American students kicked off campus for wearing American flag shirts

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1273346876' post='887114']
You are making broad assumptions about a very wide variety of people. Yes there are a few kooks in any political movement. To assume the few kooks are representative of the entire group is in fact intellectually dishonest.

It is also intellectually dishonest and quite lazy to infer that someone wearing a flag shirt is attempting to incite something. Even if they were trying to make a political statement (they probably were) it is their right to do so. Freedom of speech applies to all speech, not just speech you happen to agree with. No one wearing something as simple as a flag t-shirt should be asked to turn it inside out. If the school wants to cover its ass then have uniforms.
[/quote]

I actually haven't even been talking about the tea party rallies at all.. Again you show that you haven't even bothered to read what I have posted. Why should I even bother responding to you?

Secondly.. There is no such thing as freedom of speech in a public school. The school has a right to limit political or social expression in ways they see fit.. Fuck, some schools go so far as to mandate uniforms.

Surely you know all this. Which again leads me to the conclusion you are being intellectually dishonest, rather than simply an idiot..

Next time give me a reason to respond.. Try to make a rational debate instead of the bullshit you are slinging now.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1273347450' post='887118']
I actually haven't even been talking about the tea party rallies at all.. Again you show that you haven't even bothered to read what I have posted. Why should I even bother responding to you?

Secondly.. There is no such thing as freedom of speech in a public school. The school has a right to limit political or social expression in ways they see fit.. Fuck, some schools go so far as to mandate uniforms.

Surely you know all this. Which again leads me to the conclusion you are being intellectually dishonest, rather than simply an idiot..

Next time give me a reason to respond.. Try to make a rational debate instead of the bullshit you are slinging now.
[/quote]

Wow...

My reference to the tea party people was because the issues and political nuances are related and symptoms of the overall problem with politics today. You are clearly part of that problem. If you want a "rational debate" leave the condescending smug tone and insults out.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1273348435' post='887121']
Wow...

My reference to the tea party people was because the issues and political nuances are related and symptoms of the overall problem with politics today. You are clearly part of that problem. If you want a "rational debate" leave the condescending smug tone and insults out.
[/quote]

Who was it that started this by telling me to "take your political blinders off and think for yourself"?

Pretty insulting huh?

Don't start none won't be none.

And sorry, but attaking a viewpoint I haven't even expressed as if it is relevant to the discussion at hand is either ignorant, dishonest or lazy..

You decide, and when [i]you[/i] are ready to have an honest and mature debate, come back and let me know.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1273328233' post='887044']
Fair enough, but I do believe I have served of sorts, but I get the context now.

I think their intent is important here, I don't believe their intent was principled.
[/quote]



Then what, in your opinion, constitutes principled protest?

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1273348990' post='887123']
Who was it that started this by telling me to "take your political blinders off and think for yourself"?

Pretty insulting huh?

Don't start none won't be none.

And sorry, but attaking a viewpoint I haven't even expressed as if it is relevant to the discussion at hand is either ignorant, dishonest or lazy..

You decide, and when [i]you[/i] are ready to have an honest and mature debate, come back and let me know.
[/quote]

I am not sure what you consider insulting, but it certainly did not rise to the level you took it to. Different strokes I suppose.

My reference to the tea party thing was in response to your post about hyperbole and threats. You left question marks at the end of each word. I therefore provided examples of my assertions.

As for the topic at hand, to insinuate that these kids were attempting to start something is labeling them as a threat. Anyone not blinded by politics should be offended when the flag of our country is considered politically incorrect or even treated as "hate speech." I am not saying that you specifically think the flag is bad, but it seems like the administrators in this school whether by their own opinion or fearing the backlash from groups that do think that way treat the flags on these students apparel that way.

As to our other posts, if I did paint you with too broad a brush I apologize.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1273349087' post='887124']
Then what, in your opinion, constitutes principled protest?
[/quote]


That kind of goes to the heart of the issue doesn't it? If these students wore peace signs to make a statement about the ongoing wars I can't see the administrators taking the same action. Seems hypocritical to me.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1273350249' post='887127']
I am not sure what you consider insulting, but it certainly did not rise to the level you took it to. Different strokes I suppose.

My reference to the tea party thing was in response to your post about hyperbole and threats. You left question marks at the end of each word. I therefore provided examples of my assertions.

