Why should I believe in God?

[xamination]

I know I don't post that much here, but I visit often and enjoy reading the threads here and trying not to get too depressed about my Bengals.
Anywho, I was reading this "Christianity vs. Islam" thread, and I found everything in it to be very silly. Saying one religion is better or more true than another is one thing; pretending to know that you are correct is another.
But my question is slightly off topic: why should I, or anyone, believe in a God? If God were to come down and talk to me, or I experienced something miraculous, that would be one thing. But why should I believe in ANY god, much less the Christian or Muslim one? If there is no reason, then why would God punish me for eternity for not doing so?

[-GoBengals-]

whether god is real or not will never be known. many of the acts in religion, like prayer, are also self motivating, if i have a crashing relationship, and sit down each night for a month, and ask god for help with that relationship, to be stronger in this are or that area and work past tihs issue and that issue. your forcing it into yourself as well, then who is to say if you were helped by another power or your own self motivation.

until i as well past 18 i didnt believe in god at all. many things changed that. occasionally i question it scientifically, but i am always back into some sort of faith in the end.

i cant stand organized religion, catholic verse methodist, vs baptist all pisses me off, i find everyone in the world picking and choosing thier religion based on their own person preferences to be not only comical but hypocritical to the entire concept of god in the first place.

[claptonrocks]

Faith in a higher power is simple..
You can choose to believe and put your faith into it or you
can abstain and choose to think its just a cosmic jungle that amounts to nothing in the end.
I choose to believe that there is something in afterlife...
Maybe Ill be wrong but then again what have I to lose by keeping the faith while Im still alive?
Its a source of strength for some....its all your own choosing.
Whatever gets you thru the night...

[Jamie_B]

I think the better question is how could you not? Throw out any specific dogma and look at the world purley from a scientifc pov and you can see how it is so perfect in order and orginization ect, and you have to ask yourself, how could any of this be random?

[xamination]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='580814' date='Oct 28 2007, 11:48 PM']whether god is real or not will never be known. many of the acts in religion, like prayer, are also self motivating, if i have a crashing relationship, and sit down each night for a month, and ask god for help with that relationship, to be stronger in this are or that area and work past tihs issue and that issue. your forcing it into yourself as well, then who is to say if you were helped by another power or your own self motivation.

until i as well past 18 i didnt believe in god at all. many things changed that. occasionally i question it scientifically, but i am always back into some sort of faith in the end.

i cant stand organized religion, catholic verse methodist, vs baptist all pisses me off, i find everyone in the world picking and choosing thier religion based on their own person preferences to be not only comical but hypocritical to the entire concept of god in the first place.[/quote]
So why do you believe in God now? What made you feel compelled to return to Christianity?

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='580896' date='Oct 29 2007, 06:27 AM']I think the better question is how could you not? Throw out any specific dogma and look at the world purley from a scientifc pov and you can see how it is so perfect in order and orginization ect, and you have to ask yourself, how could any of this be random?[/quote]
What do you mean by perfect? Yes, we say that everything is "perfect", but wouldn't we say that anyways no matter the nature of the universe? Isn't that just like saying the Earth is perfect for humans, so it must be from God?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='580911' date='Oct 29 2007, 07:29 AM']What do you mean by perfect? Yes, we say that everything is "perfect", but wouldn't we say that anyways no matter the nature of the universe? Isn't that just like saying the Earth is perfect for humans, so it must be from God?[/quote]


Its not just a perfect earth though is it? I mean even the nature of how things work together in the universe, the order really makes me have a hard time believing any of it is random.

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='580943' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:37 AM']Its not just a perfect earth though is it? I mean even the nature of how things work together in the universe, the order really makes me have a hard time believing any of it is random.[/quote]
Statistically speaking, in this universe, life will exist on at least one planet, if not hundreds. Earth is one of these planets. So what makes Earth special, besides the fact that YOU are on it?
As for the universe, some say that the universe is specifically hard-wired for life to exist - if constants and laws were slightly different, the universe could not support life as we know it. There are two responses to this. First, unless we were to make model universes, we cannot truly say how the universe would appear with different constants - it would take fundamental changes in the nature of the universe to change these constants, and this would have unseen, adverse effects.
Second, brane theory tells us there are multiple universes out there, all very different in nature. So, just like planets, certain universes have life, while others do not. What makes ours special?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='580973' date='Oct 29 2007, 09:15 AM']Statistically speaking, in this universe, life will exist on at least one planet, if not hundreds. Earth is one of these planets. So what makes Earth special, besides the fact that YOU are on it?
As for the universe, some say that the universe is specifically hard-wired for life to exist - if constants and laws were slightly different, the universe could not support life as we know it. There are two responses to this. First, unless we were to make model universes, we cannot truly say how the universe would appear with different constants - it would take fundamental changes in the nature of the universe to change these constants, and this would have unseen, adverse effects.
Second, brane theory tells us there are multiple universes out there, all very different in nature. So, just like planets, certain universes have life, while others do not. What makes ours special?[/quote]


