MSNBC's Anchor O'Donnell is a Socialist

[BengalBacker]

I posted a video showing a host, or anchor, or whatever on msnbc saying that he's Socialist.

That's all I did. I didn't comment, and haven't until now.

Yet this thread immediately turned into bashing me and defending the Socialist. I think that's pretty telling of a lot of things.

Carry on.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1289593254' post='940330']
I posted a video showing a host, or anchor, or whatever on msnbc saying that he's Socialist.

That's all I did. I didn't comment, and haven't until now.

Yet this thread immediately turned into bashing me and defending the Socialist. I think that's pretty telling of a lot of things.

Carry on.
[/quote]


Did you watch the response video i posted?

[Xombie]

[quote name='creechnasty' timestamp='1289526858' post='940102']
Not to nitpick or ruin this wonderfully respectful debate but I'm fairly sure employers pay for unemployment, not employees paying into it.

Carry on.
[/quote]
Absolutely correct. When my previous employer had to close his business, I did not apply for unemployment until he gave me his blessing, since he was paying for what is basically unemployment insurance.

[Xombie]

And as a somewhat infrequent poster to this site, I must say this is truly becoming a cesspit of virtual egos, and that saddens me a bit. Homer tends to talk down to alot of people after becoming inflated by the near constant praise that was heaped upon him for his early displays of impressive reading, interesting life experiences, and appreciable wisdom in his angles of perception of various subjects. This should not be acceptable behavior. Oldschooler roars at points that do not run parallel to his views, because, wrongly, he feels that is the only proper respect that is his due after all the selfless time he has offered in the superb scouring of Bengals' news he has done, and perhaps this mentality was forged in the defense of his work on the main focus of Go-Bengals, yet his grudges, be they real or imagined, should have no place in a place that is meant to have reasonable, intelligent discourse on some weighty, personal matters, be they political, philosophical, or scientific.

But the one that saddens me the most has to be Jamie. Ever since I started tossing my two pennies on the J&W forums, I have always thought of him as the living conscience of it, much as Oldschooler is the heart of the Bengals' forum. He always was the necessary voice of reason when others would push things well beyond the point of good-natured debate and good taste. He was always willing to play Devil's Advocate to allow the evolution of a thread to allow a chance of a mind to be changed. Now, it just seems he looks for a reason to insult.

As much as I truly loathe making a post like this, I felt it was necessary, because this is poison. No thread seems to go more than 4 posts without a pissing contest getting started. Please stop it. All three of you guys are obviously intelligent, all three of you guys have chose different ways to get around this proverbial barn called life. Accept that with good grace before you taint an otherwise terrific place to be. So, take a breather, realize how childish this shit has obviously become, and realize you all are better than this. Please.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1289593254' post='940330']
I posted a video showing a host, or anchor, or whatever on msnbc saying that he's Socialist.

That's all I did. I didn't comment, and haven't until now.

Yet this thread immediately turned into bashing me and defending the Socialist. I think that's pretty telling of a lot of things.

Carry on.
[/quote]
You know, Backer, when I look back over the past couple of decades and see the shambles that this nation has become, I naturally want to ponder just how the US got turned into a such a mess. You are almost the same age as I am, so it's safe to suggest that you have witnessed, more or less, the same series of events which have gutted this nation domestically. And on the foreign side of events, we have watched our so-called leaders as they become more bellicose and more willing to twist international law into a pretzel to serve the so-called "interests" of this country. This disturbs me and I know it disturbs you, too, as you have expressed some similar dissatisfaction from time to time.

In our lifetime, the United States has morphed from an economically strong nation in which at least some mild form of the "American Dream" was available to the bulk of the population into a crippled shadow of its former self, one in which the bulk of the population has very little to look forward to because the jobs are not there anymore, and thus, the potential for a modicum of upward social mobility has disappeared, too. We have gutted our industries, we have abandoned the family farm, we have left entire communities to rot on the vine while a bunch of Nero-like politicians have fiddled away in D.C. and state legislatures all over this land. We have embroiled ourselves in a series of undeclared "wars" and each of these expressions of military force throughout the world have rested on dubious causes, going all the way back to Vietnam.

That's a rough sketch of the landscape in which we live, but that not what this post is about. This post poses questions about personal responsibility, not only in our duties at citizens, but also as autonomous individuals bearing some moral responsibility for the world around us both in the large and in the small. Just how much of the debris that surrounds us is my fault, or yours? I'm not asking for explicit answers here; the questions are metaphorical. But that doesn't make them any less real or less important. In the deep of the night, when we have trouble sleeping, and we wonder about these kinds of things, just how honest are we being with ourselves?

