MSNBC's Anchor O'Donnell is a Socialist

[Xombie]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289875124' post='941805']
Why stop there? I mean how many millions don't have access to food and clean drinking water in our country alone? Why should a 40 hour work week be a pre-requisite for living?
[/quote]



Because, even looking at it through the lens of extremes, the 'common good' ideal is a 2-way street.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1289855936' post='941727']
im curious about this statement. I've heard it said many times in a few different ways

but theres something i just cant grasp about it

why should you need to be employed in order to have access to healthcare?

the employer-based healthcare system makes 0 sense, outside of the fact that its the status quo in this country

we're not talking about extra spending money for an ipod...or even elective plastic surgery...why should an unemployed, poor, or lower-middleclass man have to go bankrupt because his wife or kid has cancer?

now for the quasi-related rant:
it seems like the general attitude i'm seeing/hearing/reading from a lot of people is that the vast majority of unemployed or less-than-wealthy people are lazy free loaders who dont bother getting a job because the gov' will take care of them

obviouslly free loaders exist, and always will....but i cant accept the idea that they make up a majority of those who benefit from the programs in question

think of how you would feel/act/behave if you lost your job tomorrow, i'd imagine most wouldn't just say "fuck it, big O is gonna take care of me, im good"....what reason is there to assume that the average american would act so dramatically different?
[/quote]


I didn't say people should have to have a job to get healthcare.
I was distinguishing the difference between the two.

And a lot of people that don't have a job do have healthcare.
It is called medicare or medicaid. A lot of the poor are on it already.

Anyway, I am not against universal healthcare at all.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289864683' post='941766']
I prefer that we do things according to the rule of law and the moral imperative, years from now we will all be gone, but our ideals re our democracy and how history looks upon us will be telling.
[/quote]



You think I prefer to do things that aren't according to the law
and have no morales? I guess we should stop doing it to
our own men then, right?

Also, I don't want to hear anyone saying "we should have done
more" after the next attack. I want to do the more now to prevent
a future attack.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289914460' post='941889']
You think I prefer to do things that aren't according to the law
and have no morales? I guess we should stop doing it to
our own men then, right?

Also, I don't want to hear anyone saying "we should have done
more" after the next attack. I want to do the more now to prevent
a future attack.
[/quote]


Why do you keep equating the two?

Again, I have no reason not to believe based on expert after expert saying so and based on that no attack has happend since Obmama signed the executive order against it, that it was necessary or that we couldn't have gotten the info without it.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289915079' post='941896']
Why do you keep equating the two?

Again, I have no reason not to believe based on expert after expert saying so and based on that no attack has happend since Obmama signed the executive order against it, that it was necessary or that we couldn't have gotten the info without it.
[/quote]



Because being waterboarded is being waterboarded.
If being waterboarded is torture, then it is torture.
So we don't torture our own men at the same level.
It is still nonetheless torture. You can't say it is only
torture when we use it on combatants, and not torture
when we don't.

The intent is to gather information. Not to cause bodily harm.


We stopped attacks from info gathered from it.
You can say we could have got the info without,
the fact is though, we got the info with it.


Whatever though. I am just going to agree to disagree.

[Jamie_B]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289917349' post='941908']

[/quote]


That explains exactly how I feel when I read posts
that calls something torture, then acts like it isn't
torture in other instances. It is like standing on
both sides of the fence.


"It's toture!


Except when we don't use it on radical Muslims."


Whatever though. Obviously we will never see eye to eye
on this, or just about anything else.

[Jamie_B]

again

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289914460' post='941889']
You think I prefer to do things that aren't according to the law
and have no morales? I guess we should stop doing it to
our own men then, right?

Also, [b]I don't want to hear anyone saying "we should have done
more" after the next attack. I want to do the more now to prevent
a future attack.[/b]
[/quote]


I think Jon Stewart said it best (paraphrasing) "We can't continue to INVADE SOVEREIGN NATIONS in the hopes of keeping 12 men in a basement somewhere from conspiring to attack the USA."

As for prevention...[url="http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/atran09.1/atran09.1_index.html"]perhaps less is more.[/url]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289927732' post='941993']
I think Jon Stewart said it best (paraphrasing) "We can't continue to INVADE SOVEREIGN NATIONS in the hopes of keeping 12 men in a basement somewhere from conspiring to attack the USA."[/quote]



We weren't talking about invading anyone.


