Why should I believe in God?

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='582776' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:12 AM']Interesting, I took a easter religons class a few years ago, I have meetings in 3 min so ill be back later on this.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure you mean "Eastern" religions.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582972' date='Nov 1 2007, 03:50 PM'][url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=37956"]Funniest Halo video ever[/url]

Lawman, even when I'm joking we're not close to being on the same page.[/quote]


Darwin: I totally got all this figured out i'm l33t dawg.

God: What a noob.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Fanatical' post='583016' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:09 PM']This might restore some faith that a decent god exists:


[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/"]BALTIMORE - A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict against a fundamentalist church that pickets military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality.

Albert Snyder sued the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members demonstrated at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.

The federal jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress
[/url][/quote]

He does, those people are insane and in no way represent my faith.


[quote name='xamination' post='583038' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:49 PM']I'm pretty sure you mean "Eastern" religions. [/quote]

Yes, so now... why the tao?

[xamination]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583051' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:17 PM']He does, those people are insane and in no way represent my faith.




Yes, so now... why the tao?[/quote]
First, there is an order in this universe greater than the universe or God. I've been trying to show that throughout this thread. If you cannot see that, Taoism is going to be a pointless waste.
I call this order the Tao because it has already been labeled and named so. The Tao is why things are, and why things are the way they are. If science is the framework for existence, then the Tao is the framework of reality.
The fact that I am atheist has nothing to do with knowledge of the Tao. You could easily be Christian and Taoist. There is, however, a different way of thinking between traditional Christianity and Taoism.

[Lawman]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582987' date='Nov 1 2007, 04:16 PM']I'm officially lost.

I have no idea what you mean.[/quote]

All jokes require a ninja.

You wandered into my career field; without a ninja.

[Lawman]

[quote name='xamination' post='583057' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:26 PM']First, there is an order in this universe greater than the universe or God. I've been trying to show that throughout this thread. If you cannot see that, Taoism is going to be a pointless waste.
I call this order the Tao because it has already been labeled and named so. The Tao is why things are, and why things are the way they are. If science is the framework for existence, then the Tao is the framework of reality.
The fact that I am atheist has nothing to do with knowledge of the Tao. You could easily be Christian and Taoist. There is, however, a different way of thinking between traditional Christianity and Taoism.[/quote]

Homer,

I'm getting edgy here.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='582975' date='Nov 1 2007, 03:54 PM'].. and I have accredited the author with whom I post. There is no secret that CARM is a primary source.

I am not capabale of posting grammatically correct adaptations as you, therefore I see fit, to present what as given for the purpose of clarity.

An idea cannot be copyrighted; people share commanalities concerning idea's. If I find something that fit's within reasoning of what I believe, and I cannot improve on it's reading; I present it as is with a link accreditting it's author.



Homer, there are things (resource material) I hold in reserve awaiting appropriate timing. When I refer to resource material, I am implying sources I have researched and cross-referenced for accuracy coupled with the fact as to if they fall in line with what I believe. EdgarJ. Steele is an excellent example; there are issues were he makes great points,but his demeanor is a turn-off; he hates George W. Bush and blames Jews foreverything. But, I do not readily dismiss what he says based on his demeanor. I reserve this distinction for Michael Moore.

Admittingly, one of my faults is that will periodically intertwine two idea's into one thought process; as I have done within this thread.

.. a little Yogism "I know what I know, but I have forgotten almost all of what I cannot remember "

Now who is going to open up the discussion on Tao; you or I?[/quote]
Are you truly this obtuse? Copying and pasting, word for word, another person's ideas, and then presenting them as though they were your own, is wrong. Period. No excuses, no waffling, no "I have a photographic memory but still I get confused at times" rejoinders will suffice. That first, you engage in this behavior, and second, appear to condone it, says a lot to some people.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583093' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:33 PM']Are you truly this obtuse? Copying and pasting, word for word, another person's ideas, and then presenting them as though they were your own, is wrong. Period. No excuses, no waffling, no "I have a photographic memory but still I get confused at times" rejoinders will suffice. That first, you engage in this behavior, and second, appear to condone it, says a lot to some people.[/quote]


I wonder if he would feel the same way, as a photographer, if someone were taking his pics without crediting him.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='582986' date='Nov 1 2007, 04:13 PM']Whew!

