Death Penalty - Justice or Barbaric

[Jamie_B]

While I dont condone the idea of killing, there is a better solution that no one has thought of.... Put them in solitare with a tv and make them watch browns games over and over and over.

[STRAYCAT]

We just need to get back to the basics.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='STRAYCAT' date='Apr 6 2005, 08:03 PM']We just need to get back to the basics.
[right][post="72481"][/post][/right][/quote]


So do the Browns....oh! (Wait maybe this belongs in the 1 liners thread )

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='Apr 6 2005, 01:12 PM']I nominate this for the jerk post of the year.

[b]Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.[/b]

What the fuck is that? What an arrogant, elitist, asshole thing to say. Condescending is too nice of a word for it.

[b]The universal principle is always ontologically prior to the particular.[/b]

I guarantee you that 99% of the people on this board don't know what that means. But that was your intention, wasn't it. That seems to be a theme with your posts. You're obviously well educated.[/quote]

Thanks for the nomination

I don't mind your anger, and because we haven't engaged in any conversation to this point, I don't really give a damn what you think of me, as a person.

Insofar as my education goes; I earned it. I dropped out of high school as a kid, went into the military, and then experienced some things. I realized that being a dumbass was not the best way to go through life.

See, if I hadn't reoriented my value system, in a reasonably intelligent way, I'd be right here with those of you who advocate all this Old Testament, Wrath of God, lynch mob justice. But I know that that isn't justice at all. In fact, it is pure childishness. Now you may not like that, but then that would be your problem, not mine.

Furthermore, for those of you who act like children, I'd say, "That's not you, that's somebody you should have stopped being some time ago." And, if you really are more offended by my manner than by the downright nastiness of some of the ideas in this thread, well, that's some evidence, too, isn't it?

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:50 PM']Thanks for the nomination

I don't mind your anger, and because we haven't engaged in any conversation to this point, I don't really give a damn what you think of me, as a person.
[right][post="72550"][/post][/right][/quote]
I'm not saying you should give a damn what I think of you. I'm just telling you how you come off on a message board when you berate people.

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:50 PM']Insofar as my education goes; I earned it. I dropped out of high school as a kid, went into the military, and then experienced some things. I realized that being a dumbass was not the best way to go through life.
[right][post="72550"][/post][/right][/quote]
Education is a wonderful thing. So is humility. I'm not disrespecting your education, I'm pointing out your arrogance. People's level of education often depends on circumstances. Just because someone didn't go to college, that doesn't mean they're a dumbass. I've IQ tested in the high 140's. Maybe that's less than you, but I'm certainly not a dumbass.


[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:50 PM']See, if I hadn't reoriented my value system, in a reasonably intelligent way, I'd be right here with those of you who advocate all this Old Testament, Wrath of God, lynch mob justice. But I know that that isn't justice at all. In fact, it is pure childishness. Now you may not like that, but then that would be your problem, not mine.
[right][post="72550"][/post][/right][/quote]
Well, I'm atheist, so it has nothing to do with the wrath of God or the Old Testament. To equate it with lynch mob justice is a nice little catch phrase that isn't pertinent to the debate at hand. Lynch mob justice implies rounding up someone and hanging them based on false accusations and flimsy evidence. We're talking about people convicted in a court of law of committing heinous crimes.

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:50 PM']Furthermore, for those of you who act like children, I'd say, "That's not you, that's somebody you should have stopped being some time ago." And, if you really  are more offended by my manner than by the downright nastiness of some of the ideas in this thread, well, that's some evidence, too, isn't it?
[right][post="72550"][/post][/right][/quote]

I guess we've both said our peace. You think I'm childish because I think that someone who rapes, tortures and murders should be put to death. I think you're a pretentious prick. And there you have it.


BTW, do you think this was a mature way to address people you disagree with?