As for the topic at hand, to insinuate that these kids were attempting to start something is labeling them as a threat. Anyone not blinded by politics should be offended when the flag of our country is considered politically incorrect or even treated as "hate speech." I am not saying that you specifically think the flag is bad, but it seems like the administrators in this school whether by their own opinion or fearing the backlash from groups that do think that way treat the flags on these students apparel that way.

As to our other posts, if I did paint you with too broad a brush I apologize.
[/quote]


Apology accepted. The slate is clean and we can continue as adults, no?

I was confused by what you were calling threats.. It seemed silly to label the children as such, or even think others had.

School administrators limit clothing and other items that they deem may be obstructive to a peaceful learning environment. Lots of symbols and clothing are frequently banned in schools because they are considered distracting or something that may cause some sort of strife.

Girls in my school were not permitted to wear skirts shorter than their knees because they knew it would get in the way of me focusing on my teachers and the school work (didn't work, I stared anyway hoping for a rare peek of the promised land).

No one has suggested that wearing the flags at the school is wrong.. It was determined by the school that this kind of political demonstration would be inconducive to a peaceful learning environment [i]on that particular day[/i]. They made it known to the children that they could wear the shirts on any other day.

The administrators have the right and even the responibility to make that decision. Some kids were made to go home in my HS because they thought it was funny to wear KKK robes on halloween. It's possible they meant no real harm (although they looked pretty authentic).. I think that was the right call.

Without being there it's hard to condemn the administrators for making the decision they did.. And from the sound of it, students were offended... Whether they should be or not is not a question the school is there to solve.. Providing a safe and affective learning environment is.. I think that is where their motivation lies.

I guess I think people are making too much of this.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1273350920' post='887130']
Apology accepted. The slate is clean and we can continue as adults, no?

I was confused by what you were calling threats.. It seemed silly to label the children as such, or even think others had.

School administrators limit clothing and other items that they deem may be obstructive to a peaceful learning environment. Lots of symbols and clothing are frequently banned in schools because they are considered distracting or something that may cause some sort of strife.

Girls in my school were not permitted to wear skirts shorter than their knees because they knew it would get in the way of me focusing on my teachers and the school work (didn't work, I stared anyway hoping for a rare peek of the promised land).

No one has suggested that wearing the flags at the school is wrong.. It was determined by the school that this kind of political demonstration would be inconducive to a peaceful learning environment [i]on that particular day[/i]. They made it known to the children that they could wear the shirts on any other day.

The administrators have the right and even the responibility to make that decision. Some kids were made to go home in my HS because they thought it was funny to wear KKK robes on halloween. It's possible they meant no real harm (although they looked pretty authentic).. I think that was the right call.

Without being there it's hard to condemn the administrators for making the decision they did.. And from the sound of it, students were offended... Whether they should be or not is not a question the school is there to solve.. Providing a safe and affective learning environment is.. I think that is where their motivation lies.

I guess I think people are making too much of this.
[/quote]

I see your point. I disagree that an American flag should be considered disruptive on any day but that is just an opinion.

I do agree with your point about uniforms. I am a big proponent of school uniforms.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1273351227' post='887132']
I see your point. I disagree that an American flag should be considered disruptive on any day but that is just an opinion.

I do agree with your point about uniforms. I am a big proponent of school uniforms.
[/quote]


You are right, The American Flag should never be a point of contention.. I totally and wholeheartedly agree.. It speaks to the fucked up world we live in that you alluded to earlier.

Unfortunately things are the way they are.. I for one would not want to be a Principal at a HS (or any other school for that matter).

I also agree with uniforms.. Having "fashion" in school creates so many barriers socially and academically it's hard to even justify not having them.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1273351573' post='887134']
You are right, The American Flag should never be a point of contention.. I totally and wholeheartedly agree.. It speaks to the fucked up world we live in that you alluded to earlier.

Unfortunately things are the way they are.. I for one would not want to be a Principal at a HS (or any other school for that matter).

I also agree with uniforms.. Having "fashion" in school creates so many barriers socially and academically it's hard to even justify not having them.
[/quote]


My wife attended MU in Oxford and got a degree in education. She taught for a year and went back to school to get a master's and PHD. I remember how miserable she was at that job. It was pretty startling.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1273352379' post='887137']
My wife attended MU in Oxford and got a degree in education. She taught for a year and went back to school to get a master's and PHD. I remember how miserable she was at that job. It was pretty startling.
[/quote]

I graduated from Talawanda in Oxford.. Small world.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1273352802' post='887141']
I graduated from Talawanda in Oxford.. Small world.
[/quote]

Small world indeed. We still make it a point to go to Oxford when we are in Ohio. Somewhere on the covered bridge out on 732 is the spot we scratched our initials the year we met. We still haven't found them again, but we look every time.