Speaking for myself only now, I think that some of the responsibility belongs to me. I "own" at least some of the deindustrialization of America, I "own" at least some of the devastating havoc we have wrought in foreign lands. My toolbox is becoming barren and there's blood on my hands. And I say these things not for the purposes of melodrama, I say them because of one important fact: I have often actively fought against many of the very policies which have brought this calamity upon us. In the streets and with my wallet. And yet, I still haven't done enough. How do I know? Look around you.

What is worse, and let me stress this important consideration because I think that, for different reasons, you agree with the general conclusion, we are both of the age in which we are coming to realize that twenty or thirty years from now, when folks are throwing dirt on our graves, we will have left a world less bright, less happy, and less prosperous than we had hoped to leave behind.

Obviously, there is plenty of blame to go around. There isn't a single one of us who couldn't have done just a little bit better at various moments in our lives. But I have got to be honest here, all this personal cry-baby shit has to stop. You start a thread without comment, which forces folks to ponder your motives and to situate it within a reasonable context which conforms to your past experssion of views. Speaking for myself, that's what I did and you know what--I think I hammered that nail right on the head. And I did so in a thoughtful and mildly funny way. Educational, too.

Yet, when you return, all you have to say is that it is "telling" that people bash you. But you don't have the gumption to "tell" anything else. Do you honestly think that people can't see through that bullshit. I mean, really...

So, now, back towards the comments I made early in this post, because I'm going to "tell" you, up front and without any precocious wiggling around, just what I think. I think that a lot of the evil in this world comes from ignorance. I think that not enough people spend enough time performing their duties as citizens. I say that knowing that we all have a set of mundane day-to-day responsibilites which consume the bulk of our time. I'm not immune to this criticism either. It's one of the reasons why I have consistently spoken out about the "pursuit" of knowledge, the "pursuit" of truth, the "pursuit" of a better world to pass down to the young'uns following us.

Worse, there is a certain "practical" immorality which accompanies our ignorance. When people stop investigating too soon it often leads to harm in the real world. When people allow themselves to get "comfortable" in an ideological straitjacket, they often support the kind of actions which have little conformance with reality, but which in effect, create a reality in the world which is much, much less than it could be. Want proof? Once again, look around you.

And even worse, the sort of folks who accept the "easy" answers tend to be the ones who are susceptible to manipulation by those in the know. So they end up tacitly, or even explicitly, endorsing behaviors which are anathema to the common weal. Hence, the "blood on our hands" isn't just metaphorical, it's real. At least it is real if one has to balls to take a close and honest view of the appendages.

But worst of all is this. The "half-assers" tend to become the most dangerous crowd of all. Because they are the ones most willing to resort to a mindless exertion of force or even violence whenever they "feel" their self-interest is threatened. Unable to adequately identify their "interests" in a autonomous and rational way, they will express their "feelings" with a vehemence that can be quite chilling to debate, if not outrightly suppressing that debate itself through the implicit threat of force. One could say that such folks tend to care only about their "feelings" and are in fact blind to the fact that in the act of "protecting" them, they are more than willing to trample all over those who might get in their way. It's one of the reasons why all these wars--with all the damage to, and loss of, innocent lives--become possible. It's one of the reasons why this nation no longer lives up to its moral potential as the first nation in the world which insisted that humans are capable of self-governance. And sadly, its one of the reasons why, when many folks appear to be praising our founding fathers, or Lincoln, or any number of other worthy and notable figures in our history, they are really shitting all over them with a kind of dysentery-like spew of nonsense, bile and venom.

Lastly, and again speaking for myself only, I'm in agreement with the sentiment of Tiger (I think) who said: when is enough, enough? It's time to stand up and be counted. And if that means that some folks, who tend to be clueless to all the harm they are enabling in the world, get their "feelings" hurt in the process, then tough. Don't be a cry-baby. We're only here on this planet for "four-score" if we are lucky, but the "ideas" we embrace and support tend to live much longer and affect the world in much more powerful ways than the transience of our simple existence.

In any case, I think what I have said is "telling."

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1289614876' post='940438']
And as a somewhat infrequent poster to this site, I must say this is truly becoming a cesspit of virtual egos, and that saddens me a bit. Homer tends to talk down to alot of people after becoming inflated by the near constant praise that was heaped upon him for his early displays of impressive reading, interesting life experiences, and appreciable wisdom in his angles of perception of various subjects. This should not be acceptable behavior. Oldschooler roars at points that do not run parallel to his views, because, wrongly, he feels that is the only proper respect that is his due after all the selfless time he has offered in the superb scouring of Bengals' news he has done, and perhaps this mentality was forged in the defense of his work on the main focus of Go-Bengals, yet his grudges, be they real or imagined, should have no place in a place that is meant to have reasonable, intelligent discourse on some weighty, personal matters, be they political, philosophical, or scientific.

