American students kicked off campus for wearing American flag shirts

[big_dish]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 May 2010 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1273316973' post='886997']
2 things dish

1. How do you define serving your country? Do you have to be a member of the military to do so? Because with the exception of a few months in the private sector I have been a contractor to various government agencies for goin on 14 years now, in my opinion I have served my government, in your opinion I haven't?

2. Maybe a few kids wore it in pride, but how do you read this and believe that there was no intent to stir the pot? ... "We're happy about Arizona's law, and you bet we're fired up," said Julie Fagerstrom, whose son, Dominic Maciel, wore one of the shirts.
[/quote]


I wouldnt consider it serving your country in the capacity that someone who leaves home for 4-30 years, leaves family for years at a time, puts their life on the line, has very little choice in what goes on in their life during that time... No, not the same. You have worked for your country, as a job, as a contractor of sorts, and that could be considered "serving" ultimately- but just not in the context I meant above. I guess the more correct verbage would have been veteran.

That Dominic kid is a Mexican American. Lots of people are either happy about the AZ, or completely indifferent- as it really isnt a new law whatsoever. Anyway, my point is, regardless, this is America. You can wear the American Flag anyday you feel like it, and should NEVER be told to take it off to pacify the eggshell ego of anyone while standing on American soil. Its the principle of it.

[big_dish]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 07:23 AM' timestamp='1273317791' post='886999']
Explaining to a bigot why they are a bigot is like explaining to an alcoholic that they are an alcoholic.

It's impossible (I know I have tried on both accounts many times). It's a revelation that can only come from introspection.
[/quote]







Yeah I'm a bigot. You have no clue what you are talking about, I dont need to explain anything more to you, nor do I care whatsoever what you think of me. If anything I've said makes me a bigot, then we live in a country full of bigots and that makes me pretty damn normal.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 08:17 AM' timestamp='1273321042' post='887009']
I wouldnt consider it serving your country in the capacity that someone who leaves home for 4-30 years, leaves family for years at a time, puts their life on the line, has very little choice in what goes on in their life during that time... No, not the same. You have worked for your country, as a job, as a contractor of sorts, and that could be considered "serving" ultimately- but just not in the context I meant above. I guess the more correct verbage would have been veteran.

That Dominic kid is a Mexican American. Lots of people are either happy about the AZ, or completely indifferent- as it really isnt a new law whatsoever. Anyway, my point is, regardless, this is America. You can wear the American Flag anyday you feel like it, and should NEVER be told to take it off to pacify the eggshell ego of anyone while standing on American soil. Its the principle of it.
[/quote]


And I say that wearing the flag in this manner is disrespectful to the flag itself.. The symbol of our nation and (for many around the world) the symbol of freedom and equality should never be used to agitate, or disrespect a group or their culture.

Everyone knows (even those who refuse to admit it) that these students wore these shirts as a means of protest. Since I will give them the benefit of doubt, and not accuse them of protesting Latino culture I can only assume they were protesting Freedom.

I know that throws you for a loop.. So let me explain.. Cinco De Mayo is PRIMARILY a US celebrated event.. It isn't Mexican.. In fact only in Puebla (a Mexican State) is it celebrated. It has always been primarily an American event celebrating the defeat of a European empirical power by people seeking freedom of their homeland.

Why on earth would you protest a Cinco De Mayo celebration? It's fucking retarded.



[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 08:19 AM' timestamp='1273321176' post='887010']
Yeah I'm a bigot. You have no clue what you are talking about, I dont need to explain anything more to you, nor do I care whatsoever what you think of me. If anything I've said makes me a bigot, t[b]hen we live in a country full of bigots and that makes me pretty damn normal.[/b]
[/quote]


Well, we can agree on some things to be sure.

[big_dish]

I stated earlier in this thread that this isnt a Mexican holiday, I know what it is.

I also see your point of view, but as far as I am concerned, the American Flag, worn or flown in America, should never be consider a bad thing, whether you are a first generation American or tenth generation American. If you live on this soil, that flag should not offend you for any reason whatsoever.

(Bigot is a pretty easy word to throw around to people that you dont agree with, and rarely carries any weight or truth ultimately)

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 08:41 AM' timestamp='1273322499' post='887016']
I stated earlier in this thread that this isnt a Mexican holiday, I know what it is.

