Why should I believe in God?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582430' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:04 PM']Thanks for the catch. I was trying to run two idea's into one. God resides outside the law of entropy
and our concept of time. I should have seperated them.

Hopefully, the follow up linear timeline explanation cleared this up.[/quote]
This doesn't help me.

A linear timeline implies a beginning and an end.

If God has been around for all time, yet created the linear timeline...

What was he doing before the creation of the linear timeline and when was he doing it and for how long was he doing it and why did it take him so long to do whatever it was he was doing before he created time?

Once again, time is a function of the universe we have defined. If the universe's laws don't apply to God, time doesn't apply just like entropy doesn't apply.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582440' date='Oct 31 2007, 05:32 PM']This doesn't help me.

A linear timeline implies a beginning and an end.

If God has been around for all time, yet created the linear timeline...

[color="#FF0000"]What was he doing before the creation of the linear timeline and when was he doing it and for how long was he doing it and why did it take him so long to do whatever it was he was doing before he created time?[/color]

Once again, time is a function of the universe we have defined. If the universe's laws don't apply to God, time doesn't apply just like entropy doesn't apply.[/quote]


Playing Halo?

[xamination]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582440' date='Oct 31 2007, 05:32 PM']This doesn't help me.

A linear timeline implies a beginning and an end.

If God has been around for all time, yet created the linear timeline...

What was he doing before the creation of the linear timeline and when was he doing it and for how long was he doing it and why did it take him so long to do whatever it was he was doing before he created time?

Once again, time is a function of the universe we have defined. If the universe's laws don't apply to God, time doesn't apply just like entropy doesn't apply.[/quote]
He's right. If something is timeless, he cannot act in any sense of the word - acting means that there is also inaction, and doing these two things requires time.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='582443' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:37 PM']Playing Halo?


[/quote]
Possibly waiting for the Beta Version to load along with Master Chief?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582440' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:32 PM']This doesn't help me.

A linear timeline implies a beginning and an end.

If God has been around for all time, yet created the linear timeline...

What was he doing before the creation of the linear timeline and when was he doing it and for how long was he doing it and why did it take him so long to do whatever it was he was doing before he created time?

Once again, time is a function of the universe we have defined. If the universe's laws don't apply to God, time doesn't apply just like entropy doesn't apply.[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]Ok, I'll play Devil's Advocate.

Loyal, what if the linear timeline is similar to a line in Geometry? A two dimensional object traveling in a single plane in two opposite directions infinitely into the past and future. No beginning and no end. Someone had to create it.
[/color]

[color="#0000FF"]Loyal, you make an excellent argument...if we were discussing Geometry or Physics. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//30.gif[/img] We're discussing a linear timeline as it relates to God. In that setting, time most definitely has a beginning (Genesis) and an end (Book of Revelations.) Take your stupid ass back to GA. Do they let dumbasses like you drive in Plains, GA?[/color]

[color="#FF0000"]Loyal, actually we drive in automobiles and fly in planes. Do you drive in planes where you're from, asshole. [/color]

[Homer_Rice]

sub specie aeternitatis

natura naturans

natura naturata

[Lawman]

[quote]Once again, time is a function of the universe we have defined.[/quote]

Correct

[quote]If the universe's laws don't apply to God, [u]time doesn't apply just like entropy doesn't apply[/u].[/quote]

Great, your getting it.


The question appropriattely phrased: "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else."
The christian God never came into existence; he always was as we see in Psalms 90.2

[i]Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even [b]from everlasting to everlasting[/b], thou art God[/i]

The next question posed: "But who created God?" He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought [b]time[/b], space, and matter into existence.
Since God is [b]before[/b] space, [b]time[/b], and matter, the issue of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuality"]causality[/url] does not apply to Him.

Is the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument"]Cosmological Argument[/url] speculative, yes for those seeking hard evidence. But, not for
christianity which holds it's belief (faith) in the scriptures.

[Lawman]

[quote name='xamination' post='582510' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:24 PM']He's right. If something is timeless, he cannot act in any sense of the word - acting means that there is also inaction, and doing these two things requires time.[/quote]

[quote]xamination
I am showing you that God's nature is out of his control. I am trying to show you [u]why his nature is what it is[/u]. [b]If you would like to know what the answer is, just ask[/b].[/quote]


[quote]Lawman
Yes, please do and thanks in advance.[/quote]

Was I suppose to ask a second time

[Lawman]

[quote]We're discussing a [u]linear timeline [/u]as it relates to [u]God.[/u][/quote]

The later created the first.

[quote]In that setting, time most definitely has a [u]beginning (Genesis)[/u] and an [u]end (Book of Revelations)[/u].[/quote]

Genesis: The start of the linear timeline; as we know it.

Revelations: Not the end, but the beginning.

