fairly or unfairly, I’m only showing the 2nd season for each respective DC:

[u]2004 – DC Leslie Frazier[/u]
Total Defense: Rank-19th; Yds/Gm – 335, 1st Downs/Game – 18.5
Scoring Defense: Rank –21st, 23.2 pts/Game
Rush Defense: Rank – 26th,129 Yds/Game, 20+ yard runs given up - 9
Pass Defense: 13th, 206 Yds/Game,
Forced TO’s: 36
TO’s Returned for TD’s: 5

And to provide context here are the Offensive stats for 2004 team
(Carson’s 1st year as a starter):

Total Offense: Rank – 18th, 321 Yds/Game
Scoring Offense: Rank – 10th, 23.4 points/Game
TO’s (giveaways): 32
TO’s Returned for TD’s: 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[u]2006 – DC Chuck Bresnahan[/u]
Total Defense: Rank-30th; Yds/Gm – 355, 1st Downs/Game – 21.1
Scoring Defense: Rank –17st, 20.7 pts/Game
Rush Defense: Rank – 15th,116 Yds/Game, 20+ yard runs given up - 10
Pass Defense: 31st, 239 Yds/Game,
Forced TO’s: 31
TO’s Returned for TD: 1

And to provide context here are the Offensive stats for 2006 team:

Total Offense: Rank – 8th, 341 Yds/Game
Scoring Offense: Rank – 8th, 23.3 points/Game
TO’s (giveaways): 24
TO’s Returned for a TD: 1

What do you think? The scoring Defense argument does not hold water. The Bengals Offense in 2004 had 7 TO’s returned for Touchdowns as opposed to only 1 in 2006. This alone accounts for the difference in points allowed.

[Jason]

If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.

[Actium]

Drafting that bum Carson Palmer.

[Jamie_B]

The one that I think he may have leart from with the release of Simmons.

continuing to play your old guys when they are clearly done.

[Phatcat]

[quote name='Jason' post='450732' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:37 PM']If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.[/quote]

Agree that was a tough loss, but I also understand why it happened. But when you look at the 2004 Defense, it was pretty good comparitively speaking. Truly the only stat where the 2006 team was better, was in rushing defense. Every other statistical category, the 2004 defense was better.

[|Bengal Migration|]

The worst decision was keeping Tory James around for one more year in 2006. Everyone could see he'd lost a step, and couldn't/wouldn't tackle his own shadow by the end of 2005.

I think Jamie's right, cutting Simmons loose this year was a sign that Marvin has learned from his mistake, and won't hamstring the D again with an over the hill vet. If you're going to lose anyway, better to do it with rookies and get them some experience while you're at it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='450737' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:57 PM']The worst decision was keeping Tory James around for one more year in 2006. Everyone could see he'd lost a step, and couldn't/wouldn't tackle his own shadow by the end of 2005.

I think Jamie's right, cutting Simmons loose this year was a sign that Marvin has learned from his mistake, and won't hamstring the D again with an over the hill vet. [b]If you're going to lose anyway, better to do it with rookies and get them some experience while you're at it.[/b][/quote]


Bingo.

[Guest schotzee]

Phatcat ,I was going to say Bresnahan as well before I even read your first post

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

Id say is drafting Keiwan Ratliff. He hasnt done shit and has been a waste at that pick. I cant put Perry here becuase his is because of injuries. Ratliff is healthy and STILL cant contribute at all.



[quote name='Jason' post='450732' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:37 PM']If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.[/quote]
this led to us having the money to sign guys like Hardy, Clemons, JT, Tory. These guys may not have been studs for us, but these types of signings led to the change in the thought process of our team and gave us some veteran presence to put us in the right direction. Keeping TKO here would have been the Dillon situation all over again and it would have been 100% stupid to keep him around.

[Patton]

The Bengals need to learn when to say good bye to players. You want to say it when you expect a decline not after you see it.