I also see your point of view, but as far as I am concerned, the American Flag, worn or flown in America, should never be consider a bad thing, whether you are a first generation American or tenth generation American. If you live on this soil, that flag should not offend you for any reason whatsoever.

(Bigots a pretty easy word to throw around to people that you dont agree with, and rarely carries any weight or truth)
[/quote]

Do you really think it was the flag that was offensive?

I don't.

And I'm not using the word because I don't agree with someone or something.. I am using it to (accurately) describe a certain perspective as it pertains to what being an American is, or isn't.. Or what constitutes "normal" or "foreign". Or even what is patriotic as opposed to "un-American"..

As I recall it, you are the one who started qualifying what being an American means as it pertains to viewpoint on the direction of this country or the debates going on within.. And you used your military service as a means to validate (or strengthen) that stance. I felt the need to point out that not all "patriotic" self-sacrificing Americans agree with your definition.

[big_dish]

I'm sure all dont agree, but I would say the majority would. Many people are very protective of this country, and regardless of what those kids intent was, the symbol of America was put into a position to be considered a shameful symbol by some overzealous vice principle during an American made (basically) holiday on American soil.

a bigot is someone who is intolerant and/or hostile to those of different race/religion/ethnicity/nationality etc etc. I am not intolerant or hostile in regards to any of those. I am not 100% white, I am not religious, and my heritage is a melting pot. I consider myself very tolerant, just not in the liberal sense of letting everyone trample on my country.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1273323658' post='887024']
I'm sure all dont agree, but I would say the majority would. Many people are very protective of this country, and regardless of what those kids intent was, the symbol of America was put into a position to be considered a shameful symbol by some overzealous vice principle during an American made (basically) holiday on American soil.

a bigot is someone who is intolerant and/or hostile to those of different race/religion/ethnicity/nationality etc etc. I am not intolerant or hostile in regards to any of those. I am not 100% white, I am not religious, and my heritage is a melting pot. I consider myself very tolerant, just not in the liberal sense of letting everyone trample on my country.
[/quote]


I included the definitions of these because I believe you have an incomplete understanding of the labels.


[quote]eth·no·cen·trism
   /ˌɛθnoʊˈsɛntrɪzəm/ Show Spelled[eth-noh-sen-triz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or [b]culture[/b].
2.
a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
[/quote]


[quote]big·ot·ry
   /ˈbɪgətri/ Show Spelled[big-uh-tree] Show IPA
–noun,plural-ries.
1.
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. [/quote]

This is not about race or religion... It's about cultures, beliefs and opinions. As you will notice neither of these words I have used are about race or nationality or religion...

And I assert again that it was not the flag that people were embarrassed by.. It was the manner in which it was being used. Would it be accurate to say it is the flag that is offensive when people burn it in protest? No, it's the manner in which the flag is being used. It desecrates what it stands for and is insulting to those like me who were willing to put our lives on the line to protect those things.

Do you feel me brother?

[big_dish]

What I am trying to say is that I dont view my culture (American, only) as superior to another country/ethinic group when placed side by side, and viewed from the outside. I do expect and hope that when others move here, they are willing to assimilate into a productive and proud part of society. If they are not happy with what America provides them, then why come here? Some of the most proud Americans I have ever met have been 1st gen. immigrants. Some of the most ungrateful have been too. Yes, I believe if you move to this country/live in this country, then you have no right to be upset if someone wears a shirt with the American Flag on it. Regardless of what the day means for your culture (even though this one is a manufactured holiday more or less). As for the flag burning reference, I think these are two different circumstances. While these kids may not have thought this through, or were just trying to say "I'm proud to be American on Cinco De Mayo"- there should be no penalty or repercussion for wearing an American Flag. And if the kids of Mexican descent are offended by a kid saying "I'm proud to be an American, even on Cinco De Mayo", then they have about as thin skin as you can get, and are in for an exceptionally rough life.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1273325065' post='887029']
What I am trying to say is that I dont view my culture (American, only) as superior to another country/ethinic group when placed side by side, and viewed from the outside. I do expect and hope that when others move here, they are willing to assimilate into a productive and proud part of society. If they are not happy with what America provides them, then why come here? Some of the most proud Americans I have ever met have been 1st gen. immigrants. Some of the most ungrateful have been too. Yes, I believe if you move to this country/live in this country, then you have no right to be upset if someone wears a shirt with the American Flag on it. Regardless of what the day means for your culture (even though this one is a manufactured holiday more or less). As for the flag burning reference, I think these are two different circumstances. While these kids may not have thought this through, or were just trying to say "I'm proud to be American on Cinco De Mayo"- there should be no penalty or repercussion for wearing an American Flag. And if the kids of Mexican descent are offended by a kid saying "I'm proud to be an American, even on Cinco De Mayo", then they have about as thin skin as you can get, and are in for an exceptionally rough life.
[/quote]

You simply do not get where I am coming from.. Again you keep confusing "culture" with "nation"... Do you believe in "American Culture" as a homogeneous entity?