Now I want a Phan Shin eggroll.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1273354218' post='887145']
Small world indeed. We still make it a point to go to Oxford when we are in Ohio. Somewhere on the covered bridge out on 732 is the spot we scratched our initials the year we met. We still haven't found them again, but we look every time.
[b]
Now I want a Phan Shin eggroll.[/b]
[/quote]


Fuck yeah! I worked there washing dishes from the age of 15 til I graduated HS and left for boot camp. The food is excellent.. (Fucking Cambodian slave drivers!)

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1273349087' post='887124']
Then what, in your opinion, constitutes principled protest?
[/quote]


Not trying to incite.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1273355721' post='887151']
Not trying to incite.
[/quote]


The premise of protest is to incite an emotional response to add to or slow momentum of policy, protocol, and/or beliefs, and, in the hopes of the protesters' 'side', enact the change they deem necessary, therefore no protest is principled by your definition. With all due respect, you are trying to play semantics in this particular issue. As I said in a previous post, nothing would make me happier if all protests had this much decorum and so little vitriol. This was a quiet symbol of unity of a belief in the rule of the law of the land, until an agent of political correctness got scared of what might happen. No where I read mentioned any derogatory terms, no yelling sophomoric chants, and no one physically barring people that disagreed with them from attending classes or from even entering an intelligent exchange of ideas. The country, as a whole, would much be better served if all protests were this 'unprincipled'.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1273357514' post='887159']
The premise of protest is to incite an emotional response to add to or slow momentum of policy, protocol, and/or beliefs, and, in the hopes of the protesters' 'side', enact the change they deem necessary, therefore no protest is principled by your definition. With all due respect, you are trying to play semantics in this particular issue. As I said in a previous post, nothing would make me happier if all protests had this much decorum and so little vitriol. This was a quiet symbol of unity of a belief in the rule of the law of the land, until an agent of political correctness got scared of what might happen. No where I read mentioned any derogatory terms, no yelling sophomoric chants, and no one physically barring people that disagreed with them from attending classes or from even entering an intelligent exchange of ideas. The country, as a whole, would much be better served if all protests were this 'unprincipled'.
[/quote]


Semantics? Hardly.

You'll also note that peaceful assembly (ie:protest) is not allowed on high school campuses.

Wearing the colors to be prideful of your country is one thing, wearing them to incite is quite another, and thats not semantics.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1273357858' post='887160']
Semantics? Hardly.

You'll also note that peaceful assembly (ie:protest) is not allowed on high school campuses.

Wearing the colors to be prideful of your country is one thing, wearing them to incite is quite another, and thats not semantics.
[/quote]


There is nothing that suggests they wore them to incite anything. I have no idea what their intentions were, but a bunch of kids wearing t shirts with flags on them is pretty innocuous.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1273358537' post='887165']
There is nothing that suggests they wore them to incite anything. I have no idea what their intentions were, but a bunch of kids wearing t shirts with flags on them is pretty innocuous.
[/quote]


[quote]"We're happy about Arizona's law, and you bet we're fired up," said Julie Fagerstrom, whose son, Dominic Maciel, wore one of the shirts[/quote]

We read that very differently then.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1273358726' post='887167']
We read that very differently then.
[/quote]

That still doesn't rise to the level of inciting anything. So someone's parent holds a different opinion than yours, that doesn't mean they are automatically up to something. You and I disagree a lot, that doesn't mean I think you are a bad person. It also doesn't call your motives into question.

[|Lucid|]

I still must stick by the opinion that a public school during school hours is no place for protest/demonstration.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1273357858' post='887160']
Semantics? Hardly.

You'll also note that peaceful assembly (ie:protest) is not allowed on high school campuses.