But what SOVEREIGN NATIONS did we attack to keep 12 men in a basement?

So like Jon Stewart, that reference was dumb.


Anyway, can we invade unsovereign nations?


Oh puh-leez, puh-leez, puh-purdy puh-lezz!!!

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289928522' post='942001']
We weren't talking about invading anyone.


But what SOVEREIGN NATIONS did we attack [b]to keep 12 men in a basement[/b]?

So like Jon Stewart, that reference was dumb.


Anyway, can we invade unsovereign nations?


Oh puh-leez, puh-leez, puh-purdy puh-lezz!!!
[/quote]
My bad, I'm jumping all the way back to starting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which sorta has to do with torture and the idea of keeping America safe from the next attack.

And to clear up the bolded pretend I wrote it like this "...in the hopes of keeping 12 men (whose current location is in a basement somewhere) from conspiring to attack the USA.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289928812' post='942004']
My bad, I'm jumping all the way back to starting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which sorta has to do with torture and the idea of keeping America safe from the next attack.
[/quote]



Can we just rename this thread the Oldschooler defends his beilefs" thread?

Oh wait, I have that power, just putting it up for a vote though, I guess.


I do not think we started these wars. They could have been prevented.
The people in charge of those Nations didn't want to go those routes though.


Also, it is pretty stupid to say we invaded anyone to keep 12 men in a basement.
Even for a stupid comedian to say.


Also, I am not condoning torture. Because I don't think waterboarding is torture.
If it is torture, then we should cease doing it to our own men, in any form or fashion.


By the way just more stuff for people to degarde or question me about..

I am agnostic, even though I was raised in a Pentecostal family
and say "God and "Lord" and "prayers" alot.

I am Pro Choice. But am against women using it as birth control. And I think
the father should have some say. Because as it stands now, the man can
not want the kid and be forced to pay support. Or want the kid and be told
to fuck off.

I am for legalizing all drugs. Not some, all.

I am for Civil Unions, but against Gay Marriage. Only because I think you
would be opening a door for other forms of marriage to exist.

I also think more people should spay or neuter their pets.

I think all cars should come with a breathlyzer installed.

I think business owners should be allowed to determine if their
customers are allowed to smoke in their establishment.


I think there needs to be a limit that people are allowed to be on welfare.
And I think that program should include more help for schooling and
other means of actually getting people on their feet.


I believe yellow and black only looks good on bees. And all other
living things where yellow and black should be waterboarded,
stoned to death, shot, hung and drawn and quartered.

Believe it or not, I have more thoughts and beliefs.
If anyone wants to know what I think on a subject
not listed above, just ask.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289930166' post='942013']
Can we just rename this thread the Oldschooler defends his beilefs" thread?

Oh wait, I have that power, just putting it up for a vote though, I guess.


I do not think we started these wars. They could have been prevented.
The people in charge of those Nations didn't want to go those routes though.
That is my opinion though.


[b]Also, it is pretty stupid to say we invaded anyone to keep 12 men in a basement.
Even for a stupid comedian to say. [/b]


Also, I am not condoning torture. Because I don't think waterboarding is torture.
If it is torture, then we should cease doing it to our own men, in any form or fashion.


By the way just more stuff for people to degarde or question me about..

I am agnostic, even though I was raised in a Pentecostal family
and say "God and "Lord" and "prayers" alot.

I am Pro Choice. But am against women using it as birth control. And I think
the father should have some say. Because as it stands now, the man can
not want the kid and be forced to pay support. Or want the kid and be told
to fuck off.

I am for legalizing all drugs. Not some, all.

I am for Civil Unions, but against Gay Marriage. Only because I think you
would be opening a door for other forms of marriage to exist.

I also think more people should spay or neuter their pets.

I think all cars should come with a breathlyzer installed.

I think business owners should be allowed to determine if their
customers are allowed to smoke in their establishment.


I think there needs to be a limit that people are allowed to be on welfare.
And I think that program should include more help for schooling and
other means of actually getting people on their feet.

I believe yellow and black only looks good on bees. And all other
living things where yellow and black should be waterboarded,
stoned to death, shot, hung and drawn and quartered.