To me there is no such animal.. A fisherman from the Bayou in Louisiana comes from an entirely different world than a truck driver in Minnesota.. And the reality of a goth teenager in Philadelphia is light years away from that of a Seminary student in Texas.

I was never trying to insinuate anything about your feelings toward immigrants or Latinos (in specific).. I was reacting to your exchange with Jaimie.

And you can think what you [i]choose[/i].. But deep down you know that they wore those shirts to be confrontational.. To remind the Latinos what country they were in. It's fairly easy to assume that they feel threatened by what they perceive as a threat to their culture.. They see their way of life changing because of increased influence of outside cultures.

The problem for me is that this is absolutely NOT the proper use of the American flag, and I will never change my mind on that.

No one cares if they celebrate their patriotism.. That's awesome.. But if you use your patriotism to lash out at others that makes you an asshole... And if you use the flag in this manner it is simply wrong.

"The right to swing my fist ends where another mans nose begins"
[i] Oliver Wendell Holmes[/i]

[big_dish]

I'm not confusing culture with nation.

I think very much there is an American culture, and while different people with different backgrounds may live completely different lives, I think the majority of people recognize a strong American "culture". Being a melting pot, we certainly have a ton of other cultures within that may have a concrete identity than America. Its not like every Mexican is the same person, or every Indian is the same person, or every Japanese person is the same either. Every cultural identity has persons that run the gamut, so to think America is any different in that regard doesnt make much sense. I'd consider us to have a national identity and a cultural identity.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1273326817' post='887036']
I'm not confusing culture with nation.

I think very much there is an American culture, and while different people with different backgrounds may live completely different lives, I think the majority of people recognize a strong American "culture". Being a melting pot, we certainly have a ton of other cultures within that may have a concrete identity than America. Its not like every Mexican is the same person, or every Indian is the same person, or every Japanese person is the same either. Every cultural identity has persons that run the gamut, so to think America is any different in that regard doesnt make much sense. I'd consider us to have a national identity and a cultural identity.
[/quote]


Hmm... I think you need to travel. And not just do the tourist thing... Get down and dirty. You will then understand the vast error in that line of thinking. I guarantee I could take you places in the US where if I took you there blind folded you would swear you are in another country. And these would be "natural citizens" with old family lines.. They would speak english but I bet you would have a hard time understanding them.

If I could pinpoint "American Culture" it is exactly that we are all free to be and live how we choose.. and that's it. "Freedom" is Americas culture. And that means we are also free to think how we choose, and come to our own conclusions about what makes America better.. It doesn't mean one "culture" or way of life or thinking is "American" and others aren't.

In fact I would argue that your entire post is affirmation of ethnocentrism.


[quote]
eth·no·cen·trism
   /ˌɛθnoʊˈsɛntrɪzəm/ Show Spelled[eth-noh-sen-triz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
[b]2.
a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.[/b][/quote]

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1273323658' post='887024']
I'm sure all dont agree, but I would say the majority would. Many people are very protective of this country, and regardless of what those kids intent was, the symbol of America was put into a position to be considered a shameful symbol by some overzealous vice principle during an American made (basically) holiday on American soil.

a bigot is someone who is intolerant and/or hostile to those of different race/religion/ethnicity/nationality etc etc. I am not intolerant or hostile in regards to any of those. I am not 100% white, I am not religious, and my heritage is a melting pot. I consider myself very tolerant, just not in the liberal sense of letting everyone trample on [b]my[/b] country.
[/quote]

That one word is the problem with conservatives in general, and you in particular. It's always MY, MY and ME, ME. This is not YOUR country, if it's anybodies, it should be the native americans. This country is a Melting Pot, a lot of poor people from all over the world, that came here to get a fresh start, and have an opportunity to participate in the world's only true experiment of Real FREEDOM. The majority of "Illegal Immigrants" are just trying to do the same thing, come somewhere that will give their future generations a chance to be all they can be.

