Death Penalty - Justice or Barbaric

[Homer_Rice]

Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.

The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.

[jza10304]

[quote name='BadassBengal' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:44 AM'] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]

The arguments agaisnt the death penalty are just... stupid, IMO.
[right][post="72227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
What about people who are falsely convicted? There have been people who were exonerated by new evidence or DNA. Not to mention that already spent 10-15 years of their life waiting for their appeals to go through. I think we don't have a perfect system of government so we shouldn't use the death penalty except in those cases where we go into someone's house and find the victims stacked up in the freezer. There are death penalty convictions based on eyewitnesses and circumstantial evidence due to lack of funds for good lawyers and experts to testify.

Most people on death row aren't black (although they are disproportionately represented), but most people on death row are in the lower income brackets. There are also huge disparities when there are interracial crimes (black victim - white convict, white victim - black convict). Therefore, I don't know how many innocent people have to die or is acceptable just so we can carry on our cycle of revenge. It is more expensive to have the death penalty so that argument can be thrown out:
[url="http://deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost"]Death Penalty.org[/url]
[quote]The High Cost of the Death Penalty to Taxpayers

Capital punishment in California, as in every other state, is more expensive than a life imprisonment sentence without the opportunity of parole. These costs are not the result of frivolous appeals but rather the result of Constitutionally mandated safeguards that can be summarized as follows:

Juries must be given clear guidelines on sentencing, which result in explicit provisions for what constitutes aggravating and mitigating circumstances.
Defendants must have a dual trial--one to establish guilt or innocence and if guilty a second trial to determine whether or not they would get the death penalty.
Defendants sentenced to death are granted oversight protection in an automatic appeal to the state supreme court.
These constitutional safeguards translate into:

a more extensive jury selection procedure
a four fold increase in the number of motions filed
a longer, dual trial process
more investigators and expert testimony
more lawyers specializing in death penalty litigation
automatic, mandatory appeals
Since there are few defendants who will plead guilty to a capital charge, virtually every death penalty trial becomes a jury trial with all of the above necessary requirements and expenses.

David Erickson's study* of Los Angeles County breaks down the cost of a capital trial and compares it with the costs of a murder trial where the death penalty is not sought. The following schedule is a summary of Erickson's cost study of a death penalty trial in Los Angeles County only.

This table does not take into consideration the cost of incarceration which, for a death row defendant, would average $189,603. The incarceration of an inmate sentenced to life imprisonment generally costs about $821,613.

In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935.
*David Erickson's study was completed in 1993 in the form of a Master's thesis for UC Berkeley's Graduate School of Public Policy. The complete study can be found in the UC Berkeley Graduate Library.



General Studies

A study done by the Sacramento Bee argued that California would save $90 million per year if it were to abolish the death penalty.
The average cost of a capital trial in Texas is $2.3 million--three times the cost to incarcerate an individual for 40 years.
The average cost of a capital trial in Florida is $3.2 million.[/quote]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:11 AM']Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.

The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.
[right][post="72238"][/post][/right][/quote]

You shouldn` t be so condescending and call people
"children".


But yeah the nature and essential properties
and relations of all beings, as such, or the principles and
causes of being.

But some "beings" won`t let others BE alive so they should BE snuffed out. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

I guess you think that all things happen for a reason and the innocent
people that get killed were just part of the "plan of things" ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//17.gif[/img]








I never said it was a perfect system jza. But with DNA testing ...
no "innocent" people will be put to death now.
Plus we don`t kill people for stealing cows and stuff aymore. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:04 AM']I respectfully disagree as well, while murder is a bit of a stretch from this,
My 1st roommate was a alcoholic and to the degree that he went to rehab for it, rehab didn’t help him, all he did in there to get alcohol was sift Nyquil through bread. When he gave his life to God he completely stopped, went cold turkey, never touched it again.

Sorry I know this sounds preachy to some, and its not intended that way, just intended as another perspective.
[right][post="72235"][/post][/right][/quote]

no offense man, but rehabilitating from alcohol is a little different than rehabilitation from murder...