It's probably been over 20 years since since I read anything involving Spinoza. And it wasn't much and what I remember is even less.

Nothing imperfect ever happens. I doubt if that was even his central thesis, but it is what I can remember.

What is perfect vs. imperfect is my perception or opinion. Which probably differs from God's perception. Or would God's perception be reality? I don't know. Kinda makes me feel dizzy to think about metaphysics.

Anyways, the human body is an amazingly complex piece of work. Just thinking about the complexity of something as simple as wiggling my big toe is remarkable. Converting a thought into a neurochemical reaction which is in turn converted into a neuroelectrical impulse which is then translated back into a neurochemical impulse which results in motion.

Amazing.

Perfect? Maybe, maybe not.[/quote]
Enjoyed your recap of the Reconquista the other day. Spinoza's family were [i]conversos[/i] who made their way to the Netherlands as a result of the oppressive atmosphere in Spain. While still under Spanish control, it was a bit looser, culturally speaking.

Spinoza has a warm place in my heart, not so much because he is a great philosopher (he is a pretty good one), but because, as a philosophy undergrad, it just so happened that the light bulb went on during a seminar on his work. Up until that point I struggled in the field, but after working my way through his "On the Improvement of the Understanding" I began to "get it." As for why I might be interested in philosophy in the first place, even though I struggled, I'll simply suggest that my experience in the Navy made me ask questions to which I couldn't find decent answers. Nothing like your experiences, or those of some others here, though.

The interest in "perfection" was common to philosophers then, expecially on the Continent. A lot of that had to do with the influence of Aquinas and Augustine, as well as the Italian response, which we know as the Renaissance. Ficino and the Medici's Platonic Academy, the fall of Constantinople and the corresponding flooding of Italy with older manuscripts previously unavailable to the West, not to mention the development of geometry underlying so much of the Art of the period (see DaVinci, Durer, et al) contributed to hypotheses about the nature of "perfection"--what it was, was it attainable?, was it a part of nature? As the Renaissance made it's way north into France and Germany, the ideas spread.

For those who are interested:

sub specie aeternitatis= under the aspect of eternity. Spinoza coined this phrase to describe the actions of God in attributes not accessible to humans (Space, time)

natura naturans= Nature, naturing. The active component of nature/God as a causal and creative agency.

natura naturata= Nature, being natured. The passive component of the above; nature being acted upon.

The problem that so many folks seem to stumble upon is viewing the universe as merely mechanistic. This clearly cannot be so, for if it were, then how would one explain the emergence in nature of higher orders of organization that are not logically dervied from a given set of premises? For example, whence life? How did organic matter come into being out of inorganic matter? Lots of people have spent lots of time on these questions and it's a fun investigation for those curious about the issue. Want to get a grasp on the concept of Reductivism, then explore this avenue.

It's clearly true that nature is "discontinuous" in some respects, while somehow maintaining a coherence which is rational, in many ways predictive, and comprehensible by humans (who are, in fact, an example of discontinuous leaps in organization with respect to our being able to contemplate/form hypotheses, etc... . (See Descartes' [i]cogito[/i] as an exploration of this.)

In any case, it all boils down to this: is the universe rational or irrational? Is what we call God rational or irrational? Does God reside sub specie aeternitatis, under the aspect of eternity, expressing intent via the creative aspect of natura naturans, nature naturing? Because humans only peceive time and space among the infinite attributes of God, is our perception restricted to observing natura naturata, nature being natured? Or, can we catch a glimpse of the active Creative principle at work? If so, then we co-participate in creation, as God intends. If not, then there may be no essential difference between humans and lower forms of life.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583100' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:39 PM']I wonder if he would feel the same way, as a photographer, if someone were taking his pics without crediting him.[/quote]
Exactly. Give credit where credit is due. One doesn't have to account for every idea one has, but one ought to acknowledge pickpocketing.

Love the avatar, btw!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583127' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:16 PM']Exactly. Give credit where credit is due. One doesn't have to account for every idea one has, but one ought to acknowledge pickpocketing.