I will admit, I have trouble with the idea that the kids would be sent home from school for wearing a flag on this day or any other day, even if their idea was to use the flag for dissent, but if the administration felt it was going to be a problem, then they have the right to do what's best for the majority of students even if it somewhat restrictive.

As far as me, I have not served our country as a member of the military, and I do respect all that do. My Father retired as a Master Sargent from the Air Force, My brother spent 4 years in the Army, and my father in law was Command Sargent Major at Fort Hood in the '90's. For African Americans the military has always been a place where you know that you will be judged by the content of your character, not your skin color, at least since WWII.

Dish, I know you have your prejudices, and I know the stereotypes help enhance them, but when you understand that the Mexicans come here for the same reason that the Irish, Italians, Africans, Eastern Europeans and Asians come, the opportunity to get a chance to give their decendents a chance to be like you and I, a free person, able to debate and disagree, to practice whatever religion we want or none at all, but still be a part of the great experiment. This is a melting pot, and sometimes when cooking you need a little "SPICE"!

[big_dish]

I think this discussion has reached the end of the line for me... like most of the threads in the J&D forum, no points are going to get across to the other side either way.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 08:17 AM' timestamp='1273321042' post='887009']
I wouldnt consider it serving your country in the capacity that someone who leaves home for 4-30 years, leaves family for years at a time, puts their life on the line, has very little choice in what goes on in their life during that time... No, not the same. You have worked for your country, as a job, as a contractor of sorts, and that could be considered "serving" ultimately- but just not in the context I meant above. I guess the more correct verbage would have been veteran.

That Dominic kid is a Mexican American. Lots of people are either happy about the AZ, or completely indifferent- as it really isnt a new law whatsoever. Anyway, my point is, regardless, this is America. You can wear the American Flag anyday you feel like it, and should NEVER be told to take it off to pacify the eggshell ego of anyone while standing on American soil. Its the principle of it.
[/quote]


Fair enough, but I do believe I have served of sorts, but I get the context now.

I think their intent is important here, I don't believe their intent was principled.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1273327652' post='887043']
I think this discussion has reached the end of the line for me... like most of the threads in the J&D forum, no points are going to get across to the other side either way.
[/quote]


Too bad. I thought this had been a surprisingly civil, mature and productive debate.

Often times the purpose of a debate is not for those in the trenches.. But for those sitting on the fences.

[big_dish]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='08 May 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1273327609' post='887041']

Dish, I know you have your prejudices, and I know the stereotypes help enhance them, but when you understand that the Mexicans come here for the same reason that the Irish, Italians, Africans, Eastern Europeans and Asians come, the opportunity to get a chance to give their decendents a chance to be like you and I, a free person, able to debate and disagree, to practice whatever religion we want or none at all, but still be a part of the great experiment. This is a melting pot, and sometimes when cooking you need a little "SPICE"!
[/quote]




I am all in favor of everyone still coming here, as long as they want to live as productive members of society. Thats what all of the immigrants who willfully came here (and the majority of those that didnt- eventually when given the chance) wanted, to have the opportunity to live a life that provides the opportunity in the first place. I do think if you move here, like all the immigrants who built up the country 100-150 years ago, that you take the time to learn the language, understand the laws, keep your culture but become an American. I live in Charlotte NC, lived in Cincinnati for a long time, and have always wanted to eventually live in a more culture rich city- I truly do enjoy learning about other peoples cultures and ways.

My only issue with this whole thing, is that while in this country, people displaying and American flag were penalized and ostacised- regardless of their intention 99% of the time (this wasnt hate speech or anything- just a bit of naiveity by some kids). Even so, anyone who is offended by the American flag while living in this country needs to reflect a bit on what this country provides them, they can proud of both flags at the same time.

[big_dish]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1273328235' post='887045']
Too bad. I thought this had been a surprisingly civil, mature and productive debate.

Often times the purpose of a debate is not for those in the trenches.. But for those sitting on the fences.
[/quote]
Its been good, I just feel like its hitting a bit of a dead end.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='big_dish' date='08 May 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1273328611' post='887048']
Its been good, I just feel like its hitting a bit of a dead end.
[/quote]

Hmm, I felt we were tilling fresh earth.. Or at least I was endeavoring, in my continued attempt to steer the debate from immigration itself, and into the thought processes that drive the underlying issues.

