Fight. Kill. This is what Allah wants?

[The Scales]

Why does a relgion promote killing?



2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."

3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."

3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."

3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

If you read the Quran and the Hadiths(history of Mohammed) You will be shocked at the violence, brutality you will find.


[b]Is there a secret code or something I'm missing?
[/b]


this one is even better!

[b]How women should be treated in Islam according to the Quran:

:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then beat them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem)[/b]

[Khatmandude]

Do a little bit of historical education to understand context.......until you do so, you have failed at understanding what you're trying to understand.

You're being silly if you can just handpick some verses and form an opinion based on that. You of all people should know that.

For someone who claims that paths to "enlightenment" take effort, you are being quite lazy. Not good.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1282589422' post='909379']
Do a little bit of historical education to understand context.......until you do so, you have failed at understanding what you're trying to understand.

You're being silly if you can just handpick some verses and form an opinion based on that. You of all people should know that.
[/quote]


people do the same thing with the bible all the time, i would hope scales knows better, and think maybe he is trying to drum up convo?

[The Scales]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1282589422' post='909379']
Do a little bit of historical education to understand context.......until you do so, you have failed at understanding what you're trying to understand.

You're being silly if you can just handpick some verses and form an opinion based on that. You of all people should know that.
[/quote]


They are pretty black and white. Isn't this the Propaganda distributed by those who use the religion for their nefarious ends?


Ok you got me.


Fuck.

I'm also on another board and this guy is posting all this stuff - the above qoutes from the Quaran in addition to many more. I've only read like a page of the Book to be quite honest.

He's droning on and on about how the Sanatana Dharma / Hinduism is the most superior religion of all and that if anybody follows another they are idoitic primitive barbarians...


Because I'm an ignoramus about the Islam . . . I was hoping for a kick ass response from my Bengal brothers to shut him up...


I already gave him the time/place/context/age/society angle but he keeps plowing on. It maybe hopeless.


Anyway I was hoping for a nugget to put in his smoking pipe.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282589631' post='909382']
people do the same thing with the bible all the time, i would hope scales knows better, and think maybe he is trying to drum up convo?
[/quote]


Convo is good, but the lazy effort made is discouraging. Have a little bit more intellectual integrity and I'll play along. Otherwise, get out of here with that weak shit.

[The Scales]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1282589422' post='909379']


For someone who claims that paths to "enlightenment" take effort, you are being quite lazy. Not good.
[/quote]


Did I really claim that?


Oh . . . perhaps it was me being exoteric to prompt seeking the higher training and wisdom?


Illumination actually, when you get on down to it . . . its' quite easy. It's your actual state.

To get the Light all it takes is patient sitting . . .


[size="7"][b]To quiet the Mind. Just let it go. Be effortless. Like a sleeping child or the wide still sea.

In illumination . . . rest like a lamp in the night. Let your thoughts go. They are simply the play of the mind.

- Milarepa[/b][/size]


WHEN THY EYE IS SINGLE THY BODY WILL BE FULL OF LIGHT!!!

theres code here btw.

Shambahvi mudra is the key...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1282590893' post='909399']
Convo is good, but the lazy effort made is discouraging. Have a little bit more intellectual integrity and I'll play along. Otherwise, get out of here with that weak shit.
[/quote]


[img]http://www.counteragent.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/weak-sauce-thumb.jpg[/img]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='The Scales' timestamp='1282590589' post='909395']
They are pretty black and white. Isn't this the Propaganda distributed by those who use the religion for their nefarious ends?


Ok you got me.


Fuck.

I'm also on another board and this guy is posting all this stuff - the above qoutes from the Quaran in addition to many more. I've only read like a page of the Book to be quite honest.

He's droning on and on about how the Sanatana Dharma / Hinduism is the most superior religion of all and that if anybody follows another they are idoitic primitive barbarians...


Because I'm an ignoramus about the Islam . . . I was hoping for a kick ass response from my Bengal brothers to shut him up...


I already gave him the time/place/context/age/society angle but he keeps plowing on. It maybe hopeless.


Anyway I was hoping for a nugget to put in his smoking pipe.
[/quote]


Thanks for clarifying. It makes a bit more sense now as I expected more out of you. Would have been nice if you clarified your intention from the onset.

I'm at work so can't provide an appropriate "rebuttal" to that guy.......and any verse can be used to further a point if done so ignorantly. That's why education takes effort.....unless he's willing to educate himself......it may be hopeless to continue "discussion" .........see the example of Lawman who used to post on here.

Again, they key is understanding historical context......the Quran was revealed during time of war and extreme lawlessness. That's where he MUST start.