But the one that saddens me the most has to be Jamie. Ever since I started tossing my two pennies on the J&W forums, I have always thought of him as the living conscience of it, much as Oldschooler is the heart of the Bengals' forum. He always was the necessary voice of reason when others would push things well beyond the point of good-natured debate and good taste. He was always willing to play Devil's Advocate to allow the evolution of a thread to allow a chance of a mind to be changed. Now, it just seems he looks for a reason to insult.

As much as I truly loathe making a post like this, I felt it was necessary, because this is poison. No thread seems to go more than 4 posts without a pissing contest getting started. Please stop it. All three of you guys are obviously intelligent, all three of you guys have chose different ways to get around this proverbial barn called life. Accept that with good grace before you taint an otherwise terrific place to be. So, take a breather, realize how childish this shit has obviously become, and realize you all are better than this. Please.
[/quote]
Your comments are well-noted. Even if I disagree.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1289614876' post='940438']
And as a somewhat infrequent poster to this site, I must say this is truly becoming a cesspit of virtual egos, and that saddens me a bit. Homer tends to talk down to alot of people after becoming inflated by the near constant praise that was heaped upon him for his early displays of impressive reading, interesting life experiences, and appreciable wisdom in his angles of perception of various subjects. This should not be acceptable behavior. Oldschooler roars at points that do not run parallel to his views, because, wrongly, he feels that is the only proper respect that is his due after all the selfless time he has offered in the superb scouring of Bengals' news he has done, and perhaps this mentality was forged in the defense of his work on the main focus of Go-Bengals, yet his grudges, be they real or imagined, should have no place in a place that is meant to have reasonable, intelligent discourse on some weighty, personal matters, be they political, philosophical, or scientific.

But the one that saddens me the most has to be Jamie. Ever since I started tossing my two pennies on the J&W forums, I have always thought of him as the living conscience of it, much as Oldschooler is the heart of the Bengals' forum. He always was the necessary voice of reason when others would push things well beyond the point of good-natured debate and good taste. He was always willing to play Devil's Advocate to allow the evolution of a thread to allow a chance of a mind to be changed. Now, it just seems he looks for a reason to insult.

As much as I truly loathe making a post like this, I felt it was necessary, because this is poison. No thread seems to go more than 4 posts without a pissing contest getting started. Please stop it. All three of you guys are obviously intelligent, all three of you guys have chose different ways to get around this proverbial barn called life. Accept that with good grace before you taint an otherwise terrific place to be. So, take a breather, realize how childish this shit has obviously become, and realize you all are better than this. Please.
[/quote]


Don't think that I don't appreciate what you're trying to say but I sat and watched a movie tonight about the current economic crises, it brings to light some stuff that I have been reading about for the past two years and some stuff I didnt even know. I watch as people quibble over socialism and blame it for the current downfall, and I have never been more angry. If I have lost objectivity its because I see people line up fighting the very thing the plutocracy wants them to fight the very thing that can save us from them and they are being used by them with words like "liberty" or "freedom" ad nauseum. There are real reasons to criticize Obama and people are missing the entire boat on it in order to waive a flag over a news commentator. If that infuriates me and I lose control sometimes because I want people to wake up and pay attention, then it infuriates me. I dont know what to tell you. I am really really angry over this and really angry that good well meaning people are calling tea parties to be angry over stuff that is a distraction (and some of it part of the solutions) to what the real problem is.

Backer said something once in this forum and it may be the only thing I have ever agreed whole heartedly with him on in here.

This isnt a game.

It isnt cute and it isnt something I am willing to sit down on.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289625684' post='940459']
Don't think that I don't appreciate what you're trying to say but I sat and watched a movie tonight about the current economic crises, it brings to light some stuff that I have been reading about for the past two years and some stuff I didnt even know. I watch as people quibble over socialism and blame it for the current downfall, and I have never been more angry. If I have lost objectivity its because I see people line up fighting the very thing the plutocracy wants them to fight the very thing that can save us from them and they are being used by them with words like "liberty" or "freedom" ad nauseum. There are real reasons to criticize Obama and people are missing the entire boat on it in order to waive a flag over a news commentator. If that infuriates me and I lose control sometimes because I want people to wake up and pay attention, then it infuriates me. I dont know what to tell you. I am really really angry over this and really angry that good well meaning people are calling tea parties to be angry over stuff that is a distraction (and some of it part of the solutions) to what the real problem is.

Backer said something once in this forum and it may be the only thing I have ever agreed whole heartedly with him on in here.

This isnt a game.

It isnt cute and it isnt something I am willing to sit down on.
[/quote]

but the insults and condescending tone ruin the possibility of true open conversation and it is almost as shameful and paralyzing as partisan politics.....

This whole "I don't agree with you so you must be an idiot" attitude is ruining this forum and on a much larger part this country....

We shit on opposing views....

Trying to fix this country should not be a dick swinging contest...