[John~Galt]

I doubt a bunch of school kids were going to start some kind of race war.

It is very disturbing to me that anyone that expresses patriotism or dares to exercise their right to protest against our current leadership is labeled a threat.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1273339861' post='887087']
I doubt a bunch of school kids were going to start some kind of race war.

It is very disturbing to me that anyone that expresses patriotism or dares to exercise their right to protest against our current leadership is labeled a threat.
[/quote]

War? Threat? Hyperbole much?

[DontPushMe]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='07 May 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1273243919' post='886801']
Does anyone really believe they werent trying to do a little stick poking?
[/quote]

Seriously. Anyone saying otherwise has been out of school too long.

[quote name='big_dish' date='07 May 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1273250093' post='886835']
BTW, nowhere does it say that they were told in advance to leave their Americanism at home that day. I sure as hell wouldnt turn my shirt, bearing my flag, inside out. What a shameful request by a man obviously not grateful for the opportunity this country has provided for him.
[/quote]

You realize its just a piece of material made in a poor southeast asian country right?

I dont understand people make such a big deal out of these stupid traditions like respecting a flag. Its a piece of cloth, get over it.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1273340475' post='887094']
War? Threat? Hyperbole much?
[/quote]


Not so much. Look around a bit and you can find a lot of examples of politicians referring to the tea party movement as "the greatest threat to our national security."

Calling the wearing of an American flag racist is intellectually dishonest and portraying these kids as a group out to start something is in fact calling them a threat. Take off the political blinders for a bit and think for yourself.

[quote name='DontPushMe' date='08 May 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1273341027' post='887095']
Seriously. Anyone saying otherwise has been out of school too long.



You realize its just a piece of material made in a poor southeast asian country right?

I dont understand people make such a big deal out of these stupid traditions like respecting a flag. Its a piece of cloth, get over it.
[/quote]

Your advice is good advice for both sides.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 May 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1273345043' post='887109']
Not so much. Look around a bit and you can find a lot of examples of politicians referring to the tea party movement as "the greatest threat to our national security."

Calling the wearing of an American flag racist is intellectually dishonest and portraying these kids as a group out to start something is in fact calling them a threat. Take off the political blinders for a bit and think for yourself.



Your advice is good advice for both sides.
[/quote]

Who called anyone a racist? And when people show up at rallies with automatic weapons and signs depicting or alluding to the assassination of the President, then yes they are security risks.

By reading your response I can only assume you haven't actually read my posts, and made a judgment regardless. Sorry but that is what I would call "intellectual dishonesty".

You would consider teenagers trying to illicit an emotional response from other teenagers in school a "threat"... Ok....

You act as if these kids were arrested rather than asked to turn their shirts inside out.. And then told to go home for the day when they refused.

How about you take off [i]your[/i] blinders and try thinking for [i]yourself[/i].

[Jamie_B]

I dont know that I would go so far as saying its just a piece of cloth, my thing is that their intent was not for patriotism as so much as it was to incite.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Lucid' date='08 May 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1273345480' post='887110']
Who called anyone a racist? And when people show up at rallies with automatic weapons and signs depicting or alluding to the assassination of the President, then yes they are security risks.

By reading your response I can only assume you haven't actually read my posts, and made a judgment regardless. Sorry but that is what I would call "intellectual dishonesty".

You would consider teenagers trying to illicit an emotional response from other teenagers in school a "threat"... Ok....

You act as if these kids were arrested rather than asked to turn their shirts inside out.. And then told to go home for the day when they refused.

How about you take off [i]your[/i] blinders and try thinking for [i]yourself[/i].
[/quote]


You are making broad assumptions about a very wide variety of people. Yes there are a few kooks in any political movement. To assume the few kooks are representative of the entire group is in fact intellectually dishonest.

It is also intellectually dishonest and quite lazy to infer that someone wearing a flag shirt is attempting to incite something. Even if they were trying to make a political statement (they probably were) it is their right to do so. Freedom of speech applies to all speech, not just speech you happen to agree with. No one wearing something as simple as a flag t-shirt should be asked to turn it inside out. If the school wants to cover its ass then have uniforms.