Death Penalty - Justice or Barbaric

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 5 2005, 07:38 AM']Imported from the Schiavo thread, in which I said:

A couple of decades ago, when I still had some stuff to strut, I dated a very hot reporter gal, until shortly after this incident:

We were talking politics and she said (I paraphrase closely): "I know this is inconsistent, I am pro-abortion, but also support the death penalty." I replied that this did not seem inconsistent to me, as she appeared to be willing to"kill 'em early or kill 'em late." Needless to say, this endeared me to her even further. 

It's possible to build a secular argument to be both pro-life and anti-death penalty. That's because the principle involved isn't solely a religious one. The idea of mercy is not purely religious, and mercy need not always imply forgiveness, though that is a virtue, too. IMO, with the exception of one class of crime, a government that imposes a death penalty as a matter of retribution is a "small-minded" government, and less worthy than a government which is merciful with respect to life and still "Just" with respect to securing the safety of a society. It simply it not necessary, unless the crime endangers the existence of the government itself.[right][post="71969"][/post][/right][/quote]


1st off ....you broke up with a "hott" girl because of her
views on the death penalty and abortion ?


And what benefit is it to house and feed some1 like Timothy McVeigh,
Ted Bundy or Scott Peterson?



[quote]Well, okay. But that makes the government a killer, too. And in our form of government, that means, by implication, that its citizens are killers as well.

I think this is what makes the Schiavo case so polarizing; on the one hand no one likes to see a person in the condition she was in; on the other hand, abetting in her demise taints the conscience of some people. (Forget the "opportunists" that such a circus brings into the ring, their only principle is to have no principles. And of course, if you keep you finger to the wind, you might reap the Whirlwind, as that pandering slut Tom DeLay is finding out.)[/quote]

If YOU do the crime YOU sentence YOURSELF to death.
Our Government "kills" people that commit the worst crimes known to man.
We don`t give EVERY1 that kills some1 the Death Penalty.
You have to be convicted of some serious shit (Scott Peterson) to be given
the Death Penalty.
I am for the Death Penalty ...because I don`t see the need to pay to keep
a cool blooded murderer alive. They have the highest disregard for life...

I have a problem with abortion mostly because it is used to much as a form
of birth control. And the "choice" is the woman`s and no1 elses. If the man
wants her to have an abortion she can say no and he has to pay child
support for the baby.
If the man wants her to have the baby ...she can have an abortion and he has
no say so.



none of these views are based on religious beliefs ....

[Homer_Rice]

[quote]1st off ....you broke up with a "hott" girl because of her
views on the death penalty and abortion ?[/quote]

Pretty girls are a dime a dozen; gimme one with a beautiful soul. For once, I was thinking with the right head. (It wasn't only that issue.)

[quote]And what benefit is it to house and feed some1 like Timothy McVeigh,
Ted Bundy or Scott Peterson?[/quote]

It's not an economic question. My previous post had nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the relationship between mercy and justice.

[quote]I am for the Death Penalty ...because I don`t see the need to pay to keep
a cool blooded murderer alive. [b]They have the highest disregard for life[/b]...[/quote]

And so, you are different, how? Is your regard for life a variable dependent upon the depravity of other people? How depraved is it to bracket this within the context of economic considerations?

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 5 2005, 01:41 PM']Pretty girls are a dime a dozen; gimme one with a beautiful soul. For once, I was thinking with the right head. (It wasn't only that issue.)
It's not an economic question. My previous post had nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the relationship between mercy and justice.
And so, you are different, how? Is your regard for life a variable dependent upon the depravity of other people? How depraved is it to bracket this within the context of economic considerations?
[right][post="72053"][/post][/right][/quote]



Where did I say it was a economic issue ?
I said what benefit is it ( to our society) to keep some1 that kills
people in cold blood housed and fed ?
Just because I said something about keeping them alive doesn`t
mean that I was worried about the money...