...and that is what this forum is becoming.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1289627426' post='940463']
but the insults and condescending tone ruin the possibility of true open conversation and it is almost as shameful and paralyzing as partisan politics.....

This whole "I don't agree with you so you must be an idiot" attitude is ruining this forum and on a much larger part this country....

We shit on opposing views....
[/quote]


The opposing view in this mess is very very very evil and is manipulating people, I dont know how else to say that.

I literally sat in that movie tonight and you would have thought I was a black girl at a horror flick screaming at the screen. LOL

If this were war and we were on the battlefield with some of the people that caused this mess, I'd be damned if I didnt shoot them in the head and be happy to do so. But the truth is we would never be on a battlefield together because they would be the ones sending me off to die for the geopolitic they hold dear.

I like you TJ, I like Backer, I like Stray, and when Old isnt being an apologist for bad policy out of what I view as a superficial patriotism (and dont think I dont say that knowingly) I do like him.

But we are losing sight of who to be angry at because we are fighting each other because thats what they want, if were fighting each other we cant fight them. Washington deserves a good amount of our anger but when are we going to march K street? When are we going to march Wall Street?

When I see my fellow man hurting over this stuff and I see them defending those who did it to them, I get angry and frustrated. If my own failings as a human being because I am still learning how to harness that anger into productivity then I will apologize for that.

But I will never apologize for what I view as richeous indignation, and I will not stop trying to get folks to open their eyes to how they are being manipulated.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289628230' post='940466']


, and when Old isnt being an apologist for bad policy out of what I view as a superficial patriotism (and dont think I dont say that knowingly) I do like him.


[/quote]


This is a perfect example of the problem. This is a very anonymous medium, and if we can not accept what people are saying as basically true, this is a failed experiment in human communication. Assuming to know that a fellow member's view, experiences, philosophies, etc, etc, are not valid or true is the ugliest kind of blind prejudice, and you will never value what they might say. I may not like what Old has said from time to time, and I certainly have vocally disagreed with him in the past, but I assume that he is at least being forthright with the angle that he is approaching a topic.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1289614876' post='940438']
And as a somewhat infrequent poster to this site, I must say this is truly becoming a cesspit of virtual egos, and that saddens me a bit. Homer tends to talk down to alot of people after becoming inflated by the near constant praise that was heaped upon him for his early displays of impressive reading, interesting life experiences, and appreciable wisdom in his angles of perception of various subjects. This should not be acceptable behavior.


Oldschooler roars at points that do not run parallel to his views, because, wrongly, he feels that is the only proper respect that is his due after all the selfless time he has offered in the superb scouring of Bengals' news he has done, and perhaps this mentality was forged in the defense of his work on the main focus of Go-Bengals, yet his grudges, be they real or imagined, should have no place in a place that is meant to have reasonable, intelligent discourse on some weighty, personal matters, be they political, philosophical, or scientific. [/quote]


You say Homer talking down to people should not be acceptable behavior.
Then go on to say my "grudges, be they real or imagined". How can they be
imagined when you yourself points out Homer's behavior, and it being unacceptable?

Yes it is a clash of egos. I admit that. And I admit after having some pretty shitty days in my
real World, that getting on here for an ecscape, and seeing that unacceptable behavior
being directed towards me AGAIN, made me snap. Yes I admit, I overreacted. But I
was infuriated. When I told him to show me the respect I was showing him, and he
(and Jamie) said that I have to EARN their respect. In other words, I have to EARN
the right for them to talk to me acceptably, I snapped even more. For that, I apologize.
And I am truly embarrassed.

And when Go came in and basically said it was OK. It humiliated me.

But you are right. I think me being on this site for 6+ years, that I would have
earned more respect from some here than they are willing to show me. And
even if I haven't done enough to earn it in their eyes, then they should know that,
like you stated, it is unacceptable behavior. Ecspecially once it is pointed out to them.

I can not control how people talk to me (well actually I can, but I don't want to abuse the
powers given to me). I can only control how I react to how people talk to me. I need to
show more tact than the people that have no tact and are intolerant of views that are
so different than their own. I will definitely work on that and do my part.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1289630598' post='940468']
This is a perfect example of the problem. This is a very anonymous medium, and if we can not accept what people are saying as basically true, this is a failed experiment in human communication. Assuming to know that a fellow member's view, experiences, philosophies, etc, etc, are not valid or true is the ugliest kind of blind prejudice, and you will never value what they might say. I may not like what Old has said from time to time, and I certainly have vocally disagreed with him in the past, but I assume that he is at least being forthright with the angle that he is approaching a topic.
[/quote]


Fair enough, but I'm a little worn down by what I would call apple pie patriotism getting in the way of being critical of what I view as morally bankrupt behavior.

The analogy I would use is this. Parents love their kids, but when they do wrong they call them on it, they dont just love their kids and ignore their bad behavior because they love their kids.