I have seen the good lord in my own life, so i know the power he actually has... to those that haven't given theirselves to the Lord, will make fun of you and I, but that is b/c they don't know and haven't experenced it... but if you commit murder, besides key things like defending yourself, or your country, or a someone else (in other words, if you are in danger of being killed yourself) then you are worthless, no matter if you become the pope, preacher, etc afterwords... there is no hope for a murderer...

btw, now that is some preaching

[jza10304]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:29 AM']I never said it was a perfect system jza. But with DNA testing ...
no "innocent  people will be put to death now.
Plus we don`t kill people for stealing cows and stuff aymore.  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/18.gif[/img]
[right][post="72244"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Not only is it not perfect but I don't think it is fair. To be honest if me or you are up on Capital charges we are up shits creek unless we can get the right lawyer who knows how to pick a jury and work the courtroom to instill some kind of doubt or compassion in them. I don't think the court appointed lawyer I get (who is handling 3 other cases, is overworked and under paid, and wasn't quite bright enough out of law school to get on with a law firm) will represent me as well as the slick, tactical, courtroom technician. Why should some who have committed similar crimes, have to die while others don't (depending on how much $ you have, your race/ethnicity, or what part of the country you live in)?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:31 AM']no offense man, but rehabilitating from alcohol is a little different than rehabilitation from murder...

I have seen the good lord in my own life, so i know the power he actually has... to those that haven't given theirselves to the Lord, will make fun of you and I, but that is b/c they don't know and haven't experenced it... but if you commit murder, besides key things like defending yourself, or your country, or a someone else (in other words, if you are in danger of being killed yourself) then you are worthless, no matter if you become the pope, preacher, etc afterwords... there is no hope for a murderer...

btw, now that is some preaching 
[right][post="72246"][/post][/right][/quote]


Well then well just disagree. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

[jza10304]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:31 AM']if you commit murder, besides key things like defending yourself, or your country, or a someone else (in other words, if you are in danger of being killed yourself) then you are worthless, no matter if you become the pope, preacher, etc afterwords... there is no hope for a murderer...
[right][post="72246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Do you consider the pope a murderer for not helping out people in Africa by promoting safe sex to help curb the AIDS epidemic? There are kids being born with a death sentence.

[Guest bengalrick]

Jza, you make some very valid points... no question our system is not perfect... there have been some innocent people rott in jail or even was killed... that shouldn't stop us though, from killing someone when we have DNA evidence... the chances of us catching someone w/ the bodies in the freezer are slim to none...

and about the lower income brackets and death row comparison is easily explained... i am going to get a little brutaily honest here, so bear w/ me:

1. they are probably poor for a reason.... we live in the most prosperious country in the world... i have little sympathy for someone that is poor and lives in america (EXCEPT for someone like a single mother/father)... otherwise, get a fucking job, and shut the fuck up!! there are opportunities literally everywhere you look

2. If you are not ambitious enough to have a job that pays more that the "mcdonalds fryolator" does, they you are probably thinking of an easy way to get by, and not have to work... case and point right there... they are losers.



if your poor and live in America, get a job. period.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:37 AM']Not only is it not perfect but I don't think it is fair.  To be honest if me or you are up on Capital charges we are up shits creek unless we can get the right lawyer who knows how to pick a jury and work the courtroom to instill some kind of doubt or compassion in them.  I don't think the court appointed lawyer I get (who is handling 3 other cases, is overworked and under paid, and wasn't quite bright enough out of law school to get on with a law firm) will represent me as well as the slick, tactical, courtroom technician.  [b]Why should some who have committed similar crimes, have to die while others don't (depending on how much $ you have, your race/ethnicity, or what part of the country you live in)?[/b]
[right][post="72250"][/post][/right][/quote]



Let`s not make this a race issue.

Some states have different laws as far as Capital Punishment.
If you want to kill some1 in cold blood ....don`t move to Texas. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

Anyway Forensic Science is to the point that if you are convicted by the
evidence mounted against you...you are not innocent ...
watch CSI, they always get the right guy.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:40 AM']Do you consider the pope a murderer for not helping out people in Africa by promoting safe sex to help curb the AIDS epidemic?  There are kids being born with a death sentence.
[right][post="72252"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

no... he didn't pull any triggers...

i believe that he was preaching absencence, which happens to be a little more effective than a rubber

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:37 AM']Not only is it not perfect but I don't think it is fair.  To be honest if me or you are up on Capital charges we are up shits creek unless we can get the right lawyer who knows how to pick a jury and work the courtroom to instill some kind of doubt or compassion in them.  I don't think the court appointed lawyer I get (who is handling 3 other cases, is overworked and under paid, and wasn't quite bright enough out of law school to get on with a law firm) will represent me as well as the slick, tactical, courtroom technician.  Why should some who have committed similar crimes, have to die while others don't (depending on how much $ you have, your race/ethnicity, or what part of the country you live in)?
[right][post="72250"][/post][/right][/quote]

i guess i found a lot to dispute w/ this post

i absolutely don't agree w/ people like OJ, and others that have money to get off w/ nothing... that is part of the "not perfect" system and we need to take care of that problem.. but that shouldn't be an arguement for not using the death penality...