[b]Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.[/b]

Sounds pretty childish to me for such a mature, well educated person.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='Apr 7 2005, 01:09 AM']Well, I'm atheist, so it has nothing to do with the wrath of God or the Old Testament. To equate it with lynch mob justice is a nice little catch phrase that isn't pertinent to the debate at hand. Lynch mob justice implies rounding up someone and hanging them based on false accusations and flimsy evidence. We're talking about people convicted in a court of law of committing heinous crimes.[/quote]

Hmm... Ask Socrates or Thomas More about this. You are talking about people and heinous crimes; I'm talking about the death penalty.

Now, you may not have seen my early posts on this topic, so I'll restate my position. A government which sanctions putting people to death, when those people are already removed from creating any further damage, is a morally weaker government than one which does not. It's the relationship between mercy and justice which matters. I also said there is one class of crime in which the death penalty might be appropriate, and that is when the crime (or crimes) endanger the survival of the government itself. In circumstances other than that, using excessive force when it is not necessary says more about the agency exerting the force than it does about the recipient (no matter how heinous and repulsive that recipient might be.)

Now, one could make an argument that both Socrates and More were executed for precisely those reasons. In the former case, it was a jury manipulated into thinking that was the case precisely because they were not capable of forming a sound judgement regarding the circumstances of Socrates indictment. In the latter, it was a easily manupulated king and his cronies (some of whom were doing the manipulating.) In both cases, the judgement was both mistaken and wrong.

[quote]I guess we've both said our peace. You think I'm childish because I think that someone who rapes, tortures and murders should be put to death.[/quote]

Well, as I said, I don't know you; I do know that the view is morally childish. Imagine a society in which that view were allowed to dominate. When this sort of thinking runs amok, as a matter of legal principle, you end up with the Terror of the French Revolution, or the Inquisition, or the legal system of the Third Reich. Or, forbid the thought, a future United States under a harsh enforcement of the Patriot Act.

I'm not saying you advocate that, you probably do not. I am saying that therein lies the danger. When justice is merely retributive and allows for bloodlust, then who's to say where it all ends? There are no checks in the process, because the process allows for no checks within its system.

[quote]I think you're a pretentious prick. And there you have it.[/quote]

I'd say you are half-right. We just disagree on which half.

Apparently, you think I should be more humble. Considering the fact that you are not aware of the extent to which I have contemplated the idea of humility, and situated it in my life, you are simply saying that you disagree with my approach. Fair enough.

Yet, were I not to stand up for what I think is true, as forcefully and as rigorously as I can, on an issue like this, what kind of person would I be? Say, perhaps, I allowed people to run roughshod over me, and more importantly over the ideas I stood for, and not on the basis of rational discussion, but on the basis of silly "Drama Queen" soap images, etc... Would that be pretentious? Would it be prick-like? Would it be humble (falsely or othewise) if I were to ingratiate myself to the crowd, even if that meant betraying principles which I know to be true? Might a better term for that be cowardice, and not humility? I know my answer; you decide which answer applies to you, were you in the same circumstance.

[quote]BTW, do you think this was a mature way to address people you disagree with?

[b]Okay, children, I'll say it again. Take notes.[/b]

Sounds pretty childish to me for such a mature, well educated person.[/quote]

Someone has to call the class to order when things get unruly. That's not popular, but it is sometimes necessary. That you resent the fact that I did so, suggests to me that you might be attacking the messenger, instead of the message. In any case, I'm content to go through life the way I have chosen. We don't have to be friends to be in the same foxhole.

[Guest oldschooler]

Blah blah fucking blah.
I`m starting to think Homer is a blow hard that
rather read his own words than any1 elses.

I`m 35 years old. I haven`t been in a class for almost
half of my life. There is no need for you to think you have
to bring me "to order". If you want to take a Message Board
so seriously that you think people can`t act a little "childish"...
by posting a picture...I assume that`s what you think was "childish"...
then I`d say you are beyond a pretensious prick.
You`re a self absorbed,arrogant,super pretentious prick.
You may or not be ...but you sure come off that way.

Anyway enough about you ...back to the topic.
I am really fed up with people like you that think the greatest
Country in the World does nothing but wrong.