[Lawman]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='582294' date='Oct 31 2007, 12:51 PM']Like the Buddha once said, (paraphrased and probably chopped up) why worry about such things as what is it like once you pass and is there a this and is there a that. Be concerned with living here. Some questions can really never be answered and humans do not have the capacity to understand the answers anyway.[/quote]

Buddha's tomb occupied, Jesus's tomb empty.

[xamination]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582674' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:27 AM']Was I suppose to ask a second time [/quote]
Wow, I was SURE I replied to this. Apparently I didn't. Ok, I'll do it again.

You want to know why God is God. What is the order behind the universe? Why are things the way there are? Why is there something instead of nothing?
There is an answer, and it has a name.
It is the Tao.

[Lawman]

[quote]Homer_Rice
Mostly what I cannot accept is your convoluted, contradictory, and ethically borderline approach to the presentation of your views[/quote].

So you say.

What you refer as convoluted, admittingly I will add to a topic, with the intent of opening doors for others to see and explore for themselves.

On this subject, my post have been consistantly the same as within other threads. Meaning my position has not changed.

On ethically borderline approach; I can only take this as reference towards the use of CARM and the research done by others.
First of all, I have presented this upfront. Where do you get your references? You went to college, you researched and studied material of others.
What's the difference. When you present an argument; your answer must have derived form variant sources and or life experience.

Our approach's are different, so what? I can only present something which I hold to be true. Does it mean that what I post is true; that is left up for discussion and
if I can see proof to the contrary of what I believe, then I can change my mind. Some things I once percieved as being true, as a results of discussions on here, I have since
altered my thinking. While other things have galvanized my beliefs.

I percieve that some of what I post are difficult to refute, which leads to personal attacks and attempts of character assasination in an effort to minimize ones credibility.
Truely sad and clear sign of weakness.

I wonder what Beakers been up to.

[Lawman]

[quote name='xamination' post='582691' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:39 AM']Wow, I was SURE I replied to this. Apparently I didn't. Ok, I'll do it again.

You want to know why God is God. What is the order behind the universe? Why are things the way there are? Why is there something instead of nothing?
There is an answer, and it has a name.
It is the Tao.[/quote]

[img]http://www.bodychannel.net/images/yy_opposition.jpg[/img]

Ironically, last night I caught a glimpse of a TV which you may of heard; "Phenom".

The contestant had a female guest come up on stage age and draw an image of whatever came to mind; he had her change her idea twice before settling on the last image.

As she was drawing, he went to a video piece, he claims was shot 1 month prior. In the piece, he was sitting in a chair at a Tatoo parlor; he was having a tatoo done on his right arm.

When the lady displayed her drawing, it was of the Yin yang symbol. He exposed his tatoo and it was the same.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582673' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:22 AM']Is the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument"]Cosmological Argument[/url] speculative, yes for those seeking hard evidence. But, not for
christianity which holds it's belief (faith) in the scriptures.[/quote]
This kind of sounds familiar.

Oh, I know where I read something similar.

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582292' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:44 AM']When you ask, "Why should I believe in God?" I assume you want an explanation. You're never going to get one.
Instead of asking, "Why should I believe in God?" maybe a better question would be, "Why should I have Faith?"
In my opinion, it is difficult to believe in God without first making a choice to have [i]faith in God[/i], rather than believing an [i]explanation of God[/i].[/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582731' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:04 AM']This kind of sounds familiar.

Oh, I know where I read something similar.[/quote]


Yes, there is a relationship connecting the two.

[Lawman]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582592' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:36 PM']Possibly waiting for the Beta Version to load along with Master Chief?[/quote]

Actually, within those mediums, Beta provided a superior quality. VHS found it's place better situated within the commercial market.

[img]http://deardorffcameras.0catch.com/V4-V5_FS/4x5_Special_a.jpg[/img]

The first camera I trained with. A great camera.

[xamination]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582710' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:12 AM'][img]http://www.bodychannel.net/images/yy_opposition.jpg[/img]

Ironically, last night I caught a glimpse of a TV which you may of heard; "Phenom".

The contestant had a female guest come up on stage age and draw an image of whatever came to mind; he had her change her idea twice before settling on the last image.

As she was drawing, he went to a video piece, he claims was shot 1 month prior. In the piece, he was sitting in a chair at a Tatoo parlor; he was having a tatoo done on his right arm.

When the lady displayed her drawing, it was of the Yin yang symbol. He exposed his tatoo and it was the same. [/quote]
I think you would really love Derren Brown, look him up on youtube.

Anyways, I'm serious here. There is order in the universe, but this cannot come from God. This order that I have found through my mind is the same order that is present in Taoism.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='xamination' post='582759' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:42 AM']I think you would really love Derren Brown, look him up on youtube.