[jza10304]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:51 AM']no... he didn't pull any triggers...

i believe that he was preaching absencence, which happens to be a little more effective than a rubber
[right][post="72258"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
it is only a little more effective. How do you think the U.S. has somehow managed to slow down the AIDS epidemic (and other sexually transmitted diseases) or at least keep it stable? Is abstinence the rave nowadays? That would be contrary to "the sky is falling" reports about morality in this country. I like to believe that education and safer sex have had something to do with it.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:57 AM'][b]it is only a little more effective[/b].  How do you think the U.S. has somehow managed to slow down the AIDS epidemic (and other sexually transmitted diseases) or at least keep it stable?  Is abstinence the rave nowadays?  That would be contrary to "the sky is falling" reports about morality in this country.  I like to believe that education and safer sex have had something to do with it.
[right][post="72262"][/post][/right][/quote]

only a little more effective?!? i absolutely disagree... you can't get an STD or get pregnant from not having sex... you can w/ a condom, and it is pretty common
no, that is not the rave in america... but look at it realistically, w/ a condom, you can still get preganent, or get a host of diseases... you can't when you don't have sex...

i'm not retarted, i myself didn't follow that way of thinking as a kid, but what is better: telling someone to not have sex and explain why (there are plenty of reasons) or telling them to use a rubber (it might help )... i understand the pope's position 100%

things have gotten worse and worse, and its all b/c we act like oral sex and condoms are acceptable... if they weren't considered acceptable, i believe it would be more like my parents time when most women did wait until around 18 or so... not all did, but a hell of alot more than now...

the reason society is getting worse, is b/c we keep exposing people to things they shouldn't be exposed to, at too early of an age... kids are getting too smart... kids don't even believe that oral sex is sex now... that isn't right imo..

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:57 AM']it is only a little more effective.  How do you think the U.S. has somehow managed to slow down the AIDS epidemic (and other sexually transmitted diseases) or at least keep it stable?  Is abstinence the rave nowadays?  That would be contrary to "the sky is falling" reports about morality in this country.  I like to believe that education and safer sex have had something to do with it.
[right][post="72262"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


I think thats a hard thing to determine, with studies like this ...

[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55856-2004Dec10.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Dec10.html[/url]

Now coralate that with the drop in Aids? ... hmm...

Not saying that is the case, but a possibility.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 12:06 PM']kids don't even believe that oral sex is sex now
[right][post="72266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


[img]http://files.db3nf.com/pictures/authors/clinton.jpg[/img]
I agree!!

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:06 AM']I think thats a hard thing to determine, with studies like this ...

[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55856-2004Dec10.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Dec10.html[/url]

Now coralate that with the drop in Aids? ... hmm...

Not saying that is the case, but a possibility.
[right][post="72267"][/post][/right][/quote]

great article... but these are misleading... oral sex isn't considered sex to teenagers anymore...

[url="http://www.teensarenotadisease.com/0,2669,SAV-0103040522,FF.html"]click here[/url]

they don't need to have sex, if they just get/give a lewinsky [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

<edit>

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:10 AM'][img]http://files.db3nf.com/pictures/authors/clinton.jpg[/img]
I agree!!
[right][post="72268"][/post][/right][/quote]

i knew we'd agree again soon jaime

[BengalsCat]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:57 AM']it is only a little more effective.  How do you think the U.S. has somehow managed to slow down the AIDS epidemic (and other sexually transmitted diseases) or at least keep it stable?  Is abstinence the rave nowadays?  That would be contrary to "the sky is falling" reports about morality in this country.  I like to believe that education and safer sex have had something to do with it.
[right][post="72262"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

no sex is the safest sex man.. kids dont get that though...... shit adults dont get it either... believe me in highschool know to many kids comming down with STD's.... rubber awareness and education hasnt done much as it should have.. PREACH ABSTINENCE.. not promote sex w/condom

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:29 AM']You shouldn` t be so condescending and call people
"children". 
But yeah the nature and essential properties
and relations of all beings, as such, or the principles and
causes of being.