[color="#FF0000"]Love the avatar, btw![/color][/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583093' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:33 PM']Are you truly this obtuse? Copying and pasting, word for word, another person's ideas, and then presenting them as though they were your own, is wrong. Period. No excuses, no waffling, no "I have a photographic memory but still I get confused at times" rejoinders will suffice. That first, you engage in this behavior, and second, appear to condone it, says a lot to some people.[/quote]

[quote]Lawman
Can God make a rock so big he can't pick it up? The argument goes that if he can make a rock so big he can't pick it up, then he isn't omnipotent either. Therefore God does not exist.

The problem is that the argument omits some crucial information and draws an inaccurate conclusion.

What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of his nature; it is part of his nature. God has a nature and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.

The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature. But, not being able to do this does not mean he is not God nor that he is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with his nature and consistent with his desire within the realm of his unlimited and universal power which we do not possess.

This does not mean he can violate His own nature. If he did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory. If God were self contradictory, he would not be true.[/quote]

I will concede, this portion was taken from CARM. Not verbatim, but within the context of a reader digest condensed version, which I put together as a response.

If you felt decieved, I offer my sincere apology. Deception is not my attempt, rather as stated earlier, for the purpose of clarity. I was blinded with the means justifying the ends, But, it was my own fault and I take full responsibility.

As for it's contents, I still do agree with. Well, I guess I have too since I put the reply together.

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583100' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:39 PM']I wonder if he would feel the same way, as a photographer, if someone were taking his pics without crediting him.[/quote]

Actually, I have freely giving away photographic idea's and had provided inspiration to others.

[xamination]

Have we all hugged and made up now?

[Lawman]

[quote]Homer_Rice
Spinoza has a warm place in my heart, not so much because he is a great philosopher (he is a pretty good one), but because, as a philosophy undergrad, it just so happened that the light bulb went on during a seminar on his work.[/quote]

From what I have read, Spinoza's God is not the God of Abraham or a personal God at all. His god was more of a Nature God reliant on science, resonating with Mediaeval Jewish mysticism . [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]

[Lawman]

[quote name='xamination' post='583155' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:49 PM']Have we all hugged and made up now?[/quote]

I like you, yes you played around a little bit. But, you eventually presented your belief and which is more of a
philosophy than an actual religon. However, [b]YOU[/b] have clearly stated your position as an atheist [b]unlike others[/b] we know.


Now, is the time to revist the "Jesus vs Muhammad" thread; I have some bait to check on.

[xamination]

[quote name='Lawman' post='583168' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:31 PM']But, you eventually presented your belief and which is more of a
philosophy than an actual religon.[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. However, it doesn't matter if its philosophy or religion if it's true, correct?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='Lawman' post='583085' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:25 PM']All jokes require a ninja.

You wandered into my career field; without a ninja. [/quote]
Unbelievable.

I did no such thing unles you are a [color="#FF0000"]video game programmer or tester[/color], not a [color="#0000FF"]VIDEOGRAPHER.[/color]

The joke refers to a beta version of "Halo 3" the video game. [color="#FF0000"]A beta version is the first release of a product outside of the company for testing.[/color]

It has nothing to do with [color="#FF0000"]Beta VIDEO TAPE.[/color]

I asked what was God doing before he created time and why did it take so long to do it.

Jamie asked, "Playing Halo?"

To which I replied, "Possibly waiting for the Beta Version to load along with Master Chief?"

If you had watched the [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=37956"]Funniest Halo Video Ever[/url] you would laugh your ass off as Master Chief curses the Heavens because it takes an eternity for the Beta Version of Halo 3 to load so he can play the game.

I was certain Jaime would get the joke because Jaime knows everything that happens on this board.

Jaime's response: "God: what a noob"


Your response: "Actually, within those mediums, Beta provided a superior quality. VHS found it's place better situated within the commercial market."
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//26.gif[/img]

Me===> [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

C'mon, work with me. I need you here. Not over there.

This stupid joke can't possibly be more difficult to interpret than the King James Version of the Book of Revelations.

You're going to explain to me how entropy and a linear timeline don't apply to God, but yet I have to explain the difference between a beta version and a beta video tape?

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]

Kije? Is that you?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

Homer,

Have you ever read [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance"]Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance[/url]? I can't believe I read that for "fun."

Anyways...

What you have presented in this thread and in the "Patches" thread is thought provoking stuff and intellectually appealing to me. I think you have explained it more clearly than what I've studied previously. Your understanding and knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy is much greater than my own.