I didn`t do what TimothyMcVeigh did ...or what Couey did to
Jessica Lunsford.
And you actually try to lower me to their level because I think the
world is better off without them ? ....uhhh ok. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

[jza10304]

[img]http://www.straighttalkers.com/jesus.gif[/img]
"ONE OF THOSE RADICALS WITH A BEARD AND LONG HAIR."

[BengalsCat]

What does killing jesus have to do with killing convicted murderes?????

[jza10304]

[quote name='BengalsCat' date='Apr 5 2005, 03:42 PM']What does killing jesus have to do with killing convicted murderes?????
[right][post="72063"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I found it interesting that people had mentioned crucifiction as a form of execution. I wonder what would have happened if Jesus had an appeal?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote]And you actually try to lower me to their level because I think the
world is better off without them?[/quote]

No personal offense intended, oldschooler, so don't get your knickers in a twist. You choose your "level," not me.

[quote]Where did I say it was a economic issue?[/quote]

Once again, the premise of my argument was the relationship between mercy and justice. The key premise underpinning your argument was based on economics: "house and feed", "pay," "pay."

If it's not economics, then what is it? What justifies putting a person, who is helpless and completely in your power, to death?

[BengalsCat]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 5 2005, 03:57 PM']No personal offense intended, oldschooler, so don't get your knickers in a twist. You choose your "level," not me.
Once again, the premise of my argument was the relationship between mercy and justice. The key premise underpinning your argument was based on economics: "house and feed", "pay," "pay."

If it's not economics, then what is it? What justifies putting a person, who is helpless and completely in your power, to death?
[right][post="72070"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Personaly u dont have much an argument man... u just keep switching it.. what is the purpose of keeping a killer alive like manson dahmer or anyone else when they killed multiple people and they are now just sitting on death row sucking up tax dollars????? How can u say that is mercy to who. we could use that money to feed the poor... that is mercy.... killing a killer is a mercy in it self u release them to be judged by what ever waits beyond.......

[Jason]

[quote name='jza10304' date='Apr 5 2005, 03:51 PM']I found it interesting that people had mentioned crucifiction as a form of execution.  I wonder what would have happened if Jesus had an appeal?
[right][post="72069"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I mentioned crucufixion because it was one of the most brutal forms of execution I could think of, and would be more of a deterrent than our humane mathods. Not that I support that. But I don't see the death penalty as a deterrent, so much as punishment and prevention of repeat offenses by that person.

BTW, Jesus could have stopped the whole process at any time if He wanted to.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 5 2005, 02:57 PM']No personal offense intended, oldschooler, so don't get your knickers in a twist. You choose your "level," not me.[right][post="72070"][/post][/right][/quote]





My "level" (of thiking) is that EVERY1 knows that there
is a LAW that says if you take a life in cold blood you
pay with your own. It`s not like it`s a new concept.
Capital puishment has been around for awhile...years even.


[quote]Once again, the premise of my argument was the relationship between mercy and justice. The key premise underpinning your argument was based on economics: "house and feed", "pay," "pay."

If it's not economics, then what is it? What justifies putting a person, who is helpless and completely in your power, to death?[/quote]


Why have mercy on a serial killer ? Why have compassion for a pedophile
that rapes and kills your kid or any1`s kid for that matter ?
You`re trying to tell me that you would feel like this is a better society
and that it would be beneficial to our society if we just kept them locked up
and took care of them til they died of natural causes ?
Why show mercy to some1 that never showed it to the REAL victim ?!
You`re trying to make cold blooded killers sound like THEY are being victimized
by our "small minded" Governement ...gimme a friggin break. :roll:

[Homer_Rice]

[quote]...gimme a friggin break.[/quote]

I don't need to, you're giving yourself one. Alas!

[Beaker]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 5 2005, 08:20 PM']You`re trying to make cold blooded killers sound like THEY are being victimized
by our "small minded" Governement  ...gimme a friggin break. :roll:
[right][post="72084"][/post][/right][/quote]

I think youre taking it wrong. I think Homer just has respect for ALL life, and doesnt think its right for ANYONE to take it. Thats how I took his posts.