Earth really isnt all that special, but thats not really my point. If constants and laws were slightly different things wouldnt exist, and that is exactly my point in saying its all too perfect to be random. Brane theory I would imagine would still have laws and constants working together, and I'd imagine would be pretty perfect as well.

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='580984' date='Oct 29 2007, 09:26 AM']Earth really isnt all that special, but thats not really my point. If constants and laws were slightly different things wouldnt exist, and that is exactly my point in saying its all too perfect to be random. Brane theory I would imagine would still have laws and constants working together, and I'd imagine would be pretty perfect as well.[/quote]
Ah, I think I know what you are getting at... "Why are things the way they are?" Your answer would be God. My answer would be there is no answer. For you to say that God is the reason for the way things are, you are not investigating why God is the way he is. If God created the universe as we see it, why did he do it in that fashion?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='581126' date='Oct 29 2007, 12:04 PM']Ah, I think I know what you are getting at... "Why are things the way they are?" Your answer would be God. My answer would be there is no answer. For you to say that God is the reason for the way things are, you are not investigating why God is the way he is. If God created the universe as we see it, why did he do it in that fashion?[/quote]


How could there be no answer? Why does everything work so perfectly together that there is no answer? Does that really make sence to you? What other fashion would he create it in?

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='581143' date='Oct 29 2007, 12:16 PM']How could there be no answer? Why does everything work so perfectly together that there is no answer? Does that really make sence to you? What other fashion would he create it in?[/quote]
Let me slow down.

First, we assume that all things have a reason. Earth is in orbit around the sun because of gravity. Gravity exists because of reason A. Reason A exists because of Reason B. Reason B leads to Reason C, and so on. However, this cannot continue infinitely, as there are a few laws and constants that our entire universe is based upon. These variables, IMO, are uncaused. You say they are the result of God.

However, God is just another chain of reason. Why did God make the universe the way he did? This reason has its own reason, and we hit the chain again. This time, it is not the universe that is uncaused, but God.

This should be a scary thought to you - God has no control of who he actually is. God's nature, if he exists, is beyond his control.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='581200' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:23 PM']Let me slow down.

First, we assume that all things have a reason. Earth is in orbit around the sun because of gravity. Gravity exists because of reason A. Reason A exists because of Reason B. Reason B leads to Reason C, and so on. However, this cannot continue infinitely, as there are a few laws and constants that our entire universe is based upon. These variables, IMO, are uncaused. You say they are the result of God.

However, God is just another chain of reason. Why did God make the universe the way he did? This reason has its own reason, and we hit the chain again. This time, it is not the universe that is uncaused, but God.

This should be a scary thought to you - God has no control of who he actually is. God's nature, if he exists, is beyond his control.[/quote]


Its not scarry it's absurd, and I dont mean that to offend. But thats like saying a car works because the parts were made, but eventually you get down to the where did the chemistry come from to make those parts? Laws of nature. A law doesnt exist because something else made it possible, it exists peroid. Gravity exists because of the earth's roation, but what makes the earth rotate? Eventually you reduce it to something you cant reduce any further and your left with why does it work that way that allows for everything else to exist and work they way it does, and not just for that one specific part but for other parts to work that way and work together. God's nature is less about the control and more about the perfection of the design.

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='581211' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:32 PM']Its not scarry it's absurd, and I dont mean that to offend. But thats like saying a car works because the parts were made, but eventually you get down to the where did the chemistry come from to make those parts? Laws of nature. A law doesnt exist because something else made it possible, it exists peroid. Gravity exists because of the earth's roation, but what makes the earth rotate? Eventually you reduce it to something you cant reduce any further and your left with why does it work that way that allows for everything else to exist and work they way it does, and not just for that one specific part but for other parts to work that way and work together. God's nature is less about the control and more about the perfection of the design.[/quote]

First, the reason the Earth has gravity is because it has mass, but as to why gravity and mass relate is beyond me.