In case you haven`t noticed, the poll of this thread says that 73.92%
of the people on this board think that the Death Penalty is "Justice"
or "A good deterrent to crime". This being a Democracy in which we live...
well then I`d say you`re out-voted. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

And instead of telling us to go ASK Socrates (which I don`t think is possible)
or talking about metaphysics...why don`t you tell me why you think it
is so wrong for a country that has practiced the Death Penalty for
over 200 YEARS to keep practicing it ?
There are a few laws that I don`t agree with...but if I am caught
breaking them ...then I`ll pay for it accordingly. Every American knows
that there is a Death Penalty...and they know if you KILL some1 in cold blood
that you will be KILLED if you are found guilty by a jury of your peers.
You`ll get YEARS of appeals to prove your innocence.
How is that "barbaric" or a "small minded Government at work" when the
dumbass that commited the crime knew the LAWS were in place to begin with ?
Don`t commit the crime and you won`t have to pay the price.
Wow what a weird and novel concept. :roll:

[Beaker]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 11:49 AM']Blah blah fucking blah.
I`m starting to think Homer is a blow hard that
rather read his own words than any1 elses. 

I`m 35 years old. I haven`t been in a class for almost
half of my life. There is no need for you to think you have
to bring me "to order". If you want to take a Message Board
so seriously that you think people can`t act a little "childish"...
by posting a picture...I assume that`s what you think was "childish"...
then I`d say you are beyond a pretensious prick.
You`re a self absorbed,arrogant,super pretentious prick.
You may or not be ...but you sure come off that way. 

Anyway enough about you ...back to the topic.
I am really fed up with people like you that think the greatest
Country in the World does nothing but wrong. 

In case you haven`t noticed, the poll of this thread says  that 73.92%
of the people on this board think that the Death Penalty is "Justice"
or "A good deterrent to crime". This being a Democracy in which we live...
well then I`d say you`re out-voted.  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

And instead of telling us to go ASK Socrates (which I don`t think is possible)
or talking about metaphysics...[b]why don`t you tell me why you think it
is so wrong for a country that has practiced the Death Penalty for
over 200 YEARS to keep practicing it ?[/b]There are a few laws that I don`t agree with...but if I am caught
breaking them ...then I`ll pay for it accordingly. Every American knows
that there is a Death Penalty...and they know if you KILL some1 in cold blood
that you will be KILLED if you are found guilty by a jury of your peers.
You`ll get YEARS of appeals to prove your innocence.
How is that "barbaric" or a "small minded Government at work" when the
dumbass that commited the crime knew the LAWS were in place to begin with ?
Don`t commit the crime and you won`t have to pay the price.
Wow what a weird and novel concept. :roll:
[right][post="72589"][/post][/right][/quote]

I am only addressing this sentence, not getting into the you vs Homer thing. Just because a law has been around for a long time doesnt mean its always going to stay relevant. We are the last developed country to still enforce a death penalty. Other countries have gone away from it, why cant we? Their murder rates are no higher, and sometimes lower than ours. I think the "good" people in the society (the ones who dont commit the crimes) need to set the example to the others. Take the higher road so to speak. If we dont, how will things (like how we view life) ever change?

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Apr 7 2005, 08:27 AM']I am only addressing this sentence, not getting into the you vs Homer thing. Just because a law has been around for a long time doesnt mean its always going to stay relevant. We are the last developed country to still enforce a death penalty. Other countries have gone away from it, why cant we? Their murder rates are no higher, and sometimes lower than ours. I think the "good" people in the society (the ones who dont commit the crimes) need to set the example to the others. Take the higher road so to speak. If we dont, how will things (like how we view life) ever change?
[right][post="72606"][/post][/right][/quote]

1st off there is no Me vs Homer...


And Beaker I`ve said it in an earlier post. Do you think YOU
would be able to "take the high road" if Jessica Lunsford
was YOUR daughter or grand daughter ?
If YES then that kind of thinking amazes me.
Why show compassion to some1 that raped and killed your daughter ?
Why let them live out the rest of their days wasting away in a prison
to die of old age ? How does that benefit US as a society ?