[Guest schotzee]

[quote name='Jason' post='450732' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:37 PM']If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.[/quote]


[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='450743' date='Mar 5 2007, 01:03 PM']this led to us having the money to sign guys like Hardy, Clemons, JT, Tory. These guys may not have been studs for us, but these types of signings led to the change in the thought process of our team and gave us some veteran presence to put us in the right direction. Keeping TKO here would have been the Dillon situation all over again and it would have been 100% stupid to keep him around.[/quote]


Good answer and I agree with you.

[Jason]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='450743' date='Mar 5 2007, 01:03 PM']Id say is drafting Keiwan Ratliff. He hasnt done shit and has been a waste at that pick. I cant put Perry here becuase his is because of injuries. Ratliff is healthy and STILL cant contribute at all.
this led to us having the money to sign guys like [b]Hardy, Clemons, JT, Tory.[/b] These guys may not have been studs for us, but these types of signings led to the change in the thought process of our team and gave us some veteran presence to put us in the right direction. Keeping TKO here would have been the Dillon situation all over again and it would have been 100% stupid to keep him around.[/quote]

JT has been bashed his entire career here, as was Hardy. Clemons took a lot of crap too, and Tory had basically 1 good year. None of those guys were anywhere near as good a player as Takeo was. I also realize that part of the reason Takeo was let go was because he wanted to leave. But since he left we have only had one player with his fire.

I think we could have found a way to improve without letting him go.

[Inigo Montoya]

I'd like to re-do pretty much the entire 2004 draft. We had a ton of picks that year (2nd rounder for Dillon, compensatory 3rd rounder for losing Takeo, Neal, Hall, etc., and we traded down twice in the first round for extra fourth round picks), but we really don't have that much to show for it. Perry, Keiwan, Landon, Miller, Askew, Maurice Mann, Greg Brooks, Casey Bramlet. Not good, not good at all.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Jason' post='450732' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:37 PM']If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.[/quote]
we didnt so much as let him go as he wanted to go... you cant force a guy to be happy and stay. it was his decision to leave.

[Patton]

[quote name='Inigo Montoya' post='450762' date='Mar 5 2007, 01:31 PM']I'd like to re-do pretty much the entire 2004 draft. We had a ton of picks that year (2nd rounder for Dillon, compensatory 3rd rounder for losing Takeo, Neal, Hall, etc., and we traded down twice in the first round for extra fourth round picks), but we really don't have that much to show for it. Perry, Keiwan, Landon, Miller, Askew, Maurice Mann, Greg Brooks, Casey Bramlet. Not good, not good at all.[/quote]


That is exactly what I am talking about. 1 starter, 2 backup LBs and a glass RB.

[Guest Patmo]

[quote name='Jason' post='450732' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:37 PM']If anything, I think the worst decision was letting Takeo get away.[/quote]


Takeo signed a 36 million contract.He gave Buffal one good year.Was that worth 36 million ? In hindsight it was fortunate that Takeo wanted to leave.

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Patton' post='450767' date='Mar 5 2007, 01:38 PM']That is exactly what I am talking about. 1 starter, 2 backup LBs and a glass RB.[/quote]
im lost, if ur claiming 1 starter and 2 backup LBs who the fuck is the starter? ratliff? he couldnt be far from it.

Perry was a good pick and a guy we need, we cant help he gets hurt every play. Landon is a good pick, especially at the pick we got him. Caleb i dont think is much, but many people really like him as a top backup LB which isnt bad for round 3. Askew was a project that didnt happen, Brooks the coaches seem to love. The only disappointing pick is Ratliff imo.

[|Lucid|]

Firing Frazier and hiring Bresnahan would be my guess hands down.. Otherwise I could harp on a couple personel and draft decisions, but those all would have required a crystal ball..

I was frustrated with Frazier at the time, but now I wonder how much was just him learning the ropes of his new an challenging position. Moving from DB coach to DC isn't easy... Looking back, i think he was a little uhhhhh, brighter? More creative?