Anyways, I'm serious here. There is order in the universe, but this cannot come from God. This order that I have found through my mind is the same order that is present in Taoism.[/quote]


Interesting, I took a easter religons class a few years ago, I have meetings in 3 min so ill be back later on this.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582692' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:39 AM']On ethically borderline approach; I can only take this as reference towards the use of CARM and the research done by others.
First of all, I have presented this upfront. Where do you get your references? You went to college, you researched and studied material of others.
What's the difference. When you present an argument; your answer must have derived form variant sources and or life experience.[/quote]

The difference is that I most emphatically do not copy the written words of other authors and slide them into my own commentary as though they were mine. I follow both netiquette and, more importantly, commonly adopted methods for citing the work of others. So, when you directly scoop material from others, [url="http://www.carm.org/questions/rock.htm"]such as whole chunks of this[/url], without attribution or citation, then that is ethically borderline. For some, it's worse than that.

More importantly, it exposes a person as a fraud, a pretender, a person who is methodologically suspect, and most important, intellectually dishonest with oneself. That's the real crime here; you are, for whatever reason, incapable of sorting out the difference between what you know and what you don't know.

[quote]I percieve that some of what I post are difficult to refute, which leads to personal attacks and attempts of character assasination in an effort to minimize ones credibility.
Truely sad and clear sign of weakness.[/quote]

One cannot refute a madman. One either tolerates or marginalizes to keep the danger at a minimum.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582440' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:32 PM']What was he doing before the creation of the linear timeline and when was he doing it and for how long was he doing it and why did it take him so long to do whatever it was he was doing before he created time?[/quote]
[quote name='Jamie_B' post='582443' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:37 PM']Playing Halo?
[/quote]
[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582592' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:36 PM']Possibly waiting for the Beta Version to load along with Master Chief?[/quote]
[quote name='Lawman' post='582747' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:21 AM']Actually, within those mediums, Beta provided a superior quality. VHS found it's place better situated within the commercial market.[/quote]

[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=37956"]Funniest Halo video ever[/url]

Lawman, even when I'm joking we're not close to being on the same page.

[Lawman]

[quote]The difference is that I most [i]emphatically[/i] do not [u]copy the written words of other authors[/u] and [b]slide them into my own commentary as though they were mine[/b]. .[/quote]

.. and I have accredited the author with whom I post. There is no secret that CARM is a primary source.

I am not capabale of posting grammatically correct adaptations as you, therefore I see fit, to present what as given for the purpose of clarity.

An idea cannot be copyrighted; people share commanalities concerning idea's. If I find something that fit's within reasoning of what I believe, and I cannot improve on it's reading; I present it as is with a link accreditting it's author.

[quote]That's the real crime here; you are, for whatever reason, incapable of sorting out the difference between what you know and what you don't know.[/quote]

Homer, there are things (resource material) I hold in reserve awaiting appropriate timing. When I refer to resource material, I am implying sources I have researched and cross-referenced for accuracy coupled with the fact as to if they fall in line with what I believe. EdgarJ. Steele is an excellent example; there are issues were he makes great points,but his demeanor is a turn-off; he hates George W. Bush and blames Jews foreverything. But, I do not readily dismiss what he says based on his demeanor. I reserve this distinction for Michael Moore.

Admittingly, one of my faults is that will periodically intertwine two idea's into one thought process; as I have done within this thread.

.. a little Yogism "I know what I know, but I have forgotten almost all of what I cannot remember "

Now who is going to open up the discussion on Tao; you or I?

[Lawman]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582972' date='Nov 1 2007, 03:50 PM'][url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=37956"]Funniest Halo video ever[/url]

Lawman, even when I'm joking we're not close to being on the same page.[/quote]

[quote]Possibly waiting for the Beta Version to load along with Master Chief?[/quote]

No

Rules are rules

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='582663' date='Nov 1 2007, 04:50 AM']sub specie aeternitatis

natura naturans

natura naturata[/quote]
Whew!

It's probably been over 20 years since since I read anything involving Spinoza. And it wasn't much and what I remember is even less.

Nothing imperfect ever happens. I doubt if that was even his central thesis, but it is what I can remember.

What is perfect vs. imperfect is my perception or opinion. Which probably differs from God's perception. Or would God's perception be reality? I don't know. Kinda makes me feel dizzy to think about metaphysics.

Anyways, the human body is an amazingly complex piece of work. Just thinking about the complexity of something as simple as wiggling my big toe is remarkable. Converting a thought into a neurochemical reaction which is in turn converted into a neuroelectrical impulse which is then translated back into a neurochemical impulse which results in motion.

Amazing.

Perfect? Maybe, maybe not.

I give you Example A:

[center][img]http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/TheSteelersBlog/FatSteelerFan.jpg[/img][/center]

In my opinion, the human body is imperfect.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582977' date='Nov 1 2007, 02:56 PM']No

Rules are rules

[/quote]
I'm officially lost.

I have no idea what you mean.

[Fanatical]

This might restore some faith that a decent god exists:


[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/"]BALTIMORE - A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict against a fundamentalist church that pickets military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.

Albert Snyder sued the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members demonstrated at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.

The federal jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress
[/url]