Thats what I see happening.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289659029' post='940492']
Fair enough, but I'm a little worn down by what I would call apple pie patriotism getting in the way of being critical of what I view as morally bankrupt behavior.

The analogy I would use is this. Parents love their kids, but when they do wrong they call them on it, they dont just love their kids and ignore their bad behavior because they love their kids.

Thats what I see happening.
[/quote]


You just justified what he said was a problem in this forum.
And you went on to compare us as you being the Adult and me being the Child.
But you did say you loved me. So, I guess there's that.

Anyway, that attitude that you have makes you look elitists. You and Homer both
display that attitude. And let me assure you right now, you're not. Contrary to what
you and Homer believe your opinion is just that, YOUR opinion. And you know what they say about those.

You both need to get off your high horses, get over yourselves, whatever. Because if
you think degrading and talking down to people is going to help anything, you are
sadly mistaken.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289660047' post='940496']
You just justified what he said was a problem in this forum.
And you went on to compare us as you being the Adult and me being the Child.
But you did say you loved me. So, I guess there's that.

Anyway, that attitude that you have makes you look elitists. You and Homer both
display that attitude. And let me assure you right now, you're not. Contrary to what
you and Homer believe your opinion is just that, YOUR opinion. And you know what they say about those.

You both need to get off your high horses, get over yourselves, whatever. Because if
you think degrading and talking down to people is going to help anything, you are
sadly mistaken.
[/quote]


Old I have spent the past two years reading and researching about what happened with this economy, if I get frustrated at people who havent wanting to talk in simplistic terms about things that are on the side stage at this concert while they completely miss the main show then so be it. This isnt a matter of opinion in this case, the facts are out there on the table for those wanting to do the work. And you'll find the guilty come from both parties.

The same holds true for water boarding, the facts about it not being necessary about it creating blowback and more terrorism are out there. There are some things worth fighting for.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289661317' post='940500']
Old I have spent the past two years reading and researching about what happened with this economy, if I get frustrated at people who havent wanting to talk in simplistic terms about things that are on the side stage at this concert while they completely miss the main show then so be it. This isnt a matter of opinion in this case, the facts are out there on the table for those wanting to do the work. And you'll find the guilty come from both parties.

The same holds true for water boarding, the facts about it not being necessary about it creating blowback and more terrorism are out there.
[/quote]

Dude, you display the same attitude IN EVERY CASE.
And your opinion is that. Opinion. If everything we talked
about here were nothing but FACTS, then there would
be no debate. There would be nothing to talk about.
Just fact stating. That's not the case.

You had no idea that we got info that thwarted an attack.
And when I showed you, you went on to say well probably
could have gotten that info without it.

Anyway, so what you're basically saying is you think you're
an elitist and your attitude will continue to display you as such.

Just make it clear now, so everyone knows where you stand.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289661810' post='940502']
Dude, you display the same attitude IN EVERY CASE.
And your opinion is that. Opinion. If everything we talked
about here were nothing but FACTS, then there would
be no debate. There would be nothing to talk about.
Just fact stating. That's not the case.

You had no idea that we got info that thwarted an attack.
And when I showed you, you went on to say well probably
could have gotten that info without it.

Anyway, so what you're basically saying is you think you're
an elitist and your attitude will continue to you display you as such.

Just make it clear now, so everyone knows where you stand.
[/quote]


If researching this stuff and coming to the opinions that you disagree with based on those facts makes me an elitist then I'm an elitist.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289662160' post='940503']
If researching this stuff and coming to the opinions that you disagree with based on those facts makes me an elitist then I'm an elitist.
[/quote]


So you think you are the only person in this forum that
bases their opinions off facts?

That's hilarious.

Your attitude is what makes you elitist. Not your opinion.

Glad to see you finally admitted it though. Now everyone
here should know where you and Homer stand. Because
Homer already let it be know that he thinks he is an elitist.

I am done. I said all I needed to say on this topic.

Good day.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289662771' post='940506']
So you think you are the only person in this forum that
bases their opinions off facts?

That's hilarious.

Your attitude is what makes you elitist. Not your opinion.

Glad to see you finally admitted it though. Now everyone
here should know where you and Homer stand. Because
Homer already let it be know that he thinks he is an elitist.

I am done. I said all I needed to say on this topic.

Good day.
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBzYSUI5_GM[/media]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289663141' post='940508']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBzYSUI5_GM[/media]
[/quote]


You might as well posted a video of someone farting.
Because all that was to me was some asshole making sound.