I don't know... I think I just don't have any faith in Chucky.

[Guest happyrid]

I think Marvin has made two bad decisions:

1. [b]Last year's drafting of low character/low potential guys was terrible. Specifically, AJ Nicholson and Frostee Rucker.[/b] Say what you want about Odell and Chris Henry, they were certainly high risk due to their character concerns. But, they also offered high reward. Henry is one of the 10 or 15 most talented WRs in the NFL and adds an explosive element as a deep threat and red zone weapon to the offense. Odell wreaks havoc all over the field blowing up ball carriers and creating turnovers. My point being, those were risky picks, but at least there is a potentially extremely high payoff if they work out. You were getting 1st round talent later in the draft because of a known risk.

With Rucker and Nicholson, you are taking a huge risk but there was no great potential payoff. Rucker had all the baggage of Chris Henry, but he doesn't have anywhere near the potential. We didn't get first round talent at a discount. We could have gotten a guy of equal talent (I wanted S Anthony Smith who the stealers took) without any of the character concerns. Same with Nicholson. Not only did the guy get suspended by FSU (which is hard to do) but he would have been a 5th round guy on talent alone because he ran 4.8+ in the 40. Those were two terrible picks that I am afraid were complete wastes.

2. [b]Not deciding what to do with Rudi when he was a RFA and drafting Chris Perry was a big mistake.[/b] Revisionist history may say that Perry was brought in to be a change of pace back, but that simply wasn't the case. Instead of signing Rudi to a long term deal at 3 million per year, the Bengals seemed like they were really unsure if he was the answer. After all, he was a 4th round guy with questionable speed who only had 9 career starts. Somewhat understandable that they weren't sold on him and wanted to have a potential replacement. Still, instead of locking him up long term before he blew up, he went on to sign a one year RFA deal, have a 1400 yard season (while Perry missed the whole year) and sign a big long term contract. Instead of having a good RB signed cheap (Rudi) and a good young CB (Chris Gamble taken one pick later), the Bengals ended up with a relatively expensive RB (Rudi), a first rounder spent on a backup RB and a huge hole at CB that would linger for years to come. Big mistake in my book.

[Guest Patmo]

[quote name='Lucid' post='450815' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:10 PM']Firing Frazier and hiring Bresnahan would be my guess hands down.. Otherwise I could harp on a couple personel and draft decisions, but those all would have required a crystal ball..

I was frustrated with Frazier at the time, but now I wonder how much was just him learning the ropes of his new an challenging position. Moving from DB coach to DC isn't easy... Looking back, i think he was a little uhhhhh, brighter? More creative?

I don't know... I think I just don't have any faith in Chucky.[/quote]

Leslie was a product of Buddy Ryan's defense.Blitz every play.Marvin didn't agree.So they parted ways.
Give Chuck one more year and then decide.

[Phatcat]

[quote name='Lucid' post='450815' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:10 PM']I was frustrated with Frazier at the time, but now I wonder how much was just him learning the ropes of his new an challenging position. Moving from DB coach to DC isn't easy... Looking back, i think he was a little uhhhhh, brighter? More creative?

I don't know... I think I just don't have any faith in Chucky.[/quote]

At the time I too was not happy with Frazier, and I looking back it was two fold. 1) the run defense. 2) High expectations with Marvin's experience and history. However, when I looked up these stats and in comparison I was very surprised. And the thing that surprised me the most was the 7 TDs returned off of Turnover's from our Offense. That is HUGE! And statistically the Defense was better when the offense was weaker and still coming into to its own.