I don`t care what other Countries do...they are not the
Greatest Country in the World...America IS.
And we do not put EVERY MURDERER TO DEATH.
Just the 1`s that commit the most heinous crimes.
Why should they get the same sentence as some1 that
commited a crime and is serving a life sentence ?
Kill 1 person or 1000 and you still get the same sentence ?

I view life as a precious thing. I think that it should be take precedence
over death (like in the Shiavo case). But when some1 kills an innocent child
or kills mutiple people...they forfiet their life. They committed these acts
agaist US as a society ...they knew that they would die if caught. And did it anyway.
Instead of blaming US ( people for the Death Penalty)..blame the REAL criminal...

[Homer_Rice]

OS;

[quote]I am really fed up with people like you that think the greatest
Country in the World does nothing but wrong.[/quote]

Listen to yourself. How you derive this from my position on the death penalty is beyond me.

On the other hand, the barbarians are at the gate in
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm"]Florida[/url].

[jza10304]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:50 AM']Why show compassion to some1 that raped and killed your daughter ?
[right][post="72615"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Because it won't bring her back.

and in reply to someone's earlier post in regards to the cost of the death penalty, getting rid of the "lawyers and appeals" is not a very good way to handle the death penalty. I think if you are going to put someone to death then you should be as thorough as possible to make sure innocent people aren't put to death.

Here are some results of studies on the cost:
[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#From%20DPIC"]www.deathpenaltyinfo.org[/url]
[quote]Tennessee Study Finds Death penalty Costly, Ineffective

A new report released by the Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury recommended changes to the stateÕs costly death penalty and called into question its effectiveness in preventing crime. The Office of Research noted that it lacked sufficient data to accurately account for the total cost of capital trials, stating that because cost and time records were not maintained, the Office of Research was unable to determine the total, comprehensive cost of the death penalty in Tennessee." Although noting that, "no reliable data exists concerning the cost of prosecution or defense of first-degree murder cases in Tennessee," the report concluded that capital murder trials are longer and more expensive at every step compared to other murder trials. In fact, the available data indicated that in capital trials, taxpayers pay half again as much as murder cases in which prosecutors seek prison terms rather than the death penalty. Findings in the report include the following:

Death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
Tennessee District Attorneys General are not consistent in their pursuit of the death penalty.
Surveys and interviews of district attorneys indicate that some prosecutors "use the death penalty as a 'bargaining chip' to secure plea bargains for lesser sentences."
Previous research provides no clear indication whether the death penalty acts as a method of crime prevention.
The Tennessee Court of Criminal Appeals reversed 29 percent of capital cases on direct appeal.
Although any traumatic trial may cause stress and pain for jurors, the victims' family, and the defendant's family, the pressure may be at its peak during death penalty trials.[/quote]

[jza10304]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 7 2005, 10:13 AM']On the other hand, the barbarians are at the gate in
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm"]Florida[/url].
[right][post="72623"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
what do you expect from Flori-duh? This coming from a lifetime resident.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:13 AM']OS;
Listen to yourself. How you derive this from my position on the death penalty is beyond me.

On the other hand, the barbarians are at the gate in
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm"]Florida[/url].
[right][post="72623"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


I`ve read some of your other posts to other threads...

It doesn`t matter ...it seems you never aswer my questions.
You just ask some irrelevant questions of your own..or try to
talk over peoples heads... :wuh:

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:14 AM']Because it won't bring her back.

and in reply to someone's earlier post in regards to the cost of the death penalty, getting rid of the "lawyers and appeals" is not a very good way to handle the death penalty.  I think if you are going to put someone to death then you should be as thorough as possible to make sure innocent people aren't put to death.

Here are some results of studies on the cost:
[url="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#From%20DPIC"]www.deathpenaltyinfo.org[/url]
[right][post="72624"][/post][/right][/quote]


Sticking their ass in jail to grow old won`t "bring her back " either.

Like I said ...if you kill 1 person or 1000 you still get the same sentence ?
Some1 convicted to life in prison for a different crime is "just as bad" ?


I don`t care about how much money it cost ...our Government waste money
on stupid shit eveyday...I would say if they go through the appeals process
and they are still put to death...well then that is tax payer money well spent. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]



[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//27.gif[/img]

[jza10304]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 10:25 AM']Sticking their ass in jail to grow old won`t "bring her back " either.