[b][size="3"]e·lit·ism[/size][/b] or [b]é·lit·ism[/b]play_w2("E0089600") ([img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/img]-l[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/img][img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/img]t[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/img]z[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif[/img][img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]m, [img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gif[/img]-l[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/img][img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/img]-)
[i]n.[/i] [b]1. [/b]The [b][size="3"]belief[/size][/b] that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
[b]
2. [/b][b]a. [/b]The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
[b]b. [/b]Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

[Jamie_B]

When did research and facts and experts in their field become elitist?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289666943' post='940520']
When did research and facts and experts in their field become elitist?
[/quote]





I am talking about how some of you act in this forum.
You are one of those "some". This forum should be
renamed the Elitists Forum, because you all act like
you run this place and are the only ones worthy of
posting a thought or view here.

Get it now?

Because I do not know how to state it any clearer.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289676606' post='940541']



I am talking about how some of you act in this forum.
You are one of those "some". This forum should be
renamed the Elitists Forum, because you all act like
you run this place and are the only ones worthy of
posting a thought or view here.

Get it now?

Because I do not know how to state it any clearer.
[/quote]


I dont see it that way, the way I see it is people who have spent time with these topics and people who are opinionated with no time spent and then the rage between those. I don't have any issue with people posting here nor do I think I run anything, but I do get worn down discussing things with things that are obviously not true and they just want to scream them despite how not true they are. The Obama is a Socialist argument being #1. The water boarding is necessary #2. These are things and especially in the case of water boarding that are damaging to our national security. If us water boarding is creating more terrorism as expert after expert says it is we shouldnt be doing it, its just creating more of a problem for us down the line. When I get irritated and worn out is at people who dont see that. People who dont see how much Obama isnt a socialist. I would love for other viewpoints to be posted, but I would love for them to be I think this and here is why based on this expert who says this. Not just baseless opinions, because we only frustrate each other with opinions that are not well thought out but merely reactionary to each other.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289683013' post='940556']
I dont see it that way, the way I see it is people who have spent time with these topics and people who are opinionated with no time spent and then the rage between those. I don't have any issue with people posting here nor do I think I run anything, but I do get worn down discussing things with things that are obviously not true and they just want to scream them despite how not true they are. The Obama is a Socialist argument being #1. The water boarding is necessary #2. These are things and especially in the case of water boarding that are damaging to our national security. If us water boarding is creating more terrorism as expert after expert says it is we shouldnt be doing it, its just creating more of a problem for us down the line. When I get irritated and worn out is at people who dont see that. People who dont see how much Obama isnt a socialist. I would love for other viewpoints to be posted, but I would love for them to be I think this and here is why based on this expert who says this. Not just baseless opinions, because we only frustrate each other with opinions that are not well thought out but merely reactionary to each other.
[/quote]



Ha.

Of course you don't see it that way.

And every thread I comment on, I know something about.
I at least read what is posted and form an opinion from that.
Like the Olbermann thread. If I have no clue, I say nothing.

And you THINK you run this place. That is the point.

And if you are so "worn down". Then take a break.
You don't [i]have[/i] to comment on a comment I make.

I said we waterboard our own men. That is a fact is it not?
Of course it is. But you feel compelled to tell me that it is not
the same. Like I don't expect it to be different or don't know that.
But they are waterboarded. There is no disputing that.
And if waterboarding is torture, then we torture our own men.
That is also a fact. And if we torture our own men for training,
then why is it so bad to do a the same thing, but a little worse
to people that want to kill us all? That was the point I was making.
But no. You want to act like only you deal with facts.
And getting info to stop an attack is helping our National Security.

So please spare me the "baseless opinions and rage" bullcrap.

As far as waterboarding goes now, we are not doing it.
So why you are going on like you are is ridiculous.

I will just say I am for almost anything that saves innocent lives.
Because contrary to popular belief, I do value human life.
I just place a higher value on innocents than terrorists.
So sue me.


Whatever though. This is obviously something we are not
going to agree on. That's OK. I don't care. We don't have to agree.
I see your way of thinking as dangerous to our Country too. You are
not exclusive to thinking that about someone that has different views.

My main point NOW is you guys need to show some tact. You guys
need to be more tolerant and try to show someone a different view
instead of snarky condescending diatribe. It benefits no one.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1289687763' post='940570']
Ha.

Of course you don't see it that way.

And every thread I comment on, I know something about.
I at least read what is posted and form an opinion from that.
Like the Olbermann thread. If I have no clue, I say nothing.

And you THINK you run this place. That is the point.

And if you are so "worn down". Then take a break.
You don't [i]have[/i] to comment on a comment I make.

I said we waterboard our own men. That is a fact is it not?
Of course it is. But you feel compelled to tell me that it is not
the same. Like I don't expect it to be different or don't know that.
But they are waterboarded. There is no disputing that.
And if waterboarding is torture, then we torture our own men.
That is also a fact. And if we torture our own men for training,
then why is it so bad to do a the same thing, but a little worse
to people that want to kill us all? That was the point I was making.
But no. You want to act like only you deal with facts.
And getting info to stop an attack is helping our National Security.

So please spare me the "baseless opinions and rage" bullcrap.