For me, God would have to be irrational and the universe as well. I think we're a comedy of cosmic errors. The order we see in the universe is analogous to "hindsight is 20/20." We perceive the order because how could we perceive 'it' any other way. However, maybe this is a form of sub specie aeternitatis because from the view point of eternity the randomness is eliminated leaving order much in the same way as evolution's "survival of the fittest." Seperating humans from lower forms of life would be another of man's selfish vanities. The "I'm special" complex. I don't think we're that special.

Putting these debates aside, my dilemma is not philosophical, it's spiritual. I have a complete and utter lack of Faith. If you don't have it, I don't know how you get it. At this point for me, it's kind of like having blue eyes. They either are or they aren't.

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism appeal to me, but no way am I ever achieving Nirvana and I'm a goal oriented type person. Why start something only to fail?

You ever sit around and wonder what you'll be doing on...oh say...your 10 millionth Saturday night in Heaven? I guess the same thing you do every Saturday night in Heaven...Bingo.

What if you get to Heaven and you wonder, "Is this it? Why am I here? What is the purpose?"

What would happen if you said, "God, I love what you've done with the place. Fabulous! But, I'd like something...different."

What do you feel when you arrive in Heaven to find out that your wife and family aren't "in a better place?" God, I've been dying for a boy's night out.

I don't really expect a response to these ramblings. Just shit that rolls through my head.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lawman' post='583158' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:02 PM']From what I have read, Spinoza's God is not the God of Abraham or a personal God at all. His god was more of a Nature God reliant on science, resonating with Mediaeval Jewish mysticism . [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img][/quote]
First, as is typical with you, you misunderstood what I meant in the portion you quoted.

Second, I must congratulate you. Your half-hour or so reading of a secondary source, possibly slanted to your POV, has given you a knowledge of Spinoza far surpassing anyone who might take hours, days, or even weeks and months of trying to understand the man, his culture, including what and why he thought the way he did.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='583267' date='Nov 2 2007, 03:11 AM']Have you ever read [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance"]Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance[/url]? I can't believe I read that for "fun."[/quote]
It's been recommended to me many times. Never have gotten around to it, though.

[quote]For me, God would have to be irrational and the universe as well. I think we're a comedy of cosmic errors. The order we see in the universe is analogous to "hindsight is 20/20." We perceive the order because how could we perceive 'it' any other way. However, maybe this is a form of sub specie aeternitatis because from the view point of eternity the randomness is eliminated leaving order much in the same way as evolution's "survival of the fittest." Seperating humans from lower forms of life would be another of man's selfish vanities. The "I'm special" complex. I don't think we're that special.[/quote]
I've heard this perspective before; I just disagree. That humans are noetic is not a vanity, simply a fact of nature. I suspect that there are many other noetic species in the vastness of the universe. (maybe I should write Kucinich to see if he'll ask Xenu the next time he spots a UFO. )

[quote]Putting these debates aside, my dilemma is not philosophical, it's spiritual. I have a complete and utter lack of Faith. If you don't have it, I don't know how you get it. At this point for me, it's kind of like having blue eyes. They either are or they aren't.[/quote]
A little anecdote about faith, fwiw. Your mileage may vary.

Roughly a quarter of a century ago, our family gathered at the parents home for Christmas. I'm an early riser, so one morning I was sitting in the kitchen, in the dark, not really doing much of anything--just getting ready for the day. My older brother came downstairs and took a seat in the living room. He didn't know I was downstairs, too. After a few moments he began to cry. In no time at all, his crying turned into sobs--great, gulping spasms of obvious agony. Loud, as you might imagine. I went out there and as I got out there my mother came downstairs. After a few minutes of cooing and consoling him, she finally managed to get him to say what was making him so sad.

My brother pointed at me, and said, "He's going off to Cleveland to see his girlfriend. Julie [my sister] has a boyfriend. I don't have anybody and that's not right. I'm the oldest and it's not fair."

Not fair. Nor just, either.

My older brother was retarded. And what's worse, he knew he was retarded. How about them apples? What it must have been like to know that you had been betrayed--by God, by one's DNA, by who knows what quirk of nature. This knuckleball of whatever it was that made him so was also a bit of cruelty for not making him oblivious to his infirmities. Instead, he was painfully and acutely aware of his separation from the normal flow of life.