Like I said ...if you kill 1 person or 1000 you still get the same sentence ? 
Some1 convicted to life in prison for a different crime  is "just as bad" ? 
[b]I don`t care about how much money it cost ...our Government waste money
on stupid shit eveyday...I would say if they go through the appeals process
and they are still put to death...well then that is tax payer money well spent.[/b]  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//27.gif[/img]
[right][post="72632"][/post][/right][/quote]
That money could be invested in the people who still have a future (public schools, college scholarships). I think this country is on the wrong track towards its young people. We have the best universities (no surprise when $ is involved) and one of the worst public education systems of the developed nations.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:28 AM']That money could be invested in the people who still have a future (public schools, college scholarships).  I think this country is on the wrong track towards its young people.  We have the best universities (no surprise when $ is involved) and one of the worst public education systems of the developed nations.
[right][post="72634"][/post][/right][/quote]




Our best universities are filled with people from those "worst"
public schools are they not ?
name some coutries that have better school sytems and don`t have
the death penalty... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]

And of course a death penalty case cost more because we give the person
more chances to prove their innocence.
Is America perfect ? ...no.
Is it half as bad as "some" people act ? ...no.


Anyway like I said ....you guys are saying that some1 who is setenced to life
in prison for a LESSER crime ...deserves the same as some1 who kills
in cold blood or the kills mutiple people ? How does that make sense ?
Take into account that not ALL murderers are put to death...


I did a quick yahoo search for "sentenced to death in the U.S. in 2004 ?"

It brought up the D.C. snipers.
It has 2 people that bombed the USS Cole.
It had David Westerfield (the guy that killed the van Dam girl.)
It has Scott Peterson...these people should grow old in prison ?

Oh and here is a nice little tidbit ....

[quote]The number of people sentenced to die reached a[b] 30-year low in 2003[/b], [b]when the death row population fell for the third straight year[/b], the government reported.

Last year, 144 inmates in 25 states were given the death penalty, [b]24 fewer than in 2002 and less than half the average of 297 between 1994 and 2000[/b], the Justice Department said.[/quote]


[url="http://www.civilrights.org/issues/cj/details.cfm?id=26150"]http://www.civilrights.org/issues/cj/details.cfm?id=26150[/url]


Here is another ....

[quote]2004 Cornell University study showed that [b]2.5%[/b] of murderers convicted nationwide were sentenced to the death penalty[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punis...e_United_States[/url]

[jza10304]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 12:44 PM']Our best universities are filled with people from those "worst"
public schools are they not ? 
name some coutries that have better school sytems and don`t have
the death penalty... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img] [/quote]

I know that kids in our public school systems are lagging behind in math and science. Hell even in private schools. When you are in a college class (undergrad or grad) you can almost always tell which students had their education in the us form those who received it abroad. This isn't fair because not everyone from other countries gets to come to the universities in the U.S., so you tend to get the smart-ones or those with the means to come over.

I was just referring to my experience. I know of plenty of kids who came from Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Chile, and other parts of South & Central America and the Caribbean who when they got to this country had to go ahead of their math courses for the grade because they had already covered all of that. The only problem they have is with the language, but since math and science are universal, then skip right ahead of everyone else. This is at the high school and middle school level.

[Jamie_B]

When I lived in Germany, my father was in charge of a clinic on one of the bases in Nuremberg (and they were split into several small bases, not just 1 for the city)... he had a medic that worked under him that was one of the most soft hearted kind men you’d ever meet. This gentlemen had a girlfriend break up with him and he lost control of his good senses (and I mean in the temporary insanity way) and killed a German cab driver. This was completely out of character for him, its not something that anyone would have ever suspected. My father had a hard time with it for a little while because he was in charge of this gentleman so to speak. The man is now serving a life sentence because the military court system is much harsher than our own.

I’m not sure this is really relevant to the death penalty conversation, but some are acting as if ALL murders are cold blooded, and incapable of appreciating human life. While I’m not defending the act of the man, and he realizes what he did was wrong, he just doesn’t remember doing it, sometimes circumstances a greater than "he's just cold blooded".