Second, I understand what you are saying, I think. The laws of nature, uncaused, work all together because of God. Maybe. But why did God make it that way? Why is the speed of light, for example, the value c? Why not something else? He is God, so he could have chosen any value he wished. Why c?

The answer is there is no reason, which is what I am driving at. The universe, and if God exists he is included as well, is uncaused. We are because... there is no because. We just are.

But back to the topic, why should I believe in a God, when there seems no reason for me to?

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='xamination' post='580909' date='Oct 29 2007, 07:27 AM']So why do you believe in God now? What made you feel compelled to return to Christianity?[/quote]

i had a terrible personal situation i had to deal with, had me torn to shreds, talked with a close friend over and over, went to church a few times, got saved, and the most bizzare unexplainable pouring of emotion, like so much negativity and animosity and sorrow seems to pour out of me, from head to toe i just felt cleansed, it was surreal, and changed a LOT of things i was doing in life that led me to that bad of a place.



i think many people "choose" to believe simply because life is pointless without it, feelings, love, happiness, sadness, laws, morality, etc, is all pointless without the promise of heaven or threat of hell.


whats wrong with being a horrible person if there are no consequences?

and man was i a horrible person.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='581233' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:53 PM']i had a terrible personal situation i had to deal with, had me torn to shreds, talked with a close friend over and over, went to church a few times, got saved, and the most bizzare unexplainable pouring of emotion, like so much negativity and animosity and sorrow seems to pour out of me, from head to toe i just felt cleansed, it was surreal, and changed a LOT of things i was doing in life that led me to that bad of a place.[/quote]


So you voted T.J. for the Pro-Bowl? Well done man, it's an important first step.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='581230' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:48 PM']First, the reason the Earth has gravity is because it has mass, but as to why gravity and mass relate is beyond me.

Second, I understand what you are saying, I think. The laws of nature, uncaused, work all together because of God. Maybe. But why did God make it that way? Why is the speed of light, for example, the value c? Why not something else? He is God, so he could have chosen any value he wished. Why c?

The answer is there is no reason, which is what I am driving at. The universe, and if God exists he is included as well, is uncaused. We are because... there is no because. We just are.

But back to the topic, why should I believe in a God, when there seems no reason for me to?[/quote]


Its not so much why not something other than c, to me its why c? And why does c relate to the things it relates to? (If he didnt choose c then nothing else works the way it is designed with each other.) Its all to perfect for me to believe its just random and "we are just because", and I dont know how others can accept that as a good answer, espessally those who champion science.

Your asking why should you believe in a dogma is what I think your asking. Not so much God, because I think ive provided a answer, maybe not one you agree with or like, but it fits.

As to why you should believe in a dogma, that's a personal choice that one chooses. Most choose their dogma because they were raised with it in their culture, for me that is probabally in part true, but I have also studied other faiths and the "big 3" so to speak all agree there was a Jesus, they dont agree on his divinity, but they all agree of his existance, so then I take his word on who he was based on what he said about it. That's faith.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='581233' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:53 PM'][color="#FF0000"]i had a terrible personal situation i had to deal with, had me torn to shreds, talked with a close friend over and over, went to church a few times, got saved, and the most bizzare unexplainable pouring of emotion, like so much negativity and animosity and sorrow seems to pour out of me, from head to toe i just felt cleansed, it was surreal, and changed a LOT of things i was doing in life that led me to that bad of a place. [/color]


i think many people "choose" to believe simply because life is pointless without it, feelings, love, happiness, sadness, laws, morality, etc, is all pointless without the promise of heaven or threat of hell.


whats wrong with being a horrible person if there are no consequences?

and man was i a horrible person.[/quote]


Thats the experice for ALOT of people, its not explainable unless you experience it. Ive seen alcholics put down alchohol, drug users get clean ect ect...

My first roomate I ever had went through rehab many times, and was at the point the he would sift nyquil through a piece of bread to get his fix in rehab, when he got saved he completely quit cold turkey and had zero desire for it anymore. Being that alchohol is partly a chemical dependency as I understand it, how can that even be explained?

[Jamie_B]

To further expand.