And so he wept uncontrollably one day as he was overwhelmed when contemplating the happiness of his siblings in contrast with his fundamental sadness. And, although he never gave voice to it, I suspect that underlying it all was the realization that it would always be that way. [i]It never was going to change.[/i]

A small injustice in the greater scheme of things. But for my brother, this insignificant tribulation was the greatest injustice of them all. He didn't ask to be born that way; he didn't like being obviously "different" to people who only had to glance at him to realize that he was retarded. He suffered it every moment of every day of his life.

Which ended in the summer of 2001 while he was still in his mid-40s. And that is how one day I stood alone in his apartment in Norwood, engaged in the mundane task of cleaning up after a life just lived, and I began to cry, myself. Not gone a week and I already missed him. Yet, previously I had gone months and even years between visits without giving our brotherhood too much thought. It wasn't until then that I truly came to understand his isolation and his desolation.

Did I want to rail at the world for this injustice? You bet. Sometimes I still do, all these years later. But what good would that do? Better to appreciate his uniqueness--as dysfunctional as it was--it was not entirely pain and misery. He had a wicked sense of humor and there were times when he did make lemonade out of lemons.

And this has what to do with faith, you ask? In his own way, my brother was indomitable. He didn't exactly accept what nature offered him, but he did cope with it. And, as off the beaten path as his life might have been, he still demonstrated some traits which are appreciated by us all, especially when the chips are down, as his were down almost all the time.

I personally don't spend much time contemplating eternal life. I think it a selfish and conceited notion. My personal relation to immortality is measured not by the persistence of my personality or the quirks of my character. My faith resides in the resonance of the moment and its relation to the infinite. Is this act, right here, right now, consonant with what my Maker has endowed me to do? Does it pay tribute to those who came before me? To those who will come after me? My faith does not require a secret handshake or a set of rituals in order to pass into some kind of nirvana. My faith requires that I be as honest as I can--even ruthlessly so, especially with myself. My faith requires that I locate belief in the innate Goodness of the human individual--despite all evidence to the contrary by slackers who give themselves a pass for their transgressions. My faith requires that I occasionally do small things, like pay a tribute to my brother's memory, as I have done just now.

And so, he is come back to life, briefly, and hopefully, with purpose.

[xamination]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583277' date='Nov 2 2007, 06:50 AM']It's been recommended to me many times. Never have gotten around to it, though.


I've heard this perspective before; I just disagree. That humans are noetic is not a vanity, simply a fact of nature. I suspect that there are many other noetic species in the vastness of the universe. (maybe I should write Kucinich to see if he'll ask Xenu the next time he spots a UFO. )


A little anecdote about faith, fwiw. Your mileage may vary.

Roughly a quarter of a century ago, our family gathered at the parents home for Christmas. I'm an early riser, so one morning I was sitting in the kitchen, in the dark, not really doing much of anything--just getting ready for the day. My older brother came downstairs and took a seat in the living room. He didn't know I was downstairs, too. After a few moments he began to cry. In no time at all, his crying turned into sobs--great, gulping spasms of obvious agony. Loud, as you might imagine. I went out there and as I got out there my mother came downstairs. After a few minutes of cooing and consoling him, she finally managed to get him to say what was making him so sad.

My brother pointed at me, and said, "He's going off to Cleveland to see his girlfriend. Julie [my sister] has a boyfriend. I don't have anybody and that's not right. I'm the oldest and it's not fair."

Not fair. Nor just, either.

My older brother was retarded. And what's worse, he knew he was retarded. How about them apples? What it must have been like to know that you had been betrayed--by God, by one's DNA, by who knows what quirk of nature. This knuckleball of whatever it was that made him so was also a bit of cruelty for not making him oblivious to his infirmities. Instead, he was painfully and acutely aware of his separation from the normal flow of life.

And so he wept uncontrollably one day as he was overwhelmed when contemplating the happiness of his siblings in contrast with his fundamental sadness. And, although he never gave voice to it, I suspect that underlying it all was the realization that it would always be that way. [i]It never was going to change.[/i]

A small injustice in the greater scheme of things. But for my brother, this insignificant tribulation was the greatest injustice of them all. He didn't ask to be born that way; he didn't like being obviously "different" to people who only had to glance at him to realize that he was retarded. He suffered it every moment of every day of his life.