Besides I really think my Browns idea is the best one, I mean come on thats a fate worse than death.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:18 AM']I`ve read some of your other posts to other threads...

It doesn`t matter ...it seems you never aswer my questions.
You just ask some irrelevant questions of your own..or try to
talk over peoples heads...[/quote]

Which questions? I've stated my thoughts on the death penalty pretty clearly a couple of times. State 'em here and I'll address them specifically.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 7 2005, 03:38 PM']Which questions? I've stated my thoughts on the death penalty pretty clearly a couple of times. State 'em here and I'll address them specifically.
[right][post="72745"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Where ?
They are all through my posts...

[quote]Do you think YOU would be able to "take the high road"
if Jessica Lunsford was YOUR daughter or grand daughter ?
Or if the DC snipers killed your wife ?

Why show compassion to some1 that raped and killed your daughter ?
Why let them live out the rest of their days wasting away in a prison
to die of old age ? How does that benefit US as a society ?[/quote]


[quote]Why should they get the same sentence as some1 that
commited a crime and is serving a life sentence ?[/quote]


[quote]Anyway like I said ....you guys are saying that some1 who is setenced to life
in prison for a LESSER crime ...deserves the same as some1 who kills
in cold blood or the kills mutiple people ? How does that make sense ?[/quote]

[quote]I did a quick yahoo search for "sentenced to death in the U.S. in 2004 ?"
It brought up the D.C. snipers.
It has 2 people that bombed the USS Cole.
It had David Westerfield (the guy that killed the van Dam girl.)
It has Scott Peterson...these people should grow old in prison ?[/quote]


And like I have stated many times...we don`t put EVERY MURDERER to death.



[quote]2004 Cornell University study showed that 2.5% of murderers convicted nationwide were sentenced to the death penalty[/quote]


So I really don`t see why people are upset about putting
2.5 % of murderers to death that are more of a disease than a human ?
I guess you`d have to lose a family member or friend 1st.
And yes I have lost some1 to a murderer...so I speak what I feel.

[Beaker]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 7 2005, 01:50 PM']1st off there is no Me vs Homer...
And Beaker I`ve said it in an earlier post. [b]Do you think YOU
would be able to "take the high road" if Jessica Lunsford
was YOUR daughter or grand daughter ? [/b]If YES then that kind of thinking amazes me. 
Why show compassion to some1 that raped and killed your daughter ?
Why let them live out the rest of their days wasting away in a prison
to die of old age ? How does that benefit US as a society ?

[b]I don`t care what other Countries do...they are not the
Greatest Country in the World...America IS. [/b]And we do not put EVERY MURDERER TO DEATH.
Just the 1`s that commit the most heinous crimes.
Why should they get the same sentence as some1 that
commited a crime and  is serving a life sentence ?
Kill 1 person or 1000 and you still get the same sentence ? 

I view life as a precious thing. I think that it should be take precedence
over death (like in the Shiavo case). But when some1 kills an innocent child
or kills mutiple people...they forfiet their life. They committed these acts
agaist US as a society ...they knew that they would die if caught. And did it anyway.
[b]Instead of blaming US ( people for the Death Penalty)..blame the REAL criminal...[/b]
[right][post="72615"][/post][/right][/quote]

First, as father of a 6 yr old daughter, I dont even want to think of losing her, but if I did, I would be devastated, angry and grief stricken...but I still dont want someone killed in her name.

Second, America is not the greatest country because we still enforce the death penalty. My point there was that we have been shown by other countries that enforcing it really doesnt change things.

Third, I am not blaming you nor anybody else...just sharing my insights and feelings about the matter. Those are purely my opinions, and I dont blame you for yours.

I am not a pacifist. I have just been struggling with the prevailing notion that revenge helps anything. An eye for an eye has kept the Middle East where it is for way too long. As humans...not just Americans...we need to change this paradigm towards each other. We are at the point now in our evolution where conscious thought and goodness should be able to override our tendency towards reacting on instinct. We need to start repairing ourselves spiritually (note, I didnt say religiously) so that the whole world changes for the better. Its gotta start somewhere, and the old ways havent been working so well lately.