Believe it or not, I have more thoughts and beliefs.
If anyone wants to know what I think on a subject
not listed above, just ask.
[/quote]

I'm not even asking for you to defend your beliefs. I just posted an essay pertaining to how we can go about keeping America safe from the next attack that contained ideas not yet mentioned in this thread, and tied them back to some of the haymakers that have been thrown around in the previous pages.

Also re-read my edit, no one is "keeping people in a basement." The point was hundreds of billions of dollars, millions of troops, tens of thousands of lives WASTED and yet we still won't be safe from a small group of intelligent, angry men who conspire (likely in a hidden place such as a basement instead of the halls of local government) to bring harm to our country.

[Jamie_B]

Mancow didnt think waterboarding was torture either, until he was waterboarded.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289930861' post='942020']
I'm not even asking for you to defend your beliefs. I just posted an essay pertaining to how we can go about keeping America safe from the next attack that contained ideas not yet mentioned in this thread, and tied them back to some of the haymakers that have been thrown around in the previous pages.

Also re-read my edit, no one is "keeping people in a basement." The point was hundreds of billions of dollars, millions of troops, tens of thousands of lives WASTED and yet we still won't be safe from a small group of intelligent, angry men who conspire (likely in a hidden place such as a basement instead of the halls of local government) to bring harm to our country.
[/quote]


I am not going to defend all the money spent. Or say lives were wasted.
I think if we give up and don't make sure we win the wars there, then
the lives were wasted. Because they fought for nothing. And so was
the money spent.

Even though Bush and others may have had ulterior motives, I think
the wars were justified. Saddam wasn't going to stop. He made it
known that he was only waiting for sanctions to end and weapons
inspectors to leave.

The Taliban chose to keep Bin Laden as their friend. And not turn
him over.

They both could have prevented the wars, they chose not to.

I do believe a lot of our policies in the region need to change though.
And I mean a 180 degree change.



[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289930919' post='942021']
Mancow didnt think waterboarding was torture either, until he was waterboarded.


[/quote]



Then he should be against it being down to our own men then.

[Jamie_B]

Or at least understand the difference between training and torture.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289931725' post='942034']
I am not going to defend all the money spent. Or say lives were wasted.
I think if we give up and don't make sure we win the wars there, then
the lives were wasted. Because they fought for nothing. And so was
the money spent.

Even though Bush and others may have had ulterior motives, I think
the wars were justified. Saddam wasn't going to stop. He made it
known that he was only waiting for sanctions to end and weapons
inspectors to leave.

[b]The Taliban chose to keep Bin Laden as their friend. And not turn
him over. [/b]

They both could have prevented the wars, they chose not to.

I do believe a lot of our policies in the region need to change though.
And I mean a 180 degree change.
[/quote]

If you get the chance check out that link because it talks directly about why there is a refusal to turn over Bin Laden as well as why what we (America) think of as clear cut, no-brainer solutions, don't hold any weight with these nomadic tribes. And that relates directly to, at least in Atran's mind, why we are doing more harm than good with a full blown military onslaught.

[quote]Now we need to bring this perspective to Afghanistan and Pakistan — one that is smart about cultures, customs and connections. The present policy of focusing on troop strength and drones, and trying to win over people by improving their lives with Western-style aid programs, only continues a long history of foreign involvement and failure. Reading a thousand years of Arab and Muslim history would show little in the way of patterns that would have helped to predict 9/11, but our predicament in Afghanistan rhymes with the past like a limerick.[/quote]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1289927732' post='941993']
As for prevention...[url="http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/atran09.1/atran09.1_index.html"]perhaps less is more.[/url]
[/quote]



I just got done reading it. I can not say I disagree
with the crux of what he is saying.

But I strongly oppose letting the Taliban regain
any form of power.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289932090' post='942038']
Or at least understand the difference between training and torture.
[/quote]



[url="http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-water-boarding-first-hand_06.html"]http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-water-boarding-first-hand_06.html[/url]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289933487' post='942059']
[url="http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-water-boarding-first-hand_06.html"]http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-water-boarding-first-hand_06.html[/url]
[/quote]

http://mediamatters.org/research/201001260001

The important part...