[The Scales]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1282591874' post='909403']
Thanks for clarifying. It makes a bit more sense now as I expected more out of you. Would have been nice if you clarified your intention from the onset.

I'm at work so can't provide an appropriate "rebuttal" to that guy.......and any verse can be used to further a point if done so ignorantly. That's why education takes effort.....unless he's willing to educate himself......it may be hopeless to continue "discussion" .........see the example of Lawman who used to post on here.

[b]Again, they key is understanding historical context......the Quran was revealed during time of war and extreme lawlessness. That's where he MUST start.[/b]
[/quote]


Thats pretty damn good. Right there.

I'm gonna copy and paste you.

This guy is too much.

I gave you credit in the Post.

[STRAYCAT]

Scales if you post something they don't like on here you get stoned....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='STRAYCAT' timestamp='1282606330' post='909483']
Scales if you post something they don't like on here you get stoned....
[/quote]

[|Montana Bengal|]

What ever happened to Lawman? Did he get pissed or something?

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Montana Bengal' timestamp='1282619518' post='909557']
What ever happened to Lawman? Did he get pissed or something?
[/quote]

He had to go into hiding.

[img]http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/1999_American_Beauty/999AMB_Chris_Cooper_006.jpg[/img]

[TheBeaverHunter]

I wish they would just go back from where they came and take their religion with them. I am sick of hearing about that stuff. I think it is safe to say nobody likes muslims but muslims. So they need to stick with their own kind.

[Enon Bengal]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' timestamp='1282653945' post='909604']
I wish they would just go back from where they came and take their religion with them. I am sick of hearing about that stuff. I think it is safe to say nobody likes muslims but muslims. So they need to stick with their own kind.
[/quote]
That’s being brutally honest. You may not agree with the man but you have to respect him for putting it out there.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1282666882' post='909685']
That’s being brutally honest. You may not agree with the man but you have to respect him for putting it out there.
[/quote]


He's trolling. It's not serious.

[The Scales]

Well it didn't work.

I had a suspicion that it would fall on deaf ears. Which it did.


Now he's going through the Holy Bible and cutting out passages and posting them that highlight brutality, violence, oppression, murder, the killing of infants, the rape of women, and how God has an passion for the smell of blood and rotting corpses.





Oh well.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='The Scales' timestamp='1282709902' post='909890']
Well it didn't work.

I had a suspicion that it would fall on deaf ears. Which it did.


Now he's going through the Holy Bible and cutting out passages and posting them that highlight brutality, violence, oppression, murder, the killing of infants, the rape of women, and how God has an passion for the smell of blood and rotting corpses.





Oh well.
[/quote]

All religious books are taken out of context depending on the agenda of the reader. I could go out tomorrow and kill a gay man and say I did it because of the old testament. It's the people that take any religious text literally that scare me.

[Khatmandude]

[quote]There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. If the evil carnage we witnessed on Sept. 11 were typical of the faith, and Islam truly inspired and justified such violence, its growth and the increasing presence of Muslims in both Europe and the U.S. would be a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, this is not the case.

The very word Islam, which means "surrender," is related to the Arabic salam, or peace. When the Prophet Muhammad brought the inspired scripture known as the Koran to the Arabs in the early 7th century A.D., a major part of his mission was devoted precisely to bringing an end to the kind of mass slaughter we witnessed in New York City and Washington. Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare, in which tribe fought tribe in a pattern of vendetta and counter-vendetta. Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts, and the early Muslim community narrowly escaped extermination by the powerful city of Mecca. The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia.

Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4:89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4:90).

In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2:190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2:191; 2:217) or to preserve decent values (4:75; 22:40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5:45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2:192-3).

Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its "pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war" but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level-personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad," the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.

Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book," who worship the same God (29:46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49:13)-not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.

So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.

It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.[/quote]
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=TI0806-3595



Obviously, this information is easy to find and the "violent" verses in the Quran are easily "explainable" when considering historical context of each revelation and who it was directed towards. There is a specific message as well as general message in the Quran. I wonder why/how some people completely ignore the overall/general message directed towards all people for all of time as opposed to concentrating and trying to emphasize the so called "violent"/ specific message. Agenda?

Educating oneself is all it takes. But laziness is an easier, more convenient option.

[Jamie_B]

How is it that so many overseas (and I use many in an somewhat ignorant context with regard to numbers) miss this especially the "Muslims"?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284405953' post='918412']
How is it that so many overseas (and I use many in an somewhat ignorant context with regard to numbers) miss this especially the "Muslims"?
[/quote]


I dont follow.

