Lawman Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581662' date='Oct 30 2007, 09:01 AM']Belief, unfortunately, doesn't make it true.[/quote] Correct [quote]I feel bad for people who disillusion themselves, thats why I try to show them the error in their thinking.[/quote] Conversely as do I. The question is: Why should I believe in God? Reasoning: I cannot believe in God because there is not enough convincing evidence. Has [b]ALL[/b] of the evidence been brought forth and carefully measures and weighed? Are you examining the evidence objectively? Is your criteria for proof of God's existence realistic? I have put forth these questions because, I myself was asked to answer them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanatical Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Which god are we talking about? Allah, Vishnu, Marduk, Zeus? All these gods claim dominion over everything. Obviously, all cannot do this. One must be made up. But if one god is made up, why not all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581659' date='Oct 30 2007, 08:58 AM']Any way he wanted to. [/quote] And he did, and we have it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='581699' date='Oct 30 2007, 10:05 AM']Correct Conversely as do I. The question is: Why should I believe in God? Reasoning: I cannot believe in God because there is not enough convincing evidence. Has [b]ALL[/b] of the evidence been brought forth and carefully measures and weighed? Are you examining the evidence objectively? Is your criteria for proof of God's existence realistic? I have put forth these questions because, I myself was asked to answer them.[/quote] No, and if someone shows me convincing evidence of a God existing, I'll become a theist. But since I don't see this evidence, I'm an atheist by default. So my question is why would I go to hell for remaining an atheist, if evidence is never presented? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581750' date='Oct 30 2007, 11:11 AM']And he did, and we have it now. [/quote] Yes, and I think you are starting to understand why questioning such existence is pointless. God made the universe, according to you, yet God had no impetus or law making him do so. He did so because HE IS WHO HE IS, something that he has no control over. Nature of Universe <-- Nature of God <-- ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581771' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:07 PM']Yes, and I think you are starting to understand why questioning such existence is pointless. God made the universe, according to you, yet God had no impetus or law making him do so. He did so because HE IS WHO HE IS, something that he has no control over. Nature of Universe <-- Nature of God <-- ?[/quote] I never questioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581774' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:09 PM']I never questioned it. [/quote] No, you didn't. Would you still have a problem with me saying that the universe is in essence originless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581779' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:15 PM']No, you didn't. Would you still have a problem with me saying that the universe is in essence originless?[/quote] I'd disagree with it, if thats what your asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581780' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:16 PM']I'd disagree with it, if thats what your asking.[/quote] But if you agree that God's existence is uncaused, then isn't the universe's existence also uncaused if God created the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581791' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:27 PM']But if you agree that God's existence is uncaused, then isn't the universe's existence also uncaused if God created the universe?[/quote] Your coupling the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581793' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:28 PM']Your coupling the two.[/quote] Yes, because aren't they connected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581795' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:32 PM']Yes, because aren't they connected?[/quote] In a cause and effect manner yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581828' date='Oct 30 2007, 02:21 PM']In a cause and effect manner yes.[/quote] So if God is causeless, isn't the universe causeless as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581842' date='Oct 30 2007, 02:40 PM']So if God is causeless, isn't the universe causeless as well?[/quote] One has always existed, the other has not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanatical Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 ^^ yeah, I think most can agree on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Fanatical' post='581855' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:22 PM']^^ yeah, I think most can agree on that[/quote] By the way, can you not see the arrogance in that comment that religous folks are so often accused of? Thats why I rarely participate in these discussions, as folks hold true to what they want to hold true to reguardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581791' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:27 PM']But if you agree that God's existence is uncaused, then isn't the universe's existence also uncaused if God created the universe?[/quote] [url="http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/ethic11.txt"]According to some people[/url], whom I think have devoted significant time to the topic, this proposition is constructed poorly. It would be more consistent to assert that if God were uncaused, then the universe would not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581846' date='Oct 30 2007, 02:53 PM']One has always existed, the other has not.