As far as waterboarding goes now, we are not doing it.
So why you are going on like you are is ridiculous.

I will just say I am for almost anything that saves innocent lives.
Because contrary to popular belief, I do value human life.
I just place a higher value on innocents than terrorists.
So sue me.


Whatever though. This is obviously something we are not
going to agree on. That's OK. I don't care. We don't have to agree.
I see your way of thinking as dangerous to our Country too. You are
not exclusive to thinking that about someone that has different views.

My main point NOW is you guys need to show some tact. You guys
need to be more tolerant and try to show someone a different view
instead of snarky condescending diatribe. It benefits no one.
[/quote]


No I dont think I run this place, you think I think that, but I dont.

SERE training is not the same thing. This is the kind of comments Im talking about. You know it isnt yet you argue it is. You cant possibly believe that except for the desire to argue. If I'm showing snark its because of comments like this because there is no reasoning with someone who knows the difference but just wants to argue.

My way of thinking is dangerous? Oh good lord. Let me guess you think I'm a socialist too? (this is the augmentative equivalent of "i know you are but what am i" btw)

I swear you want me to turn down the snark, then turn down the absurd.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1289593254' post='940330']
I posted a video showing a host, or anchor, or whatever on msnbc saying that he's Socialist.

That's all I did. I didn't comment, and haven't until now.

Yet this thread immediately turned into bashing me and defending the Socialist. I think that's pretty telling of a lot of things.

Carry on.
[/quote]


Given the way this thread has played out, maybe you could elaborate on your thoughts on the content of the video, rather than leave it hanging. No offense intended.

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1289617544' post='940441']
You know, Backer, when I look back over the past couple of decades and see the shambles that this nation has become, I naturally want to ponder just how the US got turned into a such a mess. You are almost the same age as I am, so it's safe to suggest that you have witnessed, more or less, the same series of events which have gutted this nation domestically. And on the foreign side of events, we have watched our so-called leaders as they become more bellicose and more willing to twist international law into a pretzel to serve the so-called "interests" of this country. This disturbs me and I know it disturbs you, too, as you have expressed some similar dissatisfaction from time to time.

In our lifetime, the United States has morphed from an economically strong nation in which at least some mild form of the "American Dream" was available to the bulk of the population into a crippled shadow of its former self, one in which the bulk of the population has very little to look forward to because the jobs are not there anymore, and thus, the potential for a modicum of upward social mobility has disappeared, too. We have gutted our industries, we have abandoned the family farm, we have left entire communities to rot on the vine while a bunch of Nero-like politicians have fiddled away in D.C. and state legislatures all over this land. We have embroiled ourselves in a series of undeclared "wars" and each of these expressions of military force throughout the world have rested on dubious causes, going all the way back to Vietnam.

That's a rough sketch of the landscape in which we live, but that not what this post is about. This post poses questions about personal responsibility, not only in our duties at citizens, but also as autonomous individuals bearing some moral responsibility for the world around us both in the large and in the small. Just how much of the debris that surrounds us is my fault, or yours? I'm not asking for explicit answers here; the questions are metaphorical. But that doesn't make them any less real or less important. In the deep of the night, when we have trouble sleeping, and we wonder about these kinds of things, just how honest are we being with ourselves?

Speaking for myself only now, I think that some of the responsibility belongs to me. I "own" at least some of the deindustrialization of America, I "own" at least some of the devastating havoc we have wrought in foreign lands. My toolbox is becoming barren and there's blood on my hands. And I say these things not for the purposes of melodrama, I say them because of one important fact: I have often actively fought against many of the very policies which have brought this calamity upon us. In the streets and with my wallet. And yet, I still haven't done enough. How do I know? Look around you.

What is worse, and let me stress this important consideration because I think that, for different reasons, you agree with the general conclusion, we are both of the age in which we are coming to realize that twenty or thirty years from now, when folks are throwing dirt on our graves, we will have left a world less bright, less happy, and less prosperous than we had hoped to leave behind.

Obviously, there is plenty of blame to go around. There isn't a single one of us who couldn't have done just a little bit better at various moments in our lives. But I have got to be honest here, all this personal cry-baby shit has to stop. You start a thread without comment, which forces folks to ponder your motives and to situate it within a reasonable context which conforms to your past experssion of views. Speaking for myself, that's what I did and you know what--I think I hammered that nail right on the head. And I did so in a thoughtful and mildly funny way. Educational, too.

Yet, when you return, all you have to say is that it is "telling" that people bash you. But you don't have the gumption to "tell" anything else. Do you honestly think that people can't see through that bullshit. I mean, really...