I work with computers so Ill use this example.

You ask why C.

Well if Im building a computer and I need to be able for it to work so that I can see things on my monitor Ill get a video card, what your saying is why wouldnt I just use a sound card for my monitor? Why would I do that, it makes no sence? Its not what it was designed to do.

Follow?

[SINcinnati513]

Jamie, it sounds to me like you are unknowingly arguing for evolution. Our environment is not perfectly suited for us, and we are not perfectly suited for our environment. Nothing is so perfect that it points to a creator. But we are well enough suited for this environment to survive and do it very well. But what's up with our appendix, tail bone, pinky toe, skin cancer, eye problems, genetic mutations? What about these flash floods, wild fires, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, epidemics. We have adapted/evolved to make what we have work for us. It's not the other way around.

As far as things being completely random, whatever happened only had to happen ONE time. That's it. ONE time was all it took and billions of years took that ONE random thing and slowly altered it. Change is still happening today and will happen for as long as time exists.

It's somewhat difficult to scientifically disprove something that doesn't exist. But look at what we can prove with our fossils, evolution, and cosmos. It definitely makes the existence of a god much more improbable.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='SINcinnati513' post='581258' date='Oct 29 2007, 02:26 PM']Jamie, it sounds to me like you are unknowingly arguing for evolution. Our environment is not perfectly suited for us, and we are not perfectly suited for our environment. Nothing is so perfect that it points to a creator. But we are well enough suited for this environment to survive and do it very well. But what's up with our appendix, tail bone, pinky toe, skin cancer, eye problems, genetic mutations? What about these flash floods, wild fires, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, epidemics. We have adapted/evolved to make what we have work for us. It's not the other way around.

As far as things being completely random, whatever happened only had to happen ONE time. That's it. ONE time was all it took and billions of years took that ONE random thing and slowly altered it. Change is still happening today and will happen for as long as time exists.

It's somewhat difficult to scientifically disprove something that doesn't exist. But look at what we can prove with our fossils, evolution, and cosmos. It definitely makes the existence of a god much more improbable.[/quote]


Ah but even the adaptation has rules and reasons does it not? The adaptions have to be explained do they not? You cant say well one day it was A and the next B without some sort of rules for how A got to B right (this is Darwin's black box.)? Even if that thing that happened one time happned, there had to be rules for how it progressed from there, but also rules that allowed it to happen in the first place. It's all too perfect.

If your wanting to advocate science, and your answer is "just because", as a scientist wouldnt that drive you nuts? (Because that's faith, not science)

[SINcinnati513]

But who created the creator?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='SINcinnati513' post='581274' date='Oct 29 2007, 02:42 PM']But who created the creator?[/quote]


What if the creator always existed (because were trying to comprehend him in space and time here)? And there was no creator for him. Or perhaps that explination is so far beyond our simple understanding that we cant comprehend it.

[SINcinnati513]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='581264' date='Oct 29 2007, 02:32 PM']Ah but even the adaptation has rules and reasons does it not? The adaptions have to be explained do they not? You cant say well one day it was A and the next B without some sort of rules for how A got to B right? Even if that thing that happened one time happned, there had to be rules for how it progressed from there, but also rules that allowed it to happen in the first place. It's all too perfect.

If your wanting to advocate science, and your answer is "just because", as a scientist wouldnt that drive you nuts? (Because that's faith, not science)[/quote]


But we do have a reason for why things changed. It's called time. And over time, what did not work simply didn't work. The unsuccessful died out. But the successful lived on and adapted to its surrounding, its change of climate, its food sources, its predators.

So these rules you talk of. Have they always existed or did someone create them? And what rules were created and by whom for this creator to create?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='SINcinnati513' post='581281' date='Oct 29 2007, 02:49 PM']But we do have a reason for why things changed. It's called time. And over time, what did not work simply didn't work. The unsuccessful died out. But the successful lived on and adapted to its surrounding, its change of climate, its food sources, its predators.

So these rules you talk of. Have they always existed or did someone create them? And what rules were created and by whom for this creator to create?[/quote]


Ah but again, even the things that didnt work eventually did, why? Why did it work that one time as opposed to any other? Was there some sort of memory built in that said "hey dummy that thing you just tried didnt work last time, try this" and if so are we not a co-creator in the design?

As far as the creation of the rules and who created them, wouldnt that be God.