Which ended in the summer of 2001 while he was still in his mid-40s. And that is how one day I stood alone in his apartment in Norwood, engaged in the mundane task of cleaning up after a life just lived, and I began to cry, myself. Not gone a week and I already missed him. Yet, previously I had gone months and even years between visits without giving our brotherhood too much thought. It wasn't until then that I truly came to understand his isolation and his desolation.

Did I want to rail at the world for this injustice? You bet. Sometimes I still do, all these years later. But what good would that do? Better to appreciate his uniqueness--as dysfunctional as it was--it was not entirely pain and misery. He had a wicked sense of humor and there were times when he did make lemonade out of lemons.

And this has what to do with faith, you ask? In his own way, my brother was indomitable. He didn't exactly accept what nature offered him, but he did cope with it. And, as off the beaten path as his life might have been, he still demonstrated some traits which are appreciated by us all, especially when the chips are down, as his were down almost all the time.

I personally don't spend much time contemplating eternal life. I think it a selfish and conceited notion. My personal relation to immortality is measured not by the persistence of my personality or the quirks of my character. My faith resides in the resonance of the moment and its relation to the infinite. Is this act, right here, right now, consonant with what my Maker has endowed me to do? Does it pay tribute to those who came before me? To those who will come after me? My faith does not require a secret handshake or a set of rituals in order to pass into some kind of nirvana. My faith requires that I be as honest as I can--even ruthlessly so, especially with myself. My faith requires that I locate belief in the innate Goodness of the human individual--despite all evidence to the contrary by slackers who give themselves a pass for their transgressions. My faith requires that I occasionally do small things, like pay a tribute to my brother's memory, as I have done just now.

And so, he is come back to life, briefly, and hopefully, with purpose.[/quote]
First of all, read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's a great book.
Second, your story really speaks to me. I also have a brother who is mentally challenged, though I am not as close to him as you are with yours. Thank you for sharing, you really touched me there.

[Lawman]

Nobel Peace Prize winner [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smoot"]George Smoot[/url] and the [url="http://aether.lbl.gov/"]Smoot Group-Astrophysics&Cosmology[/url]


[url="http://cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm"]New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God [/url]

Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross

[u]Excerpt:[/u]

[b]The Day They Found 90% of the Universe [/b]

Now, what exactly was it that these astronomers discovered? They found 90% of the universe. Any day that you find 90% of the universe is a red-letter day. What they essentially found was a new kind of matter. For a couple of years, physicists have suspected that the universe must have a different kind of matter. (Exotic matter)......

[b]God: Not Confined by Time [/b]

My sons and [u]the atheists [/u]are assuming that God is confined to time in the same way that we are. But the Bible and the equations of General Relativity tell us that the entity that brought the universe into existence is not confined in time like we are, or the way that the universe is.

God can move and operate in at least two dimensions of time. In two dimensions of time, time becomes a plane, like a sheet of paper, length and width. In a plane, you can have as many lines as you want and as many directions as you want.

It would be possible for God to dwell on a time line running through a sheet of paper that's infinitely long, and that never crosses or touches the timeline of our universe. As such, God would have no beginning, no end and he would not be created. Sound familiar?

[Lawman]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583273' date='Nov 2 2007, 05:32 AM']First, as is typical with you, you misunderstood what I meant in the portion you quoted.

Second, I must congratulate you. Your half-hour or so reading of a secondary source, possibly slanted to your POV, has given you a knowledge of Spinoza far surpassing anyone who might take hours, days, or even weeks and months of trying to understand the man, his culture, including what and why he thought the way he did.[/quote]

So, he was outcasted (ex-communicated) from his Jewish community, due to there preception that he was promoting
polytheism; identified through his belief in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism"]pantheism[/url].

Kinda like what Muhhamad went through.

[Lawman]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='583256' date='Nov 2 2007, 01:25 AM']The joke refers to a beta version of "Halo 3" the video game. [color="#FF0000"]A beta version is the first release of a product outside of the company for testing.[/color][/quote]


What is this Halo you speak of?

[b]Secure a Building[/b]

[i]If you told Navy personnel to "secure a building," they would turn off the lights and lock the doors.

Army personnel would occupy the building so no one could enter.

Marines would assault the building, capture it, and defend it with suppressive fire and close combat.

Air Force personnel would take out a three-year lease with an option to buy.[/i]