[quote]FACT: Bush DOJ, Senate committee agree interrogations, training are not comparable

Bush DOJ memo: Individuals undergoing military's SERE training are "obviously in a very different situation from detainees undergoing interrogation." In a May 30, 2005, Office of Legal Counsel memo, Steven G. Bradbury, the Bush administration's principal deputy assistant attorney general at the time, wrote that individuals undergoing the military's Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) training are "obviously in a very different situation from detainees undergoing interrogation; SERE trainees know it is part of a training program, not a real-life interrogation regime, they presumably know it will last only a short time, and they presumably have assurances that they will not be significantly harmed by the training."

Senate Armed Services Committee: "There are fundamental differences between a SERE school exercise and a real world interrogation." From an April 22, 2009, Senate Armed Services Committee report:

(U) SERE school techniques are designed to simulate abusive tactics used by our enemies. There are fundamental differences between a SERE school exercise and a real world interrogation. At SERE school, students are subject to an extensive medical and psychological pre-screening prior to being subjected to physical and psychological pressures. The schools impose strict limits on the frequency, duration, and/or intensity of certain techniques. Psychologists are present throughout SERE training to intervene should the need arise and to help students cope with associated stress. And SERE school is voluntary; students are even given a special phrase they can use to immediately stop the techniques from being used against them.[/quote]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289935627' post='942077']
[url="http://mediamatters.org/research/201001260001"]http://mediamatters....ch/201001260001[/url]

The important part...


[/quote]






You said Mancow didn't think it was torture either until it was done to him.
I said he should be against it done to our men then if he does.
Then you said or at least know the difference between training and
torture.

So was Mancow being interrogated, or was what was done to him
more like training?

I saw the video, I know the answer.

That is like saying Police Officers that are tazed as part of their
training aren't really tazed because it is in a controlled enviroment.


Also, I posted a link from a guy that had it done to him.
He said it was not torture. There were also comments
from others that did have it done to them. They said it was.
My point is, if you think waterboarding is torture, and should
not be used as an interrogation tactic, then we should
not be doing it to our own men. You can say "well it is training"
over and over and over and over and over again, like you have,
but the fact remains, if it is torture to waterboard someone, then
we are torturing our own men. It might not be to the same extremes,
but it would nonetheless still be torture. You can dance and dance
and dance around that all you want. You are entitled to your own
opinion. But you can not move the ball to make your own facts.
If you are against waterboarding, then you should be against
it being done to our own men. It's that simple.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289957949' post='942197']




You said Mancow didn't think it was torture either until it was done to him.
I said he should be against it done to our men then if he does.
Then you said or at least know the difference between training and
torture.

So was Mancow being interrogated, or was what was done to him
more like training?

I saw the video, I know the answer.

That is like saying Police Officers that are tazed as part of their
training aren't really tazed because it is in a controlled enviroment.


Also, I posted a link from a guy that had it done to him.
He said it was not torture. There were also comments
from others that did have it done to them. They said it was.
My point is, if you think waterboarding is torture, and should
not be used as an interrogation tactic, then we should
not be doing it to our own men. You can say "well it is training"
over and over and over and over and over again, like you have,
but the fact remains, if it is torture to waterboard someone, then
we are torturing our own men. It might not be to the same extremes,
but it would nonetheless still be torture. You can dance and dance
and dance around that all you want. You are entitled to your own
opinion. But you can not move the ball to make your own facts.
If you are against waterboarding, then you should be against
it being done to our own men. It's that simple.
[/quote]


I'm sorry but you are wrong. The DOJ, the Senate committee on interrogations ect..ect.. say you are. Their opinions on this holds more weight than either of ours.

I have provided facts that they are not the same thing. I showed you the SERE and CIA water-boarding technique were not the same.

You are simply trying to group in something that isnt the same thing in order to justify it for anyone that may oppose us. It's akin to "if its good enough for our guys..."

Training to prepare for what an enemy combatant might do to you and knowing that is is coming and what to expect is not the same thing as water-boarding the enemy.

There has been no dancing by me, you are casting a wide net in order to justify the unjustifiable.

If this is about saving lives, why dont we just feel up grandma or scan her with some scanners at the airport that show you naked and save the picture of it.....oh wait...