[/quote] Now, why has God always existed? The answer is because there is no other way. God exists(I'm speaking hypothetically), there is no way he cannot. Therefore, he is uncaused. He has no reason. He has no purpose but what he chooses to make. BUT WHAT DECISIONS HE MAKES SHOW US HIS NATURE, AND HE CANNOT CONTROL HIS NATURE. HE IS WHO HE IS. THE UNDERLYING RULES OF HIS OWN EXISTENCE LIMIT HIS STRENGTH, AS HE CANNOT CHANGE WHO HE IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581895' date='Oct 30 2007, 06:52 PM']Now, why has God always existed? The answer is because there is no other way. God exists(I'm speaking hypothetically), there is no way he cannot. Therefore, he is uncaused. He has no reason. He has no purpose but what he chooses to make. BUT WHAT DECISIONS HE MAKES SHOW US HIS NATURE, AND HE CANNOT CONTROL HIS NATURE. HE IS WHO HE IS. THE UNDERLYING RULES OF HIS OWN EXISTENCE LIMIT HIS STRENGTH, AS HE CANNOT CHANGE WHO HE IS.[/quote] Change who he is, why? What purpose does it serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581899' date='Oct 30 2007, 06:57 PM']Change who he is, why? What purpose does it serve?[/quote] It's not a question of would he, its a question of could he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581903' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:01 PM']It's not a question of would he, its a question of could he.[/quote] Your assumption is no, why? What decisions he makes show his nature about that decision, why do you presume to know his entire nature? I cant say that I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581903' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:01 PM']It's not a question of would he, its a question of could he.[/quote] This is a wonderful question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted October 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='581913' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:17 PM']Your assumption is no, why? What decisions he makes show his nature about that decision, why do you presume to know his entire nature? I cant say that I do.[/quote] Do we know his nature? No. Does he have a nature? Yes. And this is very important. It tells us that his existence is just as fragile(or solid) as ours. If I were to go and ask God right now why he existed, he would say something like "Silly, I just do." So what is the problem with me saying that about our existence, with or without a god, if all of life really boils down to the fact that we exist with no reason behind it? [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='581915' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:18 PM']This is a wonderful question![/quote] I cant tell if your being sarcastic or not, but that picture of a monkey is leading me towards sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='581920' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:23 PM']Do we know his nature? No. Does he have a nature? Yes. And this is very important. It tells us that his existence is just as fragile(or solid) as ours. [color="#FF0000"]If I were to go and ask God right now why he existed, he would say something like "Silly, I just do." [/color]So what is the problem with me saying that about our existence, with or without a god, if all of life really boils down to the fact that we exist with no reason behind it? I cant tell if your being sarcastic or not, but that picture of a monkey is leading me towards sarcasm.[/quote] Now were getting somewhere. Why is his reason for existance the same as ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote]Therefore, he is uncaused. He has no reason. He has no purpose but what he chooses to make[/quote] God's existence (in Christianity) is not an event, but a [u]state[/u]. Psalm 90:2 says that God is God without a beginning. [i]"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." [/i] This means that God is uncaused and apparently we agree on this notion. Being separate from the universe, which was caused to be, God would not be subject to the laws of the universe since he exists independent of the universe and its laws. This would mean that entropy need not be required of the uncaused cause and he is not subjected to time as we know it. [quote]BUT WHAT DECISIONS HE MAKES SHOW US HIS NATURE, AND HE CANNOT CONTROL HIS NATURE. HE IS WHO HE IS. [u]THE UNDERLYING RULES OF HIS OWN EXISTENCE LIMIT HIS STRENGTH, AS HE CANNOT CHANGE WHO HE IS[/u].[/quote] [i]Can God make a rock so big he can't pick it up?[/i] The argument goes that if he can make a rock so big he can't pick it up, then he isn't omnipotent either. Therefore God does not exist. The problem is that the argument omits some crucial information and draws an inaccurate conclusion. What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of his nature; it is part of his nature. God has a nature and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else. The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature. But, not being able to do this does not mean he is not God nor that he is not omnipotent. [u]Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable[/u], but the ability to do anything consistent with his nature and consistent with his desire within the realm of his unlimited and universal power which we do not possess. This does not mean he can violate His own nature. If he did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory. [b]If God were self contradictory, he would not be true[/b]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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