[Guest BengalBacker]

Not all life is precious. Some people do things so heinous it's an injustice not to kill them.

Let's say my mom, my wife, and my daughter go shopping. Someone abducts, tortures, rapes and murders them. My government damn well better kill them.

Call it whatever you like. Revenge, justice, barbaric, whatever. Anyone who commits such acts gives up their right to exist and only an unjust society with a twisted sense of right and wrong wouldn't put them to death.

Save your compassion for their victims and rid the world of these vermin. I don't care if it's a deterrent or not. They don't deserve to breathe.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Apr 5 2005, 06:20 PM']I think youre taking it wrong. I think Homer just has respect for ALL life, and doesnt think its right for ANYONE to take it. Thats how I took his posts.
[right][post="72119"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



I have a respect for ALL life too.
That`s why I think when some1 takes an innocent life
of a child or mutiple lives in a cold blooded manner ...
that they DESERVE to pay with their own.


I never made John Couey rape and kill Jessica Lunsford.
It was HIS CHOICE to take her life...and he knew that it was something
that if he was caught he would have to pay for with his own life.

I have a feeling "some" people wouldn`t be so merciful and compassionate
if Jessica Lusford was THEIR daughter or grandchild...

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='Apr 6 2005, 01:19 AM']Not all life is precious. Some people do things so heinous it's an injustice not to kill them.

Let's say my mom, my wife, and my daughter go shopping. Someone abducts, tortures, rapes and murders them. My government damn well better kill them.

Call it whatever you like. Revenge, justice, barbaric, whatever. Anyone who commits such acts gives up their right to exist and only an unjust society with a twisted sense of right and wrong wouldn't put them to death.

Save your compassion for their victims and rid the world of these vermin. I don't care if it's a deterrent or not. They don't deserve to breathe.
[right][post="72182"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


[img]http://www.divizion-wiking.com/boite%20a%20images/smiley/clap%20clap.gif[/img]

[Homer_Rice]

Wow! If I thought like that, I'd want to wash my conscience out with soap. (I'd also work on the logical inconsistencies.)

Beaker's assessment is right, BTW.

The universal principle is [b]always[/b] ontologically prior to the particular.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 09:12 AM']Wow! If I thought like that, I'd want to wash my conscience out with soap.
[right][post="72212"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



I think you need it...enjoy.

[img]http://angelicdreamz.com/store/Sonoma/sutd_bitch_sho_drama/drama_queen_bar_soap.jpg[/img]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Apr 6 2005, 09:12 AM']Wow! If I thought like that, I'd want to wash my conscience out with soap. (I'd also work on the logical inconsistencies.)

Beaker's assessment is right, BTW.

The universal principle is [b]always[/b] ontologically prior to the particular.
[right][post="72212"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

huh?!?

backer said if his wife, mother and daughter were kidnapped, torchered, raped, then killed, he simply wants his government to take care of the problem... what the hell is wrong w/ that statement... i believe he meant that if they didn't, he would... i know i would, if the gov't didn't do anything..

i have absolutely no simpathy for someone that can kill in cold blood, nor do i feel they can be rehabilitated at that point, b/c it takes a cold muthafucker to kill in cold blood... a couple of "intervention" sessions won't do anything, and i don't trust people like that, if he had kids to worry about...

in other words, backer, OS, or myself doesn't need to clean our conscience... we have no sympathy for fucks like that...

[Guest BadassBengal]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 5 2005, 03:20 PM']My "level" (of thiking) is that EVERY1 knows that there
is a LAW that says if you take a life in cold blood you 
pay with your own. It`s not like it`s a new concept.
Capital puishment has been around for awhile...years even. 
Why have mercy on a serial killer ? Why have compassion for a pedophile
that rapes and kills your kid or any1`s  kid for that matter ?
You`re trying to tell me that you would feel like this is a better society
and that it would be beneficial to our society if we just kept them locked up
and took care of them til they died of natural causes ?
Why show mercy to some1 that never showed it to the REAL victim ?!
You`re trying to make cold blooded killers sound like THEY are being victimized
by our "small minded" Governement  ...gimme a friggin break. :roll:
[right][post="72084"][/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]