Wearing the colors to be prideful of your country is one thing, wearing them to incite is quite another, and thats not semantics.
[/quote]

So, was the girl that 'caused' her school's prom to be canceled because, as she is a lesbian, she wanted to bring a date, another young woman, and to wear a tuxedo at said prom trying to incite potential violence by simply wearing an outfit that approximately 50% of the prom population was wearing? Dollars to doughnuts that you would say that not allowing her to wear a tux and arrive at a school prom with a date of her choice would be completely close-minded, bigoted, and, most importantly, wrong. Now, when two people and/or parties commence to protesting a thing, using the same, for lack of better word, platform, and you only choose to value the opinions of the protesters, and not the precedence of the act of protesting, that IS semantics.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1273363819' post='887189']
So, was the girl that 'caused' her school's prom to be canceled because, as she is a lesbian, she wanted to bring a date, another young woman, and to wear a tuxedo at said prom trying to incite potential violence by simply wearing an outfit that approximately 50% of the prom population was wearing? Dollars to doughnuts that you would say that not allowing her to wear a tux and arrive at a school prom with a date of her choice would be completely close-minded, bigoted, and, most importantly, wrong. Now, when two people and/or parties commence to protesting a thing, using the same, for lack of better word, platform, and you only choose to value the opinions of the protesters, and not the precedence of the act of protesting, that IS semantics.
[/quote]

I guess the question is... Was it intended to be a demonstration or did she just want to go to prom and hates wearing dresses? Prom is a little different.. The kids are allowed to wear the flag shirts any other day they want to..

It's kind of hard to call a life style "a protest".

I can think of a perfectly legitimate non protest reason for her to go to prom.. It's hard to think of any other reason these kids were wearing flag shirts to school on Cinco De Mayo.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1273364253' post='887192']
I guess the question is... Was it intended to be a demonstration or did she just want to go to prom and hates wearing dresses? Prom is a little different.. The kids are allowed to wear the flag shirts any other day they want to..

It's kind of hard to call a life style "a protest".

I can think of a perfectly legitimate non protest reason for her to go to prom.. It's hard to think of any other reason these kids were wearing flag shirts to school on Cinco De Mayo.
[/quote]



*laughs* Now you are splitting hairs. A 2 syllable word can elicit applause in one crowd and a riot when used in another. Perception is an infinite-edged sword that only ever seems to cut the wielder.


And does that mean Jews cannot wear a yamaka on Easter? I mean, it -may- offend Christians... And I guess that also means anyone displaying any non-Irish nationalistic items on March 17th is being truly heartless and itching to start a fight... Those arguments don't play because the first argument doesn't play.

[big_dish]

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1273364973' post='887195']
And does that mean Jews cannot wear a yamaka on Easter? I mean, it -may- offend Christians... And I guess that also means anyone displaying any non-Irish nationalistic items on March 17th is being truly heartless and itching to start a fight... Those arguments don't play because the first argument doesn't play.
[/quote]

That was part of my argument earlier:

[quote]BUT- When I am in my own country, and administrators are telling high school kids to take off the colors of the American Flag due to some other nations "holiday", you are goddamn right I am pissed. Whats next, suspension for wearing a flag on St Patricks day? Saturday school for wearing it on Bastille Day? Detention on Queen Elizabeths birthday? I mean, where does it stop? I dont care if the dumbass kids were trying to make some sort of point, you should never, EVER in this country be told you arent allowed to wear the United States flag emblazoned on your person.[/quote]

Nobody commented on it then, not sure they will now either. Of all things, to be (mildly) persecuted for wearing the American flag in America, under any circumstances. Shame.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1273361111' post='887181']
That still doesn't rise to the level of inciting anything. So someone's parent holds a different opinion than yours, that doesn't mean they are automatically up to something. You and I disagree a lot, that doesn't mean I think you are a bad person. It also doesn't call your motives into question.
[/quote]

You really believe they werent trying to stir the pot?

[quote name='Xombie' date='08 May 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1273363819' post='887189']
So, was the girl that 'caused' her school's prom to be canceled because, as she is a lesbian, she wanted to bring a date, another young woman, and to wear a tuxedo at said prom trying to incite potential violence by simply wearing an outfit that approximately 50% of the prom population was wearing? Dollars to doughnuts that you would say that not allowing her to wear a tux and arrive at a school prom with a date of her choice would be completely close-minded, bigoted, and, most importantly, wrong. Now, when two people and/or parties commence to protesting a thing, using the same, for lack of better word, platform, and you only choose to value the opinions of the protesters, and not the precedence of the act of protesting, that IS semantics.
[/quote]


I dont see much difference tbh, if her or the kids wearing the flag shirts saftey is in question, that has to be put above any "rights" they may have. Furhter I dont believe that some of those kids were doing anything other than stick poking, as lucid said they have a choice to not do that where as the lesbian girl does not.