So, now, back towards the comments I made early in this post, because I'm going to "tell" you, up front and without any precocious wiggling around, just what I think. I think that a lot of the evil in this world comes from ignorance. I think that not enough people spend enough time performing their duties as citizens. I say that knowing that we all have a set of mundane day-to-day responsibilites which consume the bulk of our time. I'm not immune to this criticism either. It's one of the reasons why I have consistently spoken out about the "pursuit" of knowledge, the "pursuit" of truth, the "pursuit" of a better world to pass down to the young'uns following us.

Worse, there is a certain "practical" immorality which accompanies our ignorance. When people stop investigating too soon it often leads to harm in the real world. When people allow themselves to get "comfortable" in an ideological straitjacket, they often support the kind of actions which have little conformance with reality, but which in effect, create a reality in the world which is much, much less than it could be. Want proof? Once again, look around you.

And even worse, the sort of folks who accept the "easy" answers tend to be the ones who are susceptible to manipulation by those in the know. So they end up tacitly, or even explicitly, endorsing behaviors which are anathema to the common weal. Hence, the "blood on our hands" isn't just metaphorical, it's real. At least it is real if one has to balls to take a close and honest view of the appendages.

But worst of all is this. The "half-assers" tend to become the most dangerous crowd of all. Because they are the ones most willing to resort to a mindless exertion of force or even violence whenever they "feel" their self-interest is threatened. Unable to adequately identify their "interests" in a autonomous and rational way, they will express their "feelings" with a vehemence that can be quite chilling to debate, if not outrightly suppressing that debate itself through the implicit threat of force. One could say that such folks tend to care only about their "feelings" and are in fact blind to the fact that in the act of "protecting" them, they are more than willing to trample all over those who might get in their way. It's one of the reasons why all these wars--with all the damage to, and loss of, innocent lives--become possible. It's one of the reasons why this nation no longer lives up to its moral potential as the first nation in the world which insisted that humans are capable of self-governance. And sadly, its one of the reasons why, when many folks appear to be praising our founding fathers, or Lincoln, or any number of other worthy and notable figures in our history, they are really shitting all over them with a kind of dysentery-like spew of nonsense, bile and venom.

Lastly, and again speaking for myself only, I'm in agreement with the sentiment of Tiger (I think) who said: when is enough, enough? It's time to stand up and be counted. And if that means that some folks, who tend to be clueless to all the harm they are enabling in the world, get their "feelings" hurt in the process, then tough. Don't be a cry-baby. We're only here on this planet for "four-score" if we are lucky, but the "ideas" we embrace and support tend to live much longer and affect the world in much more powerful ways than the transience of our simple existence.

In any case, I think what I have said is "telling."
[/quote]


If I ever meet you old man, I am going to shake your hand, then punch you in the Adam's apple!



[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289625684' post='940459']
I sat and watched a movie tonight about the current economic crises,
[/quote]

Was Michael Moore the director? Jamie, seriously...I agree with many things you say here and there, but you and Old's disagreements have reached the point of lunacy. Just concede that he will not share your view of things and move on. Yes, this "game" isn't a game because human lives are involved, but at the end of the day...be willing to concede that the two of you (and you too, Old) are just exchanging views and will not agree on an issue. It will make the forum cleaner.

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1289627426' post='940463']
but the insults and condescending tone ruin the possibility of true open conversation and it is almost as shameful and paralyzing as partisan politics.....

This whole "I don't agree with you so you must be an idiot" attitude is ruining this forum and on a much larger part this country....

We shit on opposing views....

Trying to fix this country should not be a dick swinging contest...

...and that is what this forum is becoming.
[/quote]

Yep, pretty much. The lack of honest debate is not only represented in our government, but on internet forums every day. It sucks, but they are who we thought they were.

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289628230' post='940466']
The opposing view in this mess is very very very evil and is manipulating people, I dont know how else to say that.

[/quote]
Not necessarily, it just doesn't jibe with your worldview, and that's fine. How do you reconcile to yourself the fact that you work within the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about and yet have these views? And did you really just spell "righteous" "richeous"?



At least that is still endearing!

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1289661317' post='940500']
Old I have spent the past two years reading and researching about what happened with this economy, if I get frustrated at people who havent wanting to talk in simplistic terms about things that are on the side stage at this concert while they completely miss the main show then so be it. This isnt a matter of opinion in this case, the facts are out there on the table for those wanting to do the work. And you'll find the guilty come from both parties.

The same holds true for water boarding, the facts about it not being necessary about it creating blowback and more terrorism are out there. There are some things worth fighting for.
[/quote]

People are entitled to their opinions, no matter how moronic or ill-informed you as an individual might find them. Perhaps you could be more tolerant and threads such as these could evolve into serious debates rather than partisan bullshit (and that includes you, Oldschooler). AS Old says, and I agree, ATTACK THE POST NOT THE POSTER.

I want this forum to remain lively, especially in light of the fact that the Bengals fucking suck. I don't want to feel like I have to stop coming here or reading posts because its the same old shit every time.