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289958770' post='942199']
I'm sorry but you are wrong. The DOJ, the Senate committee on interrogations ect..ect.. say you are. Their opinions on this holds more weight than either of ours.

I have provided facts that they are not the same thing. I showed you the SERE and CIA water-boarding technique were not the same.

You are simply trying to group in something that isnt the same thing in order to justify it for anyone that may oppose us. It's akin to "if its good enough for our guys..."

Training to prepare for what an enemy combatant might do to you and knowing that is is coming and what to expect is not the same thing as water-boarding the enemy.

There has been no dancing by me, you are casting a wide net in order to justify the unjustifiable.

If this is about saving lives, why dont we just feel up grandma or scan her with some scanners at the airport that show you naked and save the picture of it.....oh wait...
[/quote]





What do you expect them to say? That they torture their own men?

Why do they waterboard soldiers? So in case it is done to them, they know how to handle it. That's why.
In other words, they try and prepare them for an interrogation tactic. They are put through live demonstrations
in a simulated captive environment which inoculate them to the experience of high intensity stress and duress.
With SERE training, all of the trainees are screened multiple times for psychological conditions.
Why do you suppose they do that? The military pre-selects trainees for SERE schools based
on their ability to stay psychologically healthy.

Why would the military go through all if it is not comparable to what we do to terrorists?
Because it is just something to add to a resume? Because it is just hazing compared
to what is really done? No, because it is comparable. And if you call it torture, then
you have to call it being tortured in every instance.

Jesse Ventura had it done to him, he said it was torture. I have seen some
say it is, I have seen some say it isn't. So who do you believe? The one's
that say it isn't, unless it is done to someone else?

You tried to use Mancow having it done to him and him saying it is torture.
But when I said well then he should be against it done to our own men,
you act like that isn't torture. In other words, you talked out of both sides
of your mouth. I just think it is ridiculous that you are OK with
our military using it on our own men in any fashion, but are so strongly
opposed to us using it to interrogate people. If you are against it, be against it.

Why couldn't you just say "Yes, we should stop doing it to our own people then too."?
You think you would lose this arguement if you did? No, you would actually just end it.


But here, I'll do us and everyone on this board a favor and end it now.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1290006502' post='942284']
What do you expect them to say? That they torture their own men?

Why do they waterboard soldiers? So in case it is done to them, they know how to handle it. That's why.
In other words, they try and prepare them for an interrogation tactic. They are put through live demonstrations
in a simulated captive environment which inoculate them to the experience of high intensity stress and duress.
With SERE training, all of the trainees are screened multiple times for psychological conditions.
Why do you suppose they do that? The military pre-selects trainees for SERE schools based
on their ability to stay psychologically healthy.

Why would the military go through all if it is not comparable to what we do to terrorists?
Because it is just something to add to a resume? Because it is just hazing compared
to what is really done? No, because it is comparable. And if you call it torture, then
you have to call it being tortured in every instance.

Jesse Ventura had it done to him, he said it was torture. I have seen some
say it is, I have seen some say it isn't. So who do you believe? The one's
that say it isn't, unless it is done to someone else?

You tried to use Mancow having it done to him and him saying it is torture.
But when I said well then he should be against it done to our own men,
you act like that isn't torture. In other words, you talked out of both sides
of your mouth. I just think it is ridiculous that you are OK with
our military using it on our own men in any fashion, but are so strongly
opposed to us using it to interrogate people. If you are against it, be against it.

Why couldn't you just say "Yes, we should stop doing it to our own people then too."?
You think you would lose this arguement if you did? No, you would actually just end it.


But here, I'll do us and everyone on this board a favor and end it now.
[/quote]


As you said these men are put specially chosen, they arent your average run of the mill soldiers, and even then its only those that are "Level C" and above. As in special forces types. Even your own example Jessie Venture was a damned navy seal. The purpose of the training was to teach the soldiers to prepare for what they might expect but its not the only thing they teach them, SERE stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape. They teach them skills they might need if they get captured by the enemy so they can survive and hopefully escape. This is simply about training our special forces types to be able to resist and survive and hopefully escape. Ventura says its torture because it is, but we do it to our own for survival training purposes. Not for interrogation techniques. THAT is the difference.

[ChicagoBengal]

I would just like to point out that listening to Mancow is / was torture.