But some "beings" won`t let others BE alive so they should BE snuffed out.  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

I guess you think that all things happen for a reason and the innocent
people that get killed were just part of the "plan of things"  ?  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//17.gif[/img]
[right][post="72244"][/post][/right][/quote]

Let's be clear. I wasn't my intent to be condescending. I was simply accurately addressing the level of maturity happening at that moment.

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:11 AM']Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.

The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.
[right][post="72238"][/post][/right][/quote]


I nominate this for the jerk post of the year.

[b]Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.[/b]

What the fuck is that? What an arrogant, elitist, asshole thing to say. Condescending is too nice of a word for it.

[b]The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.[/b]

I guarantee you that 99% of the people on this board don't know what that means. But that was your intention, wasn't it. That seems to be a theme with your posts. You're obviously well educated. Congratulations. You also obviously enjoy flaunting your education and using it as a means to present yourself as superior to us "children". It's not your intention to communicate your thoughts. If you talk over our heads, how can we argue. We'll have to assume the brainiac is right. It's like the Dennis Miller approach to comedy. Fill your act with obscure references and people will laugh because no one wants to admit they don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Sometimes common sense trumps education. This isn't a debate about absolute science. It's a debate about right and wrong. Justice and injustice. Sometimes a child has a better grasp of reality than an elitist snob whose education has clouded their common sense. I'm not well educated, but I'm not an id10t or a child. If you disagree with the death penalty, tell us why in words everyone can understand. If you want to flaunt your education, do it on a board for professors you pretentious prick.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='Apr 6 2005, 01:12 PM']I nominate this for this for the jerk post of the year.

[b]Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.[/b]

What the fuck is that? What an arrogant, elitist, asshole thing to say. Condescending is too nice of a word for it.

[b]The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.[/b]

I guarantee you that 99% of the people on this board don't know what that means. But that was your intention, wasn't it. That seems to be a theme with your posts. You're obviously well educated. Congratulations. You also obviously enjoy flaunting your education and using it as a means to present yourself as superior to us "children". It's not your intention to communicate your thoughts. If you talk over our heads, how can we argue. We'll have to assume the brainiac is right. It's like the Dennis Miller approach to comedy. Fill your act with obscure references and people will laugh because no one wants to admit they don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Sometimes common sense trumps education. This isn't a debate about absolute science. It's a debate about right and wrong. Justice and injustice. Sometimes a child has a better grasp of reality than an elitist snob whose education has clouded their common sense. I'm not well educated, but I'm not an id10t or a child. If you disagree with the death penalty, tell us why in words everyone can understand. If you want to flaunt your education, do it on a board for professors you pretentious prick.

   
[right][post="72329"][/post][/right][/quote]



[img]http://www.divizion-wiking.com/boite%20a%20images/smiley/clap%20clap.gif[/img] again !

[Beaker]

I understand where OS and the rest are coming from. But I think the change in thinking has to start somewhere. As the father of a little girl I say this. I dont think anyone should be killed. But I also dont think they should be sent to jail to live on the tax dollar for 30+ yrs in most cases. Thats what makes the issue so tricky. I dont believe revenge is a good motive, nor that it is a deterrent. But I dont have any solution to offer as an alternative, so I guess I am part of the problem. I just think the overall outlook of people needs shifting.

[Guest bengalrick]

very good, and thoughtful post beaker...

[jza10304]

It has been shown that it is more expensive to put someone to death, than to give them a life sentence w/o parole, so is the issue about tax payer money or them being alive?

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 6 2005, 03:40 PM']It has been shown that it is more expensive to put someone to death, than to give them a life sentence w/o parole, so is the issue about tax payer money or them being alive?
[right][post="72408"][/post][/right][/quote]



you mean if we make them sit on death row for 10-20 years first right? otherwise, i don't follow you...

also, BJ's idea of hanging is a way to fix that problem

[STRAYCAT]

The only reason it would be more expensive is we let it be that way. Got to have the LAWYER there,got to pay the media to broadcast it. Just take them out back and hang the bastards.