[quote name='happyrid' post='450821' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:16 PM']I think Marvin has made two bad decisions:

2. [b]Not deciding what to do with Rudi when he was a RFA and drafting Chris Perry was a big mistake.[/b] Revisionist history may say that Perry was brought in to be a change of pace back, but that simply wasn't the case. Instead of signing Rudi to a long term deal at 3 million per year, the Bengals seemed like they were really unsure if he was the answer. After all, he was a 4th round guy with questionable speed who only had 9 career starts. Somewhat understandable that they weren't sold on him and wanted to have a potential replacement. Still, instead of locking him up long term before he blew up, he went on to sign a one year RFA deal, have a 1400 yard season (while Perry missed the whole year) and sign a big long term contract. Instead of having a good RB signed cheap (Rudi) and a good young CB (Chris Gamble taken one pick later), the Bengals ended up with a relatively expensive RB (Rudi), a first rounder spent on a backup RB and a huge hole at CB that would linger for years to come. Big mistake in my book.[/quote]

First excellent point on your first take with Rucker and Nicholson.

On the Rudi thing and drafting Perry, they had one season to evaluate Rudi (sharing time with Dillon when he was injured) before they drafted Perry. I think/wonder whether after 2003 the Bengals were not 100% that Rudi could repeat what he did in 2003. Hence they drafted Perry. If they were 100%, I think they would have been more aggressive. Just another take on what the Bengals could have been thinking.

[Guest happyrid]

[quote name='Phatcat' post='450836' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:29 PM']On the Rudi thing and drafting Perry, they had one season to evaluate Rudi (sharing time with Dillon when he was injured) before they drafted Perry. I think/wonder whether after 2003 the Bengals were not 100% that Rudi could repeat what he did in 2003. Hence they drafted Perry. If they were 100%, I think they would have been more aggressive. Just another take on what the Bengals could have been thinking.[/quote]


I agree 100% on your analysis of what they were thinking. It is an understandable mistake. But, I think it still qualifies as a mistake. They were being overly cautious and ended up making somewhat of a misevaluation of a guy who they had 3 years to see up close every day. Imagine this team if they had taken gotten Rudi for 2-3 million a year less and used that 1st rounder on a CB. We wouldn't have wasted pick 49 reaching for Kiewan Ratliff and could have potentially got a productive player with that pick (maybe a D lineman) plus had all that money for a good free agent.

[DanvilleBengal]

Hindsight is 20/20 unfourtunately.

Some of these pains have to be endured to learn how to win at all levels, from players, to coaches and management.

I would have to agree with the Rudi being unsigned, and us drafting Chris Perry. We blew a premium pick on a guy that can't stay healthy, and we did overpay Rudi a smidge instead of going on ahead and giving him the long-deal after he showed us that he could handle the load. The repercussions is that we would have had a pruductive defensive player at 22, and we would probably be in a better spot defensively.

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='DanvilleBengal' post='450864' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:58 PM']Hindsight is 20/20 unfourtunately.

Some of these pains have to be endured to learn how to win at all levels, from players, to coaches and management.

[b]I would have to agree with the Rudi being unsigned, and us drafting Chris Perry. We blew a premium pick on a guy that can't stay healthy, and we did overpay Rudi a smidge instead of going on ahead and giving him the long-deal after he showed us that he could handle the load. The repercussions is that we would have had a pruductive defensive player at 22, and we would probably be in a better spot defensively.[/b][/quote]
we need perry either way. rudi just isnt that good and isnt a RB for a single back offense. He needs a speed back with him.

[Phatcat]

[quote name='DanvilleBengal' post='450864' date='Mar 5 2007, 02:58 PM']Hindsight is 20/20 unfourtunately.

Some of these pains have to be endured to learn how to win at all levels, from players, to coaches and management.[/quote]
I agree this is a hindsite is 20/20 type thread. And learning from history is the best way to win in anything.

Turning the topic a little bit from what was Marvin's biggest mistake to what has been his most valuable lessons as a HC and I would point to this past year:

1) Off season issues
2) Colapse down the stretch run for the playoffs

I think Marvin gets IT and this team will be better because of IT.