Just because the tv shows you a group of 50 people out of a city of 2 million or more chanting "Death to America" or such, it gives the impression that everyone in that city and/or country feel this way. Obviously that's not the case. I've been told about interfaith events that promote cooperation between religions/cultures at the Univ of Cincinnati which drew hundreds of people but where was the media to promote such a peace building event? Nowhere to be found. I guess they were all away in Florida covering the 35 member congregation who wanted to burn Qurans.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1284406979' post='918417']
I dont follow.

Just because the tv shows you a group of 50 people out of a city of 2 million or more chanting "Death to America" or such, it gives the impression that everyone in that city and/or country feel this way. Obviously that's not the case. I've been told about interfaith events that promote cooperation between religions/cultures at the Univ of Cincinnati which drew hundreds of people but where was the media to promote such a peace building event? Nowhere to be found. I guess they were all away in Florida covering the 35 member congregation who wanted to burn Qurans.
[/quote]


Actually you answered it, the media sucks.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1284406979' post='918417']
I dont follow.

Just because the tv shows you a group of 50 people out of a city of 2 million or more chanting "Death to America" or such, it gives the impression that everyone in that city and/or country feel this way. Obviously that's not the case. I've been told about interfaith events that promote cooperation between religions/cultures at the Univ of Cincinnati which drew hundreds of people but [color="#FF0000"]where was the media to promote such a peace building event? Nowhere to be found.[/color] I guess they were all away in Florida covering the 35 member congregation who wanted to burn Qurans.
[/quote]


Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/39087645#39087645

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1284405446' post='918411']
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=TI0806-3595



Obviously, this information is easy to find and the "violent" verses in the Quran are easily "explainable" when considering historical context of each revelation and who it was directed towards. There is a specific message as well as general message in the Quran. I wonder why/how some people completely ignore the overall/general message directed towards all people for all of time as opposed to concentrating and trying to emphasize the so called "violent"/ specific message. Agenda?

[b]Educating oneself is all it takes. But laziness is an easier, more convenient option.[/b]
[/quote]

I think most have enough trouble explaining their own religion, that grasping an entirely different one seems like a tall order.

From my shallow perspective it seems as though Islam plays a much larger role in the government and legislation of the Middle Eastern countries than say Christianity does here. Christian faith based reasoning certainly rears its head on a regular basis here, but we don't teeter along the boundaries of a Theocracy and I get the impression that many, if not most Middle Eastern countries do.

Do you think this is media distortion and not actually the case?
Do you think this perception, real or false, also works to drag Islam down as well because most don't like the politics of said countries?


OT: When reading a defense of religion that includes "people have to educate themselves better" I always have the same thought...can't we just get some abridged versions of these Holy Books? How about we stop giving idiots a grab-bag of 1500 year old historical context-dependent fables protected under the infallible "Holy" banner and just start giving them [u]the message[/u]? We are in agreement that most people are idiots right? Rather than hope they push themselves and persevere through the discordance it takes to uproot their world-view wrought with literal interpretations of ancient texts...can't we just hide the ammunition? Nobody needs to read the garbage in Deuteronomy to get the J Man's message of peace.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1284409364' post='918432']
I think most have enough trouble explaining their own religion, that grasping an entirely different one seems like a tall order.
[/quote]

Its fine to be so busy that learning about another religion may not be feasible ... but don't go making judgments on that same religion until you do learn a bit about it. To do so is lazy.
Also, something that's so significant seemingly to us these days as Islam has become, why not go and dedicate the 10-20 hrs it would take to get a good idea of what it teaches?

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1284409364' post='918432']
From my shallow perspective it seems as though Islam plays a much larger role in the government and legislation of the Middle Eastern countries than say Christianity does here. Christian faith based reasoning certainly rears its head on a regular basis here, but we don't teeter along the boundaries of a Theocracy and I get the impression that many, if not most Middle Eastern countries do.

Do you think this is media distortion and not actually the case?
Do you think this perception, real or false, also works to drag Islam down as well because most don't like the politics of said countries?
[/quote]

I think my feelings on the media are well known, however I don't think they have to do much distorting when it comes to politics in Middle Eastern countries for people to form negative opinions. For the most part, the leaders of the countries are actually put in place, through a variety of ways, who dont care much for the people but they do about themselves. They're greedy and corrupt. Money and as a result resources are stashed away in bank accounts of these same leaders not doing the public any good. A false democracy is put in place with Islamic faith based reasoning for the people. And you're right, I think the presence of Islamic based reasoning is a bit larger in those countries than Christianity based reasoning is here.