The arguments agaisnt the death penalty are just... stupid, IMO.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:36 AM']huh?!?

backer said if his wife, mother and daughter were kidnapped, torchered, raped, then killed, he simply wants  his government to take care of the problem... what the hell is wrong w/ that statement... i believe he meant that if they didn't, he would... i know i would, if the gov't didn't do anything..

i have absolutely no simpathy for someone that can kill in cold blood, [b]nor do i feel they can be rehabilitated at that point[/b], b/c it takes a cold muthafucker to kill in cold blood... a couple of "intervention" sessions won't do anything, and i don't trust people like that, if he had kids to worry about...

in other words, backer, OS, or myself doesn't need to clean our conscience... we have no sympathy for fucks like that...
[right][post="72222"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


You might change your mind after reading this,

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/"]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/[/url]

He was a cold blooded killer that killed a judge. Change is possible, imho.

[Guest BadassBengal]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 6 2005, 09:30 AM']I think you need it...enjoy.

[img]http://angelicdreamz.com/store/Sonoma/sutd_bitch_sho_drama/drama_queen_bar_soap.jpg[/img]
[right][post="72219"][/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Apr 6 2005, 09:45 AM']You might change your mind after reading this,

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/"]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/[/url]

He was a cold blooded killer that killed a judge. Change is possible, imho.
[right][post="72229"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

i respectfully disagree...

would you leave your wife/girlfriend w/ this guy? do u trust him? Is it possible that he could be rehabilitated imo? very little chance, but there is a chance... would i be willing to let him out in society (if i were a judge)? HHHEEELLLLLLLLL NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

<edit> and the guys that go from a killer to a bible beater in jail scare me the most... it's not that believing in something (especially God) is bad, but that big of a change leads me to be suspicious of why they made such a change...

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Apr 6 2005, 09:45 AM']You might change your mind after reading this,

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/"]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/[/url]

He was a cold blooded killer that killed a judge. Change is possible, imho.
[right][post="72229"][/post][/right][/quote]


Excuse me while I be a smartass for a second Jamie.


[quote]Brian Nichols. A man being escorted into court for trial of RAPE Friday stole a gun, then killed the judge, a court stenographer and a sheriff's deputy before fleeing.[/quote]

After that he killed 1 more and beat several others.
Wow he killed 4 people ...beat several others and let this
woman live...yeah he must have changed or maybe he just got
tired and decided to take a break ?

[url="http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/11120935.htm"]http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/11120935.htm[/url]

Ok I`m done now. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img]







Thanks for indulging me...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:50 AM']i respectfully disagree...

would you leave your wife/girlfriend w/ this guy? do u trust him? Is it possible that he could be rehabilitated imo? very little chance, but there is a chance... would i be willing to let him out in society (if i were a judge)? HHHEEELLLLLLLLL NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

<edit> and the guys that go from a killer to a bible beater in jail scare me the most... it's not that believing in something (especially God) is bad, but that big of a change leads me to be suspicious of why they made such a change...
[right][post="72232"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


I respectfully disagree as well, while murder is a bit of a stretch from this,
My 1st roommate was a alcoholic and to the degree that he went to rehab for it, rehab didn’t help him, all he did in there to get alcohol was sift Nyquil through bread. When he gave his life to God he completely stopped, went cold turkey, never touched it again.

Sorry I know this sounds preachy to some, and its not intended that way, just intended as another perspective.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Apr 6 2005, 10:58 AM']Excuse me while I be a smartass for a second Jamie. 
After that he killed 1 more and beat several others.
Wow he killed 4 people ...beat several others and let this
woman live...yeah he must have changed or maybe he just got
tired and decided to take a break  ?

[url="http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/11120935.htm"]http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/11120935.htm[/url]

Ok I`m done now.  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img]
Thanks for indulging me...
[right][post="72233"][/post][/right][/quote]


Yeah yeah I missread it. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img] The point still stands though. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]