[STRAYCAT]

Beaker..i think the reason we are having so much crime is because we do nothing but slap their wrist.It's time to get tough and follow it out.

[Jason]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:50 PM']First, as father of a 6 yr old daughter, I dont even want to think of losing her, but if I did, I would be devastated, angry and grief stricken...but I still dont want someone killed in her name.

[b]Second, America is not the greatest country because we still enforce the death penalty.[/b] My point there was that we have been shown by other countries that enforcing it really doesnt change things.

Third, I am not blaming you nor anybody else...just sharing my insights and feelings about the matter. Those are purely my opinions, and I dont blame you for yours.

I am not a pacifist. I have just been struggling with the prevailing notion that revenge helps anything. An eye for an eye has kept the Middle East where it is for way too long. As humans...not just Americans...we need to change this paradigm towards each other. We are at the point now in our evolution where conscious thought and goodness should be able to override our tendency towards reacting on instinct. We need to start repairing ourselves spiritually (note, I didnt say  religiously) so that the whole world changes for the better. Its gotta start somewhere, and the old ways havent been working so well lately.
[right][post="72775"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Yes and no. The problem is we have the death penalty for unborn children whose only crime is being inconvenient.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:50 PM']First, as father of a 6 yr old daughter, I dont even want to think of losing her, but if I did, I would be devastated, angry and grief stricken...but I still dont want someone killed in her name.

Second, America is not the greatest country because we still enforce the death penalty. My point there was that we have been shown by other countries that enforcing it really doesnt change things.

Third, I am not blaming you nor anybody else...just sharing my insights and feelings about the matter. Those are purely my opinions, and I dont blame you for yours.

I am not a pacifist. I have just been struggling with the prevailing notion that revenge helps anything. An eye for an eye has kept the Middle East where it is for way too long. As humans...not just Americans...we need to change this paradigm towards each other. We are at the point now in our evolution where conscious thought and goodness should be able to override our tendency towards reacting on instinct. We need to start repairing ourselves spiritually (note, I didnt say  religiously) so that the whole world changes for the better. Its gotta start somewhere, and the old ways havent been working so well lately.
[right][post="72775"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:50 PM']First, as father of a 6 yr old daughter, I dont even want to think of losing her, but if I did, I would be devastated, angry and grief stricken...but I still dont want someone killed in her name.

Second, America is not the greatest country because we still enforce the death penalty. My point there was that we have been shown by other countries that enforcing it really doesnt change things.

Third, I am not blaming you nor anybody else...just sharing my insights and feelings about the matter. Those are purely my opinions, and I dont blame you for yours.

I am not a pacifist. I have just been struggling with the prevailing notion that revenge helps anything. An eye for an eye has kept the Middle East where it is for way too long. As humans...not just Americans...we need to change this paradigm towards each other. We are at the point now in our evolution where conscious thought and goodness should be able to override our tendency towards reacting on instinct. We need to start repairing ourselves spiritually (note, I didnt say  religiously) so that the whole world changes for the better. Its gotta start somewhere, and the old ways havent been working so well lately.
[right][post="72775"][/post][/right][/quote]



Well then you are a "better" man than me. I have a 14 year old daughter.
And if some1 did anything to her...I would want to kill them with my
own hands.
As far as "killed in her name" goes...the persons name would be
4-ever attached to hers anyway...and I rather know that he was
burning in hell than reading in jail...

As far as this "not being the Greatest Country because we practice the Death
Penalty"...well we BECAME the Greatest Country in the world while having the
Death Pealty...I would have to agree with Jason...I think the fact we allow
people to use abortion as birth control is far more damaging. We have
used the Death Penalty since before we became a nation...abortion
was just leagalized within the last 30 something years.

It is called the Death "Penalty" because you have to do something wrong to
receive it... abortion is when a woman feels like she did something wrong...

Anyway even with the Death Penalty and abortion in place...I still beleive
this is the Greatest Country in